I noticed that in the latest issue there was some fiction entitled "The Confession." I read the first paragraph and was surprised to see the word "s~&@" printed right there before my eyes. I have been a subscriber for almost 20 years going back to when I was 10 and never have I seen that word printed. I went back and search the Dragon archive of the first 250 issue and did not receive a single document returned. I am very concerned as it seems that this type of language isn't fit for a magazine of this nature. I know that Dragon is going out of print, but can we expect the same type of what I will term "mature" content in present Pathfinder and Game Mastery products?
We can say all we want about WoTC, their poor product value, and the cancelation of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, but they don't print offencive words in their products and if the material therein may offend (like in The Book of Vile Darkness") they apply a warning label. Do you - the staff at Paizo - have standards for language in your products or can we expect to see female npc's referred to as "Nappy Ho's" in an upcoming product?
BTW - I may rethink my support of your upcoming products if their not fit for consumption for teens and children above the age of 11.
Well, I, for one, was not at all offended by the inclusion of an expletive. While I certainly hope that Paizo's audience includes teenagers and the occasional prepubescent, the reality is that D&D has evolved to be a game played primarily by adults (including young adults, who certainly are aware of and use such language all the time). It's decorum should reflect that, and the occasional use of an expletive doesn't hurt anyone. The language of the story you cite is meant to be powerful.
Do you remove yourself from the world in an attempt to avoid the reality of changing social standards? Because as mass media changes to reflect the evolving practice, expletives have become more and more prevalent. Though I don't own a television, I know enough that "adult language," violence, and partial nudity are now fairly commonplace. And have you ever read the New Yorker, for instance, a magazine for a general audience. Cuss words all the time.
Now, I'm hardly a potty mouth myself. And I too am angered by gratuitious use of expletives or by hurtful language. But to ignore the reality of how customs and language change doesn't seem to protect anyone's interest.
I'll retire from my high horse now.
I'm all for cussing too. The more gratuitous the better. Just one guy's opinion. One guy who loves cussin'.
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... Do you - the staff at Paizo - have standards for language in your products or can we expect to see female npc's referred to as "Nappy Ho's" in an upcoming product? ...
Milton and Jefferson are rolling in their graves right now.
One thing does not lead to another---Imus does not work at Paizo, and I fail to see the logical connection between the use of a common expletive and felonious and racially prejudiced comments. It is rationally irresponsible and inflammatory to make such poor comparisons, and insulting to intimate that such a comparison is legitimate.
If you're offended by the use of profanity, that's one thing, but implying that racism stems from the use of the word 's#$#' simply makes no sense. If I'm wrong, please defend your comments.
I think Wizards of the Coast should pull Paizo's license to produce Dragon magazine over this.
oh wait - too late. ;)
It threw me a little too. But I'm a big boy.
I'd prefer not to see such a word -- and all its modern connotations used in that context -- but if you read the whole story, such a crude description is in keeping with the character's POV. My concern is not so much one of censoring material for younger readers -- but utilizing words that seem appropriate to sword-and-sorcery fiction. I thought it was jarring in that respect. (which was probably the author's intent.) There are plenty of substitutes for spit that are more appropriate, however.
That said, pulp fiction has always dabbled in the unseemly, the grotesque, the baudy or the erotic, and fantasy ficiton is the heir to that tradition. I expect it.
I thought the story as a whole was very good, however, and would recommend it to any adult readers.
Both profanity and racism are offensive. Both incorporate slang terms to label actions, people, places, and things. Ho's refers to prostitutes and in the context in which Imus used it, to black women thereby associating black women with prostitutes. S&!$ refers to deficating. Many times people, places, or things are referred to as s!@!. Its offensive. Its a word that should not be used because it is used to offend people albeit more general then Ho's, but still offensive.
Andrew, your justification for using offensive language must be that it is OK to use offensive language to label any individual, but if the context is a group of individuals and is obviously so, it is offensive.
I'm going to run out and teach that to my kids. After all they should know how to swear so that they can equally offend everybody.
The truth is that we should do our best to not to offend anyone. I believe one way to offend the fewest people is to use offensive language as littls as possible. It very simple. I'm sorry but if a word like s!%* came our of my child's mouth, they would be punished for a long time.
Now I admit I have used the word thousands of times in my life, but I do my best to limit the audience to mature adults. The Paizo staff made no attempt to censor the offensive language. They simply printed it in a magazine which up until now I thought could be read by a wide audience. Maybe its a good thing WoTC pulled the plug. After this and the Poryphory House printing I question whether the Paizo staff could produce a decent magazine that a parent wouldn't have to worry about letting their kids read.
It always seems strange to me when people are worried about "obscene" material in D&D.
What's the sense in worrying about language and nudity in a game that's based on killing people and taking their stuff? I'd be more worried about exposing my kids to graphic violence than I'd be worried about my kids reading the word s##~ or possibly seeing the outline of a nipple.
What's gonna give more kids nightmares? The idea of being eviscerated by a Balor, or the word "s~@#"?
Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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The magazine has always had a more liberal policy involving curse words when fiction is involved. A few years back a George R.R. Martin excerpt dropped the F-bomb, with the approval of Wizards of the Coast and the magazine's editorial staff at the time, because it worked for the story.
Such was the case here, so the word went in and stayed in.
Honestly, equating a grade-school swear word with overt racism is pretty offensive to me, so now that we're all on the same page being offended, perhaps there is something else we can talk about?
--Erik
PS: I suspect we'll have a similar policy for our own stuff after the magazines go away, but since we don't plan to include any fiction in Pathfinder or the GameMastery Modules, it's not something anyone should be concerned about.
If you think that most kids havn't heard that or worse needs to go out to a public playground.
I've gotten in trouble at work for telling a custom to watch his language (he was yelling at someone on his cell phone) and I WORK at a kids store.
I agree that much of the audience for D&D is teens and a few preteens. I don't think one word is going to make much of difference, but I just as soon it wasn't encouraged.
But to me, there are things in D&D that are more offensive. One word is nothing, in my mind, compared to the portrayal of women, which are often scantily clad. I remember one time seeing a woman on the cover of Dungeon barely wearing anything and then reading that this NPC was supposedly wearing full plate armor. My friends made a joke about it, calling it her "full plate bikini", but really, wouldn't this turn most women off? I personally find this worse for the "impressionable youth" than one little "s$*#"!
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Please, won't someone think of the children!
I remember reading Stephen King novels in middle school and getting all excited by the profanity. And who can forget the madlibs books where every third word is a synonym for crap.
Mind you, this was well before I hit 18 and became entirely enlightened as an adult. I don't know about the rest of you but I vividily remember the moment when all of a sudden the curtain of youth was lifted and I became mature enough to swear, buy lotto tickets, smoke, and buy pornography.
The take away point for those playing along at home:
S%~+ happens
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EEEEP!
Oh no!!
A four letter word!!!
I am sorry, but I can't bring myself to be up in arms about words that have been vernacular for CENTURIES.
I don't encourage my children (ages 2 & 4) to swear, and I try to avoid the language around them. When they hear it, I teach them it is okay for other people, but not "a good-boy thing to do".
Similarly I teach them that stabbing people with swords, shooting them with arrows, beating them with clubs, or punching them are also not good things to do.
I teach them that lying and cheating are also on the bad-boy list.
I teach them what i choose to teach them about god, heaven, and religion in general.
I teach them the difference between pretend (magic) and reality (science)
I intend to teach them about sexuality when I think they are ready, and keep them away from it until then.
So if want to get a ladder to get up the high horse, how 'bout you write a D&D themed short story without swearing, violence, disception, sexuality, racism, agism, or any other -ism and see how good a story that doesn't offend anybody can be.
Oh, and for the record, let me check again...
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Hey look, nothing in there about freedom from being offended, or from sharing the world with the offensive.
As the parent of a small child I have a couple of responses here. I'm not especially concerned about the use of one mild swear word. I'm afraid I must admit that my young son has in fact heard me use this word (an incident involving a glass of kool-aid and the remote control) because no matter how well you try to censor yourself, you're gonna screw up. We then had the whole explanation where I had to apologize to him for my language and explain that certain things weren't appropriate to say. If you haven't had that conversation with your kid by the age of 11 something's wrong. They will have learned such words from tv and other kids by then.
While I think that the story is a little mature in its themes for such a young reader, I might allow it with prior adult screening and the opportunity to discuss it with the child. It's the same as letting your child watch television. You are the parent. It's your responsibility to make sure that that your values are upheld in what you do and don't allow your kids to be exposed to.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.Hey look, nothing in there about freedom from being offended, or from sharing the world with the offensive.
This has nothing to do with the First Amendment. The First Amendment is a prohibition on government action, not private action. Paizo is not the government. Neither is the offended reader.
Also, though there is nothing in there about freedom from being offended, the government can and does punish certain types of speech, such as threats, hate speech, and child pornogrpahy. The plain text of the First Amendment is an entirely inadequate guide to understanding its actual effect.
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Contributor
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As an experienced fiction editor as well as the fiction editor of Dragon, I present here the reasoning behind the use of "strong" language in "Confession."
I noticed that in the latest issue there was some fiction entitled "The Confession." I read the first paragraph and was surprised to see the word "s!&%" printed right there before my eyes. I have been a subscriber for almost 20 years going back to when I was 10 and never have I seen that word printed.
"Confession" is hardly the first piece of fiction in Dragon to use such language. It does, however, remain within the boundaries of PG-13, which we use as a guide for the magazines and all our products.
I know that Dragon is going out of print, but can we expect the same type of what I will term "mature" content in present Pathfinder and Game Mastery products?
No. You're failing to differentiate between a piece of fiction and a normal article.
Words like s*~& and piss are part of the English language, and that they have negative connotations stems not from anything inherent in their spelling or definitions, but rather in how the English-speaking world has portrayed them in the past thousand-or-so years. Look at the construction of the story again. Note that when these words are used it is because the narrator is speaking to us from a first-person perspective, as if he were telling us his story orally. His choice of words reflects his personality as a character, just as surely as if he wrote using no contractions. The areas of the story told from the third-person point of view do not use these kinds of words.
Likewise, there is absolutely no place whatsoever for the use of words such as f+*%, piss, s@*!, or a!@~%+& in any article that appears in Dragon or any adventure or supplementary rules section in Pathfinder or other GameMastery Products.
That we have any kind of reaction at all toward the inclusion of s+*& and piss in the story tells me that the words performed their duty admirably. If we included them in every single issue, eventually no one would notice and no one would care (because those who do care would stop reading). Because we've used them only once ever in 356 issues makes their appearance powerful and memorable. I chose to leave in those words precisely because I knew they would have more impact. I had Paul send me a toned-down version of the story but it lacked energy and vibrancy, so I went with the more risque version. That was why we left them in.
We can say all we want about WoTC, their poor product value, and the cancelation of Dragon and Dungeon magazines, but they don't print offencive words in their products and if the material therein may offend (like in The Book of Vile Darkness") they apply a warning label.
As with everything we print in Dragon, Wizards of the Coast saw and approved the story.
Do you - the staff at Paizo - have standards for language in your products or can we expect to see female npc's referred to as "Nappy Ho's" in an upcoming product?
This, to me, is a bizarre and distressing leap of logic. There is a huge, massive difference between using a word with a negative connotation that does not directly insult someone and a word or phrase designed to insult and offend.
BTW - I may rethink my support of your upcoming products if their not fit for consumption for teens and children above the age of 11.
We aim to make all our products roughly PG-13, so they should be perfectly appropriate for 13-year-olds. Like with movies and movie ratings, though, it's ultimately your decision what you let your kids see. We're dedicated to not pushing into R territory, but if we do we'll make sure to put up a warning. :)
...
For those of you who don't want to click the link, filmratings.com defines PG-13 thusly:
"Parents Strongly Cautioned. Some material may be inappropriate for children under 13. This signifies that the film rated may be inappropriate for pre-teens. Parents should be especially careful about letting their younger children attend. Rough or persistent violence is absent; sexually-oriented nudity is generally absent; some scenes of drug use may be seen; one use of the harsher sexually derived words may be heard."
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Eric, I'm sad to see that you believe that this language is accpetable in a periodical that you guided for so long. I have always admired your work, but I question yur judgement. I have to assume from your comments that the gaming community should indulge in vulgar language where it makes a point and push for more nipples and busty babes. And everyone wonders why there are so few female gamers. I've gotten the answer I was looking for which was to determine what standards Paizo will use for the language in futures print products. I look forward to seeing goblins referred to in an encounter narrative by a dwarf as "Those s!!& covered goblins come out of the dumps and steel anything they can from Sandpoint."
Why stop there? Eventually, Dragon will just be hardcore snuff porno, which will erode society's morales to the point where we fling feces at each other and rape children rather than saying hello and being friendly. Yes sir, here it is, the final downfall and corruption of Western Society - Dragon printed the word s&$%. All is lost!!! Nooooo!!!!
One word: Prozac.
Tim,
Are you even reading the posts? You seem to have an amazing ability to take things out of context and take a tiny grain of sand and pretend there is a sandstorm. Wow.
If you are just looking to pull one word or phrase out a more complete explanation (such as you did with Erik for example) and you just want to take things to a ridiculous level, there are probably forums better suited for it. Granted, most of the people on them are the teenagers you are working so hard to protect, but hey to each their own.
If you read what's being written/meant here, it is pretty clear that there is no 'pattern of immorality' or at the very least if there is it would require all of us to investigate our personal double standards as mentioned above where violence and killing are involved.
I am pretty conservative in many ways and have a young child. I monitor (with the aid of my wife) the input he receives. We don't do a perfect job, but if one bad word were the worst he has seen, I would be thankful.
I always have a hard time accepting people that get in an uproar over "foul" language.
I am more of the bent that the intention is more important than the actual language used.
If I had a child, I wouldn't allow him/her to use any profanity. Not because I feel they shouldn't, but because society feels they shouldn't.
I would rather teach my, and other peoples as well, children how to be careful about the language used in anger rather than certain words are considered inappropriate at all times.
But to each their own.
And to the matter of the Dragon issue (which I haven't read, sorry) I say feel free to use whatever words are appropriate.
If the publishers, Paizo in this case, choose to avoid "adult" language unless clearly appropriate - I salute their choice. It shows a level of maturity that is sorely lacking in most publications. It shows a decided effort to be "clean," without being childish and using the word doodie when s&$* is more appropriate.
And, in parting, remember: Words only have the power that we give them. If you consider a word offensive, it will continue to be offensive for as long as you find it offensive. However, a&@~!!!s will always find a way to use non offensive words to hurt another. Intent is more important that actual language.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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The goblins can't defend themselves, but happily, I am not a goblin.
One, a single relatively tame swear word does not suggest that the magazine will include nipples and boobs. The two are not related to one another, and your hyperbole is tiresome.
Two, again with the nappy-headed hos. Your equation of a simple swear word with racism is highly offensive and doesn't suggest that you have a very strong point. I'm not going to argue about racism in the magazine, because the magazine does not include racism.
Please cut the head off this pathetic analogy.
Three, I did answer your question about Pathfinder. The only time in which a swear word can appear in Dragon is in the context of short fiction. Pathfinder will not include any fiction to speak of, so it will not include s$!$-covered goblins or, for that matter, s&!~-covered anything.
I appreciate that you thought the inclusion of that word in the short story was offensive. I can see why you would think so, and I am sorry to have caused you any level of distress. That said, I think the word works for the story, and a lot of other people agree.
Given that some readers were offended by the phrase "Warriors Kick Ass!" on a Dragon cover a few years ago, it's pretty clear to me that some folks are easily offended, and that we're going to offend these folks from time to time.
Sorry to have offended you, but your comparisons to racism and sexism are tired and sorely misplaced.
--Erik
Erik, thanks for your clearing up where Paizo stands on this issue and humoring my attempt at a debate regarding how people feal about offensive language in your magazine.
I guess people in general are no longer sensitive to swearing or at least the it is an accurate description of the gaming community on this board. Some have said that using the word s&~# has power. In the context of the short story it was used to push a characters point of view. It meant something. Maybe it meant the character's narrative indicates that he is aggrivated, upset, or determined. At the same time many people are saying that its not a big deal. Grow up, be a big boy, its a harmless, meaningless word. Well then where's the power.
What does it matter anyway.
So far the responses to my post are s*!+.
Is anyone offened? I hope not. It's such a weak word. If you are, grow up.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Erik, thanks for your clearing up where Paizo stands on this issue and humoring my attempt at a debate regarding how people feal about offensive language in your magazine.
I guess people in general are no longer sensitive to swearing or at least the it is an accurate description of the gaming community on this board. Some have said that using the word s%!& has power. In the context of the short story it was used to push a characters point of view. It meant something. Maybe it meant the character's narrative indicates that he is aggrivated, upset, or determined. At the same time many people are saying that its not a big deal. Grow up, be a big boy, its a harmless, meaningless word. Well then where's the power.
What does it matter anyway.
So far the responses to my post are s%!&.
Is anyone offened? I hope not. It's such a weak word. If you are, grow up.
I'm offended. It's hard to type through the tears. I pride myself on being an upright person, I try never to offend anyone with harsh words or strongly worded opinions. I would never, ever imply that someone is an a$%#%*%, and I hope no one ever takes away that message because I mentioned the word in response to a post. It's just that when you come on here, and you post, and you say my posts are worthless and that I'm trying to offend you or that I am a sexist pig, and, well, it just hurts. Hurts real bad. Because your opinion means a lot to me. It's not like you're just some anonymous a%%@%~# on the internet. You're important. And you've got kids. And I really care about what you think. So to have you say these hurtful things to me, well, it just hurts.
Anyway, I'm too emotional to continue typing. I'm sorry if I offended you or if you got the impression that I think you're an a~@~@$*, because nothing could be further from the truth.
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I'll admit, I was surprised, maybe even shocked when I saw "s@&#" in the story, and I personally don't think that the inclusion/exclusion of the word added anything significant/would have detracted anything significant from the story. However, any arguement you might have provided in defensive of yourself Tim was pretty much killed with that "grow up" comment.
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Erik, thanks for your clearing up where Paizo stands on this issue and humoring my attempt at a debate regarding how people feal about offensive language in your magazine.
I guess people in general are no longer sensitive to swearing or at least the it is an accurate description of the gaming community on this board. Some have said that using the word s%!& has power. In the context of the short story it was used to push a characters point of view. It meant something. Maybe it meant the character's narrative indicates that he is aggrivated, upset, or determined. At the same time many people are saying that its not a big deal. Grow up, be a big boy, its a harmless, meaningless word. Well then where's the power.
What does it matter anyway.
So far the responses to my post are s%!&.
Is anyone offened? I hope not. It's such a weak word. If you are, grow up.
I'm offended. It's hard to type through the tears. I pride myself on being an upright person, I try never to offend anyone with harsh words or strongly worded opinions. I would never, ever imply that someone is an a~%@!~~, and I hope no one ever takes away that message because I mentioned the word in response to a post. It's just that when you come on here, and you post, and you say my posts are worthless and that I'm trying to offend you or that I am a sexist pig, and, well, it just hurts. Hurts real bad. Because your opinion means a lot to me. It's not like you're just some anonymous a~%@!~~ on the internet. You're important. And you've got kids. And I really care about what you think. So to have you say these hurtful things to me, well, it just hurts.
Anyway, I'm too emotional to continue typing. I'm sorry if I offended you or if you got the impression that I think you're an a~%@!~~, because nothing could be further from the truth.
Wow, Sebastian. I am surprised at your suffering over this. To have caused Sebastian's cold, emotionless, lawyers heart to break a little is a horrible deed. I would have to say I think someone is an a&~*~*&. OP, OP, hint-hint.
Keep shielding the innocents and all you are raising is a person who will need to step into the world and be slammed into the ground because they can't take what society has to hand out to people. They will never be able to stand on their own without assistance, and will quickly be either overwhelmed or victimized.
If you wish to raise a victim, OP, go ahead. I prefer to use minor things such as a word like this in a magazine's fictional article as a teaching tool to teach my children what the world is like and how to be a well-rounded person. Not a shut-in that can't function outside of the "womb" that someone decides to create for them.
Grow up yourself, sir.
FH
I'm pretty sure a Sharpie will cure all of your ills with the fiction article - doesn't take much, doesn't cost a lot.
I think you (the OP) blew this topic completely out of proportion and over-the-top with your racial analogy, and you continued with it when two, not one, of the editors posted their reasonings for publishing the article the way they did. How you can contrive that any future endeavors from Paizo will be filled with racial stereotypes and offensive language because of a fiction article with a smattering of four-letter words is beyond me.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Wow, Sebastian. I am surprised at your suffering over this. To have caused Sebastian's cold, emotionless, lawyers heart to break a little is a horrible deed. I would have to say I think someone is an a%&*~!&. OP, OP, hint-hint.
What can I say, I meant everything in my post, deeply and sincerely, from the very bottom of my soul. I mean, it's not like me to have a post be so over the top and maudlin that it would imply that I mean the exact opposite of everything I posted. That's a pretty indirect way of insulting someone, don't you think? Going out of your way to say you don't think they're an a!@%$!! to imply that you do think they're an a#+%!&&. It just doesn't make any sense to post something like that, particularly when the OP's reading comprehension skills are already questionable. The last thing I want is for the OP to misinterpret my post and conclude that I think he is a douchebag. It would hurt too much.
Where oh where to begin.
I freely admit that I too was totally surprised by the opening. In fact, that's part of the reason I read on. Good writing is supposed to be evocative and enthralling, and the story was exactly that. I found it to be thought provoking with a nice sense of élan in a shades-of-grey without being overly foreshadowing kind of way. It's entirely because Dragon / Dungeon is sparing with offensive expletives that makes the occasional use of them compelling.
That's the thing about curse words; they are entirely situational, and sometimes totally appropriate (such as the man in the story, slogging through a sewer). For example: Drunk guy in the back of the rig who fell down the stairs = "No f-bombs for you." Pregnant woman with a kidney stone = "Hey you go lady; swear like a burning nun if it helps."
I have in the recent past given Paizo a lot of flak for their overuse of violent imagery (a big part of why "Charter Subscriber" isn't over my name yet), but personally I'm going to stand behind them 100% on this particular issue.
In regards to the Imus comments:
1. Clue - buy one. The comment was taken from a Spike Lee movie about women playing basketball, and wasn't meant to be derogatory. Because of the context it was used in, everyone had a hairy canip. Sad that it is safer to call women
2. Talk about faulty logic and trolling. If this were slashdot I'd feel the need to type "YHBT HAND."
Also, it is interesting to note that not everyone finds the same words offensive (although there do appear to be some universal constants, such as the "Big C" [ladies, you know what I'm talking about here]). For a terrific example of this, google around for the BBC study named, "Delete Expletives?"
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Sebastian, do you have kids, a wife, or a girlfriend? If you do, do you like to swear in their presence? Do you swear at them.
I don't. Sadly, no other human being will associate with me due to my foul mouth and poor hygiene. The only contact I have with my fellow humans is via the internet. I come here and am mean and cranky to have little power trips making fun of people. It's the only thing that brings me joy.
Sometimes though, I dream of being sensitive and caring. I make promises to myself that I won't lash out at people. I try and believe that I don't need to make fun of the tragically stupid to feel good about myself.
Perhaps my greatest weakness though is my sensitivity to well-reasoned arguments that clearly illustrate the connection between one swear word appearing in a piece of fiction and the downfall of Western civilization.
If I did have a spouse and kids though, let me assure you, I would strictly monitor everything they ever listened to, read, or watched. No risque mermaids in Peter Pan, no killing of imaginary creatures in D&D, and, god forbid, if a J.C. Penny catalogue should ever arrive on my doorstep with its filthy lingerie section...well...let's just say that I would write a very nasty letter to them.
I suspect you live in a cave and watch porn all day when your not gaming.
It's true. I used to have a job as a projectionist, but got fired for splicing in X-rated scenes ala fight club. My only ambition in life is the corruption of innocence.
However, your posts have changed my mind about that. I see now that what I do is hurtful to women and children and fine morale citizens like yourself. I can't imagine living in a world where we do not cater to the preferences of the most-sensitive members. The thought of offending someone fills me with dread. You are my light Tim, I shall always remember you, and never as a douchebag.
I would prefer Dragon (and Dungeon, and Pathfinder) not include expletives. Likewise, I would prefer Dragon to not feature fiction.
Neither offends me, or will have any significant effect on my buying decisions, however.
BTW - I may rethink my support of your upcoming products if their not fit for consumption for teens and children above the age of 11.
Oh great, another "book burning" thread.
Dude, I've had 8 year olds cuss me out with words I wouldn't even use towards other adults. Want to know why? Bad parenting.
Parents need to take responsibility for their children and their children's actions. They need to stop excusing themselves by blaming other things around them except for themselves. I knew all the "bad words" when I was a kid, but I was respectful enough even as a kid not to use them at adults at the age I was at (or against other kids who like to tattle-tale). Hiding the horrors of the world comes natural to us as parents because we want to protect them, but you can seriously damage a kid's future and personality by taking it too far. And you can't hide it from them forever. They will find out whether you like them to or not. And when they do, you'll feel sorry for not teaching them the right way at handling it rather than leaving them stuck without knowing what to really do.
If a child is taught properly and can learn to be responsible about it, there's no big deal. It's one reason I never understood the whole "OMG, Janet Jackson's boob!" debate, yet it's ok to glorify violence and bloodshed like it was second-nature? Last I checked, the human body and sexual activity is just as natural as violence, why is one more horrible than the other? Heck, why is an act of love more horrible than an act of hate? Make love, not war I always say. I sense a lot of hypocrisy...
So stop blaming the media, magazines, TV shows, cartoons, public/private school, novels, and movies and start taking responsiblity for one's child's actions. NONE of those sources are supposed to be parenting your child.
Both profanity and racism are offensive. Both incorporate slang terms to label actions, people, places, and things. Ho's refers to prostitutes and in the context in which Imus used it, to black women thereby associating black women with prostitutes. s%*# refers to deficating.
The whole Imus thing was taken WAY too far. First of all, hos is a general term talking about prostitutes. As for "nappy headed" the word "nappy" is not a racial term. It means your hair has a wild, thick volume to it. Look up it's definition. I call my nephew a nappy-head cause he's growing a little fro and it's rather adorable on him. And last I researched, he was saying it in the context of a joke. I find it funny that the term ended up being a racial incident...this country is so insecure these days about everything.
But this isn't about Imus, it's about the word s@*& in Dragon Magazine, which I think people here are just taking it too far...like with the Imus incident, like with the Janet Jackson incident, and so on.
The whole Imus thing was taken WAY too far. First of all, hos is a general term talking about prostitutes. As for "nappy headed" the word "nappy" is not a racial term. It means your hair has a wild, thick volume to it. Look up it's definition. I call my nephew a nappy-head cause he's growing a little fro and it's rather adorable on him. And last I researched, he was saying it in the context of a joke. I find it funny that the term ended up being a racial incident...this country is so insecure these days about everything.
Yes, but I don't think Imus was talking about Julia Roberts in Pretty Women.
But to me, there are things in D&D that are more offensive. One word is nothing, in my mind, compared to the portrayal of women, which are often scantily clad. I remember one time seeing a woman on the cover of Dungeon barely wearing anything and then reading that this NPC was supposedly wearing full plate armor. My friends made a joke about it, calling it her "full plate bikini", but really, wouldn't this turn most women off? I personally find this worse for the "impressionable youth" than one little "s$*#"!
Thank you!
Words have power but not as much power as an image. The word s#!% doens't have as much power as f#+! and neither of them are nearly as powerful as n##%$+ or f&$. None of those words hold a candle to an image of a starving child, the aftermath of a large battle, or of kids playing in a field of flowers. Images do more damage than words can ever hope to do, though both are powerful.
With that thought in mind, how do you (as gamers and as people) think that an image of a voluptous scantily clad woman in distress effects the (sub)conscious mind of our society? What about a barbarian in a chainmail bikini? What about the "hero" objectifying women at every turn? I know that theorectically we are all equal and we all should try our hardest to avoid offending others and blah blah blah. But when minorities are still being put down (if only in our subconscious mind through media) are we really equal?
So, in response to your complaint I don't think it's a big deal that s!$& appeared in print becuase many pre-teens and teens say that word without batting an eyelash, so when reading it they are nonplussed. And if you've got a complaint with language, maybe you should look at the game on the whole before picking out one minor detail.
I'm off my soap box now, I swear. >.<
Um, I'm sorry, did the OP really make a post about how the word s~~@ was wildy offensive to him? In a magazine about a game that is all about killing people?????????????
Mr. Kosinski, you sir are a perfect example of why the vast majority of people in the world irritate the crap out of me. Your priorities are ALL screwed up if you get this bent out of shape over one four-letter word, and yet are prefectly happy to pretend to commit murder over and over and over again.
Oh my word, how can you be so bigoted against short people, I am so offended
Short people got no reason to live.
Sebastian, do you have kids, a wife, or a girlfriend? If you do, do you like to swear in their presence? Do you swear at them.I don't. Sadly, no other human being will associate with me due to my foul mouth and poor hygiene. The only contact I have with my fellow humans is via the internet. I come here and am mean and cranky to have little power trips making fun of people. It's the only thing that brings me joy.
Sometimes though, I dream of being sensitive and caring. I make promises to myself that I won't lash out at people. I try and believe that I don't need to make fun of the tragically stupid to feel good about myself.
Perhaps my greatest weakness though is my sensitivity to well-reasoned arguments that clearly illustrate the connection between one swear word appearing in a piece of fiction and the downfall of Western civilization.
If I did have a spouse and kids though, let me assure you, I would strictly monitor everything they ever listened to, read, or watched. No risque mermaids in Peter Pan, no killing of imaginary creatures in D&D, and, god forbid, if a J.C. Penny catalogue should ever arrive on my doorstep with its filthy lingerie section...well...let's just say that I would write a very nasty letter to them.
I suspect you live in a cave and watch porn all day when your not gaming.It's true. I used to have a job as a projectionist, but got fired for splicing in X-rated scenes ala fight club. My only ambition in life is the corruption of innocence.
However, your posts have changed my mind about that. I see now that what I do is hurtful to women and children and fine morale citizens like yourself. I can't imagine living in a world where we do not cater to the preferences of the most-sensitive members. The thought of offending someone fills me with dread. You are my light Tim, I shall always remember you, and never as a douchebag.
LOL! :) do you hang out at Nothingland or Circvs Maximvs? if not, i think they'd enjoy you there and vice versa. ;)
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Sebastian, do you have kids, a wife, or a girlfriend? If you do, do you like to swear in their presence? Do you swear at them.
I suspect you live in a cave and watch porn all day when your not gaming.
Dude! Your cave has electricity AND porn! Can I hang out at you cave when Im done roleplaying tonight?