I'm actually liking the Pathfinder art thus far, though Merisiel is probably my least favorite. Of course, I like manga (though I'm also one of the ancients at 32...).
Just wondering, what style(s) do you prefer?
I'm actually liking the Pathfinder art thus far, though Merisiel is probably my least favorite. Of course, I like manga (though I'm also one of the ancients at 32...).
Just wondering, what style(s) do you prefer?
Wow you really just channeled your inner Dr. Cox . . .i mean reaaaaaally.
Scanning the artwork in your blog, my eyes nearly rolled outta their sockets! Guys, I understand this manga-style is popular and pervades all (kids just luuurve it), but reaaally...
Are artists unable to style themselves these days, preferring instead to pander to fashions and fads... or are they forced to by publishers?
Uncreative, unoriginal character concept art (even if high quality)... bothers me slightly. Luckily, only the writing and the roleplaying opportunities really matter to me.
But pahleaaase, try breaking from the mainstream manga mold anyway. I know you can do it!
Well I am one of those 32 year old gamer kids, and I just happen to "luuurve" the artwork that has been shown so far for the various Paizo products. Why is the work "uncreative and unoriginal"? Do you not feel that eastern/western comics are legitimate art, or do you simply prefer a more "realistic" approach?
Rather than disparage the work of Wayne Reynolds and the others, perhaps you could tell us what artwork you like. Go farther south on the blog and you'll find some Hou artwork that is a more "realistic" style--maybe you'll like that better. I happen to think both those and the rest of the artwork shown to date HAS BEEN AMAZING!
That said, what makes this manga-like? It's cartoony, yes, but I would say it's more similar to western comics than to eastern comics. Perhaps if we add some speedlines... ^_^
I would so kill for a superdeformed/chibi illo of the iconics! XD
Peace and love. :)
I would so kill for a superdeformed/chibi illo of the iconics! XD
Chibi I can do...and I just might.
I like the artwork that has been coming out in Pathfinder and Gamemastery products. That said, I would much prefer a more realistic style. The artwork on the Planet Stories line has been INCREDIBLE. I must say I've become a big Hou fan.
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Scanning the artwork in your blog, my eyes nearly rolled outta their sockets! Guys, I understand this manga-style is popular and pervades all (kids just luuurve it), but reaaally...
Yeah, all the new artwork is all so very manga-y... Um, no. Far cry from where I'm standing--and as a 32 year old, I've been reading manga for well over a decade. The large eyes and ears on Merisiel do not manga the style of the various Pathfinder artists make. Not even close.
Are artists unable to style themselves these days, preferring instead to pander to fashions and fads... or are they forced to by publishers?
Uncreative, unoriginal character concept art (even if high quality)... bothers me slightly. Luckily, only the writing and the roleplaying opportunities really matter to me.
Uncreative, unoriginal? As opposed to the dearth of art from the late 1e to the end of 2e? Oh please, this stuff is at least as creative and original as anything in the best parts of D&D's art history.
But pahleaaase, try breaking from the mainstream manga mold anyway. I know you can do it!
And I fail to see how this Merisiel can be roguish, what with all those bells and whistles dangling about and weighing her down. My suspension of disbelief took a hit, I gotta say!
Wow, two danglely bits off the left side of her hip and a bunch of knives. My goodness, however will she pick locks or hide in shadows? While the keys or thieves tools might impede moving silently, it's a lot easier to swallow than Ye Olde Chainmail Bikini or Giaganto Helmet Horns of yesteryear.
What do others think? Perhaps as an ancient thirty year old my sensibilities blah blah blah
Considering my sensibilities as an venerable thirty-two year old aren't offended by the artwork, it's more likely that it's something other than age. And 30's awfully young to start acting like a crotchety, old curmudgeon. :p
Sorry for the sarcasm, but when you start suggesting that the art shown thus far looks like a style of art that it doesn't look like, and then make additional, off-target or exaggerated critiques... bleh! Well, it brings out the worst in me.
I would so kill for a superdeformed/chibi illo of the iconics! XDChibi I can do...and I just might.
Doitdoitdoitdoitdoit... PLEASE! XD
ps, If we ever get images of the gods, that would make for great chibi material. :)
Uncreative, unoriginal character concept art (even if high quality)... bothers me slightly.
Nice first post... coming on the Paizo forums and calling their artwork uncreative and unoriginal.
I, being 33, happen to think that the quality of artwork in Paizo products is quite good (easily surpassing even WotC's artwork).
What would you consider "creative" and "original" artwork, if WAR's character concepts are not? I'd like to see where you're coming from...
Wayne Reynolds is famous for lavishly adorning his art with "anime" stylings. I've never found them anime at all, but that's what people say. A lot of people don't like fantasy with big flashy outfits and impossibly big swords. They like things realistic as possible it seems.
I like the Pathfinder art, and apparently, so do many of my fellow Paizonians. And that's good, cuz I wouldn't want them to change it cuz everyone hates it.
We use a lot of artists, some of whom use a more realistic style and some of whom use a more animated look. If it all looked the same it would get really boring.
Well, Mike. You COULD hire Lilith or James Keegan for some work. I am sure that they would appreciate the work and the exposure.
P.S. - I am enjoying the artwork as well. But then again, I am easy to please.
Creative Director
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One person's work of art is another person's trash. Over the past four plus years working on Dungeon, this has been quite apparent to me.
We're using the same artists and styles in Pathfinder as you've seen in Dungeon over the past several dozen issues; if you enjoyed the art in Dungeon... chances are you'll enjoy the art in Pathfinder and the GameMastery modules. There'll certainly be a variety of art styles, because as Mr. McArtor sagely said, variety is good.
I personally don't find Wayne's style too filled with anime/manga details, but rather far more realistic than the majority of anime/manga characters.
For example, you bemoan Merisiel's outfit, yet I find it incredibly realistic, far more so than your typical anime/manga fantasy character, who never seems to carry anything more than their clothing and occupation-related props like weapons or spellbooks. I'd actually expect a rogue to be wearing something similar to her outfit in real life.
And as for non-prettified characters, take a look at Valeros, he's no Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp, nor does he expressly look like there's much in the way of anime/manga styling to him.
I also find your (hopefully) sarcastic "because everybody luuurves it" to be in rather ill taste. People like Wayne Reynold's art because he's good, not because he does anime/manga characters. Hell, I wish I was that good, but I'm not, so I enjoy his and other artists in this community without getting too overly critical about their art style.
For instance, I enjoy Larry Elmore's art, though it is a little more cartoony and stylized, and Andrew Hou is good, although I think the general roughness of his art is a bit of a drawback (but not enough for me to complain about it).
I like the artwork that has been coming out in Pathfinder and Gamemastery products. That said, I would much prefer a more realistic style. The artwork on the Planet Stories line has been INCREDIBLE. I must say I've become a big Hou fan.
I have to second that. I like big Hoes too.
Oh wait, I read that wrong, but I still agree!
...hot!
Official website of Larry Elmore
I like them all, especially the model. I don't understand what the b@*$+ing is about.
FWIW, I love WAR's artwork. He's been quite prolific throught D&D source books and whatnot for several years now. And the style has remained constant, not some new manga-driven knock off. Just my opinion.
Oh and one more opinion. The whole point of this post seems very troll-driven. I'm always suspicious of a poster with no history (the guy's officially posted 2 times on these boards and both on this topic) who's very first post is inflammatory or complaining about something. But that's just me. I could be totally wront about this person.
I don't really like the more generic manga style, myself. But I don't really see that much of that in Dungeon or what I've seen in Pathfinder. Manga/comic book influenced? Yes. Derivitive? Not in my opinion. I don't see the gigantic eyes and tiny mouths that much. No blue gravity defying hair either, really.
Part of the "generic" or "derivitive" criticism may come from computer coloring in photoshop. As great as it is as a tool, if one doesn't go out of one's way to make a photoshop colored piece look handmade by adding blemishes/transparency/texture, etc. it will all look very similar and maybe a bit too perfect. Plus, considering that it's generally a month-long deadline for the art orders, it can be a bit difficult to get amazingly realistic paintings produced for interiors. I mean, if you're doing four or five images due in a month's time, you want them all to be of comparable quality. And it's a little easier to do that if you can streamline the process. A cover is a different thing, of course. One image, a two week or month-long deadline; one can spend a bit more time pursuing a more classical angle.
I'm impressed with James Ryman's (and other artists') work in the Maure Castle issue; all those paintings have a good level of polish as well as a good sense of economy.
No blue gravity defying hair either, really.I know! And I've been trying so hard to get it in, too! :(
Well, dangit, how about it? How about a GameMastery module inspired by all those stereotypes of anime. I'd play it! :D
Guys, I understand this manga-style is popular and pervades all (kids just luuurve it), but reaaally...
First off, turns out it's not just the kids. Take a look at the size of the manga section at any Barnes and Noble in comparison to the RPG section sometime. At least out here the former dwarfs the latter (if there's an RPG section at all). I'll not try to guess the size and income of the manga industry in relation to the RPG industry, but somehow I suspect it works out similar to what we’re seeing at the booksellers.
As for the look of Pathfinder, while we've made no deliberate artistic changes from what folks saw in Dragon and Dungeon, four artists/studios we're using heavily are Wayne Reynolds, Andrew Hou, Arnold Tsang, and Udon. Why? Because they're awesome and don't give us work that looks just like the WotC staples. And why is that good? Because our stuff CAN'T look like the WotC staples. In the same way Wizards owns mind flayers, beholders, and salad, they also own the distinctive look of every single creature in the Monster Manual. That's why the goblins on the cover of Pathfinder #1 don't look like the dopey hobos from the Monster Manual. And, in my opinion, the art's all the more awesome for it.
If there is any anime/manga influence, it might because Andrew and Arnold live in Korea, or it might be because Udon is like the most respected group of manga artists in North America. But, I don't see us sending our most creative and reliable artists a collection of Caldwell, Elmore, and Easley art and telling them, "Could you guys try to make it more like this?"
Holding a print issue of Pathfinder #1 as I write this, I have to say that the art is amazing, and having seen what’s coming, it gets even better. We’ve released maybe 2%... 3% of the art that will be appearing in our final products and if you don’t like the preview art, that’s the work of one artist, the finished products utilize many more. [[Insert the whole “book-by-it’s-cover” analogy here.]] All in all, though, having had to depart from the look of 33 years of D&D, and after seeing what our friends and favorite artists have been coming up with, I wish we had done this years ago.
As a non-Manga reader, Wayne's stuff all looks Manga-y to me, too. Just like, if you hate rap music, NWA sounds exactly like Jay-Z to you... but if you're into it, you can go on for days about how different they are from one another. For people like me (and apparently Fakedtung), things like huge feet, swords far too large to be wielded by any Medium creature, regardless of strength, and needless embelleshments like spikes, serrations, etc. adorning most equipment and costumes are lumped under "manga-looking." No, I can't point out specific examples from Japanese comic books (or their imitators) because I don't read them. The fact that Reynolds' characters lack huge eyes (in most cases) and blue hair doesn't remove the other elements.
So, to Manga fans, of course the artwork is emphatically and without question non-manga. To rap fans, hip-hop is clearly a distinct musical form with no relation to rap. But to non-fans, hip-hip and rap are more or less similar styles, and are VERY distinct from rock, from jazz, and from classical. Reynolds' art is hip-hip to Manga's rap.
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As a non-Manga reader, Wayne's stuff all looks Manga-y to me, too. Just like, if you hate rap music, NWA sounds exactly like Jay-Z to you... but if you're into it, you can go on for days about how different they are from one another. For people like me (and apparently Fakedtung), things like huge feet, swords far too large to be wielded by any Medium creature, regardless of strength, and needless embelleshments like spikes, serrations, etc. adorning most equipment and costumes are lumped under "manga-looking." No, I can't point out specific examples from Japanese comic books (or their imitators) because I don't read them. The fact that Reynolds' characters lack huge eyes (in most cases) and blue hair doesn't remove the other elements.
The problem with that is that over-large weapons and tons of "bling" has never been contained solely to manga. Nor can it be considered the norm among manga. Thus, calling artwork with these elements "manga-esque" is pretty absurd.
I could be totally wrong about this person.Somehow, I doubt it.
Thanx four fiksing mi tiep-o, Azzy. Eye dont sownd az dum nou. ;)
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No blue gravity defying hair either, really.I know! And I've been trying so hard to get it in, too! :(Well, dangit, how about it? How about a GameMastery module inspired by all those stereotypes of anime. I'd play it! :D
I wouldn't call it GameMastery, but I offer Exalted as an example.
The problem with that is that over-large weapons and tons of "bling" has never been contained solely to manga. Nor can it be considered the norm among manga. Thus, calling artwork with these elements "manga-esque" is pretty absurd.
Rhyming lyrics spoken out of synch with non-instrumental music are not confined to rap, either--nor do all rap songs feature them--but they're hallmarks of the genre nonetheless. Labeling any song that contains rapping as "rap" or "rap-like" is patently absurd to a hip-hop fan... but not to someone who is comparing those styles to Baroque classical, or to blues. Absurdly over-large weapons are a Manga hallmark--even though not every Manga publication necessarily features them. Nor does the fact that they're no longer confined to that genre in any way remove their association with it.
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Guys, I understand this manga-style is popular and pervades all (kids just luuurve it), but reaaally...
First off, turns out it's not just the kids. Take a look at the size of the manga section at any Barnes and Noble in comparison to the RPG section sometime. At least out here the former dwarfs the latter (if there's an RPG section at all). I'll not try to guess the size and income of the manga industry in relation to the RPG industry, but somehow I suspect it works out similar to what we’re seeing at the booksellers.
This is true at my local B&N where the RPG collection is nice, but relegated to two rotating racks, and the manga section is four cases.
I spent four years in Korea and am on my way back for another two years: there are whole bookstores in every town that sell nothing but magazines and manga. I've seen men and women in Korea of all ages from children to old, old, old guys reading manga on the metro. Not to mention the fact that manga as a form is way older than, well, anyone reading this post...
I've seen men and women in Korea of all ages from children to old, old, old guys reading manga on the metro. Not to mention the fact that manga as a form is way older than, well, anyone reading this post...
Not disparaging Manga as a style, just questioning whether so many of its trademarks need to be so consistently incorporated into Pathfinder art. Maybe--just once in a while--we could have a picture of a utilitarian sword of reasonable size? Some of Ben Wooten's art in "Savage Tide" went a long way towards giving other styles some representation, for which I was profoundly grateful.
No one is saying that Mr Reynolds isn't talented, we're just wondering why his "look" (or ones in a similar style--Hou's is so similar, to my uninitiated eye, that I can't tell one from the other without reading the signatures) HAVE to be the only ones allowed.
Although I haven't read the whole thread I want to add that I LOVE the art of Pathfinder so far!!!
When I am dreaming up my homebrew world the pictures are quite similiar to Hou's great works! Udon really rocks!!! After seeing the darkmantle encounter from D0 he is surely one of my favorites. One doesn't have to mention WAR! To me he is THE defining illustrator of 3.5! If you want to know what adventure and action is like, take a look at his work!
So two thumbs up for Paizo-Art!!
The Pathfinder art I've seen so far is great. Really, top notch work. Hou and Reynolds are on point.
But as someone who prefers New Avengers to Pokemon, I can understand the complaints of too much manga influnece. If the art were just a little more manga, It'd be too much for my tastes.
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Not to mention the fact that manga as a form is way older than, well, anyone reading this post...
But not as old as Disney, which is one of the inspirations for the "forerunner" of manga... whatever his name is. You know, Astro Boy.
Oh, and Mr. Gersen? You were saying something about big swords and bling?
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Creative Director
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Not disparaging Manga as a style, just questioning whether so many of its trademarks need to be so consistently incorporated into Pathfinder art. Maybe--just once in a while--we could have a picture of a utilitarian sword of reasonable size? Some of Ben Wooten's art in "Savage Tide" went a long way towards giving other styles some representation, for which I was profoundly grateful.
No one is saying that Mr Reynolds isn't talented, we're just wondering why his "look" (or ones in a similar style--Hou's is so similar, to my uninitiated eye, that I can't tell one from the other without reading the signatures) HAVE to be the only ones allowed.
For what it's worth... Ben Wootten is one of the artists we're using in Pathfinder. We're also using Warren Mahy, the other half of the art team we used for all of Savage Tide. There will be a variety of art styles inside, just as you've seen in Dungeon. In fact, since it's the same folk more or less working on Pathfinder who worked on the magazines... you can expect the art content to mirror the magazines in style. Some of it is indeed Manga influenced. Some of it is not.
Oh, and Mr. Gersen? You were saying something about big swords?
Exactly. That sword is on the large end of real-life ones, and note that it is far less that 2 ft. in width, and clearly weighs less than Mr. Gibson himself does. Love the bling, though. Medallions are MUCH cooler than spikes.
Mr. Jacobs:
Ben Wooten is a breath of fresh air for me. I can deal with SOME Manga (seeing as how overwhelmingly popular it seems to be with everyone here), but I just wanted to make sure that non-fans like myself weren't totally being marginalized from the hobby. Thank you for your reassurance, sir.
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Oh, and Mr. Gersen? You were saying something about big swords?Exactly. That sword is on the large end of real-life ones, and note that it is far less that 2 ft. in width, and clearly weighs less than Mr. Gibson himself does.
Mr. Jacobs:
Ben Wooten was a breath of fresh air. I can deal with SOME Manga (seeing as how overwhelmingly popular it seems to be with everyone here), but I just wanted to make sure that non-fans like myself weren't being marginalized from the hobby. Thanks for your reassurance, sir.
I should mention that I don't really care for real Manga in the slightest. I tolerate some anime, but it's really gotta be good (cf. Studio Ghibli). At first, I really did not like the Eberron art direction...but it grew on me, and now I can't get enough Wayne Reynolds...I still prefer Elmore :-)
note: I believe Eberron's overall art is extremely anime-influenced, but not Manga.
note: I believe Eberron's overall art is extremely anime-influenced, but not Manga.
See, you got me there. Until your post, I'd thought the only difference was in the medium (comics vs. TV). My wife can't understand why I can't tell the difference between "Top Pop" and "Hip Hop," and scolds me mercilessly when I have the gall to refer to Fergie as the latter... but on the other hand, I could go on for days about the differences between Albert King's pre- and post-Chicago styles, whereas to my wife, it's all just "blues" (and, in fact, before I patiently explained the difference, she was calling it "jazz"). Still, she can't tell Albert King from B.B. King, and, by voice alone, probably couldn't tell those two from Martin Luther King. It takes all kinds.
I'd love to see a Pathfinder in which one issue is Reynolds/Hou style, the next is by Erol Otus, the next looks like old woodcuts, then maybe a silkscreen issue, etc. You know, mix it up a bit. Or maybe have some of each in each issue. THAT would be sweet. Luckily, Mr Jacobs has assured us that Wooten is still "in," so that gives un-hip people like me a break from the Reynolds-Hou-o-Rama. Yet another reason to love Paizo.
On an historical note, manga dates back to feudal Japan. It was much different then, being woodblock prints from artists like Hokusai and Yoshitoshi; typically scenes from Japanese history and folklore as well as everyday street scenes that peasants and other lower class folks around Edo would collect and put up at home. Only after World War 2 and Osamu Tezuka (of Astroboy fame) did what we know now as manga become popular.
There was a huge book that came out recently regarding the popular culture and art of Japan post WW2. A lot of the reasoning behind the popularity of manga and anime seems to be the emasculating effect of dropping the atom bomb on Japan. The defeat was so sudden, so brutal and unexpected (and lacking in honor, which the Emperor and Japanese fascists put a great deal of value on) that the formerly militant culture became increasingly more childlike as a reaction. Japan is, in a lot of ways, a post apocalyptic culture. (This is, of course, all based on what I was taught in school and the results of this book.)
Japan is, in a lot of ways, a post apocalyptic culture.
LOL - This subject of conversation comes up a lot when the husband & I discuss anime with people that are unfamiliar with the genre. One watching of Akira will help with that. ;) (Though Vampire Hunter D, Noir, and Samurai X: Trust/Betrayal are also on my list.)
Different artists give their own flair to a setting - can you imagine Planescape without DiTierlizzi's touch? Dark Sun without Brom? Or Dragonlance without Caldwell-Easley-Elmore? Hou-Reynolds-Wooten is defining the style for Pathfinder - their flair gives a distinct immediate "this is what this campaign is like" feel, not unlike the TSR artists of yore did for those settings they worked on. The impact a visual image like Seoni, Karzoug, the covers to Crown of the Kobold King and Bloodsworn Vale can't be understated - the pictures are what our eyes are drawn to.
Of course, everybody's tastes vary. I'm still not a huge fan of Easley, though he is very proficient in his work. I'm sure there are people who looked at Planescape and went "WTF is this grimy dirty crap? I can't read the pages!"
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... I'm sure there are people who looked at Planescape and went "WTF is this grimy dirty crap? I can't read the pages!"
I was just looking at "Harbinger House" and wondering what happened to the production quality in WotC modules v cost. HH has color plates, color and contrast on every page, etc. The same priced module today is pure black and white, and not always the best print quality-- is this because of cost cuts? So then I'm looking at the new GM stuff and wondering how can Paizo afford to produce this stuff--heavy paper, color throughout, and real quality layout.
I really like the art - it's putting me in the mood for some gaming - and I'm 37.
I actually am a Caldwell fan - who's model is also very cute - Slightly NSFW pic at the bottom -
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On an historical note, manga dates back to feudal Japan. It was much different then, being woodblock prints from artists like Hokusai and Yoshitoshi; typically scenes from Japanese history and folklore as well as everyday street scenes that peasants and other lower class folks around Edo would collect and put up at home. Only after World War 2 and Osamu Tezuka (of Astroboy fame) did what we know now as manga become popular.
You mean uki-oe? Quite honestly, that's like saying that Picasso was a fore-runner of comic books.
There was a huge book that came out recently regarding the popular culture and art of Japan post WW2. A lot of the reasoning behind the popularity of manga and anime seems to be the emasculating effect of dropping the atom bomb on Japan. The defeat was so sudden, so brutal and unexpected (and lacking in honor, which the Emperor and Japanese fascists put a great deal of value on) that the formerly militant culture became increasingly more childlike as a reaction. Japan is, in a lot of ways, a post apocalyptic culture. (This is, of course, all based on what I was taught in school and the results of this book.)
That's pretty interesting. What school did you go to?
You mean uki-oe? Quite honestly, that's like saying that Picasso was a fore-runner of comic books.
Actually, Picasso did experiment with sequential narrative. There's an anthology from the last ten years where they've reproduced one of his comics, though the name escapes me. Had to start somewhere.
There was a huge book that came out recently regarding the popular culture and art of Japan post WW2. A lot of the reasoning behind the popularity of manga and anime seems to be the emasculating effect of dropping the atom bomb on Japan. The defeat was so sudden, so brutal and unexpected (and lacking in honor, which the Emperor and Japanese fascists put a great deal of value on) that the formerly militant culture became increasingly more childlike as a reaction. Japan is, in a lot of ways, a post apocalyptic culture. (This is, of course, all based on what I was taught in school and the results of this book.)That's pretty interesting. What school did you go to?
School of Visual Arts, Manhattan. Illustration/Cartooning program. Even if I didn't want to learn about manga and anime, it was too prevalent to avoid.
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You mean uki-oe? Quite honestly, that's like saying that Picasso was a fore-runner of comic books.Actually, Picasso did experiment with sequential narrative. There's an anthology from the last ten years where they've reproduced one of his comics, though the name escapes me. Had to start somewhere.
Hm, well played, Clerk.