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Granted, D&D has its problems, and it's good for the game to evolve to address those problems and maintain its appeal, but I think WOTC could change its tactics so that new editions and the subsequent plethora of supplements don't seem quite so...profit-motivated. When the latest GURPS edition was released, for example, they immediately made all the rules changes available in a single file for free download on their website, so buying the new edition was merely an option for those who wanted a spiffy new book, and older editions retained their value. They did this with previous editions too. Now that's customer appreciation. Hint, Hint, WOTC...
And WotC has had a free SRD online since 2000, containing nearly all the core rules of D&D (and including later additions such as psionics, divine rules, and the Unearthed Arcana variants). That was a risky move for them back then. And one of the first things they confirmed about 4e is that there will continue to be a free SRD and an OGL. As for supplements, SJG doesn't release the contents of their ever-growing library for free, either; in fact, they don't even release the full or nearly-full set of basic rules for free, do they?
If the beef is with backward compatibility, that's a strong reason to consider staying away from a new edition, if you're really satisfied with the current rules and have lots of gaming material for it. But backward compatibility is a double-edged sword.
Steve, chill. You don't know what kind of gamer I am, and your anger is getting the best of you. I wasn't making any comment on WotC's past public relations prior to the 4e announcement. What I was responding to was this:
I believe the run-up to 4e will be very well-documented in Dragon. There will almost certainly be ads for 4e placed in FLGS's everywhere. If they don't already, I imagine it won't take much longer for anyone who might be interested in 4e to know that it's coming. And I expect a bunch of articles on WotC's Web site providing insight and sneak peeks into new feats, class abilities, monsters, and other 4e-isms. You're criticizing WotC for not having all these things in place, when they've just started and have nine months to go yet.
Was WotC actively obfuscating the upcoming 3e announcement prior to Gen Con 1999? No, probably not. But then, nobody (or at least, hardly anybody) was asking them about a putative 3e back then, so they didn't have to, very unlike the situation prior to this year's Gen Con.
1) I dont think they had to go so far in denial. They overstated it. Between this and cancelling Dungeon/Dragon they've lost a great amount of trust.
2) I think you are right about more information coming out in Dragon online and in the Wizards Presents.
From Chris Perkins Blog "In 4th Edition, all characters have a selection of at-will, per-encounter, and per-day resources. The exact mechanical execution of this base concept will be disclosed in the coming months on D&D Insider and the Wizards Presents: Races and Classes preview book, so no spoilers here!"
I just hope they dont keep these vague design and devlopment articles and keep the real info in the Presents books. Im leary of buying just a preview book.
3) I still think they've done a very poor job of this. The presentation was terrible. That combined with their current posts and desing and development articles inspires little confidence. They act like dynamic dungeons is a brand new concept. I think they should wait now until they are ready to explain things. I dont think vague posts or articles are doing anything but annoying players.
Occam, I've never been able or even desirous to argue with sense. You do make a lot of it. My earlier reply to you may have been a bit more snarky than intended. Consider me chilled.
I may be remembering the ushering in of 3rd Edition with rose-colored glasses. I guess the surpise back then was a welcome one whereas this one was already tainted by what a resounding majority consider WotC's betrayal of the gaming world by ending the print run of Dungeon and Dragon magazines. Add to that the fact that many, if not most, of the gaming world (I have no facts to back that up, only what I've seen and read) were mainly satisfied with the current edition of the game and would have gladly shelled out for an official errata book (ironically, we're actually getting one, but it seems like a wasted investment at this point), rather than a whole new rules system.
I still hold to my opinion about WotC's blundering and semi-retarded attempts at PR and selling this new version to us. They've screwed up so badly that everything from here on out needs to be top flight stuff or the gaming community will only get surlier and dig in their heels with regard to their personal commitment as to how they will respond to WotC's new products.
The fact that a guy like me can use the new SRD that'll come out with the new rules system does make me a little less hostile since it means I can still write for the new rules set and not have to fork out a bunch of money. However, my own gaming preference is going to be very hard to sway away from the current rules. Given the quality of products that WotC has been producing over the past year (or should I say lack of quality), it doesn't give me much confidence that 4E will suddenly be vastly better.
Edit: Now that I've had my say, I'm going to shut the hell up and focus on writing stuff for the current edition of the game.
I still hold to my opinion about WotC's blundering and semi-retarded attempts at PR and selling this new version to us. They've screwed up so badly that everything from here on out needs to be top flight stuff or the gaming community will only get surlier and dig in their heels with regard to their personal commitment as to how they will respond to WotC's new products.
Keeping all these secrets, "shocking" us with surprises, finishing off long standing institutions (Dragon, Dungeon), making big promises but showing us little of value, it's almost maddening how poor their PR really is. The secrets are alienating, the end of Dragon & Dungeon is infuriating, and the promises sound hallow.
I for one would love to see a new system that fulfills all the promises they have stated. I'm not really worried about the price of the new core rules (nor did I buy all kinds of supplemental material - I basically used Dungeon as my resource). But my main complaint is that they don't seem at all in contact with their core consumers.
I'm a good lurker and I have yet to hear anyone say, "I'm glad Dragon and Dungeon are digital rather than print. I'm glad they aren't telling us what their thoughts are in case my expectations get raised and then the rules change. I'm glad I'm feeling less and less like a participant of D&D and more like a consumer."
Paizo is a good example of the opposite. They listen to their customers and work hard at giving us what we want. They keep us informed of decisions, even when they are not ready to release everything. I've seen evidence of product changes due to customer input. They stay in contact. (Okay, maybe I am a fanboy, but there is a reason for it).
I'm excited about 4e, but not about WotC. Therefore, I'll buy my core books and stick with Paizo.
The major differences between the 2E --> 3E switch and this one is what causes the most concern for me.
#1: 2E was broken. New rules were constantly introduced in 2E to top the previous supplement. 3.5 hasn't come close to the powerups that occured in 2e (kits anyone?)
#2: We have had only 4 years of version 3.5. That's it! Only 7 years of 3.x up to now. We had 11 years of 2E (9 when the announcement came).
#3 (and the biggest one for me): Adventures.
Thanks to WotC and 3rd party publishers, especially Paizo, Necromancer Games, and Goodman Games, we have literally hundreds of adventures. I want to run many of them, and I don't intend to convert them to a new edition before I do so.
#4: Class Options. There are so many class options for 3.5 that I haven't even gotten to try yet that I feel like I've bought something (actually many somethings) I'll never use (if I go 4e).
So what I have decided to do is this. I'll buy the three 4e core books. I'll port the ideas I like from 4e into my 3.5 game and leave it at that. I will not join the D&D Insider (though I will certainly use it while it's free).
And I'll take a break! This will give me a chance to catch up on the 3.5 third party products I don't have yet, and then just save some money.
I'll start collecting books again when 5e comes out - if the hobby is still alive then.
#3 (and the biggest one for me): Adventures.
Thanks to WotC and 3rd party publishers, especially Paizo, Necromancer Games, and Goodman Games, we have literally hundreds of adventures. I want to run many of them, and I don't intend to convert them to a new edition before I do so.
For me it's not just adventure's but settings too. I've got five settings on my shelf that I want to run games in, and about three or four more I plan on picking up. There are a lot of options out there for 3rd, and many of those options are worth looking at.
3rd edition got me back into gaming after a five year hiatus (not as long as some people I know, but long enough). Now my bookshelves are filling up with 3rd edition products. After 4th comes out, 3rd edition products will continue to fill my bookshelves. I'm not going to rush to switch over, but I will eventually pick up 4th.I won't lie and say that certain aspects of 3.5 aren't frustrating to me. Most of those issues have been tweaked for my games, and have been tweaked in some of the games I play in. The biggest complaint I've had is combat eating up so much time. I understand that this is a fantasy adventure game, and I understand there has to be many monsters to fight. I, personally, don't plan many combat encounters for the adventures I build (typically at least one each session, though I think the average would be 1 1/2). In fact I'd rather have social encounters, puzzles and traps than combat, and I typically do. I prefer emphasize the story elements and character background and development, and my players, most of them, like this aspect.
While 4th sounds as if it will streamline some of the aspects of combat (maybe) it also sounds as if it will be emphasizing combat more. I'm going to pick up the core books, and I'll probably pick up Paizo offerings for 4th (I'm already behind on this with their current products), but that may very well be it. Instead I'm going to gleefully, and whole heartedly finish picking up all the 3.5 material I've been wanting.
Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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That's actually an interesting thought ... I wonder if any WOTC folks do in fact read these boards? I'll bet they do, now that I think about it. I'll bet they read the Wizards boards and the Paizo boards quite a bit right now to see what people are saying about the new edition.
Or ... maybe not.
If they do, I bet their reaction is similar to that of the Lord High Muckety Mucks here at my company - jealousy. Instead of looking at what they see with an open mind, they immediately attack it as it differs from what they're used to seeing, and seems to actually work. Which makes them look bad in the process.
It's all about CYA. Corporate America at its worst.
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I'll start collecting books again when 5e comes out - if the hobby is still alive then.
(lol)I skipped 2e. like that.Ironically Dungeon magazine is what got me interested in coming back. I joke that if I skip 4 e., then I'll be skipping all the even editions.
Mostly played Palladium in between editions; if I can go 11 years like that, I can wait the 5 or so years before 5ed.|
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Consider me chilled.
Cool. :)
I may be remembering the ushering in of 3rd Edition with rose-colored glasses. I guess the surpise back then was a welcome one whereas this one was already tainted by what a resounding majority consider WotC's betrayal of the gaming world by ending the print run of Dungeon and Dragon magazines. Add to that the fact that many, if not most, of the gaming world (I have no facts to back that up, only what I've seen and read) were mainly satisfied with the current edition of the game and would have gladly shelled out for an official errata book (ironically, we're actually getting one, but it seems like a wasted investment at this point), rather than a whole new rules system.
WotC definitely has a harder case to make for 4e, given the quality of the 3e rules set and the amount of third-party support compared to 2e. As many have said, it's a perfectly legitimate option to stick with 3e, which mostly works, and spend years catching up on all the good material they still haven't had a chance to play with. WotC has to work at overcoming some of that to sell 4e.
And pulling the licenses of Dragon and Dungeon, and ending their print runs, was certainly a blow, especially for the folks on these boards. In retrospect, I can see why they did it, and I expect it'll probably work to WotC's long-term benefit, but it's a painful change.
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You know, I still have to say I DON'T understand why they did this and I don't necessarily think it will turn out to have been a good idea. Keep in mind I have worked in the magazine publishing industry for almost 15 years, so I know first hand that the "people just are not reading magazines" or "it's not financially feasible to publish a magazine" arguments simply do not hold water.
As I've said before in other threads, I really think not having Dragon to sort of herald the impending release of 4E and give sneak peeks will prove to be a big negative to WOTC that they apparently, amazingly in fact, did not foresee.
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Keeping all these secrets, "shocking" us with surprises, finishing off long standing institutions (Dragon, Dungeon), making big promises but showing us little of value, it's almost maddening how poor their PR really is. The secrets are alienating, the end of Dragon & Dungeon is infuriating, and the promises sound hallow.
...
I'm a good lurker and I have yet to hear anyone say, "I'm glad Dragon and Dungeon are digital rather than print. I'm glad they aren't telling us what their thoughts are in case my expectations get raised and then the rules change. I'm glad I'm feeling less and less like a participant of D&D and more like a consumer."
Paizo is a good example of the opposite. They listen to their customers and work hard at giving us what we want. They keep us informed of decisions, even when they are not ready to release everything. I've seen evidence of product changes due to customer input. They stay in contact. (Okay, maybe I am a fanboy, but there is a reason for it).
OK, this is going to come off a lot harsher than it's meant, so hold the flames at least until you see where I'm going....
Paizo surprised us with the Dragon/Dungeon print cancellation just as much as WotC, dropping not a single hint when people asked about follow-up Adventure Paths and sequel Dragon articles and the like, despite knowing about it something like a year in advance. They, and the freelance writers they've employed, kept Pathfinder and the GameMastery modules secret until they had several months of product to announce in advance, and were probably already in the midst of brainstorming the second Pathfinder AP. Did they have reasons for not telling us about these things while they were still making fundamental decisions about them? Of course, very good reasons, and reasons no different than WotC's in withholding information until it's ready for release.
Were there "Design & Development" articles discussing whether goblins or orcs, giants or demons would be the main foes in Rise of the Runelords? Was there a poll on what to name Golarion? No, the Paizo folks trusted their creative talents, their familiarity with the rules, and their understanding of their customer base to make those decisions on their own. These aren't participatory decisions on the part of the community, except in the most indirect way. Certainly, they listen to their customers, and that input plays into later decisions, but if you think that isn't happening at WotC, then you're not paying attention to what they're doing. That doesn't guarantee that you'll like what they end up with, but they are trying to make things that their customers will enjoy. That is, after all, how they get to keep working in the gaming business.
A whole lot of the criticism of WotC gets wrapped up in a bunch of anti-corporate resentment, treating the WotC employees as faceless minions of the Hasbro profit-seeking world-dominating agenda. Read the D&D designers' and developers' blogs, read their posts on EN World and the WotC boards. You may not (and probably won't) agree with all their ideas, but it's absolutely clear that they are all gamers, at least as much as any of their customers. They want to make a game that they themselves will love to play, and that other gamers will love to play. They're also sharp, well-educated, and put a lot of thought into what makes games fun, and what makes D&D special. If you feel the need to criticize their work, then criticize them as human beings with interests and lifestyles probably quite similar to your own, people you'd probably game with if you met them under other circumstances, and not as evil, borg-like caricatures of real people.
Let me make clear here, Whimsy, that I don't know what your specific views on the situation are, and that I'm stating general reactions to a lot of the recent, and IMO unnecessarily vehement and unproductive, criticism. I don't mean this as a direct attack on you or anyone else in particular.
As for Paizo, they're a great bunch, undoubtedly. Their stewardship of Dragon and, especially IMO, Dungeon has been outstanding, and there's every reason to expect that same level of quality (or higher) in all their forthcoming products. A big part of that is their regular presence on these boards. In the past, WotC has done a terrible job of using Internet-based community tools as opportunities for direct contact with their customers, and they've suffered for it. Hopefully they've learned, and there's some evidence that they're starting to rectify that. But they are making an effort to keep their customers in the loop with respect to 4e development. Some people are acting as if 4e were already here, sprung from the mind of WotC fully formed. It's not. We've still got nearly a year for WotC to get more specific in their previews, and for you to decide if you're interested. That's about as customer-based a process as I could expect from a company.
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As I've said before in other threads, I really think not having Dragon to sort of herald the impending release of 4E and give sneak peeks will prove to be a big negative to WOTC that they apparently, amazingly in fact, did not foresee.
How many people that read Dragon don't visit WotC's Web site, at least occasionally? I would bet that WotC has a pretty accurate answer to that question.
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That's actually an interesting thought ... I wonder if any WOTC folks do in fact read these boards? I'll bet they do, now that I think about it. I'll bet they read the Wizards boards and the Paizo boards quite a bit right now to see what people are saying about the new edition.
Or ... maybe not.
If they do, I bet their reaction is similar to that of the Lord High Muckety Mucks here at my company - jealousy. Instead of looking at what they see with an open mind, they immediately attack it as it differs from what they're used to seeing, and seems to actually work. Which makes them look bad in the process.
It's all about CYA. Corporate America at its worst.
I would bet you're wrong about that. Really, read the WotC folks' blogs, read their posts on the WotC boards, read their posts at EN World. Your characterization of them is totally at odds with what you get from their own words.
I have spent hundreds of Dollars on 3.5. But I will be buying 4E. I barely ever get to play between people schedules not to mention rehab.
But I will be finished right around the release date and then i will start a new game and nothing will stop me. Mwah ha ha ha!
OK, this is going to come off a lot harsher than it's meant, so hold the flames at least until you see where I'm going....
I didn't see anything harsh in your response, so no flames to follow. :) I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me and I sometimes will change my mind if convinced.
My challenge with WotC is not so much their gaming practices. I see no Borg. I know most of the WotC staff are gamers (some of them previously Paizo employees). As I said, I'm actually looking forward to 4.0. My challenge is with WotC's Public Relations.
I actually work in marketing - nothing on the level of Wizards, but I feel I know a little something about it. I also know that a large company with a skilled marketing staff doesn't necessarily make the right decisions. And WotC seems to be doing everything all wrong.
I understand the excitement of "secrets", time clocks, and all that, but I think they are heading the wrong direction with it and creating a sense of alienation. This can be sensed in the attacks against them in the various forums.
I understand that Paizo has ideas and information they aren't sharing with us. But you rarely hear Paizo saying something like, "We've got something big coming up in the Pathfinder world that's going to change everything and make all past adventures obsolete, but we can't tell you about that now. Keep playing the old setting and we'll talk a little bit about it as we go." And then following up with vague glimpses into the "big change". Admittedly the Pathfinder world is fairly new, but I don't see the current crew doing anything like that.
Regarding the Dragon/Dungeon announcement: Paizo had something to look forward to immediately following the announcement. WotC said, "Just wait. We've got a lot of big changes we can't tell you about." They also said, "We think people are looking more to a digital model." They say this despite that digital books as big business have failed and bookstores are bigger than ever. Most gamers know intuitively this is not true for themselves and yet WotC tried to fly in the face of this fact.
Wizards doesn't come across as catering to their audiences. Most people would say Ebberon is WotC's most supported setting, although there is actually a lot of materials for Forgotten Realms and even Greyhawk (i.e. Ruins of Greyhawk and so forth). I would argue that is is because WotC is trying too hard to plug a setting that isn't as popular as the others. They only seem to give it more support. I would do the opposite. Start with the endearing settings and try to introduce the new setting in small doses once you've proved you can create good product. Based on the reaction with WotC products over the last year, I'm not sure they've done this.
Paizo has done the opposite. They have proven their quality and now they are doing better than expected on a brand new world that is pure fantasy (no robots as a core setting device). They seem to understand that people are hesitant to switch campaign settings and are starting small and generic so that DMs can move adventures into any setting. They are not trying to show that their brand spanking new setting with trains and robots is the newest best thing, when they know that will alienate much of their consumer base. They also says things on this board like, "We've thought about what you are saying and we are going to make changes in that direction."
This comes across as respectful. And I think it shows. It shows on the forums and the fanboy feelings for Paizo and the negative reaction to WotC.
This is not to say "Paizo, good, WotC, bad." I have respect for the designers at WotC (they do a better job at designing than I could). I like Eberron (although I find some of the supplements a little odd). In fact, I would probably be defending WotC right now except they are so poor in relating to gamers.
Gamers are unlike other demographics. They represent an intelligent opinionated subculture using burnable income to play games and usually have an intense interest in how those games are played. I understand that WotC is trying to expand the gamer base. But for the not so hardcore gamers (i.e. those who don't obsess about the game, who don't follow forums, and who may not even be aware of 4e yet) I think all the talk about 3e, 3.5e. 4.0, DI, Gleemax (I'm still not sure what the hell that is), etc. is just going to confuse which will push the non-hardcore gamers away rather than bring them in. And without a Dragon magazine to skim through at a bookstore, how are non-hardcore gamers going to learn and get excited about the upcoming edition? Instead they will find the new 4e books when they come out, along with a bunch of obsolete material.
While I think WotC managed to rebuild the gamer base with 3e, I think they are losing it for 4e. Not because 4e is a bad move, but because their PR is so poor. Of course, I love this game and I hope I'm wrong and I hope Sebastian gets his pie.
How many people that read Dragon don't visit WotC's Web site, at least occasionally? I would bet that WotC has a pretty accurate answer to that question.
That is a tough question to answer. Even for WoTC.
I can speak for my group of 9ish people though... 100% of the Dragon readers don't even touch the WoTC website. And just so we can know I am not pulling word games, we do (did) have Dragon readers. ;-)
I haven't heard one person I know claim they like online material over print, and the switch to DI has alienated everyone in my group.
I don't claim to have a typical group, nor that it is any indication of what the customer base is like.
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I didn't see anything harsh in your response, so no flames to follow. :)
OK, this is going to come off a lot harsher than it's meant, so hold the flames at least until you see where I'm going....
Whew, thanks!
While I think WotC managed to rebuild the gamer base with 3e, I think they are losing it for 4e. Not because 4e is a bad move, but because their PR is so poor. Of course, I love this game and I hope I'm wrong and I hope Sebastian gets his pie.
Good points, well presented, and you could be right. I, too, hope you aren't, though. :) I'd rather have a new game that's so mind-blowingly good I won't mind converting all the stuff I've already done for 3e. We'll see what happens. <crossed fingers>
OK, this is going to come off a lot harsher than it's meant, so hold the flames at least until you see where I'm going....I didn't see anything harsh in your response, so no flames to follow. :) I have no problem with someone disagreeing with me and I sometimes will change my mind if convinced.
My challenge with WotC is not so much their gaming practices. I see no Borg. I know most of the WotC staff are gamers (some of them previously Paizo employees). As I said, I'm actually looking forward to 4.0. My challenge is with WotC's Public Relations.
I actually work in marketing - nothing on the level of Wizards, but I feel I know a little something about it. I also know that a large company with a skilled marketing staff doesn't necessarily make the right decisions. And WotC seems to be doing everything all wrong.
I understand the excitement of "secrets", time clocks, and all that, but I think they are heading the wrong direction with it and creating a sense of alienation. This can be sensed in the attacks against them in the various forums.
I understand that Paizo has ideas and information they aren't sharing with us. But you rarely hear Paizo saying something like, "We've got something big coming up in the Pathfinder world that's going to change everything and make all past adventures obsolete, but we can't tell you about that now. Keep playing the old setting and we'll talk a little bit about it as we go." And then following up with vague glimpses into the "big change". Admittedly the Pathfinder world is fairly new, but I don't see the current crew doing anything like that.
Regarding the Dragon/Dungeon announcement: Paizo had something to look forward to immediately following the announcement. WotC said, "Just wait. We've got a lot of big changes we can't tell you about." They also said, "We think people are looking more to a digital model." They say this despite that digital books as big business have failed and bookstores are bigger than ever. Most...
I completely agree. I have spent the last 10 years of my career as a prodcut manager and haven't seen many established product mutilated as much as the Dungeons and Dragons brand has been. A successful update of a product relies heavily on market research to determine what features the product should preserve and what features should be changed. (WOTC likes to say evolve which is inaccurate and a disgusting word in my profession as it implies that the product has an organic mind of its own, that it simply wills itseld into a new thing. This term is often used when the product management team "wins - it") It also relies heavily on the message that marketing presents. perception is everything when a new product or version thereof is released. It gets people in the door.
WOTC has failed miserably in both regards and will suffer accordingly. They are relying on a mix of print and electronic publishing for a traditonally pen and paper game that relies on imagination as its engine. There is no amount of market intelligence that presents this message. At the same time WOTC marketing consists of an announcement at GenCon where they send a mixed message that basically equates to "The king is dead, Long live the King." In conjunction with the announcement they have put up a cryptic countdown clock on their primary internet portal. Wo and behold post announcement some details are realeased. Many piss off the old guard, most just leave people confused, none tell a tale of a product that is an improvement over the old. This is the worst marketing I have ever seen. I have approved many marketing campaigns in my time and never has one been so cryptic and confusing. Definately a turn off.
WOTC has failed miserably in both regards and will suffer accordingly.
I laugh at you and point. For all the (censored) and moaning, everyone will buy 4e. Face it. You are suckers.
JD Wiker has some interesting things to say about 4e:
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JD Wiker has some interesting things to say about 4e:
Tha was a very interesting read. I think he has some definite "spot on" points. I will consider buying at least the 4E core books. However, I've increasingly been thinking of just sticking with 3.5 for the next 10 years or so, then maybe converting to a new addition once 5E comes out.
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Tha was a very interesting read. I think he has some definite "spot on" points. I will consider buying at least the 4E core books. However, I've increasingly been thinking of just sticking with 3.5 for the next 10 years or so, then maybe converting to a new addition once 5E comes out.JD Wiker has some interesting things to say about 4e:
It just depends on who I'm gaming with. I'll buy a core set if I get into a game, but I'd like to stick with the 3.5 stuff and actually use a good deal of it before I switch. I have a feeling I'll be able to drum up other old timers that feel this way. Hell, there's still people playing 2e. I don't mean to disparage them in any way, shape, or form. More power to them.
JD Wiker has some interesting things to say about 4e:
Interesting read.
But there is one fundamental flaw in the writing:
I know that, when people discuss 4th Edition, they are going to say things like "WotC did this and WotC did that," and not particularly realize that Wizards is not an entity that makes decisions. It is an entity that enforces the decisions of the individuals comprising the organization.
That isn't entirely true.
WOTC has failed miserably in both regards and will suffer accordingly.I laugh at you and point. For all the (censored) and moaning, everyone will buy 4e. Face it. You are suckers.
For the most part this guy is right. There are a lot of rabid fanboys who will gripe and complain then run out and buy the books anyway.
Me, I actually value "use" over the next new shiny thing and right now 3.5 works for me just fine. I have enough 3.5 material to last me a good long time provided I can still find 3.5 players in the next few years. I'll take a gander at the 4E SRD when it's released but yeah I've already got all the D&D stuff I'll need. So far 4E seems to be change for changes sake, which can be kinda cool in itself, but it doesn't mean that I have to support it.
(lol)we'll have to start 3.5 meetups.
Definitely. In fact the more I think about it people don't have to invest too much in 4E to learn the rules as long as the SRD is available. I'm fairly certain some publisher will have a nicely formatted 4E SRD out there either in hyper-linked HTML or PDF form.
I also see alot of 3.5/4E hybrids out there by the end of next year, the part that I'm a little concerned with is if there are more house rules made formal in the new edition. I'm talking little things like no multi-classing penalties, no confirming of critical hits, etc. Those would be a little disappointing. In fact the more I think about 4E the more I'm thinking about customizing my own game with already available materials (Unearthed Arcana, Green Ronin's True Sorcery, Arcana Evolved / Unearthed). I might as well since 3.5 is pretty much done as far as product goes.
Once 4e is out I will start threads on various forums that relate to porting over what 4.0 rules will work best in 3.5.
Some of the ideas sound neat, such as wizards that never run out of spells, but other things don't sound so good to me, such as the party "roles". That can stay in 4.0.
I'd rather have a new game that's so mind-blowingly good I won't mind converting all the stuff I've already done for 3e. We'll see what happens. <crossed fingers>
I'll be crossing my fingers too. 'Cause I would love nothing more that to see a brand spankin' new awesome game that beats all other editions into the ground. I think 3.0 managed that, and my hope of all hopes is that 4.0 does the same.
One trend I've noticed with all the people who feel 4.0 will automatically be a success is that they predict exactly what happened with 3.0. 3e had its doubters, then 3e came out and there came a resurgence of gamers. This assumption that the path of 4e will be the same seems to be covered across the forums and JD Wiker's blog and anywhere there is a general discussion about 4e.
I don't think this is a good assumption. We are not talking about a failing company with a product that has disenfranchised many players (ie TSR and D&D before 3.0). I remember when 3.0 came out - I felt like this was finally a game I could start playing again.
This time isn't the same. We already have the excitement of 3e and most people are (for the most part) happy with the system. With the current negative feelings of 4e already (before we've really seen one game mechanic) the game is really going to have to prove itself. I do see a potential split between 3ers and 4ers. The 3ers won't want to convert because they have years and years of game materials available to them in a mostly decent system that most gamers are familiar with. I think the 4ers will be willing to play 3e if that's what their game group or DM desires. I just don't see 4e taking off like 3e did, unless 4e just blows everybody's socks off and spoils everybody so they absolutely can't go back to that clunky 3e system.
Which is probably what WotC is banking on and what I'm crossing my fingers for. But I don't think we should assume everyone will convert to 4.0. It could be a disaster like New Coke. Big companies do make mistakes. Hasbro/WotC is no exception.
The major differences between the 2E --> 3E switch and this one is what causes the most concern for me.
#1: 2E was broken. New rules were constantly introduced in 2E to top the previous supplement. 3.5 hasn't come close to the powerups that occured in 2e (kits anyone?)
#2: We have had only 4 years of version 3.5. That's it! Only 7 years of 3.x up to now. We had 11 years of 2E (9 when the announcement came).
#3 (and the biggest one for me): Adventures.
Thanks to WotC and 3rd party publishers, especially Paizo, Necromancer Games, and Goodman Games, we have literally hundreds of adventures. I want to run many of them, and I don't intend to convert them to a new edition before I do so.#4: Class Options. There are so many class options for 3.5 that I haven't even gotten to try yet that I feel like I've bought something (actually many somethings) I'll never use (if I go 4e).
So what I have decided to do is this. I'll buy the three 4e core books. I'll port the ideas I like from 4e into my 3.5 game and leave it at that. I will not join the D&D Insider (though I will certainly use it while it's free).
And I'll take a break! This will give me a chance to catch up on the 3.5 third party products I don't have yet, and then just save some money.
I'll start collecting books again when 5e comes out - if the hobby is still alive then.
Davemage,
You summed up my feelings on 4e almost exactly. During 2e days I literally had a 200 page manual of house rules, I really felt 2e was broken in many ways. For 3e I have 1 page of house rules and I have tons and tons of quality adventures for 3.x from many sources.However, I don't think I'll even be buying the 4e core rules. I'll just read the SRD and port over the good ideas to my 3.5 games.
In fact the more I think about 4E the more I'm thinking about customizing my own game with already available materials (Unearthed Arcana, Green Ronin's True Sorcery, Arcana Evolved / Unearthed).
Can I interest you in the nice, shiny game system over here?
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I think that all the people who post or start a thread in the "I will nver change to 4e." genre should be required to check in every six months after the version is released to recommit or whatever action they have taken up to that time. Keep us informed on the decision they made because the new edition was announced before it was released and they saw what it really was they were making a decision on. And then as the edition begins to get played across the community and so forth.
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Great idea for another thread!
I'll tell ya, though. I pretty much skipped 2e. That was a loooong time. I betchabetchabetcha I can skip 4e. if I put my mind to it. I gotta lotta 3e. crap...and it won't take 2 or 3 years max before they're churning out a 4.5e. errata game version. I won't miss nothin.
I plan to buy the three Core books for 4.0. I do not plan to buy the endless additional books that will inevitably follow. Based on the mechanics of the 4.0 system as contained in the three core books, I'll base my decision on how much and when to use the system.
As irritated with WoTC as I am, and as much as I dislike having only 3-4 years for the last two 'editions' of d&d, I have some major issues with the cumbersome nature of the 3.5 game. If 4.0 improves the mechanics significantly, then I'll make the transition. If I don't buy the 3 core 4.0 books, then I'll never know, hence I'll buy them. My players are also getting to the point where they just buy endless new 3.5 books with information that I don't have, and I won't purchase; and 4.0 will give me an easy way of tossing out all the ridiculous crap that my moronic players are coming up with:)
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I agree with your sentiments. In defence of your players, they have to look for any edge they can to survive. You simply can't hold it against them. Or maybe you can, I don't know.
I just want to say that if I want to, I can resist the temptation very easily to buy into 4e. Every few days, I get another reason like, "guess what. Succubi are devils now. Take your Fiendish Codex and make it into a doorstop if you plan on running with 4e. Sucker."
What's my next morale boost?
I agree Heath, it is perplexing, particularly when one of my WoTC favorites, Bruce Cordell, is one of the ones writing the 4.0 Monster Manual. I wonder what he is exactly doing and why.
My games are to a large extent tailored to the players in question. My "Killer GM runs Age of Worms" is somewhat of an extreme example, but when I've got players that don't try to come up with munchkin characters, I design the bad guys to do the same and balance out the PC's. Always, the game is fair, be it Muchkin' or be it low magic & money. In many ways, it's easier to GM a campaign with low money and low magic where everyone's pretty much on the same level. My preferred type of game setting has a 'Medieval England' feel to it, and usually doesn't involve ridiculous amounts of magic and wealth. I recognize that players respond to repeated death by trying to make use of what they can to survive. The problem is, they use Munchkin'ing instead of smart play, teamwork, and preparation. I have infinite respect for the latter; and I attempt to SQUASH the former, whenever possible, to the extent that the rules fairly allow me to:)
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Well, there is that--the arms war between DM and PC,...I guess it's hard when you don't want your character to be the only stupid dummy standing there holding a pocket knife in a gunfight.
I think that in a vacuum, this one is a chicken or egg discussion.
It's easy to fall into munchkinism when you have a brand new "WOTC approved" splatbook full of new feats that the dungeonmaster hasn't had enough time to grasp, much less close loopholes...
The whole 3.0/3.5 experience has been a b1tchslap on my geek greed.
The same sense of ridiculous product bloat that I experienced at the back end of 2.0, with more "The Complete <insert name here>" the you could swing a stick at- if they're so definative and complete, then why are there so many acres of pointless stuff in them all. I know it's to sell product, but we live in the Tivo age, and my wallet is king and more extraneous fluff is NOT what I need.
It took four editions, but I've learnt my lesson- the three basic books for me please- everything else I'll wing it. I'm not buying interminable products of limited use or value just for a few bells and whistles and some shiny artwork- Wizards will have to really wow me to consider getting any 4.0 beyond what is vital. And when it comes to 4.0, I'm expecting a slim, sleek and easy to manage edition with no dry exposition and nary a spot of fat on it's frame. Anything else and I'll be taking my business elsewhere.
At this stage, I'm considering just chucking it all in and checking out Castles and Crusades.
I probably will keep up the minis, since it's one area where improvement in quality is noticable and value is still pretty decent.
Here endeth the rant.
Indeed. It is unfortunate what WoTC is doing with some aspects of the game. While I hold out hope for improving the mechanics of the game and reducing the dependence on magic items during play, I don't understand the need to change some of the elements of the game, like the one you and others have mentioned (regarding the Fiendish Codex & the succubus). I hope WoTC will concentrate their efforts in tying up loose ends and not merely reinventing the wheel, as they seem to be doing at least in some areas.
Additionally, I hope this new "desperately needed upgrade edition" will last longer than its two predecessors. 1st edition went from 77-89 (12 years), 2nd edition (crap though it was) from 90-00 (10 years), and the last two editions for about 3 1/2 to 4 years each. Not cutting it folks.
Going from 1e to 2e was easy. The rules changed slightly, but really, if you knew how to play 1e, 2e was intuitively pretty much the same. (Using 1e adventures with 2e was pretty easy, although them monster stats changed drastically in some cases, which made it more difficult - giants and dragons in particular.)
So, in essence, you had 23 years (1977-2000) of virtually the same game. 3e was a major rules change that made combat even more the central focus of the rules. Miniatures, attacks of opportunity, move and standard actions, feats, etc. required learning a whole new way of playing D&D. Now, only 7 (8) years after we had to learn a whole new combat ruleset, we're being asked to learn ANOTHER whole new combat ruleset (or so it seems from the early previews).
If so, no thanks.
WOTC has failed miserably in both regards and will suffer accordingly.I laugh at you and point. For all the (censored) and moaning, everyone will buy 4e. Face it. You are suckers.
Okay, here is our true troll. you get a trolly pop.
now, Dead serious.
I WILL NOT BUY 4th ED. why? because of the wotc trend.
what trend is that?
1. bad marketing. The whole, "3rd is broken! you need 4th, but keep buying 3rd until 4th", is just wrong. Especialy the implied, Designers know what is best- players and D.M.s are morons, attitude.
2. screw the fans, we are doing it our way. Changes, changes, and changes- but WTF- if it's not broke don't fix it. Anybody remember the 3.0 psionics book, AND the author interview on the Wotc website...
(*quote from memory, not exact)
"Writing psionics would be too hard, so I just copied stuff from wizards and the magic section", Bruce robert cordel admitting that he plagurized the PHB rather than do his job, which surprisingly was to write a psionics book! I still laugh when I see posts decrying psionics... it's like, dumbaXe he said it was wizards and magic! HE SAID HE COPIED STUFF, it's not new. Then came the admition that rather than make a legitimate psionics book for 3.5, they simply tried to fix the mess BRC made... because they were stuck with it. hearing this one does a double take at the idea of a 4th ed cause 3rd needs to be overhauled.
3. book filler, repeated content that fills pages while new content is actually a hand full of paragraphs. Skill tricks are a nice fix for high level rogues... and yes, complete scoundrel deserved it's own book. I love the tome of battle. thing is there a many 3.x books that don't do anything of value, and have no real content. guess which ones.
4. Easier to play? did anyone else notice that dragons are being mentioned as having thousands of hit points- are we going to need slide rules to play? oh, no. somebody forgot an AoO, versus, the cleric scored a critical hit... who gets healed? JEEBUZ!
5. I hated the whole "grapple thing" on the youtube video. watching them "search" for the grapple rules made me want to scream. The prop books had never been opened, you could tell that by the way the pages didn't turn. you could tell the actors didn't even know how to read the book...
since the chapters where flipped through at random, even stoping at the end of the character creation- when your looking for a combat rule!
RETARDS!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I know that, when people discuss 4th Edition, they are going to say things like "WotC did this and WotC did that," and not particularly realize that Wizards is not an entity that makes decisions. It is an entity that enforces the decisions of the individuals comprising the organization.That isn't entirely true.
OMG! WotC has achieved sentience and is now capable of making decisions!!! Get an axe. Hide Sarah Connor!
AHHHHHHH!!!
OMG! WotC has achieved sentience and is now capable of making decisions!!! Get an axe. Hide Sarah
It is an entity that enforces the decisions of the individuals comprising the organization.That isn't entirely true.
Geez! $3@B@$Schun, Seabassnun, See he gets none, whatever.
what they are both getting at is that SOMEBODY is making descisions and as a whole those decisons take on an attitude...just as a D&d book with good trend in the "fluff" AND the "crunch" can be said to have a "flavor". do you get it? or do I hate to send you off to the malhavoc press (monte cook) message boards so you can troll there?
get it, or go away.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Geez! $3@B@$Schun, Seabassnun, See he gets none, whatever.
what they are both getting at is that SOMEBODY is making descisions and as a whole those decisons take on an attitude...just as a D&d book with good trend in the "fluff" AND the "crunch" can be said to have a "flavor". do you get it? or do I hate to send you off to the malhavoc press (monte cook) message boards so you can troll there?
get it, or go away.
You lost me d00d. Can you explain again, but type slowly. I don't read so good.
My comic shop manager is a friend of mine.
He didn't know why D&d suddenly stopped selling.
I had to tell him... 4th ed is going to come out.
he had no idea.
He could recall selling me the tee shirt, the book bag, and a small mountain of 3.0 D&d books... but now, he had nothing for 4th ed to sell or advertise. HE HAS NOTHING TO ADVERTISE 4TH ED. He didn't even know it was going to come out, it isn't even in the wotc product forecast.
he got conspiratorial with me over the end of the dungeon and dragon magazines. He said Wotc had a little chat with the dealers that was summed up as, "we really like how you've drummed up business for us, we like how the kids go to you. That's why they are going to come to us for now on."
translation, "you did all the hard work of selling our products. now we are just gonna take your customers."
anybody notice how the book prices seem to jump by 5$ ever so often?
seems to me that those marketing response cards are the source of that problem. I bet that if everybody started to claim on those forms that they only had enough money to buy $20 a month of anything and were only interested in D&d...
books wouldn't be jumping to $40 per each next month.
this is all wrong. I can't see the product. I can't make an informed decision about it. My friend did not even know about it...
so yeah. we are being screwed.
A comic shop? They still exist? Wow.
Seriously, we've got less than a handful comic shops in a booming city of 1.5m + (Las Vegas).
Thats a tough gig.
A comic shop? They still exist? Wow.
Seriously, we've got less than a handful comic shops in a booming city of 1.5m + (Las Vegas).
Thats a tough gig.
I'm a comic artist, and I can tell you that the movement is a wholesale migration to the bookstore and the Graphic Novel- longer shelf life, better bang for your buck and less likelyhood of it getting relegated to the quarter bin.
Back on the thread, I fully accept that D&D is an organic and complex system that requires constant tweaking to meet player expectation. What I do not accept is that each time we get a more spare and sleeker edition (and I remember just how much of a cobbled together, expansive mess second Ed. ended up being), it should end up an as a publishing sprawl. It's happened on second and third, I'm not going end up roped into it for fourth edition.
If D&D is in such bad financial shape that it needs to be propped up by subsidies in the form of a sourcebook tithe, then WotC needs to take a long hard look at itself. I fully expect them to miss the point again and use the D&D Insider as their new cash cow, tugging on their servers udders until they're raw in leiu of any substantive printed product. I miss my gaming group in Europe, but there's no way I'd suggest that they'd sign up for D&DI for the virtual table- $600 for the privilage of playing with my friends is more then my conscience could take.
The lousy state of communication regarding 4th Ed I put down to simple incompotence, tempered with greed. I was deeply insulted and not a little pissed by being blindsided just so WotC can try and shift more second rate product. If they're looking to revitalize the hobby, then alienating the long term gamers, the guys who organise the events, run the games and contribute the material isn't the way to do it. I feel for the smaller retailers, who order WotC's suggested range of sourcebooks, and are now stuck with them (my comic store is still lumbered with 3.0 material and has dropped off from ordering new stock as a matter of course).
Oh, and I resent being referred to as a "meatgamer"- I've paid my dues for the past 23 years, and WotC can pucker up and kiss my Fenian arse.
Wow- just reread that post- they really got under my skin more then I thought.
Well, I am enjoying this thread immensely; hehe codifies a lot of our thoughts and feelings and has just enough sarcasm to keep up interest :) i just can't wrap my head around the online thing; seems like the dont want people to get around a table and play anymore; that is my strongest objection.