|
Rhyming lyrics spoken out of synch with non-instrumental music are not confined to rap, either--nor do all rap songs feature them--but they're hallmarks of the genre nonetheless. Labeling any song that contains rapping as "rap" or "rap-like" is patently absurd to a hip-hop fan... but not to someone who is comparing those styles to Baroque classical, or to blues.
So willful ignorance excuses mislabeling art, then? And Bob Dylan's Subterranean Homesick Blues is also rap?
Absurdly over-large weapons are a Manga hallmark--even though not every Manga publication necessarily features them. Nor does the fact that they're no longer confined to that genre in any way remove their association with it.
Hallmark? The weapons of Sanzo from Rurouni Kenshin and Gatz from Berserk are not exactly your typical examples of weapons in manga. How many other characters in those titles wielded oversized weapons, how about in Lodoss War (and its spinoffs), Bastard!!, etc.? These things are the exceptions, not the rule. It's no more a hallmark of manga than the oversized greatsword on Elmore's cover of the D&D Companion's Set is a hallmark of D&D art.
Perhaps these images could be construed as manga-inspired:
That's about it in my honest opinion, after glancing through the covers and remembering what I can from the blog. WAR's work reminds me more of American comics than anything else. If the tired comparison to manga must be made, I'd make it between his work and Masamune Shirow's. The level of detail in both their art is astounding.
Chibi Merisiel! (Unfinished colors...I'll get to it later...)
The upshot of all this talk is that I have learned a lot about manga art, which has a tremendous amount of variety actually.
How about the Goblins, can we call them Manga Goblins?
Manga art, old fasioned art. Whatever. So far I like what I see.
BTW, there are some fierce depictions of Conan in the new Del Rey editions (Gary Gianni). In Bloody Crown (w/ Hour of the Dragon), I reaaally like pp.13, 35, 181, 283. Even the sketchy black ink depictions are grittier, exude more energy, than most of these overworked Photoshop renderings.
I think this illustrates the crux of this debate--in my opinion Gianni's work is "just okay" at best. I'm not very likely to even pick up a book with his style of art, as to me it looks unfinished and/or crude compared to folks like Reynolds. If Paizo switched Pathfinder entirely to something like that (or to something like Downer, to reference an existing Dungeon art style--I know there are Downer fans, I'm just not one of them), I'd consider it a step backward in the art for the series. James said it earlier, but basically we all have different tastes in art.
Creative Director
|
Chibi Merisiel! (Unfinished colors...I'll get to it later...)
That... is awesome. Well done!
So willful ignorance excuses mislabeling art, then? And Bob Dylan's Subterranean Homesick Blues is also rap?
Random insults aside, a number of us note that the one style clearly influences the next. That's not to say that they're identical. Look at it this way: Leone's "Fistful of Dollars" is a remake of Kurasawa's "Yojimbo." But "Yojimbo" itself borrows heavily from Dashiell Hammett's Red Harvest--it's the same story, just in a different time and place. Hammett was therefore an influence on Leone, even if indirectly--the story lines still have more similarity than can be attributed to coincidence, or to other influences. Did Dylan indirectly influence rap? I won't discount the possibility.
The weapons of Sanzo from Rurouni Kenshin and Gatz from Berserk are not exactly your typical examples of weapons in manga. How many other characters in those titles wield oversized weapons, how about in Lodoss War (and its spinoffs), Bastard!!, etc.? These things are the exceptions, not the rule.
I thought my basic point was clear, and your obviously in-depth knowledge of the genre supports it. If you'd like to count individual exceptions, well, I wouldn't stop you even if I could--a great many people here are clearly interested, and will profit from your insight. You'll note that I've referred to none of your posts as "absurd" or "willfully ignorant," even though our opinions differ; an alternative viewpoint can still have merit.
|
|
Chibi Merisiel! (Unfinished colors...I'll get to it later...)The link is not working...
It's working! It's working! Very cool!
I Love the art. One of the best things about the Dungeon/Dragon magazines was the fantastic art in each issue. The art was better then all their RPG competitors. The art in Pathfinder so far has been brilliant.
Will we see more Ramon Perez in the pathfinder books?
I see he has some pieces in the Pathfinder players book. I really like his work (WAR's still best though). REALLY liked the stuff hes done for Mutants and Masterminds but his fantasy stuff is top notch as well.
|
|
Random insults aside, a number of us note that the one style clearly influences the next.
That wasn't an insult. It wasn't even directed at you, personally. It was directed at the statement, "Labeling any song that contains rapping as "rap" or "rap-like" is patently absurd to a hip-hop fan... but not to someone who is comparing those styles to Baroque classical, or to blues." You seem to be attempting to excuse making bold statements or speaking knowingly about a subject if one is largely ignorant or has no willingness to learn about the subject.
That's not to say that they're identical. Look at it this way: Leone's "Fistful of Dollars" is a remake of Kurasawa's "Yojimbo." But "Yojimbo" itself borrows heavily from Dashiell Hammett's Red Harvest--it's the same story, just in a different time and place. Hammett was therefore an influence on Leone, even if indirectly--the story lines still have more similarity than can be attributed to coincidence, or to other influences. Did Dylan indirectly influence rap? I won't discount the possibility.
The possible influences of Dylan on the whole of rap (which would be terribly amusing if true) are a far cry from the accusation of the Paizo artwork being "manga-y." That argument revolves around the artwork sharing visible similarities to elements indicative of the manga art style. Many of these proposed elements are neither hallmarks of the manga art style, nor did they originate with the art style.
I thought my basic point was clear, and your obviously in-depth knowledge of the genre supports it. If you'd like to count individual exceptions, well, I wouldn't stop you even if I could--a great many people here are clearly interested, and will profit from your insight.
My point, though, is that you're projecting the individual exceptions onto the whole of manga and holding them up as "hallmarks" of the art style. They aren't.
You'll note that I've referred to none of your posts as "absurd" or "willfully ignorant," even though our opinions differ; an alternative viewpoint can still have merit.
You seem to misinterpret me. I have referred to a specific argument of yours as "absurd" (and I've hopefully explained the "willfully ignorant" comment better, above). I apologize if you take my comments about your arguments as a commentary about you as a person or your viewpoints--that is not my intent.
You seem to be attempting to excuse making bold statements or speaking knowingly about a subject if one is largely ignorant or has no willingness to learn about the subject
Ah! You misanderstand; I admit ignorance in some areas, but don't mind learning. But I also know in most areas there are people "in the know" who contemptuously dismiss things that seem obvious to all the poor benighted "outsiders" (e.g., my brother, when talking about anything vaguely psychology-related).
The possible influences of Dylan on the whole of rap (which would be terrible amusing if true) are a far cry from the accusation of the Paizo artwork being "manga-y." That argument revolves around the artwork sharing visible similarities to elements indicative of the manga art style. Many of these proposed elements are neither hallmarks of the manga art style, nor did they originate with the art style... My point, though, is that you're projecting the individual exceptions onto the whole of manga and holding them up as "hallmarks" of the art style. They aren't.
I'll warrent you're 100% correct; you seem to know the genre. But to we "outsiders," those are the things the untrained eye picks up and remembers. I've flipped through a bunch of Manga--as you and I will both agree, by no means a representative sample--and come away with an impression of huge eyes, huge feet, huge weapons, pink or blue hair, and most noteably, little attempt at perspective, texture, or similar subtle elements (the characters and action get all the focus). Doubtless these things are common to just a few of the more popular publications--but if you randomly pick one off a shelf, it'll be one of the popular ones, more likely than not. Nor am I the only one to pick up on these elements in particular. These may be exceptions, but they're perceived by many of the uninitiated to be the rule--much in the way non-fans assume that all rap is about "smoking ho's with my uzi" (again, an exception that many take to be the norm), or that all blues sounds exactly like Muddy Waters (same deal). To some extent, you've got to excuse some ignorance in your audience; not every Paizo fan is automatically a Manga fan, after all--and even if the similarities are a false perception based on some specific outliers, it's still quite strong.
In the interest of correct speaking, though, I'd happily change the adjective "Manga-y" to "Yukiokio-y" or whatever, if you could tell me which particular comics feature the elements I described above.
You seem to misinterpret me. I have referred to a specific argument of yours as "absurd" (and I've hopefully explained the "willfully ignorant" comment better, above). I apologize if you take my comments about your arguments as a commentary about you as a person or your viewpoints--that is not my intent.
No apology necessary--I indeed misinterpreted the thrust of your remarks, and took your point to be contempt for anyone who failed to share your enthusiasm for these particular art styles. For that, it is I should apologize. I'm unapologetically a big Paizo fan, but not necessarily a comics fan--Eastern or Western.
Caldwell has turned in some beautiful work. Loved most of Elmore's work, too (though I favour his line art). I can't stand Easley's work.
I'm not a huge fan of any of the three, who all typify what I can only describe as "that old dragon magazine/Dragonlance" style. It's OK in small doses, as are WAR et al., but like Mrs. McArtor and Jacobs have said, a bunch of variety is far preferrable to a "set" style--that way there's something for everyone. I like Sardinha a lot because his stuff doesn't even vaguely resemble any of the ones we've just mentioned. Shoot, I'd even vote for a special edition "Order of the Stick"-illustrated low-level kobold adventure... Understandably, it's easiest for a publisher to work with a known, popular, reliable "regular" contractor, rather than with a bunch of new people every month, but a person can still wish.
|
Creative Director
|
By the way, are we keeping the "all-iris and no sclera" look for the elven eyes? I have to say, I am not a fan of that look and the player in my group who usually plays elves is not a fan either...
Perhaps. Of the five elves we've illustrated so far (one in Pathfinder 1, one in 2, two in3, and Merisiel), only Merisiel has the large irises. Personally, I like the look a lot; it helps to set them apart a bit more from humans, and matches the fact that they get bonuse on Search and Spot checks (their large ears already account for the bonus they get to Listen checks).
So at this point, it's not the rule. It might become the rule in the future, or it might just be a certain subrace of elf that we develop later on. At this point, though, only 20% of the elves we've ordered art for have eyes like that.
Of course... in your world, you get to make that call. :)
|
their large ears already account for the bonus they get to Listen checks
Ehh... the size of the pinna (auricula) isn't really what determines how well you hear. The pinna is certainly important as it acts as a funnel to collect sound, but the pinna is no way essential for hearing (but it does help to determine the direction a sound is coming from). The long point at the end of elven ears seem to have no real function.
It is the inner ear which actually detects sound and it is actually the brain and central nervous system that "hears". Sound waves are perceived by the brain through the firing of nerve cells in the auditory portion of the central nervous system. The ear changes sound pressure waves from the outside world into a signal of nerve impulses sent to the brain.
If elves have good hearing it is because they have more "hears" in the ear which detect sound than humans do, or they their brains are capable of processing sound information better than humans (or both).
BTW, does this mean drow in Golarion have giant red eyes?
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
So at this point, it's not the rule. It might become the rule in the future, or it might just be a certain subrace of elf that we develop later on. At this point, though, only 20% of the elves we've ordered art for have eyes like that.
Of course... in your world, you get to make that call. :)
Well... since Meri is part of the elves who live in the cities... maybe it's a city elf thing? Dunno how that'd come about, though...
Finished, colored version of Chibi-Merisiel.
All Hail Hypno-Elf!
Finished, colored version of Chibi-Merisiel.
Cute, Lillith. Very cute :)
First of all, in relation to the manga topic, if you ever include chibi-style artwork in any of your adventures or other related books I'll have to send it back and demand a refund immediately (not a criticism of Lilith, I just loathe the style)! If that's your thing, I'm sure you can find a copy of the "Big Eyes, Small Mouths RPG" out there somewhere.
Second, someone mentioned preferring Gary Gianni's artwork (had to look the guy up) to the current Pathfinder art... erm, that would certainly be a huge step backward in terms of art progression. His work reminds mere of cheap 1st edition artwork or artwork from old publishers of other RPGs with little to no art budget.
Thirdly, WHERE'S EVA WIDERMANN??? I know she's been getting more exposure in WotC books, so I hope that doesn't mean that she has gone to "the other side" and thus out of reach for you guys re: Wesley's remark about being different from WotC staples.
Fourthly, a comment on some of the art in the Player's Guide... I wasn't aware that padded trenchcoats, cargo pants w. belt loops and combat boots (ugh!?!) were in fashion in the fantasy world of Golarion...
I also liked the sketch of the Varisian dancer more than the finished coloured version.
And finally, I still don't know why Darren M. A. Calvert (DMAC) isn't getting published a lot more...
For what it's worth, I like Gary Gianni a lot. His painting is less polished and painted with a heavier hand than some other fantasy artists, but that's what I find appealing about his work. And, for me, it fits the tone of those Conan stories better than the super polished beefcake Conans that Vallejo had painted where he's got the body of a professional bodybuilder. Gianni's more raw, brutal, unpolished. And if you like pen and ink stuff in the vein of George Clement Coll, he's one of the last guys to do it. His covers for the Dark Horse books of Witchcraft, Hauntings and the Dead are pretty excellent, in my opinion. Gary Gianni and Greg Manchess, illustrators with a more impressionistic style, take a little examination to really appreciate sometimes. Just because the right nostril isn't perfectly rendered and photorealistic doesn't mean it isn't a good piece or that they aren't great artists. Not that anyone said as much here, but that's my opinion. Stuff like that sometimes breathes and lives more as a painting, with more action, than stuff that's more fussed over, which can look stilted and frozen.
|
|
Ah! You misanderstand; I admit ignorance in some areas, but don't mind learning. But I also know in most areas there are people "in the know" who contemptuously dismiss things that seem obvious to all the poor benighted "outsiders" (e.g., my brother, when talking about anything vaguely psychology-related).
Mea culpa. It's easy to forget that not everyone immediately knows the basics of manga even though it's become more prolific. I suppose it comes from being surrounded by others of similar interests.
I'll warrent you're 100% correct; you seem to know the genre. But to we "outsiders," those are the things the untrained eye picks up and remembers. I've flipped through a bunch of Manga--as you and I will both agree, by no means a representative sample--and come away with an impression of huge eyes, huge feet, huge weapons, pink or blue hair, and most noteably, little attempt at perspective, texture, or similar subtle elements (the characters and action get all the focus).
Some of these things are part and parcel with manga/anime.
The Big Eyes: Pretty ubiquitous except in rare cases. Inherited from Betty Boop (seriously), this feature is usually present in characters the audience is supposed to empathize with (heroes, children, innocent bystanders, etc.). World weary heroes, lone wolf-types and villains typically have smaller eyes.
Huge Feet: Typically only in the more slapsticky, comedy types. Not a big fan of this, myself. Thankfully it's not common outside a subset of manga.
Huge Weapons: Not really common. Outside of Berserk, Rurouni Kenshin and Inuyasha (I forgot about that one last time around), I've only really seen this in video games unless wielded by similarly oversized characters or monsters. In Berserk, an oversized sword is wielded by the main character (who trained with an adult-sized greatsword since childhood, thus, I suppose, having a similarly scaled sword as an adult) and is his trademark. In Rurouni Kenshin, an oversized sword is used by a secondary character and is promptly destroyed soon after the character is introduced (the character goes on as an unarmed fighter for the remainder of the series). In Inuyasha, the title character uses a magical sword that transforms from a typical katana into an oversized, curved thing (bleh!). Most weapons used by most characters tend to of realistic size or the same slightly exaggerated size typical in Western fantasy imagery (be it Frezetta, Elmore, Easley, etc.).
Pink or Blue Hair: So very common. I believe this originated in anime (as most manga is B&W) to help differentiate characters with similar hair styles or to emphasize the main characters. It's less common in manga/anime that tries to be more realistic, but even then you'll see it quite a bit.
Perspective, Texture, Etc.: This varies broadly across manga and their artists--sometimes even within the same manga.
One of the really defining things in manga/anime is that, no matter the level of detail or realism, the characters are always a bit "cartoony" (especially in anime). This serves multiple purposes--ease of drawing from panel to panel (or cell to cell), less detail gets in the way of dialog and story much less*, and it resents the reader with a more iconic image to mentally grasp onto and carry.
* Scott McCloud, in Understanding Comics: The Invisible Art, discusses the nature of graphic detail versus prose detail (amongst many other things) in comics--both Western and Eastern. This book is a great read, and provides a great insight into the art of comics (again, regardless of national origin).
Doubtless these things are common to just a few of the more popular publications--but if you randomly pick one off a shelf, it'll be one of the popular ones, more likely than not. Nor am I the only one to pick up on these elements in particular. These may be exceptions, but they're perceived by many of the uninitiated to be the rule--much in the way non-fans assume that all rap is about "smoking ho's with my uzi" (again, an exception that many take to be the norm),
I'm sure it doesn't help that overenthusiastic fanboi types (and we all know they exist in every aspect of fandom) will harp repetitiously about their favorite manga/anime until you want to stab them in the eye with a Greyhound bus.* Oh, how I loathe Gundam for this very reason. :)
or that all blues sounds exactly like Muddy Waters (same deal).
I like blues. Yeah, I know that has nothing to do with anything else, but whatever. Queue some Howling Wolf. :D
To some extent, you've got to excuse some ignorance in your audience; not every Paizo fan is automatically a Manga fan, after all--and even if the similarities are a false perception based on some specific outliers, it's still quite strong.
I'm okay with the ignorance, it's just the willful ignorance (let me preface that I'm not accusing you of such) that happens from time to time where people dismiss, disparage or disregard the artistic merit of manga/anime when they're either wholly ignorant of manga/anime or because they've seen Pokemon or Yu-Gi-Oh. That gets so frustrating you want to shove all four volumes of Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind down their throat (in the literal, not figurative, fashion) until they choke on it* or eviscerate them with paper cuts from a flurry of hurled manga.*
* Everybody reading this, please note that all suggestions of violence are not intended seriously (no animals were harmed in the writing of this post). I hate having to put a disclaimer on the obvious, but just in case someone gets wigged out.
In the interest of correct speaking, though, I'd happily change the adjective "Manga-y" to "Yukiokio-y" or whatever, if you could tell me which particular comics feature the elements I described above.
Well, they're more a kaleidescope of different, sometimes disparate, elements--some of which aren't are too unique to the art style.
No apology necessary--I indeed misinterpreted the thrust of your remarks, and took your point to be contempt for anyone who failed to share your enthusiasm for these particular art styles. For that, it is I should apologize.
Ah, no biggie--it's far too easy to misinterpret others on the internet (I know I'm guilty of it, myself).
I have far to many interests that others don't share (RPGs, painting minis, linguistics, scifi, anime/manga, etc.) that I'd need to be pimp slapped if I got contemptuous over them. :D
I'm unapologetically a big Paizo fan, but not necessarily a comics fan--Eastern or Western.
Hey, if you're a Paizo fan, you're cool in my book. :)
|
|
I'm not a huge fan of any of the three, who all typify what I can only describe as "that old dragon magazine/Dragonlance" style.
For me, it's the nostalgia--when I first got the D&D Basic Set, Elmore's line art just fired the imagination.
It's OK in small doses, as are WAR et al., but like Mrs. McArtor and Jacobs have said, a bunch of variety is far preferrable to a "set" style--that way there's something for everyone.
So true, so true. Besides, if they didn't mix things up, we'd have less chance to be expose to the Next Cool Artist. ;)
I like Sardinha a lot because his stuff doesn't even vaguely resemble any of the ones we've just mentioned.
I'm not familiar with Sardinha.
Shoot, I'd even vote for a special edition "Order of the Stick"-illustrated low-level kobold adventure...
That would be a great laugh.
Understandably, it's easiest for a publisher to work with a known, popular, reliable "regular" contractor, rather than with a bunch of new people every month, but a person can still wish.
Indeed.
I like Sardinha a lot because his stuff doesn't even vaguely resemble any of the ones we've just mentioned.I'm not familiar with Sardinha.
The name didn't ring a bell with me either, so a quick google search turned up... Battle Duck!
Thanks Lilith!
You and your Chibi Rock.
I'm sure it doesn't help that overenthusiastic fanboi types (and we all know they exist in every aspect of fandom) will harp repetitiously about their favorite manga/anime until you want to stab them in the eye with a Greyhound bus.*
This image has scarred me for life--do you mind if I quote it sometime? :) Seriously, though--thanks for taking the time and effort to respond the way you did. I've learned some things, but just as importantly, I've enjoyed your conversation. Thanks, Azzy.
|
|
Perhaps. Of the five elves we've illustrated so far (one in Pathfinder 1, one in 2, two in3, and Merisiel), only Merisiel has the large irises. Personally, I like the look a lot; it helps to set them apart a bit more from humans, and matches the fact that they get bonuse on Search and Spot checks (their large ears already account for the bonus they get to Listen checks).
I like the look as well. Gives them a more fey appearance. And, to me, elves need to look fey. The eyes and larger ears give them that fey appearance that I like in my elves.
I like the look as well. Gives them a more fey appearance. And, to me, elves need to look fey. The eyes and larger ears give them that fey appearance that I like in my elves.
Should we go ahead and give 'em antennae while we're at it?
Ehh... the size of the pinna (auricula) isn't really what determines how well you hear. The pinna is certainly important as it acts as a funnel to collect sound, but the pinna is no way essential for hearing (but it does help to determine the direction a sound is coming from). The long point at the end of elven ears seem to have no real function.
Sexual selection.
They just think the big ears are hot!
I like the look as well. Gives them a more fey appearance. And, to me, elves need to look fey. The eyes and larger ears give them that fey appearance that I like in my elves.Should we go ahead and give 'em antennae while we're at it?
Although the antennae would work well as handles, I'm not sure that this would encourage the kind of activity that would result in procreation and thus sexually select the characteristic.
Umm. Excuse me, but was that too tasteless for this board?
|
|
This image has scarred me for life--do you mind if I quote it sometime? :)
Oh, please do. :D
Seriously, though--thanks for taking the time and effort to respond the way you did. I've learned some things, but just as importantly, I've enjoyed your conversation. Thanks, Azzy.
Likewise, I, too, have enjoyed the conversation. :)
Umm. Excuse me, but was that too tasteless for this board?I dunno.... tell you when I stop laughing....
allready laughing that long more than 40 minutes.
don't choke..
Yep, a troll he is.
I may not share your enthusasm for comics, but I have to agree with you on your assessment. It's almost like he's a huge Manga fan, trying to make sure that no one dares protest its use.
As for this chibi (WTF?), no offense to the artist, but, umm, no thanx.
Wasn't meant for you. :)