One of the things that has always irked me about long-running campaign arcs in published materials is the fact that at high levels it involves plane-jumping and fiends.
It's cliche.
I'd love to see a future pathfinder story arc that avoids this cliche. D&D is no longer built that to have decent foes you have to pull out the fiends and gods to do battle with. Nor, to keep player power in line do you need to skip to planes of alternate reality that mess with the player's abilities to bring them down a notch.
I'd honestly and sincerely love to see a campaign that stays in the Prime Material World and doesn't pull some (half-) demon, devil, daemon, or god into the picture as the ultimate power behind the story arc. I'd rather the characters face, at the end, a mortal being. Not someone trying to become a god or bring about the ultimate annilation of the world. Just someone utterly powerful - like a king of a nation, a powerful-yet-reclusive wizard, a maniacal cleric not acting on his god's whim or something such as it.
Are the writers up to the challenge?
Well, given that the Rise of the Runelords apparently features (okay, just in case anyone is living under a rock)
I think they are way ahead of you.
Creative Director
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Well... as posted above, the first Pathfinder campaign does just this. It never leaves the Material Plane, and the bad guys at the end aren't evil outsiders (although, of course, there may be a few).
But I think you're wrong when you say that D&D "isn't built that way." Check out the Monster Manual's entries for everything CR 15 and above. Not counting dragons (which, I've learned, are tricky to use since so many readers want them to be end bosses and not monsters you fight along the way), you have a total of 18 monsters.
Of those 18, three are good aligned outsiders and thus don't make the best monsters to fight. Which drops us to 15.
Of those 15, two are monsters with class levels that have their CR figured incorrectly; the aboleth mage and the mind flayer sorcerer both have eight non-associated class levels, so they should both really be CR 13 monsters, which takes them out of the list. We're down to 13.
Which pretty much leaves only 13 monsters to choose from for all your adventures from levels 15 to 20. And of those 13 monsters, only three (the vampire monk/shadowdancer, the greater stone golem, the frost giant jarl, and the tarrasque) aren't extraplanar monsters, and of those four, only one (the golem) is really something you can use for anything but an end-boss.
Now, of course you can advance monsters or give monsters class levels or pull mosnters from non-Monster Manual sources, and at that point things get a LOT less dire, but keep in mind that, in Dungeon adventures, we're always hurting for space. Especially on the high level adventures, where stat blocks often take up an entire page (and have been know to go to THREE pages). In these situations, using monsters directly out of the Monster Manual (the only book we can safely assume all our readers have access to, and thus the only book that we don't have to print full stat blocks for monsters we use) is one of the most important ways that we can fit those high level adventures in the magazine. Setting high-level adventures in locations that aren't heavilly influenced by extraplanar creatures pretty much renders the Monster Manual useless as a source for short stat blocks, and as a result, the higher level adventures have to be shorter.
Now, we've certainly been able to take care of this problem to a great extent by dropping the last four or so adventures in each adventrue path down to 1 level adventures (whereas the low and mid level ones generally cover 2 levels of experience), but still... The game as it's written in the three core books expects and practically forces you to go to the outer planes once you get to 15th level and above.
In any event, in Pathfinder I absolutely think that we're up to the challenge of avoiding fiends and planar treks. Rise of the Runelords, as I mention above, takes place entirely on the Material Plane. The next advenure path will as well. So hang in there... good things are on the way! (Of course, I personally feel that the fiend-heavy, plane-hopping last few Savage Tide adventures are super-awesome...)
(Of course, I personally feel that the fiend-heavy, plane-hopping last few Savage Tide adventures are super-awesome...)
...says the man that wrote much of the first Fiendish Codex and Demonomicon articles. ;)
The game as it's written in the three core books expects and practically forces you to go to the outer planes once you get to 15th level and above.
Yeah, which is why I have all the PCs in my campaign retire and start n3ew characters once they hit lvl 16 or higher.
The game as it's written in the three core books expects and practically forces you to go to the outer planes once you get to 15th level and above.Yeah, which is why I have all the PCs in my campaign retire and start n3ew characters once they hit lvl 16 or higher.
forcing players to retire isn't nice... At least let them get some huge accomplishment done as the grand finale; just saying "oops you hit 16th level, time to quit" would feel like very bad railroading to me. Unelss of course you build campaigns that have their grand finales at those levels.
Or, take the evil way out: TPK (not suggesting it at all, but in some ways it is more satisfactory than a premature retirement)
forcing players to retire isn't nice... At least let them get some huge accomplishment done as the grand finale; just saying "oops you hit 16th level, time to quit" would feel like very bad railroading to me. Unelss of course you build campaigns that have their grand finales at those levels.
.
Or, take the evil way out: TPK (not suggesting it at all, but in some ways it is more satisfactory than a premature retirement)
*Laugh*
Well first, I let it be known ahead of time that I rarely run games at 16th level or higher (I'll finish up any plot lines etc, but thats about it). Most of my players begin planning their retirement at lvl 12. As far as grand accomplishments (or at least a grand finish), I try to allow for that ... here are a few examples of player 'retirements'
Lord Lazarus - LE Human Knight
Was named the kings champion, Was granted his own township to watch over, built a stronghold, and then went to fight off an evil undead baron. The player sacrificed himself to kill the baron (both went into a pit of lava), but it was his choice. Honestly I didn't see it coming.
His town and stronghold are still present in the campaign. Overseen by an NPC lord.
Ashnack - LN Half-Orc Cleric
After helping defeat the baron (above), Ashnack took over an evil wizards tower (the party had previously disposed). Ashnack now serves as an NPC and maintains a smuggling/black-market ring (worships a god of trade)
Mr. Whisper - CN Half-Elf Assasin
After serving Lazarus loyaly for many years, Mr. Whisper ended up betraying him to the baron (above) in a move that surprised everyone. Later, Whisper assisted Lazarus by betraying the baron. The Half-Elf now wanders the realm (as an NPC), infamous for his treachery. (The player chose this fate himself - wanted to be known everywhere)
Coming up soon -
Sida - LN Teifling Monk
Currently she is working to restore a fallen monastic order, plans to retire to serve as head of the order.
Liem - N Aasimar Mystic Theurge
Party leader, has developed ties to a ruling council of a metropolis, looking into becoming a city magistrate.
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Well... as posted above, the first Pathfinder campaign does just this. It never leaves the Material Plane, and the bad guys at the end aren't evil outsiders (although, of course, there may be a few).
<snip>
Speaking of which...I would be interested in some more details about the Pathfinder Cosmology!
But while we're a wishin' I think it would be a hoot to have a path dedicated to the players being Monster Hunters (new "organization with bene's"). Each edition would involve the party hunting down and killing some esoteric monster. While seemingly unrelated a Lamashu plot would slowly be uncoverd!
We're pretty much leaving it vague right now. We want Golarion to fit in with the world's most popular roleplaying game's cosmology, so we're pretty much just leaving it alone. :)
Just out of interest (and OT) why do you guys do that? Is it a copyright thing or something? You must have "the world's most popular role-playing game" permanently on your clipboard ready to paste!
Or do you just not want to say THE THREE LETTERS OF DOOM? (Well, two letters and an ampersand).
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Creative Director
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We're pretty much leaving it vague right now. We want Golarion to fit in with the world's most popular roleplaying game's cosmology, so we're pretty much just leaving it alone. :)Just out of interest (and OT) why do you guys do that? Is it a copyright thing or something? You must have "the world's most popular role-playing game" permanently on your clipboard ready to paste!
Or do you just not want to say THE THREE LETTERS OF DOOM? (Well, two letters and an ampersand).
Yup. It's part of the copyright thing and the way the OGL works. For 3.5, at least. Hopefully for the 4th edition OGL, we'll be able to talk about D&D more openly. Since it'd be free advertising for WotC... it seems to me that'd be a good thing all around.
Yeah it does seem a bit silly of them. Oh well, my curiosity is sated now, thanks.
Contributor
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Yup. It's part of the copyright thing and the way the OGL works. For 3.5, at least. Hopefully for the 4th edition OGL, we'll be able to talk about D&D more openly. Since it'd be free advertising for WotC... it seems to me that'd be a good thing all around.
That, and I like to drive our readers nuts.
Muaha.
Muahaha.
MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
>:)
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Chief Technical Officer
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Yup. It's part of the copyright thing and the way the OGL works. For 3.5, at least. Hopefully for the 4th edition OGL, we'll be able to talk about D&D more openly. Since it'd be free advertising for WotC... it seems to me that'd be a good thing all around.
As I understand it, the main reason for that clause in the OGL is that Wizards doesn't want third parties to create products that could conceivably be mistaken as "official." I fully expect that will be an ongoing concern for them.
I would love to see a species of elves like the 'dark sun' elves.
I esspecialy loved their slender apearance and their abbility was really cool.
the update on www.athas.org is cool too.
maybe you could also do something with these elves.
ofcourse if it doesn't violate any copyrights.
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For a campaign that doesn't end up in plane hopping, you should also check out ENWorld's War of the Burning Sky.
As for good hihg-level play away from the planes, I thought "Diplomacy" was actually quite good. The only reason there's so many planar things about it is because it's expected. With some modifications, it could be set at a UN-equivalent among solely prime-material nations and factions.
James makes an interesting point about the available OGL monsters. However, I guess a lot of the campaigns I've played in have been rather unusual. We haven't seen a real need for a lot of extra high level monsters, because the really powerful bad guys pulling the strings from behind the curtain very often end up being high level NPCs--usually human. Although I guess statting out a lot of high level bad guys could be problematic.
But I'll never forget the time we were outnumbered by a bunch of fairly high level Scouts. Ouch.
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James makes an interesting point about the available OGL monsters. However, I guess a lot of the campaigns I've played in have been rather unusual. We haven't seen a real need for a lot of extra high level monsters, because the really powerful bad guys pulling the strings from behind the curtain very often end up being high level NPCs--usually human. Although I guess statting out a lot of high level bad guys could be problematic.
But I'll never forget the time we were outnumbered by a bunch of fairly high level Scouts. Ouch.
A play by post I was in once ha the 4 lvl 20 PCs go up against a 10,000 lvl 1/4 kobold army - and because it was play by post the dm use a ice roller and recorded every attack the Kobolds made - they got through about 5,500 of them before dying..
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Creative Director
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James makes an interesting point about the available OGL monsters. However, I guess a lot of the campaigns I've played in have been rather unusual. We haven't seen a real need for a lot of extra high level monsters, because the really powerful bad guys pulling the strings from behind the curtain very often end up being high level NPCs--usually human. Although I guess statting out a lot of high level bad guys could be problematic.
That is exactly the problem. Focusing on high-level NPCs actually makes it worse, since they tend to have the larger stat blocks, so that wouldn't really help the problem of space for high-level adventures. If the PHB or DMG or MM had high level NPCs statted out, we'd be able to use those stats just like we use the dozen or so high-level monsters, but since they don't, we can't. (And no, the NPC tables in the DMG don't count; in many cases, those NPCs aren't usable in many cases due to the unusual choices in race made when building them, and the tables themselves are hardly easy to use in the heat of gaming.)
I would really enjoy an Egyptian based Pathfinder. It would be really cool if you could do maybe a pantheon series with one pathfinder being Egypt, the next Greek, so on and so forth. I get worn out with new gods or faiths since so many are the god of shoelaces and evil thoughts.
One of the things that has always irked me about long-running campaign arcs in published materials is the fact that at high levels it involves plane-jumping and fiends.
It's cliche.
I'd love to see a future pathfinder story arc that avoids this cliche.
Amen, brother. Maybe I grew up with too many munchkin-esque trips to Hell to battle Tiamat or kill arch-devils, but I hate the constant plane-hopping that seems to occur in high-level adventures.
I understand a lot of the high CR monsters are extraplanar, but that doesn't mean the adventure has to take place on their home plane (which should be phenomenally challenging just "adapting" to the plane, IMO). I have no problem using them, but on the material plane.
In my 10-year and growing setting, my most recent campaign saw the awakening of an ancient wizard who has been slowly rediscovering and opening portals (carefully and slowly) to summon extraplanar denizens as his servants. Part of the history of hte world involved the Daemon Wars, when much of the continent was overrun by yugoloths (or daemons, as I still call them), while also collecting a force of goblinoids and giants to invade the human and elven cities. (I kind of wonder if Paizo has been watching my game, or if we just share a meme here...) The closest the PCs ever come to extraplanar travel has been through a series of gates constructed long ago to use the ethereal plane in combination with the Plane of Shadow to enhance travel speed (inspired in part by the very old module All That Glitters).
The entire arc takes place on one section of the continent. It is possible the PCs may want to travel to the strongholds on human civilization, but they can pretty much stay within a few hundred mile range from 1st to 20th. More importantly, they can learn the advantages and drawbacks of summoning extraplanar creatures, and see the perils of too much planar interaction as they discover just how destructive the Daemon Wars were. They can even find allies in unlikely places, such as the isolationist druids who realize demons are worse than humans, or in the tyrant leader who tried to have them assassinated, but whose power also holds back the goblinoids forces from the plains.
So I agree, please, a little less plane-hopping. It's a big enough campaign world...
As for what I would like to see, I have read the calls for a city-based adventure. I myself and putting together the web for an all-thieves' guild campaign, including intrigue reaching the king's throne. Some ideas take the PCs out of the city, but the basis for the campaign all resides in town - with no plane hopping necessary.
Hmmm! An all-rogue campaign? Cool, sign me up--I've got a cool character concept. ;) Now we just need to find some more players! /threadjack
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The game as it's written in the three core books expects and practically forces you to go to the outer planes once you get to 15th level and above.
In any event, in Pathfinder I absolutely think that we're up to the challenge of avoiding fiends and planar treks.
Not meaning to demean your efforts in any way, but I thought it's worth pointing out that Eberron solves this problem by shifting a vast number of outsiders to Khyber and making them native.