The only anecdotal data I have is you. Other than you, Sexi, and Onrie, the number of under 20 players on these boards is miniscule. It may well be that the under 20 gaming population is just not well represented here and that they have infested the lawns/forums of WotC, but I must say that if I had had access to WoW as a kid, I doubt I would've gotten into D&D.
The younger gamers are probably not as many on these boards, as many folks are here because paizo has published Dragon and Dungeon until recently. These two mags are/have been more appreciated by older gamers - to play the game, you need to spend money once for the books, and that can be handled on christmas. But spending money every month on two magazines, even if they are not that expensive, can be a serious burden if you live on a budget. And so, more older folks with regular income will buy the mags, I´d guess. So the older folks are here.
Just some ideas.
Stefan
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Thanks Moff. That's the better response than mine. I think it is fair to say that D&D is losing out to MMORPG's in the under 20 set, but "dying" is probably too strong of a term.
The younger gamers are probably not as many on these boards, as many folks are here because paizo has published Dragon and Dungeon until recently. These two mags are/have been more appreciated by older gamers - to play the game, you need to spend money once for the books, and that can be handled on christmas. But spending money every month on two magazines, even if they are not that expensive, can be a serious burden if you live on a budget. And so, more older folks with regular income will buy the mags, I´d guess. So the older folks are here.Just some ideas.
Stefan
Agreed. Younger gamers may well be better represented on WotC and/or ENWorld. Plus, anecdotal evidence is worth about as much as a bucket of warm piss. I put much more credence in Ryan Dancey's information than in my own very limited sphere of experience.
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If this actually does get the next generation interested, then I am all for it.
Thats what I am hoping also, my oldest daughter is still to young to play (she 4) but I plan on getting her to play D&D instead of video games. Don't get me wrong I played a lot of video games before I had kids and even still do now one night every month or so but I think the social aspect of D&D is a lot better. If in a couple of years she could play D&D once a week with the neighborhood kids I would be ecstatic. If 4e helps that along or allows her to start earlier even better.
And I can imagine a, say, 17-year-old installing the software and just start playing WoW or what have you easily. Reading through at least one fat book, or even three, to start a game is a more daunting task requiring some patience and leading to less immediate and not as visually impressive results.
So, I can imagine that many youngsters will rather play WoW or similar. When I started playing, PCs were glorified pocket calculators unsuited to representing complex fantasy worlds. There were less alternatives than today.
Stefan
The D&D brand machine is not really customer-oriented in the traditional sense of the word. It's more of a constant grazing animal that eats up younger players, chews on them for a bit (usually during their college years when they have a lot of free time) then spits them out when they get older. That's how the bulk of the core market for D&D operates; there's also the 'boutique' market for older, settled players who occasionally get stuff thrown in their general direction (Castle Greyhawk), but this is not something that will sustain an organization as large as WotC/Hasbro.
WotC needs to regenerate its core market on a continual basis, much like MTV, not follow it as it ages into obscurity. The corollary of that is that WotC will often do things that enrage and/or screw-over their older, loyal customers. Omnia mutantur. I can understand their business logic, I just can't follow their path. I'll certainly give 4E a try (I generally like change, and want D&D to be more streamlined/fixed), but I doubt it will move me.
PS: "give it a try, you might like" is not exactly an inspiring, vigorous warcry. Might as well go with "MEH!!!"
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I'm not saying that people don't have valid concerns, but all these huffy little "I'll never switch" posts are ridiculous and childish. Espcially when compared with more honest posts like those by Aberzombie or Fatespinner that basically say (if I may paraphrase) "I'm not entirely happy about this, but I like D&D, and I'll see if 4e is a product for me." I could be wrong Doug, but I suspect that you will end up there once you get over being irritated at WotC's sucker punch of an announcement.
If you reread what I wrote, I think you'll find that I didn't say (and I hope I didn't imply) that "I'll never switch." But I'm going in with a very high bar for WotC to jump. In large part, this is because of WotC's recent conduct.
If I may though, I would like to say that WotC's white lies may not have been malicious. Had WotC indicated when they would release 4e any sooner, the market would have reacted. This reaction could very well have done the most damage to Paizo as they were launching Pathfinder/the Gamemaster modules. By saying that 4e was a long ways off, they gave Paizo a window. They took a PR beating back in April to give Paizo a chance to launch with positive press. Maybe this is a sign of WotC's incompetence rather than their benevolence, but judging by the way Paizo has defended WotC, I believe it is the later.
That being said, I won't bend over backwards to defend their s@~*ty PR. But, I don't buy games from WotC because I like their PR, I buy games because I like their games. To the extent that the two can be separated, I would submit that they are worth separating.
WotC intentionally made materially false statements upon which I (and others) relied to make purchasing decisions. The money used to make those purchases is money that I wouldn't have otherwise spent on WotC products in the absence of those statements. That has a different definition than either "PR" or "white lies", as I'm sure you know. Black's puts it like this (in part):
"All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth."
"Well, but I had to lie to get the sale!" is not something that, say, a District Attorney would find exculpatory. WotC lied, as you seem to stipulate, to gain a business advantage. That doesn't make their lying more honorable.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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If you reread what I wrote, I think you'll find that I didn't say (and I hope I didn't imply) that "I'll never switch." But I'm going in with a very high bar for WotC to jump. In large part, this is because of WotC's recent conduct.
I didn't read your post that way and did not mean to imply otherwise. That's why my response was something along the lines of "I think you will be open to the idea, Doug, once you get over being annoyed at the PR portion."
WotC intentionally made materially false statements upon which I (and others) relied to make purchasing decisions. The money used to make those purchases is money that I wouldn't have otherwise spent on WotC products in the absence of those statements. That has a different definition than either "PR" or "white lies", as I'm sure you know. Black's puts it like this (in part):"All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth."
"Well, but I had to lie to get the sale!" is not something that, say, a District Attorney would find exculpatory. WotC lied, as you seem to stipulate, to gain a business advantage. That doesn't make their lying more honorable.
Doug, the above has no basis in the law whatsoever. Companies do things like this all the time, it's not as if WotC told you Complete Champion would cure your whooping cough and it failed to do so. They had no obligation to tell you when 4e would be released, and having told you one thing, they had no obligation to correct that false statement. Simply quoting the law is leagues away from understanding what the law actually says and how the law actually operates.
Also, I'm not sure they ever said officially when 4e would come out. I find things like this when I search:
"I'm surprised it took this long for someone to ask that. It's going to come at some point. It's a long ways away. You'll get an announcement when that happens, but it's a long ways away. We have a lot of good stuff coming out through 2008."
What does a "long ways" mean? A month? Two months? I've got no idea. Do they have 3e stuff coming out through 2008? Yes.
Plus, anecdotal evidence is worth about as much as a bucket of warm piss.
Well, then, I suppose that relating my experience of D&D groups in my backwater region of rural Southern Indiana isn't worth much.
But anyway-
In high school: There were at least a dozen other people who had played D&D at some point other than our group of 5. Additionally, upwards of another 12 approached us with at least semi-serious interest in what we were doing, but things didn't pan out for some reason or another. That's a fairly large margin for a junior/senior high school (grades 7-12) with only around 350 kids in it, particularly given the amount of paranoid religious groups (no offense to non-paranoid religious folks; but it can be pretty bad where I live) and anti-academia bias which runs rampant in the region.
In college: It's harder to say, as I go to a commuter college. However, I know for a fact that there are 3 D&D games officially staged in the campus' Gaming Society, along with other groups engaged in things like Vampire and CoC, and even LARPing. Again, by my estimate, not bad for a commuter college of around 6,000 in basically the exact same region and cultural climate as described under my high school experience.
However, I feel there is a broader truth of the whole situation. I feel qualified to speak of it as I am part of the generation to which it pertains, but it remains anecdotal. So, take it for what it's worth.
The youth "culture" of America today is, quite frankly, s~@~. Things like MySpace, texting, and instant messaging ravage the literacy of America's youth. Several generations of piss-poor parents have created a generation of vain, irresponsible, incompetant children with a massive sense of entitlement and absolutely no comprehension of the value of education. Everything must be instant gratification, shiny and new, or they couldn't care less. This isn't helped by a coporate culture which seems to be continent to feed vampirically on the intellectual blood of this country. I hope to God that other nations have a better situation with their children, because what I see in my peers leaves me chilled when it comes to hopes for the future.
I highly doubt there is very much WotC can do that will actually pull people away from MMO's at all. Attempting to emulate them only profanes the institutions and traditions which have come to be associated with D&D and leave it a cut above the norm. As others have said, it is a niche market, it will always be a niche market. It's never going to grab the attention of the masses. The corporate a##&%*+s at WotC/Hasbro who are pulling the strings of the designers need to realize this and conduct themselves appropriately.
Again, I'm not attacking 4e. However, WotC's conduct disgusts me.
The youth "culture" of America today is, quite frankly, s%%@. Things like MySpace, texting, and instant messaging ravage the literacy of America's youth. Several generations of piss-poor parents have created a generation of vain, irresponsible, incompetant children with a massive sense of entitlement and absolutely no comprehension of the value of education. Everything must be instant gratification, shiny and new, or they couldn't care less. This isn't helped by a coporate culture which seems to be continent to feed vampirically on the intellectual blood of this country. I hope to God that other nations have a better situation with their children, because what I see in my peers leaves me chilled when it comes to hopes for the future.
Wow! If somebody my age (37) would have written that above, it would be discounted as the usual lament about the "youth of today" - even Socrates complained in a like manner about 2500 years ago, and there is even older evidence of this sentiment.
But Saern, as you are part of this youth culture (at age 19), I am surprised at this very negative view of your peers. So, what can we do? Calling all gamers: teach the young ones classic tabletop RPGs, and try to educate them in passing - or something like that.
Stefan
not very coherent at the moment, I´ll go to bed shortly.
4e would have to be a serious change and really have something worthwhile to offer as I have spent a whole lot of money on 3.5 and own like 30 books and am not gonna do that again for some silly new ed. I dont even use most of the books I own; just have them available for my players.
So, what can we do?
An entire societal overhaul would be nice. Ain't gonna happen, tho. Quite frankly, I think we're doomed to keep on keeping on. Not much has really changed in the last 100,000 years of the existence of homo sapiens sapiens. And that's a rather bleak fact.
Our whole culture just needs to
SLOW
DOWN
and
T
H
I
N
K
Ain't gonna happen, tho.
Director of Narrative
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People who think out game is dying haven't seen the 30,000 people I have been bumping into for the past few days, the over 2 acre convention center filled with all manner of RPGs and the heaps of companies that I didn't know existed.
People got upset when miniatures wargaming merged so strongly with role-playing games to the point we are at now, now folks are getting peeved that computer games are merging with tabletop games. I've been too busy talking to people this week that I honestly haven't stopped to check out what 4th will be like, but I will, and I'll tell everyone what I think.
In my opinion, I think we should lay off the 4e speculations until we see a product and do our gamers proud by working on quality stuff for our games in the interim.
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4e would have to be a serious change and really have something worthwhile to offer as I have spent a whole lot of money on 3.5 and own like 30 books and am not gonna do that again for some silly new ed. I dont even use most of the books I own; just have them available for my players.
I'm with ya!
My group is in the middle of the Red Hand of Doom. We still want to go through Shackled City, Age of Worms, Savage Tide, Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, Rappan Athuk, Castle Whiterock, Ptolus, and the myriad Gamemastery and Goodman Games modules I have. Good grief, Greg V has a trilogy of modules by Necromancer Games having the players assult Orcus' ancient holdout!
I have years and years of 3.5 material to keep me plenty happy.
So while I agree with Sabastion's thesis, WotC can do everything they can to evolve the game off the table without my dollars.
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I agree with Sebastian also, my post on the first couple pages of the 4dventure post summarizes this view, so I won't repeat it here.
I have to say though, what did people think was going to happen after incremental edition 3.5?
That 4.0 was never going to happen?
The game evolves. You can choose to evolve with it or not.
The dozens of books and supplements released for 3.0/3.5 are more than anyone could ever use in their entirety for any number of campaigns. There is more than enough published material for to keep playing a great game from this edition. You could stay with what is out there, buy up the back catalog of books, and still play great campaigns for years.
Or you could embrace change and give it a shot. I did with 3.0 and ended up very happy with the ride.
They are trying to improve the game with each subsequent edition, and with the digital initiative I think they are improving it two-fold:
1. Make the gameplay flow better.
2. Embrace the technology available to improve the game.
Simply that.
Oh, for God's sake - his ego will grow to such titanic proportions, his smugness will be visible from orbit.... Someone block this thread before Sebastian sees it, the ramifications are unthinkable if he ever does.
Hear, hear!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Oh, for God's sake - his ego will grow to such titanic proportions, his smugness will be visible from orbit.... Someone block this thread before Sebastian sees it, the ramifications are unthinkable if he ever does.Hear, hear!
I've got bad news for you. At 3:12 p.m. Pacific Time, my ego became self-aware and escaped from the jar in which my disembodied brain is encased. It now has two missions:
1. Promote 4e above all else.
2. Kill Sarah Conner.
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In my opinion, I think we should lay off the 4e speculations until we see a product and do our gamers proud by working on quality stuff for our games in the interim.
To your point, I am not opposed to the game evolving. I am opposed to the way WotC has been handling it. As silly as it sounds, I'm hurt. Yes it is irrational. Yes I am still bitter over the Dragon and Dungeon debacle. "Trust us" doesn't make me feel better.
The speculation and whining is so thick I can't f@!%ing breathe around here. I'll be back after I read Pathfinder.
Before I go, all I know is history has it's lessons.
Lesson 1 (for the skeptics and ranters)
WotC is going to do something right, just like they have in the past. (Pre-painted minis)
Lesson 2 (for the optimists)
WotC is going to do something wrong and piss everyone off. Like.... aw s*&&, there's lots of examples. Choose your own.
Unless they wanted to gradually phaze it out. Make it easier for those buying books to embrase the digital media and sooner or later the book buyers will be in the minority.
I sure hope so.
At that point there won't be any need for editions and our libraries won't be wiped out every so often.
I'd like it best if such a system had some kind of a print on demand component. Don't want to pay subscriber costs?
----
Well you can order the PHB rules as they currently stand for $35. We'll offer you a discount on that if you order the rules as they currently stand plus the the basic monster pack.
For advanced users we offer you the option to have a print on demand monster manual that includes 200 monsters of your choosing from our large monster catalog of over 2000 monsters. Many of the monsters in our catalog have been around for years and have been play tested by a large fan base insure that their CRs and abilities work with the system.
Be forewarned that if you loose this print on demand version of the rules or another player buys the print on demand copy in several months the rules will not exactly line up as we modify them constantly to insure play balance and ease of use. You can see our web site at [insert some url here] to see a record of what was changed and the date that this change took effect.
The youth "culture" of America today is, quite frankly, s##@. Things like MySpace, texting, and instant messaging ravage the literacy of America's youth. Several generations of piss-poor parents have created a generation of vain, irresponsible, incompetant children with a massive sense of entitlement and absolutely no comprehension of the value of education. Everything must be instant gratification, shiny and new, or they couldn't care less. This isn't helped by a coporate culture which seems to be continent to feed vampirically on the intellectual blood of this country. I hope to God that other nations have a better situation with their children, because what I see in my peers leaves me chilled when it comes to hopes for the future.
I highly doubt there is very much WotC can do that will actually pull people away from MMO's at all. Attempting to emulate them only profanes the institutions and traditions which have come to be associated with D&D and leave it a cut above the norm. As others have said, it is a niche market, it will always be a niche market. It's never going to grab the attention of the masses. The corporate a##%%%#s at WotC/Hasbro who are pulling the strings of the designers need to realize this and conduct themselves appropriately.
Again, I'm not attacking 4e. However, WotC's conduct disgusts me.
It's great to see that there's still hope for the future when people like Saern shows this kind of intellectual insight.
I also feel that a lot of the "Gotta catch 'em all!" marketing strategy of Wizards (*cough* Hasbro *cough*) seems to do what's so frightingly in vogue now, and has been for way too long, namely pandering to the lowest common denominator.It's a road that only leads one way... down!
Society becomes less intellectual, more self-engrossed and unable to concentrate on anything for more than a fleeting moment.
And Wizards have just shown that they are more interested in making money the easiest way, instead of actually helping to turn this awful trend around by being bastions of hope for bettering the youth culture of today.
This is, as with many other posts, not a diss of the 4th edition rules themselves, but a comment on the whole surrounding digital initiative.
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Heathansson, I'll be honest. I love 3.5 as it presently stands. I've been a DM mostly and a player often for almost twenty-years. I have earned my grognard stripes.
This game can be made better, and can be improved upon. I believe these things can be done without alienating the original 'old school' players of the game while drawing in some much needed new blood.
If this is money-making ploy and a lot of flashy lights and no substance, they will not get my money. Paizo has as much as said they will provide a safety net for the fans, and would be a perfect custodian of a 'perpetual 3.5' product line if the outcry indicates that this is what the majority of the fans want.
Pencil me in as an optimistic wait and see, with a very good alternative if the doomsday scenario does occur.
Don't prejudge though, the end result could very well be better than anyone could ever hope.
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I agree with Sebastian also, my post on the first couple pages of the 4dventure post summarizes this view, so I won't repeat it here.I have to say though, what did people think was going to happen after incremental edition 3.5?
That 4.0 was never going to happen?
The game evolves. You can choose to evolve with it or not.
The dozens of books and supplements released for 3.0/3.5 are more than anyone could ever use in their entirety for any number of campaigns. There is more than enough published material for to keep playing a great game from this edition. You could stay with what is out there, buy up the back catalog of books, and still play great campaigns for years.
Or you could embrace change and give it a shot. I did with 3.0 and ended up very happy with the ride.
They are trying to improve the game with each subsequent edition, and with the digital initiative I think they are improving it two-fold:
1. Make the gameplay flow better.
2. Embrace the technology available to improve the game.Simply that.
I don't mind the upgrade. What has me pissed is the whole loss of Dragon and Dungeon as a resource to be replaced with a digital replacement of questionable quality. I also forsee a 4.5 edition in 2 more years to "help fix"(not to get scads more money on the whole D&D population having to upgrade from 4.0 to 4.5, mind you) some things that the very limited playtesting didn't find. I hate that I need to pay a monthly fee to use some stuff that either should be sold as a program (the Character Creator) or packaged in with a core book. Why isn't the Character creater program part of my buying the PHB? Why don't I get the virtual tabletop with my DMG? Virtual monster tokens with my Monster Manual?
They have the opportunity to make D&D really awesome but the ever increasing greed of WOTC is making this Digital Initiative look like a blatant attempt to leech the D&D players of as much money as possible.I like to BUY things, not rent them. I don't wanna lose stuff because I didn't pay upkeep costs. I want something I pay for to be mine.
FH
Well, I read it; cant say I dissagree; will continue to just do my own thing and run a great game regardless of rule changes or whatnot; my only interest in 4th ed is what do they mean by better high level play. All I see in this ed is money grubbing and very little improved product; but is early; they are really gonna have to sell this though as I have no use for it and they have not yet done a good job of that yet.
hmm....you could do model railroads real good on the internet.
Have lil dudes walking around and everything.
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But when is WotC gonna start acting like a grown-up company and start SELLING what it owns in a smart, customer-friendly, customer-enticing way?
This "We're here, we're the big boy, we know what's coming but we won't tell you" attitude is KILLLING them.
It seems to me that WotC is doing precisely what you want them to: telling us what's coming well before it arrives. In fact, it looks as if we'll get a lot more insight into the 4e design process and marketing plans than we got with 3e.
And if you're still hacked about how they handled pulling the Dragon/Dungeon licenses back from Paizo, would you have preferred: "Dragon and Dungeon print magazines are going away, but we'll be providing direct electronic replacements, although we still haven't worked out all the details. But we do know it'll be tied in with the release of 4e, so anything Paizo does will soon be obsolete in the context of ongoing D&D products. Stay tuned for more!"
Would that have made people happier than "Dragon and Dungeon print magazines are going away, but don't worry, those storied products aren't disappearing for good. We'd love to tell you more, but for now, Paizo still has a few more great issues of both magazines coming out, and they've got some wonderful follow-up products already scheduled. For more, here's Paizo!"
As far as I've seen, not a single Paizo employee that's commented on these boards has expressed anything negative about the magazine licenses reverting to WotC, other than feelings of nostalgia. If anything, they've assured us that WotC treated them with respect, and were flexible in accomodating Paizo's situation, giving them plenty of time to finish the STAP, develop Pathfinder and other products to carry them forward, etc. I just don't see why people should be holding a grudge against WotC on behalf of Paizo, when the supposedly aggrieved party says nothing bad happened.
Just because Paizo did a fantastic job with Dragon and Dungeon doesn't mean that anything WotC does will suck. WotC, too, has quite a few talented people working there.
is just wait and see to me; will evaluate there product fairly.
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No
It is as simple as that. If the 4th Edition sucks, i will neither buy nor play it. There is no "Great Cause" here. There is nothing to be gained or lost. If the 4th Edition sucks, it is a bad game and as such, nothing i would spend my money on.
Did you read Sebastian's profile before you posted this? He wasn't exhorting people to buy 4e, no matter what. He was saying that it's premature to decide now, and that if you're interested in the long-term health of this hobby, you should at least take a good look at 4e before making that decision.
I don't know if I'll go into 4e. I generally applaud the idea of further streamlining the current rules, and I've enjoyed some recent experiments (like Book of Nine Swords), but there are others I haven't liked. I'm a sucker for game mechanics, so I'll probably get the core rulebooks, but I've got an awful lot of 3.5e and 3e (and 2e, and 1e) gaming material, and I don't know if I want to get on that train again. But I'll wait and see how it turns out. That seems a better posture than getting all worked up now about how much 4e might suck before we've even gotten a chance to see it.
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My biggest gripe currently is the tight integration of the "online" option into the core, and the tighter involvement of the minis line. Both make it necessary to buy more, not just once but, in the case of the online offering, on an ongoing basis.
What makes you think that the digital subscription and minis will be necessary to play 4e, instead of just using the books? I'm pretty certain that WotC has stated exactly the opposite.
Well after cooling down a bit, viewing the You Tube presentations, and reading the posts here and elsewhere on Paizo.. I'm going to have to give 4E a chance...
As an aside, if D&D continues to exist, I don't think 4E will be the last edition.. In the first You Tube presentation both Bill and Chris kept bringing up the word "evolution," now for me evolution implies constant change.. And D&D is in a constant state of change.. So I'm sure 4E won't be the last renovation to the d20 system..
As much as I hate shelling out several hundred dollars for the hobby... There has to come to a point where I say enough is enough as far as pure economics are concerned...
I think 3.5 has had its day, I haven't bought many of the 3.5 supplements and many have posted on these boards the reason why. They don't find these changes and additions as improving the system.. It's breaking d20 D&D down rather than building it up.. I know all of you don't feel this way, but I feel the same as a few posters do here that these latest incarnations of 3.5 aren't cutting the mustard.
As far as the Internet set up goes, I feel, as has been said before by many posters here, that really, WOTC has to go this route if it is to compete with WOW, and all the other vid "RPGs" out there... And I use this term loosely.. Having played DDO (Dungeons and Dragons Online) for about a year now and observing WOW being played at a friend's house.. These games aren't about roleplaying at all... None.. I can't tell you how many times there's been an in-game story bit that I and other DDO gamers have to click through really fast so that the whole party can move forward.. OR.. to prevent myself from getting left behind and getting killed by respawns.. These games are all hack and slash.. and loot... I've never, ever heard a DDO player compliment the writing of DDO, or praise the storyline of a quest... Or even attempt to role-play a disenfranchised warforged or a world weary rogue.. On-line RPGs have become synonymous with instant gratification.. Of strictly video game hack and slash, with healing mixed in.. In DDO you get much more xp for slaying something than negotiating with it.. Which incidentally, is why i love Paizo, in their modules they give players just as much xp for deceiving or negotiating with a monster as they do for killing it.. But I digress.. On-line roleplaying, at least in the case of DDO and WOW is a game of click and slay, open the treasure chest, grab the loot, and sell it for mulah or buy magic items.. That my friends, is not role-playing.
NOW, if WOTC can bring the role-playing back INTO on-line gaming with 4E, then I'm all for it... And as some have mentioned here, hopefully the enthusiasm will spread to tabletop gaming. Maybe WOTC can gain a few more recruits to the tabletop arena by havig 4E available with this on-line set up.. As has been said, they have to evolve, because unfortunately, they need the money, as any company does.. These guys don't work for free..
Well I have more to say, but I can't type fast enough and if I don't get this post out soon enough..
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I really would have wanted to stay away from the "youth of today" topic because it's shop talk and, for me, messageboard time is supposed to be away from career, but...
For Saern and GentleGiant (and anyone else interested), the argument that society is going down the toilet with the dumbness of kids is not quite correct. Just mostly correct.
While it is true that society's collective literacy is decreasing, advantaged youth is only becoming more elitist. In other words, the dumb are getting dumber and the smart are getting smarter. It used be said that 1% of the world administered 99%. If that was true in generations past, then tomorrow that 1% will get smaller -- and far more educated.
-W. E. Ray
I really would have wanted to stay away from the "youth of today" topic because it's shop talk and, for me, messageboard time is supposed to be away from career, but...
For Saern and GentleGiant (and anyone else interested), the argument that society is going down the toilet with the dumbness of kids is not quite correct. Just mostly correct.
While it is true that society's collective literacy is decreasing, advantaged youth is only becoming more elitist. In other words, the dumb are getting dumber and the smart are getting smarter. It used be said that 1% of the world administered 99%. If that was true in generations past, then tomorrow that 1% will get smaller -- and far more educated.
-W. E. Ray
My intent was not to go down that path at all Mo... It's just my personal observations from playing DDO and from watching others play WOW.
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I hate that I need to pay a monthly fee to use some stuff that either should be sold as a program (the Character Creator) or packaged in with a core book. Why isn't the Character creater program part of my buying the PHB? Why don't I get the virtual tabletop with my DMG? Virtual monster tokens with my Monster Manual?
And why aren't adventure modules free after I've bought the DMG? Why don't they include a nice set of dice with the Player's Handbook? Why do they make me pay for further monster books after I've bought the Monster Manual?
Oh, right, those other things provide added value to customers and they cost WotC money to produce, and as a profit-seeking entity, it would be silly of them not to use those products as means of generating further profit rather than debt.
It's part of a business model that WotC has apparently spent quite some time thinking about. Maybe it won't work out, and D&D Insider will die a horrible, lonely death. Maybe in a couple of years WotC will smack its collective forehead in frustration, exclaiming "If only we'd given all those online resources away for free, we'd have sold a gajillion more books and come out way ahead, instead of selling our office furniture at auction!" Maybe, but I doubt it.
They have the opportunity to make D&D really awesome but the ever increasing greed of WOTC is making this Digital Initiative look like a blatant attempt to leech the D&D players of as much money as possible.
I'll let you in on a little secret: Everything that WotC, and TSR before them, has ever done, has been at least partially about "leeching" as much money from D&D players as possible. It encourages them to make stuff that doesn't suck.
I like to BUY things, not rent them. I don't wanna lose stuff because I didn't pay upkeep costs. I want something I pay for to be mine.
Now that's a good point, and I'll be interested to hear what happens to someone's access to Dragon/Dungeon issues, generated characters, etc. if one drops his or her subscription.
What makes you think that the digital subscription and minis will be necessary to play 4e, instead of just using the books? I'm pretty certain that WotC has stated exactly the opposite.
Well... Let me ask you this:
"What will 4th Edition be without the minis and digital subscription?"
What I am getting at is, if you aren't going to immerse yourself in the fullness of 4th Edition... Why even go to it in the first place?
Without all the bells and whistles, the SRD will do you just fine. Or maybe even stick with 3.5.
by Chris ThomassonI like to BUY things, not rent them. I don't wanna lose stuff because I didn't pay upkeep costs. I want something I pay for to be mine.Now that's a good point, and I'll be interested to hear what happens to someone's access to Dragon/Dungeon issues, generated characters, etc. if one drops his or her subscription.
"There's still some uncertainty about Dragon and Dungeon moving online, but the only downside I hear is that people will miss the portability. It's certainly true you'll need to print an article to take it to the can with you, but there are so many positives about this change."
So, it would seem that you probably can't download the online Dragon and Dungeon magazines (except for a straight copy/paste thing).
If you think you can shame this 'crybaby' into silence you have grossly underestimated my infantilism. :)
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Well... Let me ask you this:
"What will 4th Edition be without the minis and digital subscription?"
A new set of streamlined, fun-to-play rules? Isn't that what you'd expect from a new edition?
What I am getting at is, if you aren't going to immerse yourself in the fullness of 4th Edition... Why even go to it in the first place?
Without all the bells and whistles, the SRD will do you just fine. Or maybe even stick with 3.5.
People said that about 3e and 3.5e, too, and people still bought plenty of hardbound books.
Can this go back to talking about campaigns and questions about spells and feats and suppliments and such?
...Just thought I'd ask, I have a question about the flame blade spell but I'm afraid it will be whisked away
People said that about 3e and 3.5e, too, and people still bought plenty of hardbound books.
What? There is a whole Digital Initiative for 3.5 and no one told me???
Where is my code to have access to the spell database?[/sarcasm]
But in reality, 3.5 offered something better, but very similar, to 2nd Edition. Besides some (relatively) minor mechanic changes, it was still very much like 2nd Edition.
4th Edition is different. I won't comment on it's quality, but we already know that it is different enough that it will be difficult to "pluck out the good parts."
So, there won't be much 3rd / 4th hybrids... Or 2nd / 4th hybrids.
4th Edition won't get the crossover crowd.
It will stand or fall on it's own merit.
And the incorporation of mini's and the digital subscription are part of that merit.
There is no "half-(censored)ing" with this version.
It is all or nothing.
Now we have to wait and see if the all is worth it.
Oh, for God's sake - his ego will grow to such titanic proportions, his smugness will be visible from orbit.... Someone block this thread before Sebastian sees it, the ramifications are unthinkable if he ever does.Hear, hear!I've got bad news for you. At 3:12 p.m. Pacific Time, my ego became self-aware and escaped from the jar in which my disembodied brain is encased. It now has two missions:
1. Promote 4e above all else.
2. Kill Sarah Conner.
OMG!You're gleemax?!
I, like Saern, fail to comprehend why the need to move to 4th edition exists, except from a financial standpoint. Will 4th edition really revolutionize the game and elevate it to new, and heretofore unreached plateaus? I think not.
I have very much enjoyed the 3.5 system. If the purpose of 4.0 was to simplify the game, then we wouldn't need the 100+ Tomes/Manuals/Books that will subsequently be released after the PH, DMG, & MM1 for 4.0. This move only makes sense from a financial perspective, as we're on the 3rd go around of class books, and we've got a "Guide 2/Tome/or Manual..." for everything under the sun for 3.5... there's really not much left for WoTC to produce in terms of rule mechanic books that support the game, hence the natural move to 4.0; and make us all buy the same books all over again.
Do educate us Sebastian if you please. Is there some desire by the folks at WoTC to make d&d into a tabletop version of a computer game. I have never played an MMORPG, and honestly I don't even know what the MMO stands for. Please do clue in those of us 30'somethings who have stuck with the paper and pencil game to the exclusion of all others... and why the computer leaning trend? Are we trying to save trees here by not making books anymore?
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People said that about 3e and 3.5e, too, and people still bought plenty of hardbound books.What? There is a whole Digital Initiative for 3.5 and no one told me???
No, of course not. You asked why people would bother with 4e if they didn't go whole hog with the online subscription and the minis. If they're just planning to stick with books, why not just use the SRD, or stay with 3.5e?
My point was that people did fine with just books in 3e and 3.5e, and there's no reason to expect that the experience will be substantially different for 4e. Also, that many said you could do just fine with the SRD, especially with the 3.5e transition, but that WotC ended up selling lots of 3e and 3.5e core books anyway.
Does everyone buy WotC minis today? No, but they can still play D&D, no problem. Do all D&D players check out the WotC Web site on a regular basis, or make use of computerized chargen and DMing tools? No, but they have fun playing D&D with books, dice, paper, and writing utensils. Why do you assume that will change, even if the books people play with are 4th Edition?
But in reality, 3.5 offered something better, but very similar, to 2nd Edition. Besides some (relatively) minor mechanic changes, it was still very much like 2nd Edition.
The move to 3e was the sharpest in D&D's history, with the possible exception of the introduction of 1e AD&D. The basic mechanics were drastically changed from 2e to 3e. 4e is still d20, so it won't be any more different from the current D&D than is True20, or Arcana Unearthed, or Star Wars Saga, or any of the numerous d20 games out there. Which is to say, it could be quite different, and possibly much better (depending on your particular tastes and concerns), but at least the basic mechanics will be familiar.
4th Edition is different. I won't comment on it's quality, but we already know that it is different enough that it will be difficult to "pluck out the good parts."
You must know a lot more about 4e than what's been released by WotC, then. Please, tell us more.
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To hell with it. I just had an epiphany. The epiphany I had made this vulgar situation tenable to me. Even entertaining. I have something to look forward to; either way I win.
I'll keep my epiphany to myself; I've been labeled "Cassandra" or "doomsayer" or "pessimist" too many times in life by too many people to whom I've inevitably proven the veracity of my foresight.
Only in the most dire of circumstances do I feel moved to speak.
So,...Sebastian, I'll be taking that pie now; if figurative then it is as much as consumed and swallowed. If literal please see to it that none of the ingredients contain salmonella or hepatitis.
I'll sign on as a virtual Pollyanna for all of this 4e. hullaballoo. I'll join Sebastian in his little celebratory jig. Cheerio, jolly chums! Cheerio.
To hell with it. I just had an epiphany. The epiphany I had made this vulgar situation tenable to me. Even entertaining. I have something to look forward to; either way I win.
I'll keep my epiphany to myself; I've been labeled "Cassandra" or "doomsayer" or "pessimist" too many times in life by too many people to whom I've inevitably proven the veracity of my foresight.
Only in the most dire of circumstances do I feel moved to speak.
So,...Sebastian, I'll be taking that pie now; if figurative then it is as much as consumed and swallowed. If literal please see to it that none of the ingredients contain salmonella or hepatitis.
I'll sign on as a virtual Pollyanna for all of this 4e. hullaballoo. I'll join Sebastian in his little celebratory jig. Cheerio, jolly chums! Cheerio.
~WEG~ So, "Who is afraid of Cassandra Wolf?"
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People said that about 3e and 3.5e, too, and people still bought plenty of hardbound books.What? There is a whole Digital Initiative for 3.5 and no one told me???No, of course not. You asked why people would bother with 4e if they didn't go whole hog with the online subscription and the minis. If they're just planning to stick with books, why not just use the SRD, or stay with 3.5e?
My point was that people did fine with just books in 3e and 3.5e, and there's no reason to expect that the experience will be substantially different for 4e. Also, that many said you could do just fine with the SRD, especially with the 3.5e transition, but that WotC ended up selling lots of 3e and 3.5e core books anyway.
Does everyone buy WotC minis today? No, but they can still play D&D, no problem. Do all D&D players check out the WotC Web site on a regular basis, or make use of computerized chargen and DMing tools? No, but they have fun playing D&D with books, dice, paper, and writing utensils. Why do you assume that will change, even if the books people play with are 4th Edition?
But in reality, 3.5 offered something better, but very similar, to 2nd Edition. Besides some (relatively) minor mechanic changes, it was still very much like 2nd Edition.The move to 3e was the sharpest in D&D's history, with the possible exception of the introduction of 1e AD&D. The basic mechanics were drastically changed from 2e to 3e. 4e is still d20, so it won't be any more different from the current D&D than is True20, or Arcana Unearthed, or Star Wars Saga, or any of the numerous d20 games out there. Which is to say, it could be quite different, and possibly much better (depending on your particular tastes and concerns), but at least the basic mechanics will be familiar.
4th Edition is different. I won't comment on it's quality, but we already know that it is different enough that it will be difficult to...I think everybody gets you, Occam. You are going to rail and pick apart anyone who posts something against 4E. Great, wonderful. We all have an opinion that needs your wisdom to analyze it and immediately feed us our faults in having an opinion or feeling that differs from your own.
I'm sure I am wrong in this statement and that you will show me the err in my ways.
FH
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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To hell with it. I just had an epiphany. The epiphany I had made this vulgar situation tenable to me. Even entertaining. I have something to look forward to; either way I win.
I'll keep my epiphany to myself; I've been labeled "Cassandra" or "doomsayer" or "pessimist" too many times in life by too many people to whom I've inevitably proven the veracity of my foresight.
Only in the most dire of circumstances do I feel moved to speak.
So,...Sebastian, I'll be taking that pie now; if figurative then it is as much as consumed and swallowed. If literal please see to it that none of the ingredients contain salmonella or hepatitis.
I'll sign on as a virtual Pollyanna for all of this 4e. hullaballoo. I'll join Sebastian in his little celebratory jig. Cheerio, jolly chums! Cheerio.
Ah! Heathy has been possessed. Get an axe!
I'm glad to hear you giving it a try. If it sucks, I'll be there with you, cursing those bastards at WotC all the way. And if it rocks, we can play some virtual D&D together.
But you should record your ephiphany so that you can prove you were right later.
In my opinion, I think we should lay off the 4e speculations until we see a product and do our gamers proud by working on quality stuff for our games in the interim.To your point, I am not opposed to the game evolving. I am opposed to the way WotC has been handling it. As silly as it sounds, I'm hurt. Yes it is irrational. Yes I am still bitter over the Dragon and Dungeon debacle. "Trust us" doesn't make me feel better.
I fall into the same categoy.
I've got bookcases and boxes of D&D stuff, starting from back when it was actually called Dungeons and Dragons the first time, through AD&D, 2nd Ed, 3.0, 3.5.
I didn't throw up my arms and vow never to buy 3.0 when it came out, despite my large collection of 2nd edition books.
If its new, and overall better, then I'll buy it and be happy. I've also played Shadowrun through 4 editions, and I'm okay with new editions. It makes business sense for the publisher, and also makes me happy as a consumer that I get new shiny rules. And anyways, the most important stuff to me (the fluff) isn't going away or becoming obsolete.
I'm even ok with the "white lies" of not telling us 4th ed was coming. I understand that they weren't going to tell us in 2005 when they started on it, and I was expecting it to come sooner or later anyways.
But I am pissed over Wizards utterly incompetent PR efforts. As Sebastian said, you can seperate the PR from the designers... but given how bad the PR is, its not inspiring a lot of faith in me.
But I will look at the books, and most likely buy them. They already passed the most important test for me, which was the continuation of OGL.