Well, I am enjoying this thread immensely; hehe codifies a lot of our thoughts and feelings and has just enough sarcasm to keep up interest :) i just can't wrap my head around the online thing; seems like the dont want people to get around a table and play anymore; that is my strongest objection.
Seconded! A great thread, indeed.
And you're dead right about the online thing- I keep getting the vibe of barely restrained contempt, like they'd rather be doing something else then dealing with our outmoded and imaginative asses. Maybe we're just too much work- ya don't see Monopoly or Scrabble enthusiasts requiring this much hand holding :)That said, it's a vibe from the Corporate gestalt itself, not the folks who work there.
As I've said before in other threads, I really think not having Dragon to sort of herald the impending release of 4E and give sneak peeks will prove to be a big negative to WOTC that they apparently, amazingly in fact, did not foresee.
That's the one that's had me perplexed from the beginning. Even if they pulled the license from Paizo, not continuing to at least publish Dragon, and exploit its direct communication link to a group of dedicated players just plain baffles me. The lost promotional potential as pertains to 4E is incalculable.
ya don't see Monopoly or Scrabble enthusiasts requiring this much hand holding :)
That said, it's a vibe from the Corporate gestalt itself, not the folks who work there.
I don't know, have you seen the new commercials for Monopoly? "How do you plan Monopoly?" "I play with quick dice and no cash."
Apparently Hasbro has a trend across the boards to cater to those that want to play a game, but don't really want to do any work to play said game.
ya don't see Monopoly or Scrabble enthusiasts requiring this much hand holding :)
That said, it's a vibe from the Corporate gestalt itself, not the folks who work there.I don't know, have you seen the new commercials for Monopoly? "How do you plan Monopoly?" "I play with quick dice and no cash."
Apparently Hasbro has a trend across the boards to cater to those that want to play a game, but don't really want to do any work to play said game.
So it's a case of play the game, without PLAYING the game?
That's just depressing...
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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ya don't see Monopoly or Scrabble enthusiasts requiring this much hand holding :)
That said, it's a vibe from the Corporate gestalt itself, not the folks who work there.I don't know, have you seen the new commercials for Monopoly? "How do you plan Monopoly?" "I play with quick dice and no cash."
Apparently Hasbro has a trend across the boards to cater to those that want to play a game, but don't really want to do any work to play said game.
C'mon, surely we can agree that Monopoly is well overdue for a second edition. Plus, it has far too many campaign settings.
It was Edna Krabopoly that was my last straw.
Actually, on the topic of revising board games, I played Sorry with my niece a year or so ago, and the game was some princess themed nonesense. However, in addition to the basic game play, which has very little strategic decision making, they had added on a deck of cards to allow for more player decisions and strategic actions. It was a real improvement on the original game. I think that a lot of classic board games could be improved in a similar matter.
Particularly Monopoly, which makes the Great Wheel look like mad tech.
I hereby proclaim, in writing, that I will never, EVER buy D&D 4th Edition until it comes out in May 2008. Not one day beforehand, honestly. I absolutely refuse to support WotC until all three D&D books are released. I'll be playing 3.5E until the dying days...of the current WotC 3.5E publishing schedule.
To reiterate: I will absolutely buy everything released for D&D 4th Edition. Err, I mean, I WON'T buy. Probably.
:)
I'm looking forward to 4E. I like everything about it that I've read to date. Today I swung through Barnes and Noble just to check out the Star Wars Saga Edition (said to be a preview of 4E) and a lot of the rule changes seem intelligent and exciting. Nor do I think the folks at WotC are robotic corporate shills. In the Gencon videos they appear almost painfully authentic in their nerdiness. They seem to me like people who love the game and sincerely want to make it better. Ultimately, I think 4E is going to look a lot more like 3.5 than we think -- I'm getting the feeling that the biggest change isn't in the fundamentals, but how they're applied.
That's the one that's had me perplexed from the beginning. Even if they pulled the license from Paizo, not continuing to at least publish Dragon, and exploit its direct communication link to a group of dedicated players just plain baffles me. The lost promotional potential as pertains to 4E is incalculable.
As I've said before in other threads, I really think not having Dragon to sort of herald the impending release of 4E and give sneak peeks will prove to be a big negative to WOTC that they apparently, amazingly in fact, did not foresee.
Oh, but Dragon is still around! Just online, not in print, at a much higher price!
Grrr. >:(
-The Gneech
PS: Someday, the bitterness may pass. But the wound will never truly heal.
OK, I'll say "no" to D&D 4th edition...here it goes...
"NO!"
Was that forceful enough? I hope that helps...
I think it is unwise to reject 4.0 out of hand folks. At the very least, I'd take a wait-and-see approach. There's a lot of fluff and watered down material that has come out for 3.5 in the last two years that doesn't deserve such undying loyalty. While I applaud everyones affinity for 3.5, I don't count fanatical loyalty as always being a good thing, notwithstanding that WoTC/Hasbro is clearly bleeding gamers out of every red cent they can.
While many feel that 4.0 invalidates their purchases of the last two years, it also gives you a chance to start from scratch. In the meanwhile, enjoy dragging your 30+ 3.5 collection of fluff books around with you to your weekly game, and trying to find a needed rule in a pinch.
That is a pretty closed minded view Allen, especially coming from some one who claims that 4th Edition shouldn't be rejected out of hand.
Not only will 4th Edition likely follow the same trend of far too many "fluff" books as you put it, but people don't have to "drag your 30+ 3.5 collection of fluff books around with you to your weekly game, and trying to find a needed rule in a pinch."
For one, consider yourself blessed if you actually have a weekly game.
Next, by their very definition, fluff books don't have needed rules.
And finally, if the host doesn't have all of the 30+ fluff books, odds are s/he has enough to reduce your "dragged" supplies to only three or four.
While fanatical loyalty isn't always good, neither is blind faith.
That is a pretty closed minded view Allen, especially coming from some one who claims that 4th Edition shouldn't be rejected out of hand.
Not only will 4th Edition likely follow the same trend of far too many "fluff" books as you put it, but people don't have to "drag your 30+ 3.5 collection of fluff books around with you to your weekly game, and trying to find a needed rule in a pinch."
For one, consider yourself blessed if you actually have a weekly game.
Next, by their very definition, fluff books don't have needed rules.
And finally, if the host doesn't have all of the 30+ fluff books, odds are s/he has enough to reduce your "dragged" supplies to only three or four.While fanatical loyalty isn't always good, neither is blind faith.
I agree with you absolutely that 4.0 will follow the same trend that 3.5 has followed. I have posted as much on other threads. "Fluff" books have about 10% worth while material, the rest isn't worth much to me. WoTC has taken many noteworthy elements & needed improvements and "spread them out" into different books (in my opinion) rather than condensing them into a few (which I believe they should).
I certainly have little faith in WoTC/Hasbro. I think we are more in agreement than we are divided on this issue Disenchanter.
So... if money talks and you want to stop the trend of making new stuff, which is okay because you already have the old stuff collected, why not just stick with the old stuff? You could play for the rest of your days with it, I'm sure, save a lot of money and not be annoyed by 4th.
I'm pretty sure Wizards isn't trying to bleed the life out of anyone, but I guarantee if they never changed with the times, D&D would be gone and you'd have to stick with your old stuff anyway, because there's no money in staying loyal to an aging market at the expense of drawing in more potential customers because your product got too convoluted for the new breed of gamer.
They have to keep turning a profit, and there's only so much stuff you can really produce crunch-wise before you start to lose people. So you start fresh in a way that will hopefully get a bunch of new people, and that bunch of new people grew up with the Matrix, manga and World of Warcraft.
Of course Paizo produces better stuff, but what percent of Paizo's sales covers the market as a whole? The hardcore market is a hardcore market, not a mainstream market, and just as Paris Hilton exists as a celebrity but probably everyone on these boards doesn't give a damn, we're still the minority and all those other people have more money than us.
Besides, it's a game that's in your head. You can do whatever the heck you want, and you've already got everything you need to do it with.
I think we are more in agreement than we are divided on this issue Disenchanter.
I am aware of that Allen. I didn't mean to suggest you and I were divided.
But your posts send mixed emotions. (And I do understand, at best the hobby has trying times ahead.)
You appear to be preaching "All hail WoTC!" And at the same time vilifying them.
I was only trying to align your messages.
Okay, here is our true troll. you get a trolly pop.
(waving to all the kiddies)
The Great Booby Prize of 3.5 is ... the Rules Compendium.
Of course, I have no idea WHAT rules are in the thing, but hey, if I can trim my GM book roster down to 5 books, I'm happy.
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As D&D players we have been criticizing 3.5 since it hit the shelves, same with every edition that came before. If the game designers have taken those criticisms and done something about it, can we actually complain about it? I think the only way you will prevent them from releasing new editions is to not levy any complaints about the current edition at all. But then, what would we have to talk about?
Why does the idea of a new edition scare and enrage people so much? Why can a company not take steps to remain profitable? Why can they not improve their product? And why oh why is it so hard to believe that they can do both simultaneously?
I don't get it.
Tam
As D&D players we have been criticizing 3.5 since it hit the shelves, same with every edition that came before. If the game designers have taken those criticisms and done something about it, can we actually complain about it? I think the only way you will prevent them from releasing new editions is to not levy any complaints about the current edition at all. But then, what would we have to talk about?
Why does the idea of a new edition scare and enrage people so much? Why can a company not take steps to remain profitable? Why can they not improve their product? And why oh why is it so hard to believe that they can do both simultaneously?
I don't get it.
Tam
As a general rule, people often react with hostility to the unfamiliar, especially when it seemingly comes 'out of nowhere'. Consumer vehicle manufacturers do this (new 'edition') annually, with each new years' model. Now and again an entirely new vehicle is introduced. People cherish thier hobbies, often resenting intrusions or changes to those hobbies. And in the consumerism, short-attention-span-theatre mindset (aka short-term gain, no really long-term profit-production planning) that largely dominates 'modern' business practice, this does not seem likely to change any time soon. The almighty dollar will make its voice felt soon enough - check back a year after release (or less) and see how well the brand is doing then. (As pointed out by other posters.)
I like the idea of 'wiping the slate clean' (again), while resenting that in what seems like too short a time said slate is being wiped.
All that having been said, as with so many other games, whether or not the new iteration is an avenue to venture into remains to be seen, based on the first few ventures (PHB, DMG, MM) into 4th edition.
I don't know about the rest of you, but 3.5 is about the first edition that I haven't complained about since 1st edition. 2nd was clumsy, lets not get started on the whole Players Option series...and 3.0 was pretty much broken from the start.
3.5 is at least (relatively) balanced, barring a few classes and such that made it through under the radar. And if there is still something that you don't like, House Rule it out or do a personal rewrite. Overall, I have had a great deal less to fix than in just about any previous edition. I mean, I loved 1st edition...but the 1st Ed Cavalier from the Unearthed Arcana, who wouldn't like to have 18/00 in every physical stat! Or the 2nd Ed Elven Knight kit (anyone who has ever seen this kit knows why...).
All in all, 3.5 allows you, within DM restrictions, to create the character most of us want to. I know that there is a great deal of potential for abuse, allow me to direct you to Allen Stewart's Age of Worms character party as a good example.
Hey Turin!? How many characters in that group have the Feral Template?
There will always be people who will bend rules or nerf their characters. This shouldn't reflect badly on 3.5, just on the players themselves.
I am definately going to take a serious look at 4.0 when it comes out. Do I intend on buying it? No. If I can adapt anything that will actually make my job as a DM easier (as a PC too), I will. But I have absolutely no desire to convert over all kinds of things. Not to mention, who wants to deal with another 3.0 to 3.5 incarnation where all the books are now worthless and must be converted yet again? I will be holding off buying anything 4.0 for at least 1-2 years most likely, to make sure that WotC is going to actually create supplements and to take my time an appraise the system. The days of rushing in blindly are over.
Bear in mind also that this push for 4.0 so quickly is most likely caused by the sweeping success of 3.0, followed by 3.5. All of us went and bought 3.0 because 2nd Ed needed to be changed. It was stagnant and awash in strange rules and near-splatbooks.
We are not frothing at the mouth for a revision right now as we were then, so the true question is, Will WotC have the same success?
In answer to your question Yasha, it my belief that at least 2 characters are Feral, with a strong possibility of 3.
And concur, 4th edition may well present some REAL stealable ideas and methods to apply to 3.5 rather than 'convert' everything to 4.0, which would take far less work (relatively speaking).
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Thanks, Fakester. It's good to hear that my thoughts on the matter resonated with you. I wasn't sure I articulated them well enough, but it looks like I did. In the words of Pooh's Eeyore, "Thanks for noticin'."
That was what hit me, as well. I don't mind the release of a new edition. I really don't. I understand that in order to keep the company afloat, that they need to keep producing material - and there's only so much wide-audience material that can be made without falling into the Infinite Complexity Trap. And focusing on niche products - individual campaign settings - isn't as good to do as the wide-audience books, because people who aren't interested will likely overlook them rather than spending the cash and then the time to mine them for usable ideas.
What gets me is the way that they essentially did all kinds of weaseling, misleading, and obfuscating about the release of 4e. They announce all kinds of online aspects, which will be 'purely optional' of course - except that what happens when they release a supplement that requires the "optional" material to make sense of? Oops. Too bad for the people who didn't want to pay extra for the "optional" material. I'm cool with the need to release a new edition; I can appreciate stirring things up, as a Discordian. I'm not cool with the decision to completely take away print editions of material that may be of use. And I'm definitely not happy at having my print copies of Dragon and Dungeon taken away to be replaced with online-only material. I like having a nice book or magazine in my hands.
Will I buy 4e? Probably. If Paizo switches, then I'll go along with it, because so far the Paizo folks are proving to be brilliant, dedicated, and the kind of people I'd like to have at my gaming table. I'll probably pick up the core three books regardless, simply out of curiosity on my part.
Beyond that?
It depends on how WotC/Hasbro behaves. if they stop acting like the Wizard of Oz with curtains, smoke, and mirrors, I'll be more favorably inclined. If they keep up the obfuscation and idiocy, I'll be much more negatively inclined.
...I already know a system that'll play just the way I like, without an online subscription fee. I know a couple, actually, and 3.5 is just one of them...
When I heard about the arrival of 4e from my best friend, I was very disappointed. I remember saying to him, "That's it, I'm done. No more WotC material for me." I was already excited about Pathfinder, and the Gamemastery line, and I still enjoy Forgotten Realms and Eberron and as so many have said ( or maybe only a few said it, and just repeated it) I have enough 3.5 material that I won't need to buy any additional game product just for the sake of having the newest or latest module or supplement (which is admittedly what I have done in the past.)
I don't think I'll even look at the 4e core books. The only way I'd even consider it was if the folks at Paizo made it clear that say the 3rd or 4th adventure path/Pathfinder would utilize or support 4e material.
I actually hope that DOESN'T happen mind you.
I just know that I'm disappointed that 4e is coming out as soon as it is.
I'm really excited by Pathfinder and Gamemastery... AND
I have plenty of gaming material for the current edition.
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From the EN World front page:
Iron Sigil [potent defenses when invoking spells of thunder or force] and Serpent Eye [enchantment, beguiling, and ensnaring] traditions (orb), disciplines of the Hidden Flame [fierce powers of fire and radiance] and the Golden Wyvern [battle-mages] (staff), and Emerald Frost adepts [powers of cold and deadly acidic magic] and Stormwalker theurges [spells of lightning and force] (wand).
OOH Bring it on ! Sounds a tad like ... Magic the Gathering the roleplaying game.
I can hear 8 year olds with access to thier parents disposable income around the world rejoice.
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From the EN World front page:
Iron Sigil [potent defenses when invoking spells of thunder or force] and Serpent Eye [enchantment, beguiling, and ensnaring] traditions (orb), disciplines of the Hidden Flame [fierce powers of fire and radiance] and the Golden Wyvern [battle-mages] (staff), and Emerald Frost adepts [powers of cold and deadly acidic magic] and Stormwalker theurges [spells of lightning and force] (wand).
OOH Bring it on ! Sounds a tad like ... Magic the Gathering the roleplaying game.
I can hear 8 year olds with access to thier parents disposable income around the world rejoice.
man what
That's not just a leap of logic, that's a pole vault.
That's not just a leap of logic, that's a pole vault.
If WotC, and by extension Hasbro, want to make money, why wouldn't they want to model their role playing line much like their CCG and CMG lines which appears to have a much higher renewable income?
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That's not just a leap of logic, that's a pole vault.If WotC, and by extension Hasbro, want to make money, why wouldn't they want to model their role playing line much like their CCG and CMG lines which appears to have a much higher renewable income?
Brand dilution and competition between different internal lines. One of the ironclad rules of running a successful business is never compete with yourself. WotC would never introduce another high fantasy CCG line because it would compete with Magic: the Gathering, and they already have a D&D-branded CMG line.
Right…so why not a CRPG?