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As promised, I am starting a spin-off thread on half-races in Pathfinder. Post your thoughts on how they should be portrayed or explained or whatever.
I'm sure we will get a lot of "Drop Half-Elves and Half-Orcs" from Pathfinder responses. Let's take for granted that they will be there, because a) we've already been told they will, and b) it's abundantly clear that Pathfinder will include everything that is a core element of the SRD.
Personally, I usually don't like half-races, because they are inconsistant and poorly explained. So let's come up with some explanations that work. Then I can like them.
I am personally not a big fan of 'everything can breed with everything' rules, because man, what a big freaking can of worms that is. I know that there are already a number discussion threads and published materials devoted to this, but this is not what I want in Pathfinder.
So, what do I want?
Well, there are the big three: Half-Elves, Half-Orcs, and Half-Dragons.
I'm going to lump half-orcs and half-elves to gether and simply summarize my thought from another thread:
I'd like to see elves as former denizens of the fairy realm who have become mortal. After warring with the orcs for generations and seeing that the war was corrupting them, the elves started a magically enhanced breeding program to make orcs more like elves and created humans. Thus humans can breed with either.
Half-Dragons: Half-dragons are usually explained away by the fact that dragons can take human form. However, most half-dragons I see are half-chromatic rather than metallic, and AFAIK know only some of the metallic (and none of the chromatic) dragons have the "Alternate Form" ability. I realize that any of them could learn polymorph, but so could many creatures.
Of course, the draconic blood/sorcery connection and the Dragon Disciple class allow the creation of half-dragons, but only from people who supposedly already have draconic ancestry.
To be honest, I've never been satisfied with this whole dragon-blood thing, and I'd be grateful to anyone who can make me like it.
Then we have tieflings and Aasimars and half-celestials and half-fiends. These, I'm pretty happy with as they are. To me, the idea that an essentially magically being from a foreign plane of existence can breed with humans (and other races) and produce offspring is less jarring to me than having seemingly unrelated creatures from the same world being able to do so. Actually, this is part of why I'm so keen on having elves be ex-fey.
Well, that's a good long rambly post; let's hear your thoughts!
Craig Shackleton,
The Rambling Scribe
EDIT: Twice now today, I have typed a long post, selected all and copied, and then posted, to have the message disappear. So then I recreate it, paste the message in and repost, and suddenly both are there.
One of the reasons I think that half-dragons are handled better than half-elves and half-orcs is that they're a template. You can be character who's half-dragon and half-elf without any human genetics, but you can't be half-elf and half-dwarf, for instance. I wish that half-elf and half-orc were templates instead of races.
I am a strong proponent of the idea that "Half" anythings are not races:
That is they don't have cultures - cities etc. They exist (especially as PCs) but are RARE one offs - the results of strange circumstances conspiring - a rape or bizarre brothel encounter that against all odds or as the result of exotic magics results in a pregnancy or birth - or alternately the "Half" is not a true half but rather has taken on certain characteristics as the result of exposure to mystical race based magics OR has undergone some sort of ritual (i.e. looks to boost his strength through the an ancient Orcish Blood-Rite) that results in the individual ememrging as a "Half" whatever.
And individual half whatevers should be required to come up with a backstory that explains how they came to be.
To this end I would - if my proposals meant anything - propose that a few "Half" NPCs be introduced to the setting with suitably exotic backgrounds to demonstrate how rare and exotic such beings should be - and the pros and cons of each.
--- If folks like this idea I would happily volunteer to take on creatig the NPCs and their backstories ---
Following this line of thinking, "Half" bloods could not only have the characteristics as listed but unique characteristics as well.
Thats what I would like to see I think it makes sense - though it does tend to take the game to a darker place - but then I like that too.
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Short and sweet.... In ages past, orcs were once human (an thus can interbreed with human), but cursed when they chose to follow demons instead of the gods. Elves are the mortal descendants of celestials (or some immortal fey, if you prefer) and can interbreed with humans because they're "magic." Meh.
I for one have always hated the half-races in the PHB. I don't have a problem with the idea of half races, but their inclusion in the PHB makes it appear as though they are a very common feature in any given "standard" campaign world. Given the explanation as to why they exist, one would infer they the halvsies are not terribly common.
So, I banned half-orcs and half-elves from my campaigns (being either a home-brew or Greyhawk). This banning was a response to the party composition I had been seeing ever since starting 3E. My group of 5-6 players usually had a party make-up of roughly this: 1 gnome or halfling, 2 half-elves, and 2 or 3 half-orcs. For 4 or 5 campaigns that was what I was getting. And no, nothing clever like "we're siblings, that's why there are two half-elves in this group". In fact my players took perverse delight in keeping all of their characters' backgrounds as unconnected as possible (perhaps they all have the same innate dislike of Dickens as I do).
Well, I got to thinking. My players like those races for a reason. The only reason I really dislike them is their commonness despite the generally exceptional circumstances which would create them. So, I came up with a reason for them to be common.
Half-orcs are, in fact, all orc. They are just another sub-race of orc (and D&D sure loves its subraces). The half-orcs call themselves "high orcs", because their non-physical attributes are a bit higher than regular orcs. Orcs, and most other humanoids notice this as well, but half-orcs still aren't that smart, and a bit weaker than their orc cousins on top of that, hence the name half-orc. They have their own tribes and societies that tend to have more in common with other humanoids, and so are more likely to be found in civilized lands.
Half-elves, however, are all human. High-elves have a consistent birth-rate, Grey, Wild and Wood elves on the other hand, cannot seem to reproduce at a fast enough rate to sustain their societies. So they kidnap human babies. These human babies are raised in elf-lands, and nursed on elf-milk. This gives them a touch of that "elvishness". Many humans do believe that these half-elves are the product of interbreeding, while those on the edge of human lands know of the elf-thefts. I like this explanation because it gives half-elves more of a fairytale feel, and it can account for fairly large numbers of half-elves occurring in many different areas with varied outlooks based on the subrace of elves that took them in.
My apologies for the length of this post. I have put a fair amount of thought into this, as the whole "open swim at the D&D gene pool" just doesn't work for me.
I have a whole other approach for half-dragons, but I have a Sunday walk to take with my wife. Perhaps another time.
I always kind of liked the half races from a purely RP'ing standpoint, admittedly. I just always wondered why orcs and elves were it. Why not half dwarves (Dark Sun anyone?), or Quarterlings?
Yes, I will admit, this post was made mostly so I could say "quarterlings," I'm sorry.
Half-elves, however, are all human. High-elves have a consistent birth-rate, Grey, Wild and Wood elves on the other hand, cannot seem to reproduce at a fast enough rate to sustain their societies. So they kidnap human babies.
That's fantastic - it gives a great reasoning behind Half Elves AND makes the Elves more otharworldly and inhuman at the same time. Two thumbs up from me.
One of the PCs in my current group is a handsome but weedy Human who has deluded himself that he is a Half-Elf. He left his parent's home as a teenager shouting "You aren't my real parents!" at them and wanders the land praising Correlon and looking for his "real" Elf parent. If anyone asks him why he can't see in the dark he claims that Elfsight skips a generation.
Sorry, this doesn't have much to do with the current discussion, I just wanted to tell you guys...
I am in favor of NO Half-Anythings. Particularly NO half-dragons. In our world (Earth) there are no half-cats/half-dogs or other cross-species hybrids, why does D&D need to completely trounce all known science of within species reproduction. And please spare me the "it's a fantasy game, loosen up", nonsense.
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I'm sure we will get a lot of "Drop Half-Elves and Half-Orcs" from Pathfinder responses. Let's take for granted that they will be there, because a) we've already been told they will, and b) it's abundantly clear that Pathfinder will include everything that is a core element of the SRD.
Personally, I usually don't like half-races, because they are inconsistant and poorly explained. So let's come up with some explanations that work. Then I can like them.
I am in favor of NO Half-Anythings. Particularly NO half-dragons. In our world (Earth) there are no half-cats/half-dogs or other cross-species hybrids, why does D&D need to completely trounce all known science of within species reproduction. And please spare me the "it's a fantasy game, loosen up", nonsense.
It's a fantasy game, loosen up.
Nice ideas Carl! I may swipe these for a future campaign.
Hi Craig. I was just passing back through the messageboards when I saw your post. I actually have a few thoughts about The Aundarian Job I'd like to share with you.
Why doesn't Solinthus tell the PCs about the ward over the bank, since he would have needed the password to gain entrance anyway? Was this just an oversight or was there a reason behind it? Also, I have problems with lawful characters funding bank robberies (which this essentially is). Why doesn't Solinthus simply tell House Kundarak about the amulet? Surely, once they knew they were dealing with a dangerous artifact they could transport it to a Temple of the Silver Flame. The rest of the adventure is cool by the way. Especially the magebred bears!
Recently the adventures in DUNGEON seem to force players to break the law, attack non-evil creatures, and side with demons and other villains. I do that often in my own campaign, but it does seem to dominate published adventures these days.
As for half-races in Pathfinder, I think that the team has already got their own ideas for how to incorporate them. They do read the messageboards though, so I'm sure somebody's ideas could get a nod or two.
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Hi Craig. I was just passing back through the messageboards when I saw your post. I actually have a few thoughts about The Aundarian Job I'd like to share with you.
Sure, but I'll transfer that discussion to another thread HERE
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I am in favor of NO Half-Anythings. Particularly NO half-dragons. In our world (Earth) there are no half-cats/half-dogs or other cross-species hybrids, why does D&D need to completely trounce all known science of within species reproduction. And please spare me the "it's a fantasy game, loosen up", nonsense.
No, I'd say... "Thar's magic afoot!" (in a very bad pirate voice). And argue that you shouldn't rely solely of scientific reasoning in settings with creatures that are in no way physically possible (and that's not even including the more magical beasties), or that can have wildly exclusive environments saddled next to each other. When you start taking magical reasoning into account (which you really should), things that may not make any sense, scientifically, start to make perfect sense.
In the end, it's up to you, the DM, and what fits with your setting. I'm just trying to provide another perspective. :)
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I think half-races are the perfect opportunity to explore themes such as predjudice, never quite accepted by either society, culture clash, constanty having to prove oneself, etc that might be experienced by people of mixed heritage in the real-world.
D&D is first-and-foremost a story-telling medium. DMs use non-player characters for themes and plot, and players use their characters as a means of self-expression. Don't dismiss the half-races!
Joining the fray...
I'm in the camp that favors mechanically explaining "half-races" as templates. That way, you can apply them to any other "base race" that meets the criteria (i.e., humanoid, monstrous humanoid, outsider, etc.).
I also think that the "half-races" do NOT need scientific explanation. We're talking about a medieval fantasy game where magic exists. Magic isn't in the real world. Neither are half-species (e.g., dogs and cats do not make dats or cogs). But both magic and half-species do exist in the fantasy world.
Half-Elves - C'mon...elves of unearthly beauty meet humans (or some other race)...fall in love...and whammo, half-elf. Not too hard to believe.
Half-Orcs - Same deal...though minus the love part in some circumstances.
Half-Dragons - Dragon magic can be a powerful thing...and if the first vampire can spring into being through some nefarious magic or curse or whatever...then so too can the first half-dragon appear as a result of some kind of magical infusion of a dragon's might (or blood) with another creature...which is then passed down over the generations.
Half-Celestials and Half-Fiends - Same deal, but we're talking divine magic for the most part.
Half-Fey - There really needs to be a way to liberate or duplicate this template so it's OGL. In my opinion, Pathfinder could really do a number on the fey and all of the trickle-down offspring they could have produced or influenced. Could this help with the Gnome explanation? Maybe. At the very least, the Half-Fey and Feytouched material from the Fiend Folio gives you lots of opportunities to spin off Dryads, Nymphs, Sprites, and all manner of normally "good" fey into potential antagonists by making them half-fey or feytouched descendants (of a potentially lower CR as well).
My two-cents,
--Neil
Well, I imagine they happen in the usually way; you see the bird see he is spotted by the bee; the bee wanting the nectar of the flower uhm has a load of pollen and uhm....
I always like the Greek story of Aphrodites Well with springwaters that when one or more people drink and gaze upon the opposite sex; well, thing like heavy petting take on a whole new meaning. Throw in the Eros figure who has love and hate arrows and a casual to spiteful appetite for humor; and anything can happen.
Of course, in D&D with magic being so pervasive appetites of various kinds would surely follow; you could have mages with charm monster spells just trying out uhm; new things; might have a whole harem or stable of interesting diversions. Knowing peoples nowadays; this sort of thing would be more common than many would believe; then of course their is prostitution whereas I could easily see a human flesh dealer catering for any appetite to some noble son who is tired of the normal and wants a walk on the dark side. This would result in a large number of half somethings over the years; the half somethings would probably be sold to slavery or kept by say a guild for cheap labor unless they showed an aptitude for something. Then you always have warfare, whereas some dieties like Ares relished in the delights of conquest and the rape of a population is the right of the winner. This would also be used to quell the spirit of a population that exists within a new political boundry; heck in parts of the British Empire the English passed a law that a noble could have first crack at any newly married female and many lords had consuled their sons to "have their way with the peasant, then have done with 'er".
Any half breeds would probably feel some social tension and would be likely to be looking for a niche to fit in; this could be anything to bounty hunters to starting a viable half breed city; any can live their but only half breeds can be citizens; on the other end; you could have assassin cults how use the advantages of half type breeding to twist the minds of their progeny to strike back at the population that has disowned them by murder.
Their is also just plain wealth to consider; any person of any race that is wealthy enough and willing to spend it can get some gold digger to marry or at least roll in the hay. Some people will do anything to be wealthy and if they also have the power to silence by some means those who snigger; well, match made in hell.
Dont forget that some races are just plain randy or raunchy; many writing say that orcs just are not too particular, this probably goes for many short lived races; then you have the fey; who are just looking for fun; many of them may not have males or females and may depend on the seeds of other races to reproduce; perhaps some dont breed true; this sort of thing would be easier than, as the myths say, stealing babies.
Magic and Chaos can make any combination possible and the drive to procreate is right up their with survival. Quarter breeds are handled pretty well in the UA as well as half breeds, the big stinger of this is that nobody wants to give up levels for such things as they believe it weakens their characters due to the 20 level limit.
Another thing to consider is when do these aberant racial traits become active; I usually have some chance of it at birth; then largest chance at puberty; then small chance every year afterwards until middle age. With this a person could add a template at any time and having most of this sort of thing happen in the teen years is a good reason for the given individual to want to leave town and go adventuring.
Would be nice to see the same race done as a template; bloodline, and race so people would have options. Some type of racial social interaction modifier while interacting with a given race would be nice; some races are benevolent; some neutral; some hate you on sight.
I think that the problem most gms have with half races are the bonuses; gm's tend to get leary when someone wants to play a race that has an advantage over another race; I think it is silly and just shows the inflexability of the gm and his ability to adapt a campaign setting to fit the needs of a character party; doesn't sound like a fun gm to me. hehe I alway laugh when someone pulls out the balance stick for races as if the classes or anything else in this game were balanced. It is a fact even in our own world; some people have advantages over others be it any stat or skill or just plain numbers. So when making half races; the race should be cool to roleplay not just all about power.
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I am in favor of NO Half-Anythings. Particularly NO half-dragons. In our world (Earth) there are no half-cats/half-dogs or other cross-species hybrids, why does D&D need to completely trounce all known science of within species reproduction. And please spare me the "it's a fantasy game, loosen up", nonsense.
While we here at Paizo are against the idea of half-breed proliferation, as pointed out in the OP we will indeed have the halfs already present in the game. So no worries on that point. But half-breeds do exist in the real world. Unlike in D&D, though, many (most?) real-life hybrids are sterile.
Half-Fey - There really needs to be a way to liberate or duplicate this template so it's OGL.
The Book of Templates from Goodman Games has a few different takes on that.
Half-Fey - There really needs to be a way to liberate or duplicate this template so it's OGL.The Book of Templates from Goodman Games has a few different takes on that.
What specifically did they cover in the way of Fey templates? And...oh...thanks for the heads-up.
--Neil
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Half-Fey - There really needs to be a way to liberate or duplicate this template so it's OGL.The Book of Templates from Goodman Games has a few different takes on that.What specifically did they cover in the way of Fey templates? And...oh...thanks for the heads-up.
--Neil
You could do like a power/mutation chart a la Gamma World.
Go in a totally different direction mechanically.
What specifically did they cover in the way of Fey templates? And...oh...thanks for the heads-up.
My pleasure.
They have the Fey-Kissed template, which is for non-fey who have had extensive contact (eg kissing or even being raised by fey), the Nymph Child template, which is for the offspring of a nymph and a non-nymph, and the 3.0 version had a Half-Sidhe template (which seems to be missing from the 3.5 version of the book). They also have the "half-template", which is a template to make any creature into a half-creature template.
You could do like a power/mutation chart a la Gamma World.
Go in a totally different direction mechanically.
The SRD already has mutations covered in the Modern section.