Just read this in one of the Paizo blogs! Please please please make Iggwilv as awesome and she is. We are talking about the witch who captured Graz'zt. How powerful do you have to be to capture a being who is probably a CR 39 properly statted up Demonomicon style?
Creative Director
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Graz'zt would be CR 32 if he were statted up in the Demonomicon; same as Orcus. Demogorgon is CR 33.
Iggwilv is a wizard 26/archmage 4, so she's CR 30. But she's Really REALLY tough, and more than capable of catching herself a Graz'zt.
In a throw-down fight between Graz'zt and Iggwilv, my money would probably be on Iggwilv.
I mis-typed. Meant to say CR 29 in keeping with the rest already done. CR 32 sounds pretty darn cool to me. CR 33 Demogorgon!!!! Is that what we're getting in the next Dragon?!
I love you guys!
Is Iggwilv actually a level 30 character? Not that I find that hard to believe, but it raises the question about whether it's really worth the space in Dungeon to stat up Iggwilv for the STAP.
Don't get me wrong. I think it would be awesome for her to have a significant role in the STAP, but if that space for what would likely be a complex stat block could be better served by adding an encounter or two to one of the last STAP adventures, the latter sounds more appropriate.
Still, I think it would be pretty cool to see her sling some spells at Abysm from the Abyssal sidelines, or even be statted up in Dragon, instead.
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Creative Director
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Although she'd not yet been statted up, a fair amount about Iggwilv's classes was already set in stone. She's been referred to time and time again as a wizard, and in several older adventures is officially assigned wizard levels of an indeterminate amount. She's also often called an archmage or a witch queen, so it made sense to give her arch mage levels. I was tempted to give her some sort of witch levels, but decided instead to give her 26 wizard levels so she'd get a few bonus epic level feats.
Her knowledge (the planes) is indeed maxed out; it pretty much has to be.
She was built using the elite array. I'm tempted to go back in there and give her an even better array, to be honest; to start her out with an 18 intelligence at 1st level. She is, after all, one of the big-time menaces! But even starting her at an intelligence of 15, she has +7 to her Int from levels, +8 from enhancement bonuses, and +5 from inherent bonuses, for a total Int of 35. If I bump her base to 18, that'd give her an Int of 38. Which is Veeery tempting...
Actually, what the heck. Her ability scores as they currently stand:
Str 10, Dex 22, Con 24, Int 35, Wis 12, Cha 28
She can cast 11th level spells. She can cast epic level spells. She has a brand new epic spell she invented, in fact. She has several epic magic items and artifacts. She doesn't really have any unique Iggwilv-only abilities, but she DOES have a lot of abilities nonetheless.
There's a little bit on her background. A lot more on her personality. We don't reveal her true form, and as far as I'm concerned, her true form should NEVER be nailed down; the form she uses in the Adventure Path is the beautiful raven-hared woman depicted back on the cover to Dungeon #121.
Her relationship with Iuz is briefly touched upon, but not dwelt upon. It's not really that important to the adventure.
Her relationship with Graz'zt gets a bit more details. Graz'zt doesn't have a big presence in this Adventure Path (the reasons why are detailed in issue #149), though.
Her current plans are a huge part of issues #149 and #150. I will reveal no spoilers here.
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Creative Director
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As for the value of statting up 30th level characters... I think there is a value. In fact, there are MULTIPLE creatures in this adventure with CRs above 20. There's at least three with CRs that are 28 or higher. Yes, their stat blocks are immense, but you KNOW there's going to be some PCs who want to pick a fight with Iggwilv or Orcus or Charon or Malcanthet or some of the others, and since it's Dungeon's policy to provide everything you need that's not in the core books... these guys will have stat blocks.
More to the point, giving out their stat blocks gives DMs who aren't running Savage Tide but DO want to run adventures with these characters a resource they can use.
The stat blocks do take up a lot of space, but I've been planning for that for the past year. Which means that we've got a few pretty short other adventures in the issue. It also means that "Enemies of My Enemy" is the second-longest adventure Dungeon has ever published. Maure Castle (#112) being the first longest. The third longest is "The Lich Queen's Beloved," back in #100. I'm not really cutting anything out of it to make space, so you lose nothing by the stats for these epic villains being included and as a bonus... if the party barbarian attacks Iggwilv, you know how many times she can cast an empowered time stop or quickened wishes.
More to the point... these epic level NPCs are, in many cases, going to end up allies of some sort to the party. Whcih means there's a chance that a generous DM might, say, let your party run Iggwilv or Orcus or Malcanthet or someone in a battle or two...
As for the value of statting up 30th level characters...
Plus there is also the "Iggwilv, finally" reaction for those of us that have been Greyhawk fans for a few decades. The ambiguity of Iggwilv has always been fun though, but if we want to keep that going we can always go, "Heck, that was just Jacobs' version to please the masses anyway" and do something else. :)
As for the value of statting up 30th level characters... I think there is a value. In fact, there are MULTIPLE creatures in this adventure with CRs above 20. There's at least three with CRs that are 28 or higher. Yes, their stat blocks are immense, but you KNOW there's going to be some PCs who want to pick a fight with Iggwilv or Orcus or Charon or Malcanthet or some of the others, and since it's Dungeon's policy to provide everything you need that's not in the core books... these guys will have stat blocks.
More to the point, giving out their stat blocks gives DMs who aren't running Savage Tide but DO want to run adventures with these characters a resource they can use.
The stat blocks do take up a lot of space, but I've been planning for that for the past year. Which means that we've got a few pretty short other adventures in the issue. It also means that "Enemies of My Enemy" is the second-longest adventure Dungeon has ever published. Maure Castle (#112) being the first longest. The third longest is "The Lich Queen's Beloved," back in #100. I'm not really cutting anything out of it to make space, so you lose nothing by the stats for these epic villains being included and as a bonus... if the party barbarian attacks Iggwilv, you know how many times she can cast an empowered time stop or quickened wishes.
More to the point... these epic level NPCs are, in many cases, going to end up allies of some sort to the party. Whcih means there's a chance that a generous DM might, say, let your party run Iggwilv or Orcus or Malcanthet or someone in a battle or two...
Well, thank you for the extra effort! You guys at Paizo really go the extra mile, and us fans appreciate it. (Personally, I can't wait to see what's to be done with the linnorms; and, here's hoping the savage creature template shows up again, perhaps in conjunction with the linnorms! Ha!)
I'm looking forward to more NPC stat blocks that will live in infamy amongst my players.
hmm.. one can hope she has some str, dex etc +40 epic spells(at the very least!), that require renewal every few years or so.. (keeping simulcras in gemform, in spell circles to assist in epic spells)
Whats a powerful witch if she cannot beat up a smaller giant in fistfight.. ;)
Oh yeah and another interesting option would be a witch5/witch priestess 10/acm5/hag witch 10 (witches handbook, by green ronin)
Essentially sorcerer with some iirc 3 domains.. A TON of 9th level spells (~35/day!, yes even after having lost several to archmagedom) and getting her race changed to green hag... with all the bonuses that gives ;)
I think the best thing will be any information on her background. What is her true form? How is her relationship with Graz'zt and Iuz? What are her current plans?
Oh yeah, I'm definitely looking forward to the background and lore on Iggwilv. Ever since Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth, I've had an unhealthy fascination with Iggwilv and her deeds. She's the kind of dirty, dark secret that people like to pretend doesn't exist.
Yes, their stat blocks are immense, but you KNOW there's going to be some PCs who want to pick a fight with Iggwilv or Orcus or Charon or Malcanthet or some of the others, and since it's Dungeon's policy to provide everything you need that's not in the core books... these guys will have stat blocks.
Whoa...did you just say Charon?
<pinches self, looks again>
You did! Finally an uber-loth in 3E! :)
Hey James. It sounds like its not too late to go back and give her that 18 Int to start. Honestly, a wizard this awesome starting with a 15 Int? C'mon. You know you wanna.
Let's go guys! Pressure James to boost her Int!
Elite array? Isn't that just the quick and dirty 25 point buy? Move some points man! It shouldn't be that hard to squeege up 8.... more.... points.
Hell with it, give that girl a 32 point buy, give her CR a +2 for having the "Eternal Villain Epic Edition-Spanning Badass" array, and call it good!
Hell, forget 32 point buy. Give her 36 point buy! She deseves it!
Oh, and I am all for giving her an 18 int.!
What issue is Orcus going to be in?
I don't plan on running the adventure, but I've been in need of Orcus stats for years and an issue of Dungeon is more affordable than FC1. So, question: Do I need anything other than the core books to use the big guy?
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Creative Director
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I don't plan on running the adventure, but I've been in need of Orcus stats for years and an issue of Dungeon is more affordable than FC1. So, question: Do I need anything other than the core books to use the big guy?
Ok. I'm convinced. I'll be giving Iggwilv a better stat array. She's already got gear as if she was a PC. Might as well go the full route.
The stats for Orcus in Dungeon #149 are for a CR 32 version of him. And as with all issues of Dungeon, all you need's the core rules. We reprint enough that you can use the magazines without anything else, but what we reprint is bare-bones. If you want to do any expansion or customization, the reprinted material won't be enough.
Then I'm sold. First issue of Dungeon I'll be buying since the Darksun issue (been subscribed to Dragon since before 3e though).
Yes, their stat blocks are immense, but you KNOW there's going to be some PCs who want to pick a fight with Iggwilv or Orcus or Charon or Malcanthet or some of the others, and since it's Dungeon's policy to provide everything you need that's not in the core books... these guys will have stat blocks.Whoa...did you just say Charon?
<pinches self, looks again>
You did! Finally an uber-loth in 3E! :)
Actually It looks as If the Uber-Loth boatman Is on the next Dungeon cover...go check It out!
DAve
Hmmm... would be kind of cool to run Quicksilver Hourglass with Iggwilv, etc...
BOW DOWN TO THE GREYHAWKY UBER-GEEK STAT-CRUNCHINESS!!
I'd just like SOMEBODY to admit that there is ANYBODY on Oerth that would give Elminster (or, as I call him el Min/Maxista) a few nightmares.
<putters down the hall towards the Old Fart Lounge to play his 1st Ed psionic bard, muttering something about splitting xp three ways... :) >
Iggwilv's great and all, really (yawn)
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But, seriously, Orcus on the Demogorgon adventure path in an episode called, of all things "The Enemy of my Enemy?" I've been waiting for this since I first read about their mutual hatred in 3rd grade, and I'm in about 23rd grade right now. Usually, I hate it when NPCs steal the spotlight from PC action in even the smallest way, but for these two, for old times' sake, I must say there should be an exception.
Second edition did not go well for either of these two (Orcus actually DIED, while Demogorgon languished in obscurity as a lesser god of thinking manta-rays), so I'm glad to see them getting the Paizo treatment. I'm sure it will be as good as I hope (I mean, if they can get me all worked up about Kyuss...)
Are we going to get Demonomicon articles on Orcus and Demogorgon for our last issues of Dragon? Because if we are, I'll be very happy indeed. (Speaking of final isues: Just noticed the ecology article on the docket for the final issue .. couldn't think of anything more appropriate!)
Ok. I'm convinced. I'll be giving Iggwilv a better stat array. She's already got gear as if she was a PC. Might as well go the full route.The stats for Orcus in Dungeon #149 are for a CR 32 version of him. And as with all issues of Dungeon, all you need's the core rules. We reprint enough that you can use the magazines without anything else, but what we reprint is bare-bones. If you want to do any expansion or customization, the reprinted material won't be enough.
FINALLY!! Better stat array! Gear equal to a PC! Yes! While I understand the balance issues of the wealth by level charts and that anything an NPC has could become party treasure, Iggwilv clearly will be more than they could ever handle. I mean, c'mon, personal power aside, all she has to do is call in a few favors...
Iggwilv's great and all, really (yawn)
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But, seriously, Orcus on the Demogorgon adventure path in an episode called, of all things "The Enemy of my Enemy?" I've been waiting for this since I first read about their mutual hatred in 3rd grade, and I'm in about 23rd grade right now. Usually, I hate it when NPCs steal the spotlight from PC action in even the smallest way, but for these two, for old times' sake, I must say there should be an exception.Second edition did not go well for either of these two (Orcus actually DIED, while Demogorgon languished in obscurity as a lesser god of thinking manta-rays), so I'm glad to see them getting the Paizo treatment. I'm sure it will be as good as I hope (I mean, if they can get me all worked up about Kyuss...)
Are we going to get Demonomicon articles on Orcus and Demogorgon for our last issues of Dragon? Because if we are, I'll be very happy indeed. (Speaking of final isues: Just noticed the ecology article on the docket for the final issue .. couldn't think of anything more appropriate!)
Oh Yes James has mentioned "Demogorgon" will be In one of the last Demonomicons...WooHoo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
P.S. You know I would buy a subscription to Demonomicon Magazine If they decided to make It lol? Think of all the cool infinite Demon Lords you could make up. That would be flippin' great!
DAve
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Ok. I'm convinced. I'll be giving Iggwilv a better stat array. She's already got gear as if she was a PC. Might as well go the full route.
Be sure to give her a solid selection of spells from the Spell Compendium and some really nasty tactics to use as well. If I know my players (and I do), they will try to fight her, and I want her to make them suffer!
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Creative Director
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Be sure to give her a solid selection of spells from the Spell Compendium and some really nasty tactics to use as well. If I know my players (and I do), they will try to fight her, and I want her to make them suffer!Ok. I'm convinced. I'll be giving Iggwilv a better stat array. She's already got gear as if she was a PC. Might as well go the full route.
That won't happen. This issue is already bursting at the seams, and if we utilize Spell Compendium spells, we have to either reprint the details or print a chunk of "Substitute these spells from the core rules" type thing. And in addition, I don't really have time to sift through the entire Spell Compendium to super-optimize her stuff. And finally... the Spell Compendium is kind of wonky in places. A lot of the spells have balance issues.
She DOES have a few spells from Fiendish Codex I. And truth be told, she probably DOES know every wizard spell, so in the end, each DM should absolutely customize her spell selection to their campaign.
But don't worry. She doesn't need the Spell Compendium to be able to ruin the PCs. We've actually been spending the last week on and off poking holes in her defenses, and I'm pretty sure she's tough enough that she'll be able to wipe out a group of 19th level characters who think they're tough enough to take her on.
Actually... if anyone has any tactics that they think a 19th level party could use to quickly defeat a 30th level wizard... go ahead and post them here if you'd like. I'd love to see some tactics, if only to make sure Iggwilv's ready for them. She's got an INT score of 38 now, so she's pretty smart...
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Are we going to get Demonomicon articles on Orcus and Demogorgon for our last issues of Dragon?
Dragon #357 will have a Demonomicon of Demogorgon.
Dragon #359 will have a special Demonomicon that has some other surprises in it; it's not about Orcus. Well... parts of it will be, but there's a lot more I want to say about demons than just about Orcus. He's had a lot written about him already. What about all those other demons?
If I'ld been the one statting up Iggie, I'ld have made her a sorcerer 15/fiend-blooded 10 /archmage 5.
But that's mainly thanks to the fact that always assumed that she was a sorcerer for some reason, and that I really like the fiend-blooded presige class. The #149 stats sound much better. :)
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Actually... if anyone has any tactics that they think a 19th level party could use to quickly defeat a 30th level wizard... go ahead and post them here if you'd like. I'd love to see some tactics, if only to make sure Iggwilv's ready for them. She's got an INT score of 38 now, so she's pretty smart...
Well, my players pulled a fast one once and built a clay golem, they kept it in a portable hole (which should be big enough to hold one according to the DMG description), they popped it out whenever they faced a spellcaster. The party wizard even picked up "energy substitution (acid)" so that he could heal it by sacrificing spells (or by catching hostile targets and the golem in the wake of an acid fireball, acid cone of cold, etc.). I'm sure they would have built an iron golem if they could port it around in their portable hole (the bag should only be 10 feet deep, while the golem is 12 feet tall).
The mystic theurge in the party has already picked craft wondrous item and craft magic arms & armor. I'm willing to bet the next feat will be craft construct.
OK, I really like all this about Iggwilv (sorry, but 'Iggy' means Iggy Popp to me...), but what about statting Iuz? Yes, I admit that he gets alot of attention, but he IS the Oerth's resident Evil Supervillain after all....
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Creative Director
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OK, I really like all this about Iggwilv (sorry, but 'Iggy' means Iggy Popp to me...), but what about statting Iuz? Yes, I admit that he gets alot of attention, but he IS the Oerth's resident Evil Supervillain after all....
Iuz dosn't really have a role in Savage Tide, so there's not much point to statting him up. PLUS: He's a deity, so his stat block would be nightmarishly difficult to generate. I've edited two deity stat blocks in Dungeon so far. I'd rather not extend that to three. :)
OK, I really like all this about Iggwilv (sorry, but 'Iggy' means Iggy Popp to me...), but what about statting Iuz? Yes, I admit that he gets alot of attention, but he IS the Oerth's resident Evil Supervillain after all....
He's actually been done already. If you have a collection of back issues of Dragon magazine, dig up Dragon #294. Iuz and a few other Greyhawk gods were statted up. It's prior to v.3.5, but still useful.
James and Steve,
Thanks very much for the replies, but I think that I want to make the point that Iuz's home plane IS Oerth. He is a diety that player characters can actually encounter (albeit when things go horribly, horribly wrong....) and so some sort of thumbnail stat block would be useful. HOWever, I can see where statting up a freak like Iuz would easily kill a full workday (or three). Like James, I'm thinking that's something worth avoiding.
Wow, I have to say thanks for so much interesting news about Iggwilv and the last instalments of Dungeon. I once made up a very cool female wizard villain and this is quite similar to what I had envisioned. That nice lady was pretty much able to stand her ground with an epic ruin spell ... sweet memories.
This thread actually makes me ponder the levels of the other big bad guys, interesting mages of Greyhawk lore. We have Rary's stats and most of the other Eight, but what about such classics as Acererak (before he became a vestige), Zagyg (before he became a god or after), Lyzandred the Mad, and that mad two-headed lich (now what is his name???)
Any ideas?
and that mad two-headed lich (now what is his name???)
Any ideas?
The two headed lich is Xaene. In 2nd ed. it was an 16 level mage with a neutral head and an evil head.
You can see it'S stats on page 81 of the book "Fate of Istus".
The biggest thing I always considering using against Wizards is Anti-Magic field and pummeling them with Golems or simply tough PCs, using mundane means like Trip attacks, grappling, and other effects to chew them to pieces. Also, Dimensional Lock is also a consideration to factor into escape routes. I assume Iggy's Epic Spells let her blow through Non-Epics like Anti-magic? Also, fear the Shapechange, as astute players might turn into a Beholder, Hive Mother, or the like and cover her in an Antimagic field or similiar debilitating aura. (I haven't really poured through the books to see what creatures that are shape-changable really screw up wizards, but I'm sure there are a few. The Balhannoth (MMIV) and any number of golems comes to mind...)
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Creative Director
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Yeah... antimagic + golem or antimagic + grapple is generally a great way to take care of wizards. Iggwilv's more or less immune to that tactic, since she possesses an artifact that lets her (among other things) plane shift at will as if she were wearing an amulet of the planes. Artifact magic does indeed blast throguh antimagic.
So if they hit her with that tactic, she plane shifts away, fires off some prep spells or simething, then plane shifts back in a different position to go to town on the PCs.
Kobold Press
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Which adventure is Charon in? Is it, in fact, "The Wells of Darkness?" Also, how powerful is he?
Charon appears in "Enemies of my Enemy" (issue 149).
How powerful? Very. I think he was roughly CR 22, and James may have bumped him up slightly. The adventure path is veering deeper into epic territory than the original spec called for.
Which is a good thing.
Charon appears in "Enemies of my Enemy" (issue 149).
How powerful? Very. I think he was roughly CR 22, and James may have bumped him up slightly. The adventure path is veering deeper into epic territory than the original spec called for.
Which is a good thing.
I noticed how quickly things got epic in this path. By Into The Maw, the first epic combat was already on the table. I was getting seriously excited at the idea of my players being truly epic for the last adventure or two, since it seems like campaigns always end as soon as everyone gets their coolest abilities.
But then I got issue 148... It sort of makes me wonder why Wells of Darkness is so lacking in suitable challenges.
I can't wait for your adventure. You've yet to disappoint me.
Actually... if anyone has any tactics that they think a 19th level party could use to quickly defeat a 30th level wizard... go ahead and post them here if you'd like. I'd love to see some tactics, if only to make sure Iggwilv's ready for them. She's got an INT score of 38 now, so she's pretty smart...Well, my players pulled a fast one once and built a clay golem, they kept it in a portable hole (which should be big enough to hold one according to the DMG description), they popped it out whenever they faced a spellcaster. The party wizard even picked up "energy substitution (acid)" so that he could heal it by sacrificing spells (or by catching hostile targets and the golem in the wake of an acid fireball, acid cone of cold, etc.). I'm sure they would have built an iron golem if they could port it around in their portable hole (the bag should only be 10 feet deep, while the golem is 12 feet tall).
The mystic theurge in the party has already picked craft wondrous item and craft magic arms & armor. I'm willing to bet the next feat will be craft construct.
Clay golems? Pshaw! Anyone of Iggwilv's stature is probably protected by one or more demonflesh golems, not to mention a retinue of demonic slaves and a goristro "on call".
But then I got issue 148... It sort of makes me wonder why Wells of Darkness is so lacking in suitable challenges.
I'll second that. My PCs are in Serpents of Scuttlecove currently, and looking over the next couple adventures, there's nothing that can come close to even hurting the party as it stands. I think I'm going to have to soup the hell out of most if not all the monsters in Into the Maw and Wells of Darkness.