Just Say No to 4.0


4th Edition

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If you don't do it now, it will never stop. Every 5 years or so they'll give it a little tweak. And most of it will just be the same thing with a little buff to shine it up.

Your money talks.


Hmmm...

Or we could just say no to you.

I understand that you like 3.5 and you don't want to have tons of obsolete books and have to buy all new ones. But change can be good. Every time a new edition has come out, people have been hesitant. But in the end, the new edition was loved more than the old one.

Now, on the other hand, this is Wizards of the Coast we're dealing with. They did a good job on 3.x D&D. However, in recent years they've shown a decline. However, I'm having the faith in them to at least buy all three core books if nothing else and try the new edition out.

Because sometimes you just need to accept change.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Yay! I'm so happy someone started this thread. I was going to do so, but didn't quite get around to it. So, let me just hop on with a suggestion:

Let's make this thread the "I'll never buy 4e and I really mean it thread"

Here's how it works: You, the outraged fan, post about how you will never ever ever switch to 4e. I want to help you keep that commitment, so I will add some peer pressure. If you post on this thread saying that you will never ever ever switch, and subsequently do switch, I will remind you of this fact in a smug way while saying "I told you so."

Because most of you will switch. I'll even tell you how it will happen:

First, WotC will release previews. They'll change some things you didn't particularly like about 3.5. You'll think to yourself, "ooh, that's a good idea." They'll tell you about some new cool features of the game. You'll think "huh. That's pretty cool. Maybe I'll just buy the phb."

Then they'll start putting up art and showing off the new look. You'll complain that it's too pokemon-esque. You'll say that it makes the game look childish. But deep down, you'll feel your inner fanboy reacting. You'll start thinking (secretly) that it's pretty cool.

Finally, swept up in the excitement of the release, you'll go out and purchase the 4e core rules. You'll complain about some minor things ("half-orcs are broken! I hate how the mechanics are intuitive and work well!"), but you'll be very happy about a few others.

Once the first non-core book is released, you'll think, "what the heck, the core rules were good. I'll give this supplement a try." And you'll like that too. And before you know it, you'll be playing 4e.

And somewhere, out in the ether, will be this post on this thread, presaging your eventual caving in.

And I will be wiping off the crumbs of I-told-you-so pie.

Liberty's Edge

Amen brother.

The Exchange

Well OF COURSE there will be a new edition every few years. That should go without saying. It's like Magic Cards. You KNOW they're not going to stop doing expansions. If they ever do, the game will stagnate and die. Same with this.

Honestly, I can't imagine needing too many more 3.5 supplements. They've pretty much covered everything. So, it's time to start over. They pay their bills by making books. They've made a ton of 3.5 books, so they're starting to run out of good material to put into another one. Time to re-start the cycle.

You can either join in and buy the new edition, or not. It won't stop WotC either way. And rest assured, if you DO buy the new edition, there WILL be another one after that someday. If it ever DOES stop, then you need to be worried about the continued existence of the game.

Dark Archive

Gurubabaramalamaswami wrote:

If you don't do it now, it will never stop. Every 5 years or so they'll give it a little tweak. And most of it will just be the same thing with a little buff to shine it up.

Your money talks.

Say no? Are you insane? I'm not going to be some caveman still playing clunky old 3.5...

Seriously though, I may be in the minority here but I am actually excited about 4th edition, I like what I have read so far...


MaxSlasher26 wrote:

Hmmm...

Or we could just say no to you.

I understand that you like 3.5 and you don't want to have tons of obsolete books and have to buy all new ones. But change can be good. Every time a new edition has come out, people have been hesitant. But in the end, the new edition was loved more than the old one.

Now, on the other hand, this is Wizards of the Coast we're dealing with. They did a good job on 3.x D&D. However, in recent years they've shown a decline. However, I'm having the faith in them to at least buy all three core books if nothing else and try the new edition out.

Because sometimes you just need to accept change.

I didn't say that I'm pro 3.5 and nothing else. I've played since the D&D red book. I've done 1st edition, 2nd edition, skipped 3.0, and am doing 3.5 now.

My sole point is that if you keep buying in they will never stop "revising" the game to get your dollars. And how much of each revision has actually been new and not a rehash of old stuff?

They've never even finished converting 3.0 to 3.5.

Liberty's Edge

Meh....wait and see what happens.
Who knows...it could totally suck, making this argument useless.


Sebastian wrote:

Yay! I'm so happy someone started this thread. I was going to do so, but didn't quite get around to it. So, let me just hop on with a suggestion:

Let's make this thread the "I'll never buy 4e and I really mean it thread"

Here's how it works: You, the outraged fan, post about how you will never ever ever switch to 4e. I want to help you keep that commitment, so I will add some peer pressure. If you post on this thread saying that you will never ever ever switch, and subsequently do switch, I will remind you of this fact in a smug way while saying "I told you so."

Because most of you will switch. I'll even tell you how it will happen:

First, WotC will release previews. They'll change some things you didn't particularly like about 3.5. You'll think to yourself, "ooh, that's a good idea." They'll tell you about some new cool features of the game. You'll think "huh. That's pretty cool. Maybe I'll just buy the phb."

Then they'll start putting up art and showing off the new look. You'll complain that it's too pokemon-esque. You'll say that it makes the game look childish. But deep down, you'll feel your inner fanboy reacting. You'll start thinking (secretly) that it's pretty cool.

Finally, swept up in the excitement of the release, you'll go out and purchase the 4e core rules. You'll complain about some minor things ("half-orcs are broken! I hate how the mechanics are intuitive and work well!"), but you'll be very happy about a few others.

Once the first non-core book is released, you'll think, "what the heck, the core rules were good. I'll give this supplement a try." And you'll like that too. And before you know it, you'll be playing 4e.

And somewhere, out in the ether, will be this post on this thread, presaging your eventual caving in.

And I will be wiping off the crumbs of I-told-you-so pie.

Thank you for your snarky sarcasm. Reread my original post and my actual point.


Heathansson wrote:
Meh....wait and see what happens.

Is there ANY thread you haven't posted on? :)

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Gurubabaramalamaswami wrote:


Thank you for your snarky sarcasm. Reread my original post and my actual point.

Maybe you could explain it, I'm a little slow. It seems like the title of the thread is "Just say no to 4.0" and that your original post advocated not paying for 4.0. I guess maybe you were suggesting that people shoplift the 4e books instead of purchasing them, but I took it to mean you were taking a stand against 4e. And, as I mentioned in my post, I want to help you make that stand.

I want to help everyone make that stand!

Edit: Aw, who am I kidding. I want to smugly smile when you declare that you are making the stand but don't go through with it.

Scarab Sages

Gurubabaramalamaswami wrote:
Reread my original post and my actual point.

What was your point? "Don't buy more WotC books and maybe they will stop publishing"? That'll show them.

Scarab Sages

Sebastian wrote:
I want to help everyone make that stand!

No.

You want to see a lot of crow eating. ;-)

Scarab Sages

I think my problem is that I don't feel like I have played 3.5 out yet. With the original AD&D, I played for years and then with 2d edition it was possible to ignore most of the rules changes and continue using original AD&D. As a result, I had characters and campaigns that lasted decades and involved tremendous fun.

All that changed with 3.0. To retrofit characters from AD&D to work in the new system was virtually impossible. I accepted that and worked all my old characters into 'concept NPCs' (all flavor, no stats) and built new games. 3.5 fixed most of what was broken in 3.0 (although I still don't know why anyone would play a half-elf) and finally I have built campaigns worthy of the original AD&D.

Going to another new rule-set right now seems premature. I would prefer it if they would simply ret-con in their new 20 level race rules (fixing the biggest missed opportunity of 3.5) and give us another couple of years before they dump 4.0 on us. After all, the well is not dry for new rules and game play options with 3.5.

Consider:
20 level race optional rules (one book for each race perhaps? that could add up)
Grittier adventures in a low magic milieu (Heroes of Horror, and Battle could have another installment)
Theme books to explore Magical Beasts in greater details (like Draconomicon, Libris Mortis, and Lords of Madness)
Setting books (Arabian Nights, Harry Potter's world--modern with hidden magic, Ancient Rome, Spelljammer, etc., the list is endless)
Converted 3.5 versions of the 'Mature Line' of books
and more.

Just another couple of years of 3.5 goodness would be great.
As it is, I will probably hold my party back from converting so that I can get that anyway.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Moff Rimmer wrote:
Sebastian wrote:
I want to help everyone make that stand!

No.

You want to see a lot of crow eating. ;-)

QFT. I even edited my post before I saw yours because I realized it wasn't fully accurate.


Moff Rimmer wrote:
Gurubabaramalamaswami wrote:
Reread my original post and my actual point.
What was your point? "Don't buy more WotC books and maybe they will stop publishing"? That'll show them.

My point is that they aren't being given any incentive to do anything other than rehash what they've already done.

Is there really nowhere else they can go with the current rules?

Maybe they shouldn't have let go of all those designers back in the 3.0 to 3.5 days.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Gurubabaramalamaswami wrote:


Maybe they shouldn't have let go of all those designers back in the 3.0 to 3.5 days.

Yeah, in retrospect, given that those were the only designers on the planet Earth, it was a mistake to let them go. It's not as if new designers could have been hired.


I'd like to just say "Ni!"


Sebastian wrote:
Gurubabaramalamaswami wrote:


Maybe they shouldn't have let go of all those designers back in the 3.0 to 3.5 days.
Yeah, in retrospect, given that those were the only designers on the planet Earth, it was a mistake to let them go. It's not as if new designers could have been hired.

Gosh, you're just all fired up over this, aren't you?

Guess we'll see in the long run whether they sink or swim.

Scarab Sages

Matthew Bromund wrote:
Going to another new rule-set right now seems premature. I would prefer it if they would simply ret-con in their new 20 level race rules (fixing the biggest missed opportunity of 3.5) and give us another couple of years before they dump 4.0 on us. After all, the well is not dry for new rules and game play options with 3.5.

It is premature -- it isn't coming out for quite a few months yet.

"The well is not dry".

Maybe that is the point. I have been compiling a list of all the new feats introduced in Dragon Magazine alone and am currently somewhere around 150 different feats and I haven't even hit half of them yet. How much is enough? Maybe there is too much. I love 3.5, but how many prestige classes before you have too many? Spells? Feats? It is bordering on the insane trying to keep up with it all.

Maybe the well isn't dry yet, but it also might be time to wipe the slate clean and start over. If not, then maybe you can come up with another 300 feats and make 3.5 complete.

And I don't think that a couple more years would truly make any difference. It is probably the right time for WotC to make this change. And people will gripe just as much no matter when it happened. In two years people will have gotten even more material that they would feel was just a waste. It doesn't really matter.

The Exchange

Gurubabaramalamaswami wrote:


They've never even finished converting 3.0 to 3.5.

This point got lost in the wash, but I felt it was worth revisiting.

Do you have anything specific in mind when you say that? Is there some 3.0 concept they haven't recovered in 3.5? I'd be interested in some examples, because I can't really think of anything.


I'll agree with a lot of that. No more new feats needed. We've got plenty of prestige classes.

But are they really done exploring Eberron before having to convert it all to a new edition?

Sigh. I kind of wished they'd given us a Planescape hardcover. Or even (heaven help me) a Spelljammer hardcover.


Sebastian wrote:
Because most of you will switch.

As much as it pains me to say it, I agree with Sebastian on this. However, that gives rise to an inquiry. Sebastian, if everyone is going to convert anyway, why the call to arms to buy? Aren't you being a bit redundant?

Oh...and I like pie.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

CourtFool wrote:

Sebastian, if everyone is going to convert anyway, why the call to arms to buy? Aren't you being a bit redundant?

I'm an angry troll and like to stir up trouble. ;-D

Liberty's Edge

Just humor him, say 4e. is great. Say you'll eat his pie or whatever.
It's the best way to win. It's how Houston whupped Santa Anna.


Sebastian wrote:
I'm an angry troll and like to stir up trouble. ;-D

Stop that before I start liking you!

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Spoiler:
Heathansson wrote:

Just humor him, say 4e. is great. Say you'll eat his pie or whatever.

It's the best way to win. It's how Houston whupped Santa Anna.

Hey! How about a spoiler tag on that one.

Sheesh.


Gurubabaramalamaswami wrote:


Is there ANY thread you haven't posted on? :)

He makes an excellent point, Sebastion. ;)

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

I’ve Got Reach wrote:
Gurubabaramalamaswami wrote:


Is there ANY thread you haven't posted on? :)
He makes an excellent point, Sebastion. ;)

About Heathannson? I couldn't agree more. That guy never shuts up. He has more posts on these boards the every other poster put together.


Back on topic!

Just say 'Yes' to another game system. Come to the darkside. Together we can rule the universe!

Liberty's Edge

Sebastian wrote:
I’ve Got Reach wrote:
Gurubabaramalamaswami wrote:


Is there ANY thread you haven't posted on? :)
He makes an excellent point, Sebastion. ;)
About Heathannson? I couldn't agree more. That guy never shuts up. He has more posts on these boards the every other poster put together.

You'll surpass me by May of 2008.

Contributor

Folks, we're all very peeved at one big crappy announcement after another coming out of WotC. I won't say whether I will never play 4.0 or not. What I CAN tell you is this: I have hundreds of dollars invested in v.3.5 and have no plans of abandoning all of that material that I spent a lot of mine and my wife's hard-earned dough on until I feel like I've fully gotten my money's worth. That could take years...

What will most likely happen is that one of my players (who doesn't have a DM's investment of material to consider) will purchase the v.4.0 books as they hit the bookshelves, he or she will bring them to the game, me and my players will thumb through them, we'll talk about the changes, and I may even invite the player to run his/her own v.4.0 game in my home on an alternate day from when I run my own v.3.5 game. However, I reiterate, I will not switch over from the game that I run until I've received my money's worth for all of the products I already purchased.

I did the same thing when v.3.0 came out and had the good fortune of watching a fellow gamer run his game and even learned it when it still had a lot of errata coming out to correct the all too prevalent mistakes. By the time I was ready to run my own v.3.0 game, I had all the corrections, a player's knowledge of the game, and a ready-made group to play the game. It had probably been out for a year by that time. I had all of the Core Rule books by that time and even a few supplements and adventures to run. In the meantime I had been able to run the v.2.0 material I had purchased and felt like I had gotten the bang from my bucks that I hoped for.

My suggestion is that you, my fellow gamers, take the same approach. If it turns out the 4th edition looks cool, switch over. But do it in your own time, when you're ready, and after getting your money out of the products you have already invested in.

Scarab Sages

Once again, I find myself *shudder* thinking along the same lines as Sebastian (except about the pie thing. I'm not a big fan of pie). This whole thing is really just a "let's wait and see" situation.

Will I at least buy the 4E PHB? Probably, just to see what its all about.

Does that mean I will immediately convert? No, and I probably will keep with 3.5 for a few years. My group is happy with it, and has enoguh stuff to keep going for about 10 years or so. Hell, we started AoW before it had even finished, and we're just about half-way through that.

Edit: Wow, Steve Greer says it even better right above.


Gurubabaramalamaswami wrote:

If you don't do it now, it will never stop. Every 5 years or so they'll give it a little tweak. And most of it will just be the same thing with a little buff to shine it up.

Your money talks.

I'm not sure I'm won over by this idea yet, but if you think about the core of what you said, it boils down to this:

"If we all quit buying, there won't be any more D&D books."

What a releif . . .


Why not try one of these shinny systems over here?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Sebastian wrote:

<snip>Because most of you will switch. I'll even tell you how it will happen:

First, WotC will release previews. They'll change some things you didn't particularly like about 3.5. You'll think to yourself, "ooh, that's a good idea." They'll tell you about some new cool features of the game. You'll think "huh. That's pretty cool. Maybe I'll just buy the phb."

Then they'll start putting up art and showing off the new look. You'll complain that it's too pokemon-esque. You'll say that it makes the game look childish. But deep down, you'll feel your inner fanboy reacting. You'll start thinking (secretly) that it's pretty cool.

Finally, swept up in the excitement of the release, you'll go out and purchase the 4e core rules. You'll complain about some minor things ("half-orcs are broken! I hate how the mechanics are intuitive and work well!"), but you'll be very happy about a few others.

Once the first non-core book is released, you'll think, "what the heck, the core rules were good. I'll give this supplement a try." And you'll like that too. And before you know it, you'll be playing 4e.

And somewhere, out in the ether, will be this post on this thread, presaging your eventual caving in.<snip>

You are absolutely right and it makes me even more irratated. Although I must say, I wont switch until Paizo does. The first 4e Pathfinder will probably win me over. I hate that I am such a Paizo-wh*re...

Dark Archive Contributor

DitheringFool wrote:
I hate that I am such a Paizo-wh*re...

That has such a negative connotation to it... why not call yourself a Paizo-friend? :)


KnightErrantJR wrote:


I'm not sure I'm won over by this idea yet, but if you think about the core of what you said, it boils down to this:

"If we all quit buying, there won't be any more D&D books."

What a releif . . .

Well, if you take the approach of "I have so much stuff I don´t need anything new for the next years" to extreme, then why should you even care if D&D swims or sinks? And if D&D would sink because no one is buying it, why on Oerth should any company buy the licence if the game failed once due to non-existent revenue? "Once bitten, twice shy."

I´m also on the "wait and see" side of things. But if WotC is to continue their business, they have to sell new editions from time to time. I´m as upset about their crappy communications as the next guy, but if the product is ok, I can live with that. It´s waay better the way communications are with paizo, so at present, my gaming money goes here.

Stefan


Mike McArtor wrote:
That has such a negative connotation to it... why not call yourself a Paizo-friend? :)

It is not as instigating.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Sebastian wrote:
Here's how it works: You, the outraged fan, post about how you will never ever ever switch to 4e. I want to help you keep that commitment, so I will add some peer pressure. If you post on this thread saying that you will never ever ever switch, and subsequently do switch, I will remind you of this fact in a smug way while saying "I told you so."

Tell you what Sebastian, since you are so determined to relish in 4th edition, I'll make you the same deal. You're saying you will switch, and should you subsequently not do so or revert from the hogwash of 4th, I will remind you in just as smug a way (should that even be possible).

Sebastian wrote:
Because most of you will switch.

I will not, but admittedly that's simply because I only play odd editions. (1st edition is #1!)

Tata.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Mike McArtor wrote:
That has such a negative connotation to it... why not call yourself a Paizo-friend? :)

Good point, I never feel dirty paying for all the wonderful products...and you always call me the next day (or at least email).

Contributor

DitheringFool wrote:
Mike McArtor wrote:
That has such a negative connotation to it... why not call yourself a Paizo-friend? :)
Good point, I never feel dirty paying for all the wonderful products...and you always call me the next day (or at least email).

LOL. Love the levity, man. "Call the next day..." That's great!


If were suppose to support 4th edition does that mean I shouldn’t buy any 3.5 products for the next nine months seeing as some of the game designers at WOTC dislike it so much what would be the point??? Help, I’m confused.

James Wyatt -- And it is a rise, let me tell you. I'm so excited about Fourth Edition I can barely contain myself. Running the Delve in our booth yesterday was awkward—I saw so many of the things I have grown to dislike about 3E come into play. Oh, the poor rogue's useless against all these plants and elementals. Oh, the poor dwarf didn't confirm his crit. Oh, look at all the people forgetting about attacks of opportunity (especially at reach) and getting pummeled as a result. I can't say too much about it, but you can be sure it's not just grapple that got an overhaul.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Majuba wrote:


Tell you what Sebastian, since you are so determined to relish in 4th edition, I'll make you the same deal. You're saying you will switch, and should you subsequently not do so or revert from the hogwash of 4th, I will remind you in just as smug a way (should that even be possible).

That's because a key ingredient of smugness is being right.

But sure, feel free to mock me when I revert back to 3e. I would also appreciate it if you would push my wheelchair over by the window so that I can have the sun shining in my face and bring some extra mashed peas, because clearly I will have suffered some sort of debilitating brain injury.

Liberty's Edge

Here's the win win: if 4e. is great, you eat your pie, and play 4e., and have a good time.
If 4e. blows, Sebastian will be very very angry. Pull up a chair and enjoy the verbal eviscerations.
See? Win Win. ;)

Liberty's Edge

Smugness and shamen frohe play no part in this; I'm almost never smug.


DitheringFool wrote:
Mike McArtor wrote:
That has such a negative connotation to it... why not call yourself a Paizo-friend? :)
Good point, I never feel dirty paying for all the wonderful products...and you always call me the next day (or at least email).

Wait, if you are buying doesn't that make you the Paizo-"john?"


CourtFool wrote:
As much as it pains me to say it, I agree with Sebastian on this. However, that gives rise to an inquiry. Sebastian, if everyone is going to convert anyway, why the call to arms to buy? Aren't you being a bit redundant?

Sebastian suffers from the same problem as all laywers: they tell you something you don't want to hear, you try to deny it, but in the end they end up either changing your mind or altering the fundamental laws of the universe so that they've always been right. I know, I'm marrying one.

And yeah, I'll buy the core books and give it a shot. I just hope it's worth sticking with.

Dark Archive Bella Sara Charter Superscriber

Karelzarath wrote:

Sebastian suffers from the same problem as all laywers: they tell you something you don't want to hear, you try to deny it, but in the end they end up either changing your mind or altering the fundamental laws of the universe so that they've always been right. I know, I'm marrying one.

Being married to a lawyer myself, you have my deepest sympathies. ;-D


Sebastian wrote:
I would also appreciate it if you would push my wheelchair over by the window so that I can have the sun shining in my face and bring some extra mashed peas, because clearly I will have suffered some sort of debilitating brain injury.

A second one? :p

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