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I don't want to rehash what has already been said as far as how terrible this is and what a horrible idea it was by Wizards to kill Dragon and Dungeon - many thousands have said it already. And I will not go into a long discussion about how the magazine industry is still VERY much alive and well (I've worked in magazine publishing for 16 years) and that most people do NOT prefer to go online instead of read a printed magazine, so Wizards' main reason for killing Dragon & Dungeon is just plain hogwash...
Here is what I AM wondering ...
By now, Wizards HAS to have a pretty good idea that the VAST majority of fans are very much against this move - look at the overwhelmingly negative posts here on these message boards, Wizards' own message boards, other gaming sites as well as the large amount of negative feedback Wizards' customer service reps have received from angry gamers.
So the question is, what is going on in the inner circles of Wizards right now? I think it's safe to say that they expected some negative reaction, but I'm guessing they were not prepared for the almost 100% complete backlash that has occurred. They also most likely were hoping for more excitement to be generated by this nebulous 'digital initiative' they touted instead of the poor initial response they are getting for that as well.
I wonder if they are scrambling right now to find a way to back peddle a bit and do some PR damage control, are they thinking this is somehow all going according to some great plan, or do they really just not care that much.
I think it is VERY interesting, as well as very telling that Wizards has done very little to address this other than a few rather lame press release type statements etc. You'll notice that Paizo has gone way above and beyond the call of duty to address the situation, take care of subscribers and provide stellar customer service during this situation. Compare the way Paizo has dealt with this to the way Wizards has.
So, we all KNOW Wizards reads these boards (as well as others, including there own boards where I've also posted this) ... why will they not join the discussion or at least provide some real answers. Do they honestly care what WE want, or do they care mainly for what THEY want to ram down out collective throats?
To the folks at Wizards - if you truly do care about us, the fans (and the ones that pay for these D&D products let's never forget) ... how about you stop hiding and avoiding and start facing the music. Answer our questions and provide us with some honest answers ... not just more corporate PR BS.
So come on Wizards – the proverbial gauntlet has been thrown down. It’s your move.
You should also realize that the people railing on this message board are not an accurate representation of the gaming population as a whole... (using these message boards as represntitive would be infact the equivilent of conductiong a pole about whether people liked the idea of a tax cut for people who made more then $100,000 a year if people who make less then that will have to suffer a slight increase, and only asking people who actually made more then $100,000 a year) .
Yes, there are many people (myself included) who think that this is a really bad move, but if you look on other message boards, you will see that there is a smaller percentage of total posters who are up in arms about it.
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All valid points ...
However ...
I actually have looked on many other message boards and sites, including Wizards own message board and the overwealming attitude is very negative toward this move. Please understand that I realize people on these Paizo boards are almost certain to be against the death of Dragon and Dungeon - it only makes sense. However, the tide seems very much against Wizards on this on all fronts and I'm very curious why Wizards has been all but silent regarding it.
Also, Dragon and Dungeon DID make money. They were profitable magazines, that much is certain so saying Wizards killed them because they were not making money is simply not true. Also, these were liscenses, which means Paizio paid Wizards a fee to publish the magazines. Wizards made money, regardless of how the magazines were doing. The magazines were profitable, Paizo was making money, Wizards was making money, everyone should have been happy.
I respect everyone's opinon and please trust me ... I am a very rational person on this. I simply want real answers from the people at Wizards that decided to take these magazines away from us.
They (Wizards) did mention a few times about bringing similar content to the internet. I assume that the people who work for Hasbro and Wizards specifically on D&D do it because they love D&D, not because thye're big fans of Hasbro.
Maybe they're somewhat right about internet content being the way to go for whatever it is they have planned? Along with that, perhaps they trusted Paizo to use their muscle in the industry to bring along top-notch OGL products, which would, if successful, help the industry as a whole and thus, WotC's new online product/s?
I know those are a couple of big maybes, not to mention a bit idealistic, but behind the business these are real guys and gals working on this stuff who obviously care a lot about pen-and-paper roleplaying, both at WotC and at Paizo. They've got to think about this kind of stuff, even if their PR people don't let them say much publicly. Maybe, just maybe, the Wizards realized (or thought/hoped) that allowing such a professional company like Paizo to concentrate fully on the OGL would only be good for the industry, which means good for them, too.
Ok, I'll say it again.
Consider that of the entire population of D&D gamers, people either are, or are not, consumers of the magazine.
The cancellation of the mags affects NONE of the people who were NOT magazine consumers.
The cancellation of the mags affects ALL of the people who WERE consumers of the magazines.
WotC has a new product, their Digitial Initiative.
Of all the people who were NOT mag consumers, a certain percentage will become users of the DI _regardless_ of whether or not the magazines exist.
Since the percentage of the total population of gamers who were magazine consumers is most likely in the minority, allowing the magazines to continue existing likely would not have affected the DI negatively.
Thus canceling the magazines can have only two logical reasons (imho): 1. to force all magazine consumers to choose the DI, since there will no longer be the magazines for "Official D&D content", or 2. to regain control over that "official content".
Remember, canceling the mags ONLY affects _consumers_ of the mags, NOT those who were _not_ consumers of the mag, so quite simply Hasbro or WotC made a deliberate decision to affect WE, the readers of the mag.
all i'm going to say, is i don't care about the reasonings or what not, the place where i play D&D is not by an computer, and i don't have a laptop, none of my friends do ether, and i don't feel like dragging around my desktop, and the monitor, etc. it's just easier if you can bring something like the mag you need, an looking at it in good clean old fashion paper, i mean come on, saying there putting in online is like saying their going to stop making the rule books and only have them online, not to mention i just got around to reging for dragon and dungeon, and now it's going away.
im glad someone else feels this way how can you say there here for pen and paper gaming with a keyboard in your had. i guess i could print it out and store the content in nice neat binders but not many gamers i know have the long term organizational abilites for that one. but to get to the topic at hand. all i want is an admission of guilt. if your taking it away to save money, fine just say so. dont pull a bush and just use the same quote to answer every question. and if their intentions are as noble as so many want to defend them think they are then wouldnt it be in their best interest to just say so. regardless however, i am a gamer whore and, im sure, will continue to buy they're wonderfull crack, i mean books. yeah books. (to anyone who reads this as soapbox preachy i assure you its more of a lazy rant)
I think it has all illustrated quite well the fundamental difference between Paizo's view of its relationship with their customers, and WotC's view. The Paizo view is more collegial, where a more open discussion goes on (as much as can happen in a competitive business relationship). There is transparency, with Paizo employees (from the very top on down) participating fully in dialogue (and not just here on their own boards!), taking input from customers, explaining current and future actions. Customers even collaborate in producing actual product.
WotC views it more as a matriarchal (or patriarchal) relationship. Mother knows best for the child. Explanations are not necessary as the child wouldn't understand anyways, thus discussion is limited to what little mother decides to tell the child (and discussion is mostly limited to home). "Whine all you want, but I make the decisions around here." I genuinely believe that WotC truly thinks that once "we are old enough", we'll see the wisdom of their dictatorial decisions, that we'll agree that their decisions were best.
Personally, I prefer the collegial relationship.
Denis, aka "Maldin"
Maldin's Greyhawk http://melkot.com
What grapevine did you hear this through?
It sounds like plausible speculation, but this is the first I've heard that particular thought. Is it from a reliable source?
Just to serve as a second source, I've heard this speculation bandied about on the Greytalk List. It's (TTBOMK) nothing substantiated but it DOES explain the move more logically, from a business perspective, than the 'official' explanation.
Then I guess the real question is... can I make twenty million dollars between now and the day the Dungeons & Dragons line goes up for sale? I figure they'll sell it at far too high a price, but that's alright, my daydreams are made of money. Once I own it I'll keep it a private company. Don't worry, it will maintain its tradition, yet it will continue to evolve. It will honor the past while looking toward the future. Paizo, WotC, and the freelance giants in the industry will continue to have a job, and talented fans will be expected to contribute and become the giants of tomorrow. I speak of a new age, an age of--am I elected yet?
The Jade, you could always try writing to Mr. Bill Gates. He's worth a bit, and might have played D&D in the past. Suggest the creation of a not-for-profit company that produces D&D, with Paizo reacquiring the license for free (although I'm not sure they'd be interested). Oh yes, but don't reinstate the "novel" department (no offense meant to those who've written novels for TSR or WotC); it might be more profitable than the magazines were, but hey.
And for the controversial part... ** spoiler omitted **
Hmm, I wonder...
Not-for-profit? So would proceeds beyond the recoup of expenses go to charity?
Paizo's got my vote to stay on in whichever capacity they'd like, or to convince me of some other dream they've had in mind, so long as Buhlman, just once, calls me Lord Barton and does a little jig while wearing a Tuna suit. For something like this, you've got to choose the guy who'd least want to do it (Lisa would bring her own back-up dancers)... then give him a raise afterward so he doesn't shoot you in the parking lot. And by parking lot I mean groin.
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I just got a good look at Gleemax.com, which Wizards is touting as the 'answer' to Dragon, and have never been more revolted in my life.
To think that Hitler's Brain in a jar could supplant Dragon...
Further more, reading in the user agreements, site licenses etc, I found out something I find more revolting yet.
Wizards owns everyhting you post there. All your homebrew is now thier property if you use it. Further fun, according to thier EUA you agree tehy don't hae to credit you or remit a dime of payment if they publish your creation in thier own books.
That's just wrong, because it IS NOT on thier front page, nor to they inform you of it at any point in the sign up process.
I just got a good look at Gleemax.com, which Wizards is touting as the 'answer' to Dragon, and have never been more revolted in my life.
Maybe you should take a closer look.
I just got a good look at Gleemax.com, which Wizards is touting as the 'answer' to Dragon, and have never been more revolted in my life.
Baaron, yes it is revolting, but Gleemax.com is NOT the DI that replaces Dragon and Dungeon. It has been said repeatedly that it is not the DI, so if you have some evidence to the contrary, please provide it.
As for their EUA and taking ownership of your work, yeah that is lame, but a lot people will never know because they don't bother to read it, or think it matters. It's the same as Yahoo Geocities. If you publish anything on a web page through Yahoo Geocities, they technically have reprint rights.
Short answer, never publish your material anywhere but on your own site with a private web host.
But no, Gleemax is not the DI. That would be soooo lame if it was. (Not that I plan to pick up the DI whatever it is, I've already said NO to WotC.)
I will say this...
With the cancellation of Dragon, Hasbro has lost the $30+ of my subscription per year.
I remember the last time Dragon (and Dungeon) ceased production. Let's just say that "...it was a cold, bitter time for gamers."
It seems that the rotting corpse of TSR is haunting the halls of Hasbro, and a bell is sounding for a wizard whose time is nigh.
-J
Oh...by the way, gleemax looks like something I sneezed out, but we will see what becoms of THIS "technological terror" that they are constructing.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I really miss TSR. This would never have happened on their watch.Actually... it did happen on their watch. Both magazines ceased publication for several months before WotC bought the game and, effectively, saved the magazines from oblivion.
So there's technically still hope for Dragon and Dungeon out there someday...
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I think Paizo has the right idea with it's Pathfinder line.
WOTC and the powers that be are a publishing company. Their company is in the business of publishing "books" ( in quotes because Magic isn't a book. But it *is* a piece of paper with words on it). Where WOTC has failed in terms of D&D is precisely where the magazines Dragon and Dungeon excel: The sort of publication that *INITIATES* play that in turn generates sales of, books.
WOTC is not interested in publishing "DM only" content. There are a much greater number of players than DMs. Naturally, publishing content has been largely focused on Player Content: Feats, PrC's, Races to play, etc. and very little DM content (adventures).
The Problem as I see it is that by "failing" the DMs, the DMs just "give up". They don't have time to write an adventure. So they turn to Dungeon. But after a year or so of piecing together random adventures into a campaign, that also falls flat. Given the choice of going to work or writing an adventure, many DMs choose the former. But even Dungeon content was hit or miss. While many adventures were "awesome", it still required a re-write to adjust for players levels, or you would have to shelve it until the players caught up. In short, the RESPONSE cost of DMing is becoming more and more costly to bear in relation to the REWARD of the fun. DMs turn to other pursuits.
When DMs leave D&D, the players are left with nothing. And when players don't have a DM, they leave D&D too. For every DM that leaves, there can be 4 other players who leave with it.
Dungeon Magazine has held D&D 3.X up. It remains to be seen how loyal players and DMs are to "100% official" content. As long as Paizo and Green Ronin, Necromancer, and other publishers keep the DMs happy, D&D will continue to succeed as a business venture.
hmm i dont understand why they would cancel it if this magazine was bringing in more money. why would you cancel some thing the brought profit for an online load of crap...i know im not alone when i say that i look forward to every issue and i do a little dance when i get one so if hasbro want to get its greedy hands on more money why cancel the magazine.....and that would AWSOME if paizo bought D&D but i doubt its possible it a huge game with alot of lisences i would imagine
still we can dream
I have also heard through the grapevine that WotC is secretly looking for buyers for their D&D line.IF this were true, then I hope Paizo buys D&D.
Jim scott just has two posts on this forum. I am not ready to believe him. ;-)
Well, slap me with a monkey, and call me wrong!
Apparently "Gleemax" _IS_ part of the new DI.
Here is a quote from "Gamer_Zer0" (Community Liason Staff) on the WotC boards:
Gleemax is a social networking site that will support many things, including the D&D Digital Initiative, as well as Magic the Gathering/Magic Online.
The meat of the D&D content will live someplace accessible from Gleemax, but in it's own area. There will be a lot of interconnectivity between the two, especially with regards to things like personal pages, blogs, etc, including tools that support information on your characters, your current D&D Campaigns, and so on.
For example, think of the forums you're posting on now as an example of something that might come from Gleemax, while the articles and other information you get from our current D&D site would be the area with the D&D specific DI content would live.
Reply With Quote
Charles Stross, inventor of the gith and the slaad, is so sure of the theory that people don't like to read text on a computer screen that he's given away several of his books in online readable form. Meanwhile, the current PDF market also supports the theory that people don't value intangible materials as much as they do real paper products; the best-selling PDFs are under $10, while the best-selling paper books are $30 and up.
In other words, people don't like paying for online text-based content. Even if this digital initative is free, I don't see how they can turn a profit overall. They seem to be chasing the Myspace model where huge numbers and mainstream publicity sets a high value on advertising (Myspace makes millions in ad revenue each month), but roleplaying games are too small a market to create that much of a brand. Myspace clones today only operate in the hope of getting bought out by another company, which Hasbro isn't interested in. I can only assume they're hoping on funnelling Magic: The Gathering players into D&D and vice-versa.
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Jim scott just has two posts on this forum. I am not ready to believe him. ;-)I have also heard through the grapevine that WotC is secretly looking for buyers for their D&D line.IF this were true, then I hope Paizo buys D&D.
So does that mean that since I have over 2,00 more posts than you, that I can merely discount what you say as untrue?
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I have also heard through the grapevine that WotC is secretly looking for buyers for their D&D line.IF this were true, then I hope Paizo buys D&D.
I will actually go a step further. If the D&D line is up for grabs, and Paizo has a realistic chance of obtaining it, I will gladly DONATE money to Paizo to help in that endeavor. It might not be much (I'm just another working stiff) but I would send in what I could in the hopes that someday people who LOVE the game would actually be IN CHARGE of the game.
Paizo folks, this is not a joke. Contact me if there is any possibility of obtaining the D&D line, and I will send you money.