Sir Smash Alot... I remember, and for the sake of not typing a rant I'm going to paste exactly what you said because I agree completely
Ever since that day I cannot stand even thinking about those players who do that! I would kick him right then and there if I was DM, rash? Yes. But I don't care for those who kill their group members when the member has done nothing to them! If your players disagree with kicking(I don't see why they would) then talk to and about him with your group and decide to give him a second chance I suppose...still I wouldn't. When it comes to this stuff I'm not one to give second chances much if at all! This guy is coming back to our group because our DM has a shortage on players and we are starting a new campaign, it has been almost a year since he has played under the DMing of my friend and if he tries anything like that again he is out for good, I am also allowing him to come to my DM sessions because our shortage on players...we really need to get some more people to come, but we have some possible people to come. I will allow this guy to stay even when we get enough people because he had been my friend for a good 5 years or so...when it comes to DnD though he is not always easily controllable.
Yep, that sums it up :)
So how did we talk him out of it anyway?
When the Elf character refused to kneel but also refused to fight back, he simply lopped his head off.Sorry, Zealot, but you screwed up. Under no circumstances should you allow one character to simply kill another without resort to the RAW. A coup-de-grace requires the victim be helpless, and it does so for a damn good reason. So, the Paladin can attack the elf, he can try to kill the elf, but he can't simply declare "I kill the elf" and have it be done... he's got to roll for that one.
Whereupon the player of the elf gets to respond, the rest of the PCs get to respond, and the rest of the army get to respond.
Pal the elf was willingly not fighting back. That includes doging out of the way. He LET himself be killed so their would not be a race war. Even though he was fully capeable of defending himself he willingly made himself helpless. RAW is intact.
Edit: actually, never mind - further reading of the thread negates my point!
Let it also be known that this particular player has done this to various DM's since his first adventure, he revels in throwing what he calls "Monkey Wrenches", arguing that a good DM should be able to handle anything that he throws at them.
Bin him. If nothing else, this attitude alone marks the player as a problem. Unless he's willing to change his style dramatically (and the evidence says not), he's not worth the trouble.
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Ok, everybody agrees the paladin was not behaving LG. LE or at best LN.
If he wants to be redeemed (as in the player is willing to try and be less of a monkey-butt wrench-chucker) you can always RP a heart ot heart with his God, and send him off to the afterlife to find the now dead elf. Basically a free atonement spell.
Hopefully the paladin can convince the party to go with him, and help get their friend back.
If the quest is successful, they return to the moment just before the attack, and the paladin checks his swing before the decap. Life goes on with lessons learned (keep the memories and xp earned)
Elf player can run a NPC for the duration of the save the elf quest, some kind of guide to the other side.
Quest failed, paladin dies (as in quest is get him back or die trying) and the elf gets to come back as a risen martyr.
On the other hand, if the paladin chooses not to play along, he is on a short trip to being the leader of the evil army. Perhaps simply disappearing and reappearing later as a NPC blackguard.
Of course all this depends on how far you got after the incident. Hard to take back even a few hours of play.
"monkey butt wrench chucker" Heh heh, I REALLY like that, if you don't mind, I'll be using it in tomorrow nights game.
The way I always understood it, a LG Paladin killed EVIL guys. Deserting a fight that sounds like it was a fight you were talked into in the first place ain't evil - Neutral-to-Chaotic on the Law-Chaos axis, maybe, bot not Evil on the Good-Evil axis.
And players who delight in tossing "monkey-wrenches" into a game won't last. I have a player who likes to push the limit as far as I'll possibly LET him, and *that* caused difficult times for me in the past, but once I talked to my main confidante-#1-Player, I understood what he was actually doing and changed *my* gaming style so as to avoid feeling like he was wrecking MY GAME! I mean, since we are all playing for fun, why not figure out how *I* could have fun playing *his* style of game.
Ah, but back to the exercise at hand. Chuck the budding Blackguard RFN.
JMO.
We had a similar event in which my buddy's paladin PC killed my ranger. We had just emerged from White Plume Mountain (1e), and the paladin was carrying Blackrazor, and the DM decided that Graz'zt (the main campaign villain) would view this as too good an opportunity to pass up. So a *smokin'* hot drow high priestess approached the group and promised if the paladin killed the female wizard character on a dark altar, he'd become all-powerful or something. My buddy yelled "COOL!" and jumped at it. He loved playing a LG paladin, and did it well, but was ready for something new. My ranger naturally tried to rescue the wizard and was cut down. I didn't cry or anything though; it was WAY worth it.
During the later course of the campaign, that then-blackguard finally recanted his evil ways; good clerics pierced his body with iron rods "to drive out the demons possessing him," and the character is now an ex-paladin ex-blackguard. Game mechanically, he's worthless. But the character background and personality are complex enough that he remains a focal character in the campaign.
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Ok, everybody agrees the paladin was not behaving LG. LE or at best LN.
If he wants to be redeemed (as in the player is willing to try and be less of a monkey-butt wrench-chucker) you can always RP a heart ot heart with his God, and send him off to the afterlife to find the now dead elf. Basically a free atonement spell.
Hopefully the paladin can convince the party to go with him, and help get their friend back.
If the quest is successful, they return to the moment just before the attack, and the paladin checks his swing before the decap. Life goes on with lessons learned (keep the memories and xp earned)
Elf player can run a NPC for the duration of the save the elf quest, some kind of guide to the other side.
Quest failed, paladin dies (as in quest is get him back or die trying) and the elf gets to come back as a risen martyr.
This is one of the better ideas I have heard. In my defense when the actual act happened my gaming group and I were totally in shock and since I am so into Roleplaying, I HATE DM rewinds. I love this concept and will probably use it, thank you very much.
-V-
The way I always understood it, a LG Paladin killed EVIL guys. Deserting a fight that sounds like it was a fight you were talked into in the first place ain't evil - Neutral-to-Chaotic on the Law-Chaos axis, maybe, bot not Evil on the Good-Evil axis.
And players who delight in tossing "monkey-wrenches" into a game won't last. I have a player who likes to push the limit as far as I'll possibly LET him, and *that* caused difficult times for me in the past, but once I talked to my main confidante-#1-Player, I understood what he was actually doing and changed *my* gaming style so as to avoid feeling like he was wrecking MY GAME! I mean, since we are all playing for fun, why not figure out how *I* could have fun playing *his* style of game.
Ah, but back to the exercise at hand. Chuck the budding Blackguard RFN.
JMO.
The DMG II has some great advice on player styles and how to DM them. It is great because it gives example of the styles, what are the pitfalls for each style and how to engage a player of each of the styles of game play. But from what I read in the original post, this guy goes beyond a playing style issue.
We had a similar event in which my buddy's paladin PC killed my ranger. We had just emerged from White Plume Mountain (1e), and the paladin was carrying Blackrazor, and the DM decided that Graz'zt (the main campaign villain) would view this as too good an opportunity to pass up. So a *smokin'* hot drow high priestess approached the group and promised if the paladin killed the female wizard character on a dark altar, he'd become all-powerful or something. My buddy yelled "COOL!" and jumped at it. He loved playing a LG paladin, and did it well, but was ready for something new. My ranger naturally tried to rescue the wizard and was cut down. I didn't cry or anything though; it was WAY worth it.
During the later course of the campaign, that then-blackguard finally recanted his evil ways; good clerics pierced his body with iron rods "to drive out the demons possessing him," and the character is now an ex-paladin ex-blackguard. Game mechanically, he's worthless. But the character background and personality are complex enough that he remains a focal character in the campaign.
Cool man.
Sir Smash Alot... I remember, and for the sake of not typing a rant I'm going to paste exactly what you said because I agree completely
Ever since that day I cannot stand even thinking about those players who do that! I would kick him right then and there if I was DM, rash? Yes. But I don't care for those who kill their group members when the member has done nothing to them! If your players disagree with kicking(I don't see why they would) then talk to and about him with your group and decide to give him a second chance I suppose...still I wouldn't. When it comes to this stuff I'm not one to give second chances much if at all! This guy is coming back to our group because our DM has a shortage on players and we are starting a new campaign, it has been almost a year since he has played under the DMing of my friend and if he tries anything like that again he is out for good, I am also allowing him to come to my DM sessions because our shortage on players...we really need to get some more people to come, but we have some possible people to come. I will allow this guy to stay even when we get enough people because he had been my friend for a good 5 years or so...when it comes to DnD though he is not always easily controllable.
Yep, that sums it up :)
So how did we talk him out of it anyway?
In truth Onrie...I have no idea how we talked him out of it. It sure would have been a waste for a lvl 15 to die because a PC thought it would make him all powerful. You know, just asking, were you ever going to let him become a vampire if he did kill my character? Either way I was lucky to get out of it with a still working Character Sheet-Phew'
Sir Smashes Alot
Sir Smash Alot... I remember, and for the sake of not typing a rant I'm going to paste exactly what you said because I agree completely
Ever since that day I cannot stand even thinking about those players who do that! I would kick him right then and there if I was DM, rash? Yes. But I don't care for those who kill their group members when the member has done nothing to them! If your players disagree with kicking(I don't see why they would) then talk to and about him with your group and decide to give him a second chance I suppose...still I wouldn't. When it comes to this stuff I'm not one to give second chances much if at all! This guy is coming back to our group because our DM has a shortage on players and we are starting a new campaign, it has been almost a year since he has played under the DMing of my friend and if he tries anything like that again he is out for good, I am also allowing him to come to my DM sessions because our shortage on players...we really need to get some more people to come, but we have some possible people to come. I will allow this guy to stay even when we get enough people because he had been my friend for a good 5 years or so...when it comes to DnD though he is not always easily controllable.
Yep, that sums it up :)
So how did we talk him out of it anyway?
In truth Onrie...I have no idea how we talked him out of it. It sure would have been a waste for a lvl 15 to die because a PC thought it would make him all powerful. You know, just asking, were you ever going to let him become a vampire if he did kill my character? Either way I was lucky to get out of it with a still working Character Sheet-Phew'
Sir Smashes Alot
Let him become a vampire, sure! Killing you your friend and half brother just screams vampire flavor, of course, there always is a catch. Your spirit would have risen as a +3 challenge rating ghost to follow him and avenge you or Tensar would have gotten a ressurection. I hadn't decided. Either way it would make for an extremely intersting campaign
People cheeze out to Blackrazor, man. It can't be helped. ;)
Doth not Blackrazor reek of Stormbringer / Mournblade cheesiness ? ^_^
Frankly, the code of honor of paladins and other such characters should be clearly outlined, in advance, by the GM to such players as are running the Awful Good types.
My definition of LG would probably by most be filed under NG. There's really a necessity of pre-game definitions of such things before some one spends the time and energy to create a Paladin-type. It can be quite disheartening to find out that the player's take on playing such a character rather unpleasantly contradicts the GM's perspective.
And the WoTC website does have a particularly good article or blurb addressing this specific matter. In summary, as the GM it is basically expected that you will not set up such characters in a Catch .22 - where no matter what they do, the paladin is guaranteed to become an ex-paladin.
Pardons in advance if I'm not 100% on the mark with the topic of the post.
In games I play, there is a chance paladin could have done this and actually survived. It is not very big chance, since even if DM chooses not to fill the character with elven arrows, there is a big chance that other player characters deal with the problem (PCs killing other PCs is typically allowed in games I lead, and it does happen...in situations like these). And chances are that even if for some reason the character does not get killed in this situation, death will come sooner or later (and most likely from his "allies").
If the player has some problem with this, it might be better for him to consider if he should continue with our group.
*A very intriguing story*
Wow, that Paladin sounds more like Darth Vader than anything remotely resembling LG. That guy's got Lawful Evil written all over him. If you or Zealot seriously have to explain to him how what he did was absolutely un-paladin like, then this guy is in the wrong game.
I still can't believe every elf in sight didn't fill him full of arrows. Especially after breaking up the Song of Mourning. That alone sounds like it would be fight-worthy.
The paladin's player said that because his character had earned his experience, his new character that he was bringing in was going to have 11000 experience points compared to the rest of the party's 8500.
What next character?
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The paladin's player said that because his character had earned his experience, his new character that he was bringing in was going to have 11000 experience points compared to the rest of the party's 8500.
1. Why does this jerk think he'll be allowed to continue with the game?
2. Since when do players assign themselves XP? Somebody should have told me this ages ago when I was playing a very squishy wizard, I could have rocketted to epic levels.
Okay OP, we've heard your story and the elf's story, and chance we can get the paladin to come here and tell us his part?
The original poster hasn't posted anything for the last three years. I'm pretty sure he won't hear you.
I knew it was a necroed thread, but that is one damn interesting situation that sounds like it was roleplayed well. The guy should certainly lose his paladin status, but I think he should become a LE alternative paladin-thingie over time without him even knowing- it could have been a great roleplaying experience that would have taught the player something without the ugly side of the "NEVER ATTACK A FELLOW PARTY MEMBER/PLAYER!" trope. Before the all-evil campaign we had going, I would have probably sided with Heath and others, but that particular game taught me a lot about inter-party fighting and, paradoxically enough, unity. That said, if the player himself is a jerk who enjoys derailing games, boot him.
Okay OP, we've heard your story and the elf's story, and chance we can get the paladin to come here and tell us his part?The original poster hasn't posted anything for the last three years. I'm pretty sure he won't hear you.
I hadn't noticed that when I responded. Damn thread necromancy.
I have to say, though some may not have made the same choices you made, the Paladin still behaved very unpaladiny and should be stripped of his title. A Paladin does not strike down an unarmed foe, let alone a good aligned party member.
That pretty much sums up my feelings too.
Now I know why my DM doesn't allow pallys in his games because they can cause so much inter party conflict.
As far as leaership goes we change based on the situation. When were in the wilderness the druid leads,
when were in the dungeons the scout/theif leads,
when were at court or some sort of social situation the cleric/highest charisma leads.
We've done this alot and with evil parties and it works very well.
I'm not saying that in my 20+yrs of gameing I have never been "that guy" that has killed another charecter BUT they started it.
I hadn't noticed that when I responded. Damn thread necromancy.Thread + Necromancy = Threadomancy?
Maybe Necro..thread...ster? Master of the "Unthread"?
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The OPs situation was pretty much the standard for Paladin or Paladin-Cavalier behavior when I was in college.
We didn't allow them for two decades, because of that.
Too much inter-party conflict, backstabbing and middle-of-the-night throat-slittings, not to mention the more common passive-aggressive methods of killing other PCs, by refusing to heal them (and not bothering to mention this until the character is at negative hit points), or by provoking monster / NPC attacks (and that seemed to be the preferred tactic for Paladins, provoking NPC kings / benefactors / etc. to execute the entire party by sabotaging RP scenes with outrageously offensive behavior).
The Cavalier / social status rules in Unearthed Arcana just kicked it up a notch, with both players and DMs just assuming that anyone playing a knight or higher status character would kill any lower-status PC (or NPC) who got uppity, and attacking merchants or passersby or quest NPCs who weren't 'properly respectful,' occasionally leading to bloodbaths, since the 'disrespectful' villagers were rarely able to fend off an angry Paladin.
The Unearthed Arcana Barbarian with his 'might attack magic-using PCs' code of misconduct wasn't much better...
The 'better than thou' class of 1st and 2nd edition was like catnip to bullies and people who wanted to feel 'more special than you,' it seemed.
'You attacked my prisoner!'
'You interfered in my honorable single combat!'
'You took that share of party treasure that only your class can use without asking me first!'
'Your fireball damaged my horse, even if you casting before I charge was the plan that *I* ordered, and then broke by charging before you cast!'
The Unearthed Arcana Barbarian with his 'might attack magic-using PCs' code of misconduct wasn't much better...
I had totally forgotten about that! Not so fond memories...
Okay this is a largely elven army being led by a "human" paladin, he executed the elven member of his own party after finding out he had helped a portion of the "elven" contingent of his forces to go home.
Anyone else of LG nature would have asked why and according to the thread this idiot not only didn't he apparently had no idea that he may well lead the army but he isn't the one who "understands" them.
He executed the member of the party who was keeping his elven contingent on his side.
No offence but even if they didn't immediately execute him he's now lost the part of his army that consists of elves, out of curiosity if anyone who was involved in that game is still reading this thread what exactly happened afterwards?
good stuff.
+1 for the reply, and another +1 for the hot iggy pic. ;-)
I'd like to hear more about the "*smokin'* hot drow high priestess" that Kirth mentioned. Pictures would be nice, too.
Summary execution of a person for treason (or desertion) in a time of war is actually on the books in the United States Uniform Code of Military Justice. Not that we're Lawful Good, just saying that it's there.
Most people play paladins as intolerable tools. They are self-righteous, pompous, demanding, obnoxious hypocrites most of the time. For some reason this is allowed.
My paladins are champions of justice. They are compassionate, kind, self-sacrificing, considerate and honorable. Lawful requires respect for the law, but Good requires compassion and forgiveness.
I would have made the offending paladin Lawful Neutral, removed his paladin status and had an emissary of his deity explain to him what would be required for atonement. In the paladin's place I would have at worst ordered my friend's imprisonment until I could ascertain the details and reason for this apparent betrayal. To err is human, to forgive is divine.
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Furthermore, I'm kind of sick of how players of role playing games have to act like such special snow flakes that they can't let another player run the show for a while.
I don't know about this situation for sure, but it stinks of the PLAYERS of the game not respecting the guy playing the paladin, and transferring that into character where they undermine his authority.
He then pitched a fit when a party member asked him to explain himself, stating that he was the leader and he made HIS decision.
The paladin's player said that because his character had earned his experience, his new character that he was bringing in was going to have 11000 experience points compared to the rest of the party's 8500
Let it also be known that this particular player has done this to various DM's since his first adventure, he revels in throwing what he calls "Monkey Wrenches", arguing that a good DM should be able to handle anything that he throws at them.
After the war, with heavy elven losses, I had all the elves set up camp slightly separate from the other races, and when any non-elves entered the camp, the were very politely asked to leave- including another PC (half-giant) who had led a contingent of archers, but due to some bad rolls, he lost most of them and by the end of the battle, they hated him and blamed him for their losses. At the time, my character had the point of view that there was no one there to 'take care' of his people, so he appointed himself to the position. After I had taken care of everyone as much as possible, I waited for the star's to start coming out, then started to lead the 'Song of Mourning'.
When the paladin realized that one of his appointed 'commanders' (the half-giant) had not been allowed to camp with his troops, he got pissed! Right in the middle of the 'Song of Mourning' the paladin storms into the elven camp and starts yelling orders and calling the half-giant's troops to attention.
I told the elves to keep singing and tried to lead the paladin away for a talk. He got mad at me for 'shaming' him in front of the troops, warned me of 'consequences' to follow in the morning, then left- without allowing me ANY type of explanation.
Everything I did was in the interest of Role-Playing (my character is built around RP to the point of sacrificing in-game skills and abilities) and while I knew (as a player) that some of the things I was doing may not have been a good idea, I was playing my character, and I was still careful to keep everything 'fixable' with some fun role-playing.
One of the players at the table was being an insufferable dick and a prima donna! Guess which one!
If anyone was acting like an oh so special snowflake, it was Captain Egotrippin' playing the fighter without bonus feats.
Wow, you sure miss a lot when you don't go online for a few weeks (Wizards, Paizo, Pathfinder, etc)
As the elf in question, here's the rest of the story: My elf was pure CG, he ignored or worked around given orders almost all the time, but always to do what he saw as beneficial to the greatest number of people (and usually without anyone knowing that he hadn't 'followed orders').
So you have a history of disobeying orders and lying about it.
You let your soldiers desert the army.Seems like your character is purposely created to cause a Paladin issues.
What he did was lawful and right, but not good. Treasonous actions are grounds for executions.
DM should warn him he is leaning more LN than LG. He should be more good in his actions.
You have a CG character and a LG character at odds over how to handle a situation. This is to be expected.
Summary executions are reserved for "in the face of the enemy." Guy turns and runs "in the face of the enemy," he's shot for deserting. If there is no actual battle in progress a trial is the usual method for handling this. He might be sentenced to death, sure, but he should not be summarily executed. Especially by a Lawful Good character.
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Killing your ally in cold blood is 'good'? Wow. The orcs are among us.
Why not?
The "Good" part, that's why. Perhaps a LN would act that way (depending on the laws of the land), but not LG. ESPECIALLY if the characters had any kind of amicable personal background. You know, what most people might call "friendship."
Right to trial is a modern invention of our laws.
As opposed to... the time of the campaign setting? And when is that? "Medieval times"? I've long had a maxim never to include physics, biology, chemistry, or economics in D&D settings. Now that I'm in a graduate program actually studying the middle ages, I'm adding history to the list.
Allies don't undermine your authority. Enemies do that.
Nice reasoning.
I'm not even sure I'd knock his alignment for it.
I'm sure. I would. He was clearly playing LAH (Lawful @$$ Hole).
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My mind... she is utterly blown.
A reprimand, imprisonment, even a reasoned discussion as to why the elf in question did what he did?
Nope. Kill him. That'll teach the the pointy ears to get above himself.