*Grumble grumble* I haven't even heard back from Customer Service regarding the mail I sent early yesterday (have to change my credit card for this order since my wallet was stolen), so I fear it'll be even longer still before I am finally processed (or rather, my order is, not me in person... I know someone would jump on that if I didn't mention it! :-p)
Another day, another absent PDF.
I feel your pain; me too.
Chief Technical Officer
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Why can't you charge our credit card and give us access to the pdf at the start of this process instead of at the end?Well, as soon as we look at your order, we do just that. It's just that we can't look at all orders simultaneously or instantaneously, so there's a queue, and that queue is organized in the way that fulfills the most people the fastest.I suppose my question really breaks down to why we (International buyers) have to wait until you actually look at our order first? Why not, as soon as the label is printed, you charge our credit card, and then we get access to the pdf. I am just not seeing why I need to wait for all the customs and stuff to get done before you charge me and give me access to the pdf. Print the label, charge my credit card, give me access to the pdf, then worry about stuffing around with customs and stuff.
When I say "when we look at your order," I mean "when your order comes up in the queue." And when your order comes up, we do exactly what you suggest, though in a slightly different order: we charge your card, give you access to the PDF, send you the confirmation e-mail, and then print your label and customs form. It's just that it takes time to get through the queue.
If only my parents had named me A. Aaason :)
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Chief Technical Officer
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We're being charged for the physical book, while being charged for the pdf (with instant "shipping") would have given us all access to it at the same time (yes, I've read the "we'd have to do it all over again for the printed books then" comments too - I just feel, like others have also pointed out, that there must be an easier way to do it).
Okay—imagine this. You have a carton of eggs, and you need to write the letters "X" and "Y" on each egg. You could write an X on each egg in turn and then write a Y on each egg, or you could pick up each egg and write an X and a Y on it at the same time. The first way, all the eggs might get an X faster, but the total process will take longer, because it's the process of picking up the egg that takes the time, not the process of writing on it.
And that's true here. Once we get to your order in the queue, we figure out what you're getting and how it's shipping; that tells us how much to charge your card—those steps take up a big part of the time it takes to process your order. Once we've charged your card, it's a quick process to add the PDF to your account, send you your e-mail, and print your postage.
Again, next month, hopefully, we'll be able to set up two queues so that the international folks can be processed alongside the domestic orders.
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Chief Technical Officer
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If only my parents had named me A. Aaason :)
By the way, there's no alphabetical component to this process. We primarily prioritize by package contents, shipping method and destination; beyond that, it's whatever order the database returns answers, which is more-or-less unpredictable (not truly random—just really, really complex).
Again, next month, hopefully, we'll be able to set up two queues so that the international folks can be processed alongside the domestic orders.
Looking forward to that! :-D
That seems to be one of the biggest beefs international customers have, that a lot of them have felt delegated to 2nd rank citizens/customers (to use a harsh parable), even though a lot of them have signed up as charter subscribers a long time before some of the domestic (US) non-charter customers.Edit: I'm still thinking that there might be an easier way to do all of this, but admittedly can't think of anything at the moment. I wonder if this is also the way that other online stores (e.g. Amazon.com) go through the orders? Or maybe they just have more staffers to sort through it all. ;-)
When I say "when we look at your order," I mean "when your order comes up in the queue." And when your order comes up, we do exactly what you suggest, though in a slightly different order: we charge your card, give you access to the PDF, send you the confirmation e-mail, and then print your label and customs form. It's just that it takes time to get through the queue.
OK, thanks. I suppose I am just frustrated it is taking so long. The fact that (as pointed out on another thread) a lot of the holdup has to do with visa / mastercard rules doesn't mean it sucks dogs balls any less.
Although, if you give us access to the pdf before you do the customs orders, why is there more of a holdup for international subscribers than US? Is it because you can't / don't want a big stack of international orders charged but sitting around your warehouse waiting to be fulfilled? Or you need to wait for the previous order to be completely printed before you can move onto the next?
I know you guys are working as hard as you can, it is just frustrating it is nearly 2 weeks after you announced you had the actual books (so you have obviously had the pdf for longer), and I still don't have access to the pdf. I was planning on starting this this arvo, looks like I'll have to run something else insted.
That seems to be one of the biggest beefs international customers have, that a lot of them have felt delegated to 2nd rank citizens/customers (to use a harsh parable), even though a lot of them have signed up as charter subscribers a long time before some of the domestic (US) non-charter customers.
Exactly. The worst part of this rigmarole was knowing I was among the first to jump on board (on April 21), but was relegated to be among the last to receive the PDF just because I don't live in the US. I can deal with Paizo rewarding customers who sign up for more stuff than Pathfinder by processing them first, but not this.
I've finally got my PDF now, so I'm partially appeased. I'll be fully appeased when PF#2 reaches me at the same time as US subscribers.
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Chief Technical Officer
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OK, thanks. I suppose I am just frustrated it is taking so long. The fact that (as pointed out on another thread) a lot of the holdup has to do with visa / mastercard rules doesn't mean it sucks dogs balls any less.
To be clear, the Visa/MC rules are not the holdup. They were mentioned only because they're one reason why we can't charge cards before we ship. But as I mentioned above, the bigger reason is because it's not the act of shipping that takes the most time; it's the act of going through the queue. Everything we do to the order once we charge your card happens really quickly.
Although, if you give us access to the pdf before you do the customs orders, why is there more of a holdup for international subscribers than US? Is it because you can't / don't want a big stack of international orders charged but sitting around your warehouse waiting to be fulfilled? Or you need to wait for the previous order to be completely printed before you can move onto the next?
It's because with US orders, it's easy to print thousands of labels. But with international shipments, we have to print a thousand labels from one printer and a thousand customs forms from another printer, and then make sure that label for a given order gets joined up with the customs form for that exact same order, and they stay together throughout the rest of the process. (That's complicated by the fact that the forms come out a lot slower than the labels.)
For this first one, we decided to handle it one package at a time so that there's no risk of getting it wrong, but it's clear that that's too slow, so we're working on a more clever way to keep those two items united. (And more importantly, we'll figure a way to process them simultaneously with the US orders instead of after the US orders. That means getting some new hardware, and writing some code to ensure that processing two queues instead of one doesn't allow bad things to happen.)
It's because with US orders, it's easy to print thousands of labels. But with international shipments, we have to print a thousand labels from one printer and a thousand customs forms from another printer, and then make sure that label for a given order gets joined up with the customs form for that exact same order, and they stay together throughout the rest of the process. (That's complicated by the fact that the forms come out a lot slower than the labels.)
For this first one, we decided to handle it one package at a time so that there's no risk of getting it wrong, but it's clear that that's too slow, so we're working on a more clever way to keep those two items united. (And more importantly, we'll figure a way to process them simultaneously with the US orders instead of after the US orders. That means getting some new hardware, and writing some code to ensure that processing two queues instead of one doesn't allow bad things to happen.)
Thanks for the update. It's just beyond frustrating that in this day and age, access to a pdf (which should be able to be automated) is held up due to the limitations of physically processing the order.
It's now 4.22 pm on Friday 22nd August and no PDF. I'm going home soon in no expectation that I'll receive an email over the weekend.
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If it's any consolation, we US residents with APO addresses are in the same boat. Customs is pretty ridiculous. Nonetheless, I have faith this'll all work out better next time. I'm still pumped that we're getting a free PDF of the book!
"Always look on the briiight side of life! do-dee-dee-doo-dee-do-deedoo!"
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True, true. I know Paizo is a small outfit and isn't Amazon, and I'm getting the books at a discount. But I have a PbP lined up which I am DM'ing, and all the characters have been created for ages. I know we can all wait, and have no choice under the circumstances, but it is frustrating when the players who subscribe all have a copy (being mostly in the US) and the DM doesn't. Infact, they probably have their hard copies too by now.
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Given that international post means overseas customers will receive their orders at least a week after US subscribers, it would be nice if international orders were processed first, and US orders processed while overseas orders were in transit. That way we should all receive our printed copies at roughly the same time.
Just a thought.
You all know you'd be holding Pathfinder now if they didn't have to run to the computer every 5 minutes to answer the "Where's my Pathfinder?!?" whines, right?
I take it you have your copy?
The PDF, yeah, but I haven't done much more than skim it. If I can't read it in the tub, it's of no consequence. It's not like if my USPS driver went under 55 she'd explode and I'd lose my print copy (in retrospect, this sentence makes no sense, but it amuses me, so it stays). I can wait.
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Yeah, a bit different here as you will get your hardcopy fairly hot on the heels of your pdf, whereas mine is probably 2 weeks or so away even by the time I get the magic email. Personally, I'm a big fan of the book format, but I have committed to running a game with it and could really do with getting my hands on a version, any version.
Hmm, true, but none of that invalidates the prior statement.
I'm thinking two weeks is a stretch, BUT, depending on Paizo's resale policy, I'd gladly forward my copy for the cost of International Overnight plus cost and then wait for another. I'm pretty laid back, to the point that driving to the Post Office and waiting in line sounds like a real pain in the butt, so this offer is less trivial than it appears. Of course, then you'd eventually have two copies, but c’este la vie.
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Thanks for the offer, but I expect to get it in the next few days. The main gripe is that Paizo built us all up into a frenzy of anticipation, and is now sending out the international copies
so
slowly
and failed to inform us it would be like this. If I expected this from the outset, I would be unbothered. As in all these things, it is a failure to communicate effectively that winds up the customers. And failing to send out the electronic version of the thing because they need to fill in manual customs forms boggles the mind. Vic has explained why in as much that is the way the process works. But there has to be a better way. And I don't think our queries are having much impact on the speed of the process.
This is just a rehash of other comments, so adds very little to the whole thing. But the fact that you have your copy presumably leaves you in a rather more chilled position than those of us unfortunate enough to live outside the US. We have also had to contend with the very late arrivals of Dragon and Dungeon becuase of the supplier they use to post out the magazines from the UK. It is has been incredibly frustrating to see over the last year or two seeing people talking for weeks about the mags when we didn't even have them - some of us haven't even seen Dungeon 149, nevermind Pathfinder. Paizo are calling the shots now and are not using the same firm now. But we just seem to be getting more of the same - seeing a thread entitled "Now we are all reading Pathfinder" certainly doesn't help either.
Still nothing... and still no Dungeon 149, or even 150 or Dragon 359 either...
Have to agree with Aubrey here. The marketing for Pathfinder has been excellent, deliberately creating anticipation and getting customers keyed up for the release. All sensible, and it all goes towards (I hope) driving up sales.
But, the very slow turnaround on international orders effectively squanders that marketing effort for those customers as the transaction between Paizo and the customer becomes negative.
My primary reason for signing up as a charter subscriber was time-based; I don't have much time to visit gaming stores; I like electronic products because of their immediacy. A subscription to me, is valuable because I don't have to spend any time to get the products I've paid for - it just happens automatically. The product is released, I get an email, I get the download - lovely. Except of courser for the fact that it doesn't work like that. (The physical book is really just a bonus for me, not where my focus is).
Were putative customers to ask me "should I subscribe?" I would say don't bother - it's a load of aggravation, and the actual amount of time difference between getting a subscription pdf and just buying it is really minimal, sure you save some money, but your customer experience will actually be better if you wait for the release of the pdf and buy that instead.
I know Paizo take note of feedback, I know they're more than aware that they need to address this. Mostly I'm venting, but I hope it provides them with some insight into what adds value to their products & services for a segment of their customers.
I think Paizo should really consider to offer to there customers the possibility of buying/suscribing for the PDF only (without having to wait for international shipping).
Seriously, I don't really need hardcopy anymore and buy most of my rpg material in pdf format only (mostly Tru20 and Mutants & Masterminds stuff). For most rpg game, i buy a physical copy of the rulebook + screen and buy the rest in pdf when available. Am i the only one doign this?
And paying an additional 5$ for shipping a 13.99$ (35% of the cost) magazine/book bug me a little bit and that's the main reason I will cancel my Pathfinder actual suscription and wait for the pdf release (anyway, it seem I will receive my pdf at the same time it will be available to everyone)...
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You all know you'd be holding Pathfinder now if they didn't have to run to the computer every 5 minutes to answer the "Where's my Pathfinder?!?" whines, right?
You know, that really ticks me off. "Whine"! Who the #$#$ is whining here? I get so sick of posters who call legitimate customer service complaints "whining". These people have a right to express their concerns. Paizo staff members are addressing their concerns in a professional and courteous manner. Then some trolling poster comes along to call the concerned customers whiners.
Happens all the time on other boards. I'd rather not see it here. I'd rather support our overseas brothers and sisters during the launch of an important product in Paizo's life. Your post does absolutely nothing but increase ill will towards Paizo's community.I appreciate that Paizo is trying to improve its' overseas customers' experience with Pathfinder 2 and hope that you guys continue to demonstrate understanding and patience with what I'm sure is a frustrating experience.
Reckless
Random whining about being called a whiner.
Switch to decaf bro.
Hmm, true, but none of that invalidates the prior statement.
I'm thinking two weeks is a stretch, BUT, depending on Paizo's resale policy, I'd gladly forward my copy for the cost of International Overnight plus cost and then wait for another. I'm pretty laid back, to the point that driving to the Post Office and waiting in line sounds like a real pain in the butt, so this offer is less trivial than it appears. Of course, then you'd eventually have two copies, but c’este la vie.
Well, if you're thinking two weeks is a stretch you'd be utterly wrong. For those of us not living in the US nor in the UK (the UK has faster shipping from the US than the rest of e.g. Europe) it's actually closer to 3+ weeks for the actual book to get here. Don't speculate on things you have absolutely no idea about, it only makes you look even more clueless.
Furthermore, your smug comments twice in this thread doesn't help the situation AT ALL! It's, however, obvious that you don't care since you were called out on it once already and chose to reply with a snide comment.
Well, if you're thinking two weeks is a stretch you'd be utterly wrong.
If you really cared about getting Pathfinder on time you'd relocate.
It's, however, obvious that you don't care since you were called out on it once already and chose to reply with a snide comment.
That, sir, is where you're wrong; I cared enough to post "three" snarky comments (including this one).
----My offer still stands, by the way, but it looks like Global Express Guaranteed 3 day to Denmark is $58 (ish)
Do not feed the troll.
No Dungeon 150, No Dragon 359, and no idea when the situation may be resolved.
No response from Paizo as to how/when they are going to even try and resolve it.
No e-mail about Pathfinder as yet either.
Paizo are going down and down in my estimations in terms of customer service over the last 2 weeks. Shame.
*Grumble grumble* I haven't even heard back from Customer Service regarding the mail I sent early yesterday (have to change my credit card for this order since my wallet was stolen), so I fear it'll be even longer still before I am finally processed (or rather, my order is, not me in person... I know someone would jump on that if I didn't mention it! :-p)
Just responded to your email! We're pretty swamped right now, and I apologize for how long it took! *scurries back to email*
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WE KNOW YOU'RE PISSED OFF.
WE WANT THIS TO BE BETTER TOO.
THIS IS OUR FIRST TIME DOING THIS.
WE ARE LEARNING FROM OUR MISTAKES.
WE WILL FIX IT AS SOON AS WE CAN.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE.
I'm sorry if I came off sounding like that. I know that you are doing the best that you can. I'm not really pissed. I'm just impatient. Reading all that everybody's saying about Pathfinder and not being able to see it with my own eye's it's almost to much. But I know that my (im)patience will be rewarded eventually. Sorry for coming off as pissed, but that really isn't how I intended it to be taken.
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Chief Technical Officer
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Galuf,
That wasn't directed at you. That was just frustration from the fact that this thread is filled with posts from us saying that we acknowledge there are problems, and are working to fix them, yet people still keep telling us how much we suck. It's kind of hard to take, and makes me see why some companies choose not to host or participate in public forums like this.
WE KNOW YOU'RE PISSED OFF.
WE WANT THIS TO BE BETTER TOO.
THIS IS OUR FIRST TIME DOING THIS.
WE ARE LEARNING FROM OUR MISTAKES.
WE WILL FIX IT AS SOON AS WE CAN.
THANK YOU FOR YOUR PATIENCE.
Thanks Vic. I think I speak for all (at least most) of us still waiting for our pdfs, that we are well aware of this, but that doesn't actually do much to remove the frustration that we won't have access to the pdf till at least TWO WEEKS after your initial (admittedly tentatively) posted release date.*
This frustration is compounded by the fact that access to the pdf seems to be held up by a manual link in what (at least to most people) should really be an automated process. Seriously, it has been a week now, I'm hoping that is a reflection of the popularity of Pathfinder (which bodes well for the future of Paizo), and not a reflection of the (in)efficiency of Paizo's warehouse procedure (which would bode not so well.)
Adding to this frustration is the fact it is now almost certain, that US subscribers will have access to the Hardcopy, before we even get access to the pdf. Living in Down Under, I am used to paying more and waiting due to shipping (and sucking the conversion rate as well), and part of the reason for subscribing was to get access to the pdf ASAP.
So basically you just have a lot of frustrated customers, who are dying to get there hands on your product, so they can actually see what everyone is raving about. I think that most of the ranting and angst in this thread is born out of this frustration, as overseas subscribers, we are already shafted by currency conversion, extended shipping times, and increased shipping (which are all outside the ability of Paizo to do anything about), who hoped the pdf would go at least some way to offsetting those minuses.
So please don't take any of this thread too personally. I really appreciate the work everyone at Paizo does, from the guys who write / edit the adventures, to the guys stuffing the packages, and even to the accounting guys who must work wonders to get this awesome product to us at such great prices. But sometimes, you just need the opportunity to rant / vent when frustration reaches boiling point.
I really hope you do improve things for the next issue. It seems part of the holdup is that things have been so busy at Paizo for the last 4 months or so, it seems everyone has been flat out like a lizard drinking. I am trusting the lead in to the ext issue will be a bit more relaxed and sedate (and possibly approaching normal)
Summarry of massive post for those who don't want to read it all
Yeah, we're frustrated, and know your working hard to solve it, but that doesn't remove the frustration, and so we are basically just venting / ranting, and trusting you will actually improve things for next time.
*I'm sure I read somewhere that you received Pathfinder 1, and were originally expecting it to ship on Monday 13th August, but I can't find the link now. regardless, you at least indicated you have had the physical book for that long, and therefore the pdf for much longer.
Galuf,
That wasn't directed at you. That was just frustration from the fact that this thread is filled with posts from us saying that we acknowledge there are problems, and are working to fix them, yet people still keep telling us how much we suck. It's kind of hard to take, and makes me see why some companies choose not to host or participate in public forums like this.
It seems I cross posted with you above, but I really appreciate the choice Paizo makes to actually communicate and interact with their customers. It seems this time (perhaps for the first time), you guys were caught out with how much the process would actually involve, and so things aren't working as smoothly as you would like, which leads to you guys being frustrated as well.
We all appreciate the effort you are giving, and your feedback and communication.
So this post is not a complete rehash of what I just said, I did have one more question.
THIS IS OUR FIRST TIME DOING THIS
From quote like this and others, it is my impression that this is fundamentally different to Dungeon and Dragon Subscriptions? Because i would have thought that you guys actually have quite a bit of experience with shipping a large number of subscriptions every month?
*Grumble grumble* I haven't even heard back from Customer Service regarding the mail I sent early yesterday (have to change my credit card for this order since my wallet was stolen), so I fear it'll be even longer still before I am finally processed (or rather, my order is, not me in person... I know someone would jump on that if I didn't mention it! :-p)Just responded to your email! We're pretty swamped right now, and I apologize for how long it took! *scurries back to email*
Having just gotten off the phone with the lovely Ms.(?) Young, I just wanted to add (as mevers has already started doing) that the complaints aired here are not in any way directed personally at anyone from Paizo and that we really are grateful for all the scurrying you do to appease us grumpy customers.
You should just stop making such fantastic products so we wouldn't be as eager to get our hands on them... no wait! Don't do that! Continue doing what you do best! :-D
And I also think that it's fantastic that we actually have an opportunity to communicate so closely with the whole Paizo staff, even if it's mostly complaints in this thread. :-)
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Chief Technical Officer
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...it is my impression that this is fundamentally different to Dungeon and Dragon Subscriptions? Because i would have thought that you guys actually have quite a bit of experience with shipping a large number of subscriptions every month?
Magazine subscriptions were shipped from our printer in the midwest. We sent them a spreadsheet, and they did the rest.
GameMastery Modules subscriptions were the first big subscription project we undertook in-house, and they went as easily as we could have hoped... but there are ten times as many Pathfinder subscribers as Modules subscribers.
We thought the manual step, which is the easiest solution to the Customs form problem, and the one with the least potential for error, would be fast enough. We were wrong. We'll automate it.