Okay, it's been said elsewhere (most likely in the Rant section, probably by myself and several other worthy posters), but I think this merits it's own thread.
I've been keeping abreast of recent and upcoming D&D books and minis from WOTC and I'll be damned if everything in there doesn't contain some sort of dragon or dragon-based creature. Dracotaurs, (Insert Color)-Spawn (Insert noun), Dragon Magic, Dragons of Faerun, Dragons of Eberron, Gargantuan Dragons, etc. Eyes of the Lich Queen- dragon centered. Cormyr: Tearing of the Weave- a dragon is a main antagonist.
WHY DOES EVERYTHING HAVE TO F&*!ING BREED WITH A F%$!ING DRAGON OR BE F!$+ING RUN BY A F*+~ING DRAGON?!! How are all these crazy offshoot races different in any way from just a half-dragon version of the original creature? There are now FIVE official monster manuals, the Fiend Folio and any number of OGL monsters and creatures, things from previous editions, etc. I realize they're in the game's name and all, but why are the people that are producing the official line of products so hung up on them when there are more interesting monsters out there?
I'll say it: they're cliche. They can change shape, they know magic, they're older, smarter and more powerful than any humanoid race: they're somehow getting more baggage than elves. It's just lame. And apparently, they'll bang anything that moves. I'm sure it's a marketing thing and I think it's ridiculous.
OMG!! The mysterious guy we were working for is actually A DRAGON?!! Shut my mouth! Who could possibly see that coming?!
I can finally (FINALLY!) run a character that is not only descended from dragons, turns into a dragon, and speaks the language of dragons, but I can also work for a dragon against another dragon while banging a dragon and producing little freak dragons. I wish someone would come up with another great $30 book about what happens when dragons of different colors bang each other. It's a question that's burning in my mind and is the subject of some awesome fanfiction I'm writing.
I like Duergar. I like Umber Hulks. I like Yuan-ti. I like the Catoblepas. I like Chuul. I like Ghouls. I like Zombies. I like things that don't have scales, wings and/or a breath weapon. Call me strange.
banging a dragon, hehe.
I get your point though; every freakin book in this game refrences a dragon at some point. I'll bet anyone 10 bucks. It's getting old!!
banging a dragon, hehe.
I get your point though; every freakin book in this game refrences a dragon at some point. I'll bet anyone 10 bucks. It's getting old!!
Not counting the word 'dragon' as in the 'dungeon&dragons', you're going to lose those 10 bucks.
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Well, Strange, I don't mind the dragons stuff. It's no worse than flavor of the minute demons and devils, and it's more fun to play and play against.
On the other hand, I hate Mr. Potato Head aberrations. They're not interesting, they're not innovative, and they make no sense. (No, not even in the funhouse world of default D&D.)
(All IMO, of course.)
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mmmm... never noticed before you said it. But I like dragons and can't wait to see more of them.
However, I am sick and tired of demons. Demons have been in almost every issue of Dragon and/or Dungeon for about two years or so now. Every Monster Manual, Fiend Folio 1 & 2!, every monster OGL book. Come on, enough with the demons.
I can go to the players in my game and say "Hey I have a great new adventure with a cool bad guy boss." And they say "Let me guess. Another demon, like the game before and the one before that and that other one with the demon. Doesn't anyone publish games with kobolds?"
As far as I recall (grain of salt on this one) haven't all the adventure paths been about demons? One, just one about a dragon would be a nice change. In fact, almost all adventures that have a dragon appear turns out the dragon is subserviant to a demon or some god or demon god.
I really think instead of selling the big dragon minis D&D ought to be selling demon minis and rename the game Demons and Dungeons.
But yes now that you mention it, there's a lot about dragons too, but not many adventures.
Eh, whatever seems cool as a monster or as a villain is good in my book. I've never yet run a campaign where I ran out of monsters, but at the same time, I've seen plenty of monsters that have jumped out at me as something that would make for a memorable encounter. Do all of the monsters that you never use automatically exist in the campaign world if you never use them? Its almost like a "tree falling in the forest" question.
I like dragons. Really, I do. They were my original fave D&D thing as a kid, I think, probably stemming from the dinosaur thing I went through back then. They were like big flying dinosaurs who breathed fire, I guess.
But... yeah... so much baggage, so little time. Too much "awesome" layered onto one creature. Somehow, I remember them being more manageable before 3rd Ed. 1st Ed, at least.
And I admit I'm kind of jealous that Eastern dragons don't get this kind of attention, 'cause they're my favorite.
I can go to the players in my game and say "Hey I have a great new adventure with a cool bad guy boss." And they say "Let me guess. Another demon, like the game before and the one before that and that other one with the demon. Doesn't anyone publish games with kobolds?"As far as I recall (grain of salt on this one) haven't all the adventure paths been about demons?
Sorry about being a nitpicker, but Age of Worms was about a plague of undead and an ancient necromancer turned into a demi-god. So... that's 1/3rd of the adventure paths. But... point taken, nonetheless.
Maybe it's because it's easy to justify a demon being... anything. A mutant orangutan. A living pile of sludge. A slime-covered living skeleton. The infinite Abyss. If it's awful (but not lawful*), it can happen there. It's a lot of why I'm so fond of demons, but... ...perhaps that could be considered the weakness of demons as villains, plot-wise. It's too easy, too convenient, a crutch. You don't have to work hard to come up with a D&D plot involving demons.
* Sorry. But not really.
I see what you mean by how many dragons there are, and it eventually gets old...though the name of the game has it in it-ironic huh? Still there are limits aye? Anyway, I really don't care what kind of enemy the BBEG is...the campaign I have has to do with only Yuan-ti, the BBEG of my friends campaign at one point was a giant kobold who stumbled upon an evil shard of power, then just recently we fought a huge dragon that was really tough but we had fun staying up until 7:00 in the morning to kill it. So, although they are overused, I still like them. I really don't have a problem with any BBEG, as long as it isn't some psuedo-natural baby...ugh! Gold dragons should be the new red if you ask me...
Sir Smashes Alot
Well, Strange, I don't mind the dragons stuff. It's no worse than flavor of the minute demons and devils, and it's more fun to play and play against.
On the other hand, I hate Mr. Potato Head aberrations. They're not interesting, they're not innovative, and they make no sense. (No, not even in the funhouse world of default D&D.)
(All IMO, of course.)
If anything is overused it's the demon and the drow. Demons are in every adventure/ magazine while drow are in every book (Forgotten Realms). Im proud though for not overusing dragons though, even if I love them so much. All I did was a few end bosses, story arc about Tiamat and one key NPC's.
If anything is overused it's the demon and the drow. Demons are in every adventure/ magazine while drow are in every book (Forgotten Realms).
I love how stereotypes survive in the face of actual facts. Mysteries of the Moonsea, Power of Faerun, Dragons of Faerun, and Cormyr, The Tearing of the Weave are all pretty much devoid of drow at all. I think that Unappraochable East might mention them to the extent that there is a drow city under Thay, and Serpent Kingdoms is pretty much drow free as well. I'd argue that a lot of other books that mention drow don't really revolve around them. Its hard for Lost Empires of Faerun to mention the history of the elven nations without mentioning the descent.
How about a bad guy who's a 24th level expert and just has lots of cash and hired goons? F~+%, that's it, I'm writin it now...
If anything is overused it's the demon and the drow. Demons are in every adventure/ magazine while drow are in every book (Forgotten Realms).
I love how stereotypes survive in the face of actual facts. Mysteries of the Moonsea, Power of Faerun, Dragons of Faerun, and Cormyr, The Tearing of the Weave are all pretty much devoid of drow at all. I think that Unappraochable East might mention them to the extent that there is a drow city under Thay, and Serpent Kingdoms is pretty much drow free as well. I'd argue that a lot of other books that mention drow don't really revolve around them. Its hard for Lost Empires of Faerun to mention the history of the elven nations without mentioning the descent.
When I said book, I meant the fiction such as Salvatore, Cunningham, Kemp, Richard Byrs (spl?), Dennings, and other FR authors.
I love dragons. Dragons are freaking awesome; they are the most powerful, majestic creatures in the game. They just have "bad ass" written all over them and ingrained in every fiber of their being. They are awesomeness defined.
That's why I don't use them much.
Oh, I started out eager to put a dragon in every adventure. But the wyrmlings started going down easy, and even juveniles, and I kept having swamps with black dragons because they were the first dragon that could be plugged in at an appropriate CR, and then the players started rolling their eyes and getting bored with them.
That's when I stopped and toned down.
I like dragons in names: The Dragon Mountains, Dragonfire Ale, Dragontongue flowers, etc. The main antagponist in the game I'm currently running are an army of hobgoblins known as the Blood Dragon. I think it's great to invoke the name for the awe and power it brings.
I also like dragons as mysterious beings at the edge of the world, where the maps run out and the ruined cities and castles are the only works of man- there are dragons guarding the secrets of the world.
And I like dragons as massive flying terrors, whose very presence sends fear and awe into the countryside while far and wide, peasants and heroes pray to the gods to survive.
I even like dragons as schemers, weaving plots and plans that take centuries to come to fruition.
But when overused, they just become common. That's the worst thing that can happen to dragons. That's why I don't like seeing dragons here there and everywhere. They should be reserved for when it's really appropriate and necessary, and cool. Maybe two or three in a game, and that would be a dragon-heavy campaign!
Now, those feelings apply mainly to True Dragons. I don't really like bizarre dragon knock-offs (Blue Spawn Bug Zapper? Red Spawn Charbroiler? Please, give me a break), but things like wyverns and dracotaurs and such are fun and can be used much more abundantly to put "dragons" in the game without ruining their mystique (because everyone knows that's not a REAL dragon), and it gives rangers and other dragon-specialized PCs a chance to use their abilities in a consistent manner.
Additionally, I don't mind Kings of the Rift, where there were several dozen dragons in one adventure. It was the whole dragonflight of Dragotha, a truly epic event that bards will sing of for years (provided the party lives to tell the tale), an almost mythical occurance. So long as it only ever happens once, it's freaking awesome.
Back to the ranting, however. I hate the dragon feats in the Draconomicon, and the magic items. The thought of dragons with metallic inserts over their teeth to give a bigger critical, or speed boosters on their wings, just adulterates dragons. And the metabreath feats and many of the others just seemed chinsey and corney, as well as being extremely overpowered. I loved the fluff in the book, but the crunch was sickening.
And what the hell is wrong with human BBEG? Are there no level 20 warlords running around threatening the world? Where are the dark knights and lords that need to be defeated? Why does every BBEG have to be a god or dragon or demon or whatever? It doesn't even have to be a wizard! It could just be a 20th level evil fighter at the head of a massive army. Too bland? Not anymore- that amazingly basic concept would actually be a breath of fresh air at the moment, with all the monstrous foes appearing.
Now, about demons. I love demons as much as dragons, perhaps even moreso. Fiends are just freaking awesome. And it makes sense for them to pop up almost anywhere and everywhere. Whether they are preparing to march to war with fire and blood on their minds, or subtly corrupting a kingdom from behind the scenes, or even just trying to temp the old farmer down the lane into some greed-inspired act, fiends are everywhere trying to sow evil in the world. They're freaking sweet.
And I think I just realized that I would almost never get sick of seeing demons in adventures; churn out as many as you like, and I'll be interested in all and hungry for more. Which is probably the way a lot of people feel about dragons, so I suppose I just found some empathy for those who want to see more dragons everywhere doing everything. Not much though. :)
And finally- Mr. Potatohead Aberrations? Color me confused- can you elucidate some?
This needs a poll. "Most overused monster in D&D as of May, 2007"
Yeah, dragons would certainly get my vote right now. The "ferrous dragons" article was pretty lame.
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And finally- Mr. Potatohead Aberrations? Color me confused- can you elucidate some?
Aberration creation, a six step process:
Start with a body.
Add a mouth or three, say on top of the head or in the armpit, or on the end of a tentacle.
Add some number of eyes, ears, noses, and other sense organs somewhere.
Add some number of limbs (tentacles are always nice) in random places.
Pick some random powers that needn't make sense.
Build a statblock.
The result is eerily reminiscent of what my son built with his Mr. Potato Head when he was four. (Though his set seemed curiously short of tentacles. Maybe next time we'll buy a Mr. Cthulhu Head instead.)
I think they can work well with a certain mystique and all and I wouldn't dream of abolishing them entirely. But I'm really sick of being beaten over the head with dragon-flavored everything. This whole "Year of the Dragon" marketing thing is just beating a dead horse. I need to call an exterminator for all these crazy flying lizards.
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I absolutely love Dragons and Drow. Of course, i hate that they have been so overly used. I, myself, very rarely put them into my campaigns and when i do, the high level (above 12th level min) party knows something bad it up. I'm seeing MindFlayers used more frequently, as of late. I just hope they dont go they same way as Dragons & Drow.
Thoth-Amon
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I absolutely love Dragons and Drow. Of course, i hate that they have been so overly used. I, myself, very rarely put them into my campaigns and when i do, the high level (above 12th level min) party knows something bad it up. I'm seeing MindFlayers used more frequently, as of late. I just hope they dont go they same way as Dragons & Drow.
Thoth-Amon
OO! OO! Half-dragon Drow! New adventure path idea!
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The result is eerily reminiscent of what my son built with his Mr. Potato Head when he was four. (Though his set seemed curiously short of tentacles. Maybe next time we'll buy a Mr. Cthulhu Head instead.)
R O F L. Man I would like to see how kid turned out that had a Mr. Cthulhu Head to play with during his formative years.
Back to the ranting, however. I hate the dragon feats in the Draconomicon, and the magic items. The thought of dragons with metallic inserts over their teeth to give a bigger critical, or speed boosters on their wings, just adulterates dragons. And the metabreath feats and many of the others just seemed chinsey and corney, as well as being extremely overpowered. I loved the fluff in the book, but the crunch was sickening.
I'm not a huge fan of dragon magic spells though I figure some would probably be out there. I hate dragon magic items - wtf? Who the heck is working the forge to make these things? More or less I find the idea of dragons using anything more then some of the magic they might find in their hoard a little improbable. Even then I would not use cloaks or anything but would probably have them make use of potions, scrolls they happened to have and possibly even wands though dragons claws never seemed well made for wand use to me.
I like some of the feats in the Draconomicon a lot and and don't much care for others. Mainly I just stay away from overly complex monster feats. No one wants to have this unwieldy mechanic for the bad guys - its not even good when its for the good guys but watching the DM try and figure out how to use a feat retchs. That said I have no real problem in general with monster feats and thats what a lot of these feats were essentially. You can use rend on a dragon - or any other monster at your option really. Considering the massive number of feats the players have access to anything that helps balance that out is a good thing in my opinion.
Now I really did not care for the fluff in the Draconomicon. I thought it was far inferior to the same sort of material found in 2nd edition. As a rule I think that 3rd edition dragons are badly balanced compared to their 2nd edition counter parts. Generally their too strong which just means that a lot of the more powerful versions are essentially unusable except at the highest levels of play and epic. Its something of a waste that so many dragons have CRs in the high teens and through the 20's. If one needs epic dragons they should make a feat for the or have 'epic' dragons as a monster.
I agree it's a little disappointing that so many dragons at the really cool age categories are out of "reach," due to overly high CRs. At the same time, it kind of "works," because it's this deifically powerful monster of iconography and legend, and it really lives up to its reputation. It's the top of the scale (no pun intended), the end of the spectrum. I like that.
Another thing I don't like from the Draconomicon is dragon PrCs. WTF? And when I flipped through Dragons of Faerun (not that I thought that was an exceptionally useful book concept), I was disgusted to find that most of the dragons had levels in this or that.
No, thanks. I don't like seeing dragons with levels in anything. It's a f~!*ing dragon, it's already the closest thing to God on the Material Plane, and it doesn't need class levels! Furthermore, if dragons start taking class levels, why would they stop? As soon as a dragon becomes smart enough to realize that this is the way to go (which it unquestionably is), they would just keep taking class levels, and due to their power and long lifespans, would all be around 25+ level, in addition to being dragons!
NO! Just no. Bad Draconomicon! Bad WotC! No cash for you on this product!
I replied to this earlier, but the site at my post! Grr...
While I love the Draconomicon and dragons in general(really looking forward to picking up the next issue of Dragon at my FLGS tomorrow), I agree that dragons with levels in classes(especially prestige classes) is a bit silly. While I think a raging dragon would be a frightening thing, their natural abilities either emulate or eclipse what most PCs are capable of easily. As for dragons popping up everywhere, I really have no problem with that. As stated in one of the first posts I made when I came here(and if memory serves, it was with Saern. Hi, Saern!), dragons are not necessarily going to keep their numbers down due to their might. If anything they are going to breed more and more, and with more and more races if they can change shape. They are very much the Captain Kirks of the D&D world...
hehe this thread makes me chuckle; I guess coming up with new monsters is hard, personally, I would like to see more Fey and Fey politics with examples of a summer and winter leprachaun for instance and perhaps outlook of the differing courts and such; I have done some work on this myself, but considering the whole realm of faerie is not very developed; this really surprizes me as a big missed oppurtunity. Dragon breeds and whatnot; just take em or leave em; is all a matter of choice.