Ok, so I've come to terms with being an H&S DM, sort of. But I want to try and run a more social intrigue type of game. ANy advice? Party size? Story set up? NPC advice? ratio of combats: sessions?
A good way to curb a bit of hack & slash is intimidation to overcome the challenges through non-combative methods. The big bad ass guarding the entrance to the dungeon that has a CR way above the party level is a good example. He responds to attacks by whoming the PCs, but let's them live. Perhaps the next time they come back they try to bribe him, disguise themselves and Bluff their way past him, try to sneak past, or try a bit of Diplomacy.
Another way is to cut down on encounters that a few swings with their weapons can solve. More traps, more puzzles, more opponents that are way tougher than the PCs.
Give them encounters in which they can use Gather Information, Diplomacy, and Knowledge skills. And try to work Perform skills in there as well. Perhaps the big bad guy mentioned above will only let the PCs leave after kicking the crap out of them by singing him a pleasing little song or dancing like fools. Low rolls only make him growl and get surlier forcing them maybe to start with the Diplomacy rolls.
Those are some tips that come to mind. I'll try to think of some others.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
Ok, so I've come to terms with being an H&S DM, sort of. But I want to try and run a more social intrigue type of game. ANy advice? Party size? Story set up? NPC advice? ratio of combats: sessions?
The most important part of a social intrigue game is to develop a web of NPCs (and PCs) and decide how they all relate to each other and what their agendas are. Simply take a piece of paper and put the BBEG at the center, then work your way out through his minions and associates. The PCs should be in the outer ring and your plot hook will dictate how they fit into the story. From there, they start following the trail of bread crumbs (NPCs) to the mastermind behind whatever plot you've come up with.
For a good example of a 'social intrigue' game, you can look at my play-by-post game, though my game is, admittedly, a bit more 'mystery and investigation' than 'social intrigue.'
Ok, so I've come to terms with being an H&S DM, sort of. But I want to try and run a more social intrigue type of game. ANy advice? Party size? Story set up?
Get your hand on any used book of the WW's World of Darkness [Mage, Vampire, Wraith]. They had complete chapters about how to improve your storytelling aka social or low action game - They were useful to me.
|
First, talk it over with your players, because if they want hack and slash, they will hack and slash.
Second, location location location. There is very little intrigue in the forest, cave bears don't talk much, dire sharks are terrible at cards, and elementals throw terrible parties on their home planes
Third, consistency. If talking and bluffing will get through most situations, then it should have a chance in all situations. Well not all, cave bears still don't talk much.
Fourth, education. First you have to teach the players, then you have to teach the characters. Make sure all the social skills get used, don't rely to heavily on diplomacy when bluff or intimidate is more appropriate. if players learn that diplomacy is all that matters, human with 18 charisma, 4 ranks in diplomacy, skill focus, and one of the +2/+2 feats is looking at +13 straight outta the gate
Fifth, break it up. diplomacy works, bluffing works, mystery and intriguw work, but every once in a while, throw the characters at something where other abilities shine. while investigating a tenament they attract some wild dogs, or one of the aforementioned encounters from point 2
Sixth, character control, the anti-social types should be barred. Barbarians, most druids, most rangers, etc that are not city appropriate should be banned, or at least write a monster of a back story
Okay, that is my poorly phrased, poorly written guidelin, hope it helps
|
Make "Boss Monsters" that can't be killed, either because the party is incapable of killing them - (e.g.: First-Level PCs meet Ancient Wyrm Red Dragon) or because they won't kill them - (e.g.: Good PCs must convince 5-year-old kid to give them the key to the wizard's treasure room). The second option requires that (a) you know your players (so you know that they won't just kick the kid in the jimmies and take the key) and (b) they know you'll hook them up with the XPs for good RP.
One fun mechanic to get your players to RP is to make the rewards scale to their RP quality. Say a PC gets charmed by a vampire. I hand him a 3x5 card that says "Lord Bloodslaked is your best friend. You can't understand why the others don't trust him. (100-500 XP)" If the player really acts like Lord Bloodslaked is a great guy, and passes up chances to break the charm or risks his life to help him, the PC will get the full 500 XP when the others finally stake the vamp. If he just fakes it, maybe he just gets 100. This can really bring out players' acting abilities.
Like a diet, remember to splurge on some good H&S every now and then, though....
Great stuff all. Please keep it coming. I've got one Lung Dragon Pirate Lord, and a whole Imperial City (Think Constantinople) full of lackeys, stooges, assassins, and royalty. And town guards, gotta have them :) Combat and murder will have prices to pay in the mission they are expected to perform (diplomatic entreaty), but there are unfriendly elements they may still have to draw steel on.
Party size?
- Any but better for small group since there is a lot of talking & interaction.
Story set up?
-Character based.
NPC advice?
- NPC are important but it is to the player to make things happen.
ratio of combats: sessions?
- One at the beginnings, one at the end - a cliffhanger.
|
|
I hate that this is coming from me but here it is......take a look at some of Dungeon's more recent Ebooron adventures. They seem to focus more on intrigue and PC/NPC interactions than on the combat. Another good adventure to look at is "Shut-in" from Dungeon. I thought that it had some serious potential as a mostly RP module.
Some other ways are practice your voices....LOTS. If you see someone in a movie with an interesting accent/speech pattern, then practice it. It doesn't matter if you do it perfectly, just do it. Give every NPC a personality quirk, a lisp, an obsession with mens calves, a "hand talker"(someone who gestures alot during conversations), spits every 4th word, a nervous giggle. All this stuff helps people get into the mindset of the PCs and NPCs and allows more Roleplay possibilities.
hope it helps
FH
Let the players drive the story (not the adventure). Prepare a bunch of "drop in" encounters. Encounters that can easily be dropped in to multiple scinarios...
As others have said, mix up the encounters so they challenge different kinds of tactics and abilities. NPC encounters, puzzles, have the PCs construct a building or something, run a tavern for a month, etc. Set XP levels to how well they accomplish whatever goals that either you or your players strive for at the outset of the adventure or encounter.
As ever,
ACE
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
|
And, after all this great advice, don't forget: Just because it's a 'social intrigue' game doesn't mean that the local baron isn't actually a half-fiend duskblade with a +5 unholy vorpal greataxe who must be destroyed in order to save the world!!!!!!
A little bit of action is always good to spice things up. :)
|
|
And, after all this great advice, don't forget: Just because it's a 'social intrigue' game doesn't mean that the local baron isn't actually a half-fiend duskblade with a +5 unholy vorpal greataxe who must be destroyed in order to save the world!!!!!!
A little bit of action is always good to spice things up. :)
I agree,pacing is important but sometimes you need some thugs to kick the door in on the PCs or jump em in an alleyway.
Make "Boss Monsters" that can't be killed, either because the party is incapable of killing them - (e.g.: First-Level PCs meet Ancient Wyrm Red Dragon) or because they won't kill them - (e.g.: Good PCs must convince 5-year-old kid to give them the key to the wizard's treasure room). The second option requires that (a) you know your players (so you know that they won't just kick the kid in the jimmies and take the key) and (b) they know you'll hook them up with the XPs for good RP.
That would be my advice, too. Put them in a situation that they *could* solve with violence, but which they would much prefer another way. Make it an alignment delimma. And don't be subtle about the fact that maybe talking *can* work. Maybe they have to pursuade an NPC Paladin that he's being lead astray somehow, or a good aligned NPC priest must be pursuaded to reveal his misgivings about his superior's recent suspicious behavior, or the PC's favorite bartender is implicated in something unsavory--maybe he's gotten into something over his head. That kind of thing. In other words, make the opponent someone the PCs really *really* don't want to hurt. Not because they can't but because, well, they just don't.
The most important thing is to get your players to agree to play less hack'n'slash. If they won't, all the other measures have considerably less chance of working...
Consider characters, work their personalities, motives, and back stories into the plot. BBEG-is-brother-of-one-character is a simple but potentially effective plot twist...henchman-of-BBEG-is-brother-of-one-character is perhaps even more effective (just go and check role of Kitiara in that first Dragonlance series). If the players bother to think their characters like real beings instead of collection of stats, do reward them by using that input as story point.
Do make moral questions, situations where there are several options to do, sometimes even force conflict between the characters (one person wants to do one thing, another wants to do something else). Because of this having more anti-social or conflicting types (barbarians, druids, rangers, paladins) is a good thing, while of course overdoing it will be too disruptive. While too much disruption is a bad thing, disruption in moderation is essential for storytelling.
Consequences. Everything characters do have consequences. If characters kill and loot more or less randomly, they are quickly considered an unwanted element in the society (even if they technically would be fighting "bad guys"). do anything noteworthy, good or bad, and people will be paying attention...including some whose attention is not a good thing (thieves and sycophants, demon lords who consider you a potential threat, king who thinks you are planning to overthrow him).
Recurring NPCs are important.
Also, one famous example is the bunch of characters who lost the stopper for Decanter of Everflowing Lemonade (or whatever that magical item was called) and instead of bothering to look for a replacement, they just left it flowing...and in couple of months bunch of druids came to complain to them about a lake of sweet and sticky lemonade their actions had created...
Location is not that important (while choice of location does encourage certain styles). It is possible to do storytelling about wandering in the woods while an urban campaign can go to hack'n'slash, only with Diplomacy rolls instead of Attack and Damage rolls (hint: if all the problems can be solved with only rolling the dice, I consider that hack'n'slash, no matter what the rolls are).
A good way to curb a bit of hack & slash is intimidation to overcome the challenges through non-combative methods. The big bad ass guarding the entrance to the dungeon that has a CR way above the party level is a good example. He responds to attacks by whoming the PCs, but let's them live. Perhaps the next time they come back they try to bribe him, disguise themselves and Bluff their way past him, try to sneak past, or try a bit of Diplomacy.
On VIOLENCE
When I was trying to curb the H&S in a game by doing more or less what Steve suggests a while back, I reminded my players about the encounters Ulysses overcame in the Odyssey. The Cyclops who doesn't outright try and kill the players but blocks them in the cave and is a great example of forcing players into some problem solving. Ulysses' solution is a combination of violence and cleverness, and although players don't just pull stuff like this out of their asses a little high CR fear and some post play anecdotes from you will certainly spark their thinking.
Sometimes I have a clear and viable plan that I hope my players will think of, but sometimes I like to put them in tough situations from which I do not foresee an obvious escape and litter the environment with all kinds of 'stuff' that they may put to use in ways I have not thought of. Sometimes they get really clever and surprise me, and sometimes I must help them with a little deus ex machina (the cavalry shows up).
But, hey, I still like my H&S, and sometimes you can combine it with some non-linear thinking tests that make the combat go faster, like those exploding barrels in first person shooter games--you know: you shoot them and they blow up the sniper behind the crates.... In King Arthur there was the frozen lake.... setting dry grass on fire can.... starting avalanches.... turn the stone floor into mud.... blah blah blah
Tell your characters about this stuff. It's always in action movies and it always starts with a situation where the heroes are just plain overpowered or outnumbered.
On ROLEPLAYING
Do as much roleplaying as you can, yourself. The learning curve is slow here for a lot of Dms so don't feel bad--I'm no Jack NIcholson but the point is that I try my best. I've got a Vampire arc and for research I am reading Vampire Hunter D (the novels: 1-3). I am primed with great arch-villain speeches, plot twists, and a few new vampire related magic items that can be used in clever ways that my players have neither seen nor heard.
Plus all the other stuff the great Dms in here said....
Say a PC gets charmed by a vampire. I hand him a 3x5 card that says "Lord Bloodslaked is your best friend. You can't understand why the others don't trust him. (100-500 XP)" If the player really acts like Lord Bloodslaked is a great guy, and passes up chances to break the charm or risks his life to help him, the PC will get the full 500 XP when the others finally stake the vamp. If he just fakes it, maybe he just gets 100. This can really bring out players' acting abilities.
That's a great idea--I'm trying it this weekend.
Ok, so I've come to terms with being an H&S DM, sort of. But I want to try and run a more social intrigue type of game. ANy advice? Party size? Story set up? NPC advice? ratio of combats: sessions?
I've been struggling with an adventure idea like this for a while. I need an adventure about a war of nobles in the shadows with all sorts of factions vying for control of the throne in a decadent city. The adventure deals with the need to replace a good but incompetent Emperor with a neutral or evil but competent noble as it is a time of war and the Empire is collapsing in the face of a massive goblinoid incursion.
So far as I can tell I can't find anything in 3.5 that really informs me on how to make this sort of an adventure. Its not just you who's H&S - the whole game system is heavily biased in that direction. I've not been able to find any adventures so far in which intrigue seems to be the main theme.
A big part of the problem is that social adventures depend on the social skills and these can vary so massively from party A to party B that its really hard to make an adventure about this sort of topic. One can make one tailored to ones own party but here I think the D&D system falls down because a magazine like Dungeon has a difficult time making one that works well for all possible parties.
One of the main sources I am working with for this game is a 3 volume series on Byzantium. In the "need a new emperor" scenario you are talking about, it happenned all the time. Popular generals often ended up being acclaimed basileus by the army when the current one wasn't gettin it done. Which often led to civil war, but hey, thats a good RP opportunity too.
I've already prepped my players to expect more RP, I just want to make sure I am ready for it. And there's a limit to how murky a 5 person party can get. Look at the movie "The Departed" and how convoluted the plot was there. I want there to be at least one or two "oh, you suck" moments as NPCs true motivations become clear, maybe a femme fatale or 2, and the constant feeling like they are in a tub of pirahhna with a skinned knee :)
The other major problem i have is the accusation of Rail roading. Most of my group is comfortable following a story line, because they know if they perform it will lead to cooler plots, more adventure, and fun. One of my guys though is a bit of trouble. I'm concerned he may get tired of the "shadowy illumination" I plan on using, and try something rash.
|
|
One of the main sources I am working with for this game is a 3 volume series on Byzantium.
I've already prepped my players to expect more RP, I just want to make sure I am ready for it. And there's a limit to how murky a 5 person party can get.
Anything set in Byzantium should be easy to make RP heavy.
Also for the players - limit them to one PC each. That helps them think of the PC as "me" vice "the tank" and "the sneak".
Ok, so I've come to terms with being an H&S DM, sort of. But I want to try and run a more social intrigue type of game. ANy advice? Party size? Story set up? NPC advice? ratio of combats: sessions?I've been struggling with an adventure idea like this for a while. I need an adventure about a war of nobles in the shadows with all sorts of factions vying for control of the throne in a decadent city. The adventure deals with the need to replace a good but incompetent Emperor with a neutral or evil but competent noble as it is a time of war and the Empire is collapsing in the face of a massive goblinoid incursion.
So far as I can tell I can't find anything in 3.5 that really informs me on how to make this sort of an adventure. Its not just you who's H&S - the whole game system is heavily biased in that direction. I've not been able to find any adventures so far in which intrigue seems to be the main theme.
A big part of the problem is that social adventures depend on the social skills and these can vary so massively from party A to party B that its really hard to make an adventure about this sort of topic. One can make one tailored to ones own party but here I think the D&D system falls down because a magazine like Dungeon has a difficult time making one that works well for all possible parties.
It doesn't have to be that different, I wouldn't imagine. Just have the party align with one of the factions, a powerful patron, etc. Then you have missions for them to go on against other houses, but only after a huge amount of info gathering and planning, and discovering of plots.
"Enemy A is planning this, and we want to stop it. We're going to try to enact Plan 1. We need help from Ally A, so we'll have to secure that first. Also, we want to make sure Enemy A can't accuse us of this when it's done. So, we need to frame it on Enemy B. Now, we need to find out where Enemy A and Enemy B have cross purposes and we can stage our plan, frame them, and come out on top when the smoke clears."
Also, I recomend looking at the recent Dungeon adventure, "Diplomacy," in issue 144. I think the title says it all. :)
Also, I recomend looking at the recent Dungeon adventure, "Diplomacy," in issue 144. I think the title says it all. :)
"War of the Wielded" in #149 is a good one, too. The concept alone is worth it, IMO! Being caught between two fueding sets of intelligent weapons, each running a thieves' guild, is sure to get the party plotting and scheming.
It doesn't have to be that different, I wouldn't imagine. Just have the party align with one of the factions, a powerful patron, etc. Then you have missions for them to go on against other houses, but only after a huge amount of info gathering and planning, and discovering of plots.
"Enemy A is planning this, and we want to stop it. We're going to try to enact Plan 1. We need help from Ally A, so we'll have to secure that first. Also, we want to make sure Enemy A can't accuse us of this when it's done. So, we need to frame it on Enemy B. Now, we need to find out where Enemy A and Enemy B have cross purposes and we can stage our plan, frame them, and come out on top when the smoke clears."
Also, I recomend looking at the recent Dungeon adventure, "Diplomacy," in issue 144. I think the title says it all. :)
Certian elements of this I like but the broad strokes don't strike me as 'City of Mystery and Intrigue' - more like Simon Sez.
The Faction leader, we'll call him Simon, sez go do A - so players go do A. Now Simon Sez go do B and the players dutifully go and do B. Finally Simon Sez go do C and the players go and do C - then they win. I sez shoot me now...
What I want is something more free form. Not open ended like I'm DMing from the hip but something for higher level players where the characters themselves are a potent force that has come in from the outside, evaluated the situation, and is now going about pulling strings themselves in order to change the situation to something they envision as more suitable. So the players are not pawns in this game - they'll even have to acquire their own pawns before they can pull off that elusive check mate.
They decide which strings to pull but I need an adventure that can try and anticipate what happens when they pull the different strings. I've read Diplomacy and Prince of Red Hand which come closer to what I'm envisioning but their not really there. Each of those events details a social scene with scripted events that more or less occur one after the other until the adventure is completed. In most ways that matter the players are on rails - if they really go off the rails they screw up the adventure.
I don't mind scripted events but I'd want them on triggers that don't necessarily have to go off. A few automatic scripted events is fine but the goal here is not for me to design a pot boiler novel and force my players to run through that but for them to make their own novel out of a complex urban setting with a specific end goal in mind and therefore a vaguely reasonable cast of characters that they are likely to have to interact with (and therefore probably remember - note to self make them cards for all the important NPCs).
NPCs on 3x5 cards would work. I agree I don't want them to feel rail roaded, more like you said about the powerful outsiders. The key thing is they are on a mission to get help (military, food, etc) from a neighboring empire after their city, which is not part of the Empire, has been assaulted by gnolls returning to their ancestral lands nearby. In my mental sketch of it, the gnolls have also sent emissaries to assure the mepire of their peaceful intentions vis a vis the imperial lands. While this is going on, the Basileus is engaged in an eons old struggle against another empire across the sea, which has no problem trying to align with the gnolls to over throw said basileus. There are also several noble families, merchants, mages, smugglers, the Army and Navy, all swirling in a rather piquant sauce. The gnolls want the PCs dead, the other empire has its own assassins loose in the imperial city, each house is armed against its neighbors, the generals and admirals each command their own units through personal loyalty to the Basileus, vice service to the state, which means some are willing to trade that allegiance, etc. Its gonna be a big mess, and it should take them a while to figure it all out and convince the basileus to help. To even get to the city, they have to navigate a couple hundred miles of river and swamp, some of which is controlled by a great pirate lord, who happens to be a dragon, and has his own designs on the imperial city and is none too pleased with the idea of imperial legions marching through his domain. I figure I just give them the mission, they figure out how to do it, i make up most of the crap on the fly and keep good notes for myself :) Then of course, if they fail, they will probably be killed by assassins, if they suceed, they will have to lead the legions back to their home town, there to participate in the final climactic battle fo the gnoll invasion to save thier families from slavery, and possibly, the dinner table.
And Jeremy, here's a Linky
to the condensed version of the series I am using. Its a great primer on the Eastern Roman Empire, and I swear, it'll probably end up dominating my story lines for the next couple years, there's that much material.
It doesn't have to be that different, I wouldn't imagine. Just have the party align with one of the factions, a powerful patron, etc. Then you have missions for them to go on against other houses, but only after a huge amount of info gathering and planning, and discovering of plots.
"Enemy A is planning this, and we want to stop it. We're going to try to enact Plan 1. We need help from Ally A, so we'll have to secure that first. Also, we want to make sure Enemy A can't accuse us of this when it's done. So, we need to frame it on Enemy B. Now, we need to find out where Enemy A and Enemy B have cross purposes and we can stage our plan, frame them, and come out on top when the smoke clears."
Also, I recomend looking at the recent Dungeon adventure, "Diplomacy," in issue 144. I think the title says it all. :)
Certian elements of this I like but the broad strokes don't strike me as 'City of Mystery and Intrigue' - more like Simon Sez.
The Faction leader, we'll call him Simon, sez go do A - so players go do A. Now Simon Sez go do B and the players dutifully go and do B. Finally Simon Sez go do C and the players go and do C - then they win. I sez shoot me now...
That wasn't so much what I was thinking. My thoughts ran something like this:
Simon sez "Mr. McNasty is planning on disrupting my daughter's wedding. Stop him. Oh, and don't implicate me in anything." The party then goes and has to find out about Mr. McNasty, although Simon may be able to help here. They also know that Simon is friends with Sam, so Sam and his people may be able to help.
Now, the party has to get more in depth info on Mr. McNasty and his plans. Particularly, they have to figure out where and how would be a good time, place, and way to stop his plans while not revealing their patron or themselves (cause, duh, they don't want to get caught either). If you have a Lawful group, they could try to dig up dirt on Mr. McNasty an report him.
Or, the party could also be hounded by the Evil Dudes. Now, if the party might be able to kill two birds with one stone. If they can find out where the Evil Dudes and Mr. McNasty connect (provided they do), and can find out where their purposes cross, then they can get really creative. They can either do some super sleuthing with the intent of setting up a sting or raid, perhaps calling in Sam's buddies for a distraction or some back up, or maybe their work is to take their information and drop hints to both sides. They play them against each other, get Mr. McNasty and the Evil Dudes to fight each other, and viola! They've killed two birds with one stone, without ever touching the rock in question to leave a print!
That's pretty free form, right? You set up the plans, motivations, movements, etc. of each faction, give the party and overall objective, and let them figure out how best to navigate it and arrive at their goal. That's what I was trying to convey.
I figure I just give them the mission, they figure out how to do it, i make up most of the crap on the fly and keep good notes for myself :) Then of course, if they fail, they will probably be killed by assassins, if they suceed, they will have to lead the legions back to their home town, there to participate in the final climactic battle fo the gnoll invasion to save thier families from slavery, and possibly, the dinner table.
And Jeremy, here's a Linky
to the condensed version of the series I am using. Its a great primer on the Eastern Roman Empire, and I swear, it'll probably end up dominating my story lines for the next couple years, there's that much material.
You and me are looking to do something not to dissimilar and struggling with the implementation.
I find that there are a couple of issues with running things from the hip. One of the main problems is you, as a DM, are only capable of juggling so many things in your head at any one time. If your dealing with a complex situation your going to use a heuristic and simplify this during play by concentrating on only one or two themes. But that means you have simplified this down for your players and there is some danger in not having all the needed information.
I'd work out the city in some detail at least in regards to this plot line. Know who the players and factions are and what they are trying to do. put this sort of thing into formats that allow the players learn things of interest about each faction. Maybe you could give them a faction sheet for each interesting faction and they could take notes on it. The problem is players hate taking notes and they probably won't. So possibly you can make out a card like the NPC card for every relevant piece of information and they could collect them and pile them under the faction card. This is a little bit artificial in that it focuses the players on whats important (though you could include the major red herring as cards as well). Its not completely organic but unless your players are going to take good notes and refer back to them it might be necessary that you do most of the hard work for them in terms of giving them access to the important information in order to run this adventure.
I'd also get some kind of a city map printed. Might put you back a little to have it done up like a poster map - now let the players mark it up. They'll like that - it'll get them into your city like nothing else if they are marking on the map where their safe house is and where their current target lives.
If you detail out the city in some depth (again in the depth necessary to run this adventure - not the names of every baker in town) it might all begin to click together. Thats currently my hope anyway.
Thanks for the link on the Byzantium Empire. I'm actually fairly familiar with the era, history being one of my other hobbies. My city, though, is not based on Constantinople. Its not naval based and the waring noble families all are decadent innately psionic humans that rule by birthright (their innate psionics).
That wasn't so much what I was thinking. My thoughts ran something like this:
Simon sez "Mr. McNasty is planning on disrupting my daughter's wedding. Stop him. Oh, and don't implicate me in anything." The party then goes and has to find out about Mr. McNasty, although Simon may be able to help here. They also know that Simon is friends with Sam, so Sam and his people may be able to help.
Now, the party has to get more in depth info on Mr. McNasty and his plans. Particularly, they have to figure out where and how would be a good time, place, and way to stop his plans while not revealing their patron or themselves (cause, duh, they don't want to get caught either). If you have a Lawful group, they could try to dig up dirt on Mr. McNasty an report him.
Or, the party could also be hounded by the Evil Dudes. Now, if the party might be able to kill two birds with one stone. If they can find out where the Evil Dudes and Mr. McNasty connect (provided they do), and can find out where their purposes cross, then they can get really creative. They can either do some super sleuthing with the intent of setting up a sting or raid, perhaps calling in Sam's buddies for a distraction or some back up, or maybe their work is to take their information and drop hints to both sides. They play them against each other, get Mr. McNasty and the Evil Dudes to fight each other, and viola! They've killed two birds with one stone, without ever touching the rock in question to leave a print!
That's pretty free form, right? You set up the plans, motivations, movements, etc. of each faction, give the party and overall objective, and let them figure out how best to navigate it and arrive at their goal. That's what I was trying to convey.
OK that does not sound like a bad idea for an adventure. In fact a series of ideas something like this might make for an excellent city campaign. The players would, as a side benefit, become really comfortable with the city in question along the way as well. That said its not really what I'm looking for.
well, if your just starting out running some intrigue type adventures; you might try having some of your bad guys from a h&s encounter just surrender and sell information to the good guys to cut a deal; have these bad guys finger some other bad guy that the party would think needs to be stopped; don't give to much information after all they are trying to cut a deal; they can sweeten the pot a little by maybe giving up one contact or a drop sight or something.
I suggest you watch some movies or read some books with the type of intrigue you are interested in; heck; maybe a bad guy set these guys up to be caught and to give over this info for some thicker plot within a plot. My story arcs are many threads deep; but I have read just about everything and have decades of practice; when you watch or read this material; look for how the story is set up; who are the prime mover of the story and what are their roles; compare this to your group; then make villians and other good guys who might be in some chess match of their own; feed strings of info to the players; heck, watch some x files; they do this a lot; make up some spooks ie guys the players are not sure which side they are on; maybe have them meet some retired adventures who might know a thing or two and give a lead or some background; watch some old gangster movies so you can work on your delivery and such.
Basically, you need to have a hook; some problem that the pcs should solve; then you need an antagonist; this guy should be pretty tuff and not easy to get to by direct force at least at the beginning; then you need some players meaning other people who have some relations good, bad, vengeful; helpful, whatever with the bad guy; then the pcs need a preliminary success ie some bad guy rats them out; maybe fingers a few higher players or they find some type of treasure or evidence or uncover a plot or discover part of the villian plot to wake a dead god or something; then the players need a setback; ie a impregnable fortress; maybe somebody stops by for a friendly chat and threatens them with hell and highwater; could be anything, maybe your informant if found crucified upside down in the middle of the street; then you need a to prime the pump; ie; some new action like save the girl or the party stops a group of semiweak thugs trying to burn out the home of someone helpful to the pcs; the helpful guy can help the party plan out how to penetrate the fortress (whatever it is; warehouse; castle; dungeon) then it goes back to just H&S for a bit; my upper echelon pc always try to leave to fight another day if they are losing unless things get personal or they are just plain nuts like some CE alignments.
well, hope this helps.
So I'm part way through designing and running my intrigue heavy adventure and am learning various interesting things along the way.
BEING PART I or Urghh...Making Cities is Hard!
First thing I did when my players indicated they would be heading for the capital was do the map. I was pretty excited to do this as I had never really mapped out the most important city in my home brew and here was my opportunity.
Holy frig was this tough. Despite looking around for pretty much a full evening I never could find a program I actually liked to make a city map with. Eventually I just sort of said screw this and opened up a blank space in GIMP and started drawing.
Now it should be noted here that I suck at art and the only way I make anything that looks good is pure elbow grease - I just keep at it until it works oh and I cheat A LOT by using 'shift' to make straight lines with the pencil tool most of the time.
I went and looked at Maldin's site with its pretty online map of Greyhawk. Now my city was a lot different then this - I think this is sort of a fantasy version of a up and coming 11th century city where as I needed a city that had ruled over a vast Empire, had long ago peaked and was now falling into decline slowly going backward from 1600s technology. However this online map gave me an idea of how to draw a city - it would seem their mostly just little blocks on a street plan.
One significant mistake I made was I started with my city - I should have started with what was there before there ever was a city and then loosely worked out how the city evolved before making the final map. I would have gotten a slightly more organic feeling city and I would have saved myself from having to try and work the geography in afterward. I probably could have gotten in some cool natural terrain effects in. Afterward I tried to had a rift from an ancient earthquake but it could not be done as my streams and the canal system would then not work. If I had done this before hand I could have shown off decaying major water mains from a bygone era when people actually understood this technology or some other cool features.
Another thing I learned was that drawing little square blocks is mind numbing. Somewhere around little square block number 3000 I started having fantasies that instead of doing adventure design prep I could instead play Russian Roulette with myself.
Oh, when it comes to designing world, maps etc I am known for doing plenty of pilfering :)
Key is of course to keep sources so obscure that players don't immediately notice them.
If you can find them somewhere, those old Middle Earth sourcebooks by ICE are gold for this purpose, also look through various other gaming sources...or real world (one important city in my homebrew world is directly based on old city of Angkor, because the map was just so cool).
well, I have about a million ideas for this, but without specifics I can only give general advice.
Firstly, you need to have some interesting pc's; assuming your character party is good guys this becomes much easier. Boss type and manipulator type pcs dont usually get involved in violence; they try other options first; they negotiate, bribe, threaten, ignore, buddy up to; do favor for; play lets you and him fight; things like that.
Sometimes a good way to get hack and slash players to try other options is to have npcs or monsters that have something or know something that the players need and cannot get through any other means other than talk; then that npc does the you scratch mine and I will scratch yours plan; ie sends the pc's off on a little quest to earn what they want; might be hack and slash as you have to ween your characters slowly; everybody like a bit of hack and slash now and again.
Keep in mind your characters will get a bit frustrated if you dont take into account that their characters may not be built for diplomacy; try to put a way the dice or put less value on the rolls and get the players and npc's to work out their differences.
you might try an adventure that takes place between two cities whereas two known good guy nobles are having a serious arguement that is escallating an likely to bring about open warfare if someone, ie the pcs, dont step in and settle things down. The open premise could be as simple as each noble feels betrayed by the other about something very personal, then things end up missing and found in the possession of the other, other nobles start polarizing around either side and things escallate; have the nobles control the things that make the city work; things like shipping, water supply, manufacturing, taxation, partroling the highway between the cities. Things should start off small and excallate.
I would suggest doing this over the long term; have the pcs do an adventure that draws them to align with both sides; they should over time see how this escallation is hurting the population as goods and services dissappear; special taxes and "suppossed robbers that only steal the others goods" become a real problem as the lackeys of the nobles lend their support. The situation should become an "us or them" type situation, the pc's have to find out how this got started and find out how this escallated and how is behind all of this and why.
If you like this idea and want some advice on how to develop it at any stage; let me know; if you want a few other adventure ideas, I can do that also.
Ok; one thing about powerful npcs. Your pcs need to feel they matter; and if you have a lot of powerful npcs that is less likely to happen.
Also, you need some powerful nuetral groups; as your in Byzantuim this could be the vikings as they had a powerful contingent there that were the emperors personal guard; if you want more details on this i can provide some historical sources.
power; there are many types; keep in mind that percieved power and real power amounts to the same thing in the eyes of many; a person can be well connected and a mover and shaker and be a very weak fighter personally; there are also very tuff guys that have a lot of personal power and very little influence cause their ideal dont lend well to work and play with others; some of these tend to thing they are above petty bickering; or money or any thing you want them to be above or perhaps have bizarre or otherworldly passions.
Some built in adventure hooks you automatically have by playing in Byzantium are:
1: the tribulation of a stagnant and declining civilization.
2: the constant threat and reality of invasion from Persia
3: the vikings
4: as a metropolis and huge center of trade, every civilation that has trade and merchants end up trading here and they bring all of their prejudices and hostilities with them hehe and body guards and specialists also.
5: all kinds of cloak and dagger stuff from every group with an agenda; see previous entries. The Romans are masters at this stuff.
6: other mercenary groups; they employed lots of specialists.
7: each of these groups should have what amounts to an adventuring group working for them to advance their interests.
In a fantasy world; you need to make the defenses of Constantanople very very tuff; after all they held back the Persians for several hundred years with Greek fire, well disciplined troops, and a thick wall until Europe could recover from the fall of the Western Empire and start repelling the Persian advance after the fall of Constantanople which of course changed its name.
Oh, when it comes to designing world, maps etc I am known for doing plenty of pilfering :)
Key is of course to keep sources so obscure that players don't immediately notice them.
If you can find them somewhere, those old Middle Earth sourcebooks by ICE are gold for this purpose, also look through various other gaming sources...or real world (one important city in my homebrew world is directly based on old city of Angkor, because the map was just so cool).
Well its to late now - I already have little squares permanently burned into my retina. Still maybe others can follow your advice and avoid my sorry state.
well, I have about a million ideas for this, but without specifics I can only give general advice.
I can see your loaded with ideas on adventure ops in this sort of a situation. You've got neat ideas but, in my case and I think Diagles as well, you sort of don't really get to this stage without knowing more or less what kind of adventure you want to run. Its bringing it all together thats the tricky bit - not so much figuring out what one should do with their city once its made.
Firstly, you need to have some interesting pc's; assuming your character party is good guys this becomes much easier. Boss type and manipulator type pcs dont usually get involved in violence; they try other options first; they negotiate, bribe, threaten, ignore, buddy up to; do favor for; play lets you and him fight; things like that.
I'd say my goal is more to bring my hack and slash heavy PCs into this not have the players make intrigue orientated PCs to begin with. My goal is to have this represent a change of pace - something that happens between exploring evil crypts and delving the depths of the Underdark as opposed to the focus of the entire campaign.
Sometimes a good way to get hack and slash players to try other options is to have npcs or monsters that have something or know something that the players need and cannot get through any other means other than talk; then that npc does the you scratch mine and I will scratch yours plan; ie sends the pc's off on a little quest to earn what they want; might be hack and slash as you have to ween your characters slowly; everybody like a bit of hack and slash now and again.
I'd think this plotline would usually be better saved for the dungeon - this can be used to introduce PCs to a roleplaying situation in a hack heavy environment which is good for that kind of an adventure. Once one is actually in a city, a role playing heavy environment you don't really have to resort to this trick so much as usually just killing all the NPCs is not that much of an option.
Keep in mind your characters will get a bit frustrated if you dont take into account that their characters may not be built for diplomacy; try to put a way the dice or put less value on the rolls and get the players and npc's to work out their differences.
True - I go on and on about this on Searn's The Scale of Ability Checks Thread about ability scores. I pretty much implemented house rules that reduced the diplomacy skill down to a much more manageable level. My solution makes it more likely that anyone can succeed but it also makes it so anyone can fail. One effect of this is that having multiple ways to accomplish a task is important because the players may have to try a couple of different ways to get what they want.
Ok; one thing about powerful npcs. Your pcs need to feel they matter; and if you have a lot of powerful npcs that is less likely to happen.
I'm finding that the PCs modus operandi is throw our weight around so far as is possible. In general I've found that the major NPCs need to have some significant influence or power if one wants the PCs to not get it into their head that their organization can just be more or less co-opted. One does not really need to be all that high level to peddle influence but even levels of aristocrat or commoner can make a powerful individual more resistant to spells and such.
Also, you need some powerful nuetral groups; as your in Byzantuim this could be the vikings as they had a powerful contingent there that were the emperors personal guard; if you want more details on this i can provide some historical sources.power; there are many types; keep in mind that percieved power and real power amounts to the same thing in the eyes of many; a person can be well connected and a mover and shaker and be a very weak fighter personally; there are also very tuff guys that have a lot of personal power and very little influence cause their ideal dont lend well to work and play with others; some of these tend to thing they are above petty bickering; or money or any thing you want them to be above or perhaps have bizarre or otherworldly passions.
Some built in adventure hooks you automatically have by playing in Byzantium are:
1: the tribulation of a stagnant and declining civilization.
2: the constant threat and reality of invasion from Persia
3: the vikings
4: as a metropolis and huge center of trade, every civilation that has trade and merchants end up trading here and they bring all of their prejudices and hostilities with them hehe and body guards and specialists also.
5: all kinds of cloak and dagger stuff from every group with an agenda; see previous entries. The Romans are masters at this stuff.
6: other mercenary groups; they employed lots of specialists.
7: each of these groups should have what amounts to an adventuring group working for them to advance their interests.In a fantasy world; you need to make the defenses of Constantinople very very tuff; after all they held back the Persians for several hundred years with Greek fire, well disciplined troops, and a thick wall until Europe could recover from the fall of the Western Empire and start repelling the Persian advance after the fall of Constantinople which of course...
Daigle is doing a fantasy Constantinople so maybe he can use some of these ideas.
I'm not actually doing Fantasy Constantinople - it sort of sounds like I am because I mention corrupt decaying city and in western culture thats a heuristic for the decline and fall of the Eastern Roman Empire and its capital city but its not really my source.
I'm not even really sure what my source is. When I started working on this campaign about 25 years ago I started with the premise of 'reverse wild west' civilization is slowly being overrun by goblinoids and their ilk. A major addendum to that has become the idea of a vast and powerful civilization thats actually regressing technologically going backward from high fantasy 1600s era technology, these days I think about it like a high point comparable to Eberon, but very slowly, they loose a little bit of knowledge every generation even as the goblinoids overrun a little bit more of the frontier every generation and this has been going on for hundreds of years. Its so slow however that most of the people don't recognize that they are in terminal decline. My players have figured out because they find the no longer used but faintly magical 'lightning rail' tracks but their characters don't usually no what they are looking at beyond 'debris of a bygone era'.
|
|
The Norwich Byzantine trilogy is brilliant. And if you like that, I'll also suggest his duology on Norman Sicily. It's not quite as well written, IMO, but the subject carries the writing.
On the original question:
I like to foreshadow the players' involvement in the intrigue by having the results of the shadow war occur without explanation around the players. Bodies appear in the streets and no charges are made; NPCs are publicly discredited by stories that appear from nowhere; houses are torched in the middle of the night.
As the players get more powerful, they start to draw the attention of the principals in the war. Suddenly, they might be recruited to perform some minor task for unclear reasons. Shortly thereafter, they become the targets of the sorts of random assassinations (character or otherwise), that they've seen happening to others.
Since they don't really know what's happening, they can't respond with "the old ultra-violence" without causing even bigger problems for themselves. At this point, more RP-specific actions are the logical response. And as more of the mystery is revealed, more of the previously unexplained stuff starts to make more sense, which helps to reinforce the players' roleplaying.
This is fundamentally a very common sort of storyline in novels and movies. Take a look at Hitchcock's North by Northwest for a classic example. Even if the protagonist were inclined to solve his problem by killing the right people, he has no idea who the right people might be until the very end of the movie.
Finally, you don't necessarily have to have the whole web of weirdness detailed at the start. A few random events can usually be woven together post hoc without too much trouble.
Being Part II or Help I Need names for a bazaillion NPCs
When I finally finished my city all the hours of labour suddenly seemed worth it. Its beautiful and huge, about 3 feet by 3 feet. Definitely a strong sense of accomplishment to go along with the little square blocks permanently burned into my retina.
At this point its time to start laying out whats in some of the buildings. For a DM trained over the years to make or modify adventures based on the formats one uses in Dungeon making a city is really rather counter to the training.
In an adventure you generally only include the details the players can learn about. Maybe there are a few sentences explaining things for the DMs benefit but most writing is based around the idea that the players will actually run through this encounter.
City writing has not been like that. I have no idea what my players might do or where they might visit but I want a city with lots of possible options because otherwise it does not seem like a city. The result has been a ton of writing most of which probably won't be interacted with by the players during the adventure. I console myself in this regards by reminding myself that this city is the most important city in my home-brew for all time and I can use this material in later campaigns too.
I eventually placed 124 buildings in my city and marked them on a map and handout for my players. I arranged the building numbering so that there was a list of the different parts of the city (nobles district, docks, foreigners quarter etc.) and then the buildings were numbered within these districts. Bit of a balancing act with this. The districts have to be large enough to have a number of interesting buildings in them and to seem organic to the city but small enough that the players can scan them when looking for a building number.
I found that it was impossible to keep the buildings numbered in a close sequence. Two reasons for that. One is that I found it important to write down and include buildings as I thought them up for fear of forgetting interesting details and that meant dealing with buildings all over the map in a more random sequence then just dealing with every building in the Docks District before moving on to the Nobles District.
Beyond this the city will have more buildings added to it in this campaign and in subsequent campaigns. The numbering sequence is going to get messed up one way or another. I might as well learn to live with that now.
In choosing buildings I found the DMG II pretty helpful as it lists a huge number of possible occupations in a fantasy city and most occupations are centred around one or more buildings. Writing about Alcan Windweaver the Mercer eventually started to get pretty boring but on the upside by the time I was done with detailing each location with at least a paragraph (sometimes a small paragraph) my city had really begun to take on a life of its own. Now I knew that the Dungsweepers where paid through city taxs but that the service was still uneven with these guys keeping the noble and temple district much cleaner then the warrens where the really poor lived. It all began to add to the atmosphere of the city and breathe life into it.
Another mistake I made with this aspect of my city was that I drew the building numbers onto my map - but some of these buildings change state during my adventure so now I'm going to have to figure out how to erase them from my map without doing to much damage. It might have been better to just have kept the number key as a separate layer.
Another big problem with this part of the adventure was names. By convention the main ethnic group that inhabit my city use weather aspects as surnames, so dawnwalker, cloudsinger, stormbringer etc. I'm not sure I ever considered the full implications of this when I tried to think up names for people inhabiting 124 different buildings. A good list of fantasy names is kind of essential for detailing the buildings in ones city.
Non H&S games rely on political intrigue, financial malfeasance, social maladjustment and general personal disfunctionality of about everybody the PCs come into contact with. Watch any random Soap Opera (“Daytime Television”) or any themed night time series (CSI [any of them], NYPD Blues [or comparable], The Sopranos, etc.) and take ideas from these to begin building the web of intrigues that can be used for the “clue hunting” necessary to create a non- or reduced-combative adventure. Once you’ve done it a couple of times it gets easier. Frankly, I prefer less combat and more puzzles of various kinds. Characters don’t dies as often and the party can really jell with these kinds of stories in ways they just can’t in a blood-spewing romp.
Well, I am thinking you really dont need all these names; pc types are unlikely to visit all the buildings and if you town is large; unlikely to meet very many people that they will know the names of; though it is always nice to say things like; as you enter the pub as smell the smoke of cooking and spiced meet from the back and your eyes adjust to the dim interior; you see several round tables filled with patrons; some you recongnise like; the blacksmiths two assistants; a crew of five porters and the carpender and barrel maker; there are two young girls waiting tables; the oldest of them you saw in the market this morning purchasing foodstuffs....blah blah; as you continue; this sort of thing tends to give a good start; as the pc visit various places you an fill in the names.
At the moment, I think you should work on the people by occupation that it takes to keep the community viable and add a few other types; such as; the blacksmith shop; perhaps it is a family business; one elder blackmith who is about 65 and his sons about 50 and the other about 45; their cousin; about 30 and three assistants; one of their sons and two cousins. ok; so you have a shop; how many other shops are their; are they a guild; is there a goldsmith; silversmith; blacksmith; weaponsmith; armorsmith; meaning you need to decide from the size of the community how specialized and how organized they are. This is what I mean about filing in numbers and occupations; as the pc types visit these places; they may see these people about town doing tasks; perhaps the porters deliver blacksmith goods; maybe the carpender regularly purchases nails; everything should fit together; you only need names if the pcs bother toask for a name or they introduces himself.
well, my two bits.
|
|
A tip for using that type of naming convention would be making two lists.
List A would be the first part of the name, list B the second part
a short example:
A
1: Dawn
2: Dusk
3: Storm
4: Snow
5: Fair
6: Cloud
B
1: Singer
2: Walker
3: Dancer
4: Bringer
When you need a name in a pinch, you can roll for it, in this case 1d6 + 1d4 - gives you 24 possible name combinations. If you get a bum combination, you can reroll
---
Another tip is prepare things without placing them. If you have to have a tavern in a certain place, put it there. Otherwise, when you feel like creating a tavern, with a few notes and adventure hooks, go ahead and do it. The next time the party is in the market district and says what is the closest tavern, you can pull it out.
Of course once you do, it is stuck in the market district forever, but it is easier to have 1 or 2 taverns in limbo than to define every tavern in the city all at once.
Well, I am thinking you really dont need all these names; pc types are unlikely to visit all the buildings and if you town is large; unlikely to meet very many people that they will know the names of; though it is always nice to say things like; as you enter the pub as smell the smoke of cooking and spiced meet from the back and your eyes adjust to the dim interior; you see several round tables filled with patrons; some you recongnise like; the blacksmiths two assistants; a crew of five porters and the carpender and barrel maker; there are two young girls waiting tables; the oldest of them you saw in the market this morning purchasing foodstuffs....blah blah; as you continue; this sort of thing tends to give a good start; as the pc visit various places you an fill in the names.
At the moment, I think you should work on the people by occupation that it takes to keep the community viable and add a few other types; such as; the blacksmith shop; perhaps it is a family business; one elder blackmith who is about 65 and his sons about 50 and the other about 45; their cousin; about 30 and three assistants; one of their sons and two cousins. ok; so you have a shop; how many other shops are their; are they a guild; is there a goldsmith; silversmith; blacksmith; weaponsmith; armorsmith; meaning you need to decide from the size of the community how specialized and how organized they are. This is what I mean about filing in numbers and occupations; as the pc types visit these places; they may see these people about town doing tasks; perhaps the porters deliver blacksmith goods; maybe the carpender regularly purchases nails; everything should fit together; you only need names if the pcs bother toask for a name or they introduces himself.
well, my two bits.
In my case I don't really have to worry about my PCs running into people they have encountered before outside of their establishment. I mean it could happen but the city has 200.000 people living in it so its not likely to happen.
A tip for using that type of naming convention would be making two lists.
List A would be the first part of the name, list B the second part
a short example:
A
1: Dawn
2: Dusk
3: Storm
4: Snow
5: Fair
6: CloudB
1: Singer
2: Walker
3: Dancer
4: BringerWhen you need a name in a pinch, you can roll for it, in this case 1d6 + 1d4 - gives you 24 possible name combinations. If you get a bum combination, you can reroll
This is brilliant. I'll have to use this.
|
A good way to introduce intrigue to a group used to hack-n-slash is with a tournament game. Each of the characters takes upon the role of a warrior (fighters, paladins and multiclassed melee types work best) who has been invited to attend the tournament games of a powerful lord. The reward is something spectacular and mysterious (they know it’s worth having, but they're not sure what it is). Each warrior is allowed to bring a NPC second: a squire, advisor, loved one, whatever. The tournament is filled with colorful, distinctive NPC warriors, twice to three times the number of PCs, who are in the same boat.
The goal is ostensibly to win the series of duels hosted over the week, but this should only be possible by winning the game of intrigue and favor that takes place at the feats, parties and backroom meeting between events. Wise players will learn:
- The weakness and strengths of the contestants, mental and physical. PCs get bonuses depending on what you can learn.
- Their dirty tricks (who will poison their blade? Who will cast a curse?) This could protect a PC from a swift defeat.
- Who has allied with who.
- Who plans to throw their match and why.
- How to get wealthy in a week of betting.
- Who the host of the event publicly favors. They get a bonus in combat.
- Who the host secretly favors. They get the best dirty tricks.
- How to win the favor of the crowd. Warriors get bonuses when they cheer.
- What the prize actually is.
...etc.
If you do it right, the players will have a blast fighting on both fronts: physical and social.
Being Part III or You want to go where?!?
So I finally introduce my players to my city. They teleported in and so start off more or less not sure what to do. I give them handouts of all the buildings I have marked down to give them some ideas of some of the places they could go visit.
They're actually sort of instantly pretty confused. As far as their original plans go they just kind of planned to show up in the city, shot the breeze with the Emperor and borrow his daughters hair brush so they could cast some spells on it. Then it was off to the 'real' adventure involving killing lots of undead and such.
However once their actually faced with a full blown city it all seems so much more complicated. I mean the Emperor presumably lives in this big keep off the coast and there are probably guards and stuff and arranging for a meeting is not really so simple.
The city is loaded with various locations that can lead to information on their furthering adventures and I kind of figured they'd want to check into this sort of thing but once in the city – well their seriously off the rail road tracks now.
Thing is my players are not really sure what to do – their just kind of waiting for me to tell them what to do. Eventually they seem to figure out that I'm not going to tell them what to do and they decide to find an inn. Easy enough – one is listed. I actually have to point that out though thats a bit of DM leading – I want them in a particular location so I can more easily work in a couple of cool set piece encounters.
The players settle in at the main 'Adventurers' Inn in the city and check out some of the sights here which make it clear that they are not the only some what odd ball people around – other adventuring groups exist and they have half-dragons and Feytouched etc. in their ranks.
At this point the players decide – after much argument – to split up and each pick out what they want to do for the day. Here I bump into a couple of problems. Problem number one is that this essentially creates six separate encounters each involving one PC. Which leaves five players in each encounter as spectators. I play very loose in this regard allowing players to make suggestions etc, to try and keep these types of scenes interactive (it makes it hard to betray each other as well – which is pretty much fine by me). Still this means that, even though each encounter only runs about a half-hour every player is not playing for the next two and a half hours.
Beyond this exactly one player does something off my list of places to visit. That is to say I have one encounter that I'm basically prepared for. That one encounter runs well and is filled with some pretty good roleplaying as well as filling in some player gaps in knowledge – especially for the player concerned. Several players choose to spend their time engaged in what seem to be more or less trivial activities. My female newbie insists on going to buy soap and having a bath – admittedly she does point out that no one has had a good bath in ages ... I'm not as well prepared to roleplay that scene as maybe I should have been ... it kind of comes straight out of left field.
Several players insist on going places I had not thought of or researching things that I had not thought of – I kind of fumble through this with gather information checks but these encounters seem rather unfulfilling. My Celestial Paladin Player insists on pretty much contacting the most powerful person in the military and telling him what's what. Not only am I unprepared for this but I'm unprepared for the implications. Its the kind of encounter that can't happen – not while I have not had some time to think about this. I mean I know for sure that I'm not letting a player make a diplomacy check that he is unlikely to fail that would give him control of the armies of the Empire. Beyond this seeming unreasonable in general it damages my whole story line of intrigue in order to get the Empire moving 'slowly' in the direction the PCs think it should go.
I kind of throw this player on a run around – this is made much more difficult as the player is friggen hot with the die rolling natural 20s on his diplomacy check right and left. I manage to get that sort of scewed by being strict with the checks - “no no – that nat 20 just convinced the guards to let you into the military administration – does not work with the..uhh...military secretary that's here....commander in chief...he's umm...not in right now....”.
Frustrated the player finally gives up on this tack convinced that the military in incompetent. Not really what I wanted to convey about them but the best I could do on short notice.
After this round about the players have pretty much had it with exploring the city – if the military won't speak to them then the Emperor will ... and lets get on to the next fight.
At this point I pretty much decide that my players need some bad guys to kick in the door 'cause if they don't kill something pronto they might just decide to find out what CR the Emperor is.
I manage to end the session with a pretty dramatic scene where the players are ambushed on their way to administration building by some butt kicking Mercenary thugs led by a Double Wand Wielder. The ambush takes place just as a major act of sabotage in the city sets off a tower filled with Alchemists fire causing a thunderous explosion and a rain of fire to come falling out of the sky over a period of about 10 square blocks. Next session the players would duel for their lives against the backdrop of a city going up in flames.
I found the session frustrating in a number of ways.
The split group led to boredom.
The encounters often did not seem interactive enough. I had to skip out on lots of stuff that was supposed to just add atmosphere because my players where not so keen to just listen to me babble. I found it difficult to convey the atmosphere of the city in a manner that was interactive. This was particularly true because, in most cases, my players would not interact unless there was an obvious adventuring reason to do so. They did not want me to just babble at them but, on the other hand they where not trying to interact with things going on around them either.
Their plans all seem to either be stuff I'm not ready for or they just aim to bulldoze their way forward. I figured they'd check in on things in the city that I had prepped for and would surely come upon some of the loose threads lying around that would trigger the intrigue heavy adventure – but their not biting the bait and are keen to just kind of bulldoze their way forward. I can stop them and its even 'realistic' by miring them in the bureaucracy ... but it means spending game time while I actively give them the run around. On a metagame level this seems...well pointless. Worse then pointless actually frustrating for my players – I thought of saying 'Uncle' and letting them have their way (so often that's the easiest way out – let the players do what they want to do) but I don't want them telling the Emperor what's what. Its a mess to try and deal with in terms of game mechanics. But maybe most importantly if they get to tell the Emperor what's what then their done here and they'll just teleport away leaving this story behind and its something they really should get connected with for later in the campaign. Ultimately the adventures they have been going through for the last 10 levels connect to the capital in various ways. The place is a treasure chest of information if only they will look.
Almost all of my games require social skills, because there are consequences for actions. Yes, that lord on the hill may be an evil vampire, but he's governed efficiently for 200 years and the town has prospered. So a prostitute disappears once in a while? The town turns a blind eye, and if you just go up there and kill him you'll have an entire region on your tail. Just because the paladin detects evil on someone doesn't give him the right to stalk the NPC. Because the law differentiates between evil intent and evil actions. If you strongarm the local magistrate to release an "innocent" prisoner, maybe people who were previously friendly or allies suddenly stop associating with you because you've created a political mess for them. The key to preventing the H&S mentality is to make sure there are consequences for actions.
A party that routinely resolves conflict with violence may earn a bad rep. Maybe vendors charge them more for services. While a party that resolves problems with non-violence earns the respect of the church and gets special boons.
========
Julie
Bards and Sages.
Being Part IV or What is this the Kitty Game?
The 3rd session in my attempt to run a city adventure goes down really smooth. Its nothing but a single 3 hour fight with the mercenaries that ambushed the players. Good fight, one player dies so I guess I'm happy.
With this being a fight and all I'm completely in my element and so are my players. Easy fun session but in no way really a 'city campaign' session except that the buildings on each side of the street became part of the terrain.
The following session is a conversion of the Dungeon Adventure A Hot Day in L'Trel. I've beefed up a number of the encounters and had to modify it fairly heavily to deal with the fact that my players are around 10th level, the city is question is much larger and much more high magic then L'Trel and the NPCs in the city are often much more powerful and likely to be more active then the situation in L'Trel was.
These aspects mostly I can handle. I have prep time and I can add various encounters. The problem with this adventure is that its essentially just a 'road' adventure. These tend to be the most linear adventures around. Its irrelevant which way my players go - they simply bump into one encounter after another. Thats OK I suppose but it does not really feel very dynamic at all.
The other aspect that seems to somewhat frustrate my players is that they don't really feel like the adventure is really worthy of them. "Yes of course we save the woman and her baby - sure we'll heal this guy thats been hurt by a cart". "Looters? Well we could kill them but thats overkill - Do they run off if high level adventures use intimidate checks on them?" (My ruling is yes - yes they do).
There is nothing really wrong with the adventure as it plays out but my players don't much enjoy the fact that they can't really do much but wander from encounter to encounter randomly saving the odd person here and there. This would all be fine if they where saving a whole town or something but saving random commoners does not really get their blood up.
As the session begins to head toward a close I start cutting encounters sensing that the players are not going to want to be doing this next session. Especially the player who's character died in the last fight. He has a good back up character who can be brought into the campaign if the mage takes some time to teleport him in from another city - but that means I can't introduce a character for him in the actual fire and the mage player can't stop to memorize a couple of teleports until they deal with the the fire thats in their face. This leaves the player running the Cohort of the dead Paladin for this adventure - even thats something of a stretch, the Cohort should be gone with the death of the player in question, but as its a Brass Dragon I rule that it will stick around long enough to help commoners in this tragedy before heading off to make its own way in the world.
One bit of silver lining is that the players - after the fire is under control, decide to use the last half-hour of the play session to go check out one of the city encounters that does lead into my intrigue heavy plot line. The fire means that the players no longer think they can just bulldoze their way into meeting the Emperor - he's got to be too busy to see them under this circumstance. This provides me with a chance to try and actually start getting this show on the road.
In the end its not the worst session I ever ran but I suppose I probably should have kept this to something more around 5th level - by 10th my players seem to feel that by and large I'm wasting their time with this whole fire thing.
Let the players drive the story (not the adventure). Prepare a bunch of "drop in" encounters. Encounters that can easily be dropped in to multiple scinarios...
This is the holy grail right here! Though I would expand on it even more. Let the stories of your characters be THE story, the adventure, the whole deal. Talk about your characters with their players. No one hates talking about their characters. Winnow their backstories for details to use in the games--and use it as reward, not punishment. If someone is being hunted by a powerful green dragon. Do not use this as an opportunity to have the green dragon show up and school everyone every third session, or folks will stop putting that kind of detail in their characters. Instead find ways your character can find advantages over his draconic enemy and let him start scheming about how he wants to start taking it to him. If someone comes from a small village, have him run into a ne'er do well childhood friend from home with news about what's going on and a sackfull of troubles to drag the characters into. Sculpt adventures from the stone of your characters and they will in turn make better, deeper, richer characters.
The Norwich Byzantine trilogy is brilliant. And if you like that, I'll also suggest his duology on Norman Sicily. It's not quite as well written, IMO, but the subject carries the writing.
Thanks, I'll check it out!!
Been away for a while, so I guess some small update is necessary. The game so far is going well. They are on a ship, headed down river to the Imperial City. So far they have:
a. Aided villages along the river ravaged by the Gnoll armies
b. Rescued 2 crew members who were kidnapped by Troglodytes in the swamp. THis was pretty hack and slashy, but they carried it off well, and we all had fun.
c. Encountered the Pirate Lord (Dragon), to whom the crew members had been promised as tribute :) And the gnollish ambassadors had already arrived, making him a ot less likely to help. So he was pissed, and when they didn't offer any other form of tribute to replace the slaves, he kicked them out.
d. They found themselves in the middle of a Bullywug war over a giant magical lillypad where caster duels are held. And they lost 2/3 of their caster duels, and lots of gold in the duels and dice games that followed :)
e. Now they are exploring a huge temple in the middle of a grassy swamp. they know its off mission, but like anything else, if you describe it, they will come :) There's a talking statue, and fear and fatigue effects in play. always a good time :)
Of course, as this is moving along, I have been offered a new job in Virginia. Long way to make a weekly game happen in Tampa, so this campaign will never end. One of my players is going to keep the storylines going (we have 2 parallel stories right now), so we'll see where that ends up. Thanks again for all the insight.
Now, does anyone know of a game anywhere near Winchester VA? :)
The big bad (censored) guarding the entrance to the dungeon that has a CR way above the party level is a good example.
This is a very frequently offered bit of advice. I disagree with it. In my experience this leads to an arms race with the PCs or, worse, the feeling that you are a killer DM.
Give them encounters in which they can use Gather Information, Diplomacy, and Knowledge skills.
I like this idea much better. I would go a step further, let the players create their own opportunities to use skills to overcome obstacles. Instead of saying 'no' every time they come up with some hare-brained idea…let it work. Or, if you do not want to hand them the keys to the city so easily, let there be some useful consequence to their scheme.
First, talk it over with your players, because if they want hack and slash, they will hack and slash.
Beat me to it!
Fifth, break it up.
Stop reading my mind!
Sixth, character control…
I disagree. See point Fifth. I do not think any particular class is exclusively anti-social. Even being anti-social does not exclude useful skills.
One fun mechanic to get your players to RP is to make the rewards scale to their RP quality.
Good point. If you really want to be heavy handed, no XP for killing things and taking their stuff. XP only for RP.
No one else seems to have mentioned it so far, but you can shift your XP awards to partly or all "Story Award", leaving some for combat and/or some for roleplay.
Exactly.
I am sorry to hear that you will have to leave your current group. I wish you luck in the future.
I am late to the party, but you just know I could not resist this thread.
I should like to re-iterate what a few others have mentioned. Talk with your players first (I know this no longer applied to the OP, but others who may wander in here for advice). Forcing your H&S to become a bunch of Narrativist is the way to chaos. Also, as I learned from No More Mr. Nice Guy, the opposite of crazy is still crazy. No combat whatsoever can be a very boring game. Interest in a game is created by conflict (not the same as combat). Conflict can escalate to combat.
I do not run H&S games…but then I do not really run intrigue laden games either. To me (I may be in the minority here), the PCs are the story. I follow them. This requires the players to have characters with goals and ambitions beyond killing things and taking their stuff. This requires the GM to grant rewards beyond XP, leveling up and becoming more bad (censored).
Sit down with your players and ask them what they want their characters to achieve, then help them get there.