|
If the player's aren't forced to crash the Wyvern at the end of the "Sea Wyvern's Wake" and walk across the Island, what about HTBM are they going to miss from a plot stand point?
What items do they get or what things do they learn in HTBM that would seriously hurt them in the following adventures because they didn't wade through HTBM?
Thanks for your time in replying!
If the player's aren't forced to crash the Wyvern at the end of the "Sea Wyvern's Wake" and walk across the Island, what about HTBM are they going to miss from a plot stand point?
What items do they get or what things do they learn in HTBM that would seriously hurt them in the following adventures because they didn't wade through HTBM?
Thanks for your time in replying!
Story wise they wouldn't miss too much. It's mostly to give a feel for the Island of Dread, get a glimpse at Demogorgon's influence on the island and build more NPC relationships. You will have to get them the two extra levels and make up for the missed magic items.
Another option is to make several portions of HTBM be additional activities that they have to accomplish during the two month wait for the Crimson fleet in the next adventure. It might make the very first part of ToD a little tough but I am guessing do able.
Director of Games
|
Aside from the XP and gp the party will miss, the big reveal of this adventure is the fact that demogorgon has a presence on the Isle. This works as a bit of foreshadowing for the future modules.
It should be noted that most of the encounters are quite scavengable as locations and fights during the adventure that follows this one.
Of course.. you could just crash the boat. :)
Jason Bulmahn
HTBM Author
|
|
Thanks for the replies, guys.
HTBM makes note of the food supply situation at a few points, but doesn't go on to say what happens if there's no food, or not enough food.
Granted with Urol, there's a good chance that they'll have food, but I was curious as to what the pentaly would be for being 'starved'. Did I miss a rule in the DMG that talks about this?
Thanks again.
Thanks for the replies, guys.
HTBM makes note of the food supply situation at a few points, but doesn't go on to say what happens if there's no food, or not enough food.
Granted with Urol, there's a good chance that they'll have food, but I was curious as to what the pentaly would be for being 'starved'. Did I miss a rule in the DMG that talks about this?
Thanks again.
Rules for thirst and starvation are in the back of the DMG. Should be indexed.
As far as cutting out HTBM and not crashing the ship--besides missing out on Demogorgon foreshadowing, you miss out on the Victory Points that are available for salvaging the Wyvern. Those could be replaced by just saying another supply ship from Sasserine wrecked up there and needs salvaging, or by somehow inserting Olangru's lair into the next adventure and assigning VP for it. It might be good to do that anyway--it's easy to have Olangru stalk them and lure them into his inescapable corner of the jungle while they're getting tar from the pits or visiting the Rakasta ruins.
Of course.. you could just crash the boat. :)Jason Bulmahn
HTBM Author
Do crash the boat. HTBM is my very favoritest installment of the Adventure Path thus far hands down. This is high praise, not given lightly as every installment of Savage Tide is stellar. I even liked it better than Serpents and that is saying something, because Scuttlecove is excellent.
You will regret skipping HTBM, not because of missing intrinsic elements of the story, but because you'll be missing the best chapter in my opinion. I read this adventure like six times the first week I had this Dungeon. Don't skip it, warns I! You'll regret it!
If players have legitimate means of not crashing (items, high skill checks, etc) thats fine. Give them the victory that they deserve for their forethought and investments.
But remember, just like a high diplomacy score may make the orc helpful, that only means he'll let you escape the orc prison; it doesn't mean he'll take up arms against the other fifty orcs. A well made profession sailor check might reduce or eliminate 1 of the many "chunks" of damage the Sea Wyvern takes. It will take tremendous luck and skill to avoid ALL the potential hazards of a high strength storm that close to the isle's reefs.
And I agree with the esteemed Logue; HTBM is an excellent adventure. Do a search for threads with Olangru for some of the great ideas that others have added to the pool of nasty thing the bar-lgura does to the PCs. (Shameless plug.) There's just too much good experiences to miss. I don't mean XP, or GP, or Items, I mean the scenes that play in your PCs minds for months to come.
Just me two coppers.
|
|
Started HTBM.
Two players almost killed by the T-Rex. (They were both 1 round from death in it's stomach.)
* Amelia killed by T-Rex.
* Tavey carried off by Terror Bird and shot twice as archer fired into the grapple twice, hitting Tavey twice, killing him for sure as the thing ran off with his body.
Ouch. At least you're getting the idea that theIsle of Dread is nere walk in the park (or, jungle...)
There are a couple of encounters during HTBM and the previous module that just assume the PCs wind up stuck in some situation that they have to adventure their way out of.
If it breaks your group's conventions to do this to the group, have their ship attacked by a sea-monster that destroys or damages it, forcing them to shore. This way, the Heavy Hand of teh DM can take its usual form-- a monster, and maybe not feel so railroady.
The part that kept making me and my PCs laugh was that just before each of the unavoidable encounters (the sargasso and the shipwreck) you're supposed to ask for Naviagtion checks. To (presumably) determine the *degree* of lost you are going to get no matter what you do? :D
Waiter: What kind of soup would you like?
Customer: I choose lobster bisque.
Waiter: The soup today is creamy squash.
* Tavey carried off by Terror Bird and shot twice as archer fired into the grapple twice, hitting Tavey twice, killing him for sure as the thing ran off with his body.
That's awesome! Trying to save the kid and ends up killing him. Hopefully no one was attached to the little bugger!
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
|
Resurrect since it's looming in my game. The ship is on the rocks, holed and missing a mast - major damage in other words. The players are definitely going to do their best to repair the boat. With "Raise From The Deep" to get it in a good position, assisted by up to 80 or so Unseen Servants, a druid to supervise lumberjack work, three characters with ranks in carpentry and sailing, all sorts of mending spells and...
an overwhelming desire not to subject the surviving passengers to a trek through dino-infested jungle.
I can get very heavy handed (Emraag on patrol) or let them go by sea. Any more folk have experience of this since this thread was posted? I could also have Olangru strike early, I suppose.
Open for advice!
Resurrect since it's looming in my game. The ship is on the rocks, holed and missing a mast - major damage in other words. The players are definitely going to do their best to repair the boat. With "Raise From The Deep" to get it in a good position, assisted by up to 80 or so Unseen Servants, a druid to supervise lumberjack work, three characters with ranks in carpentry and sailing, all sorts of mending spells and...
an overwhelming desire not to subject the surviving passengers to a trek through dino-infested jungle.
I can get very heavy handed (Emraag on patrol) or let them go by sea. Any more folk have experience of this since this thread was posted? I could also have Olangru strike early, I suppose.
Open for advice!
I think Orlangru would muck up their repairs as much as possible and maybe even steal some npcs as planned and tempt the pcs into chasing into his lair. That's a good way to get the adventure going with out the gaurenteed railroad...
Resurrect since it's looming in my game. The ship is on the rocks, holed and missing a mast - major damage in other words. The players are definitely going to do their best to repair the boat. With "Raise From The Deep" to get it in a good position, assisted by up to 80 or so Unseen Servants, a druid to supervise lumberjack work, three characters with ranks in carpentry and sailing, all sorts of mending spells and...
an overwhelming desire not to subject the surviving passengers to a trek through dino-infested jungle.
I can get very heavy handed (Emraag on patrol) or let them go by sea. Any more folk have experience of this since this thread was posted? I could also have Olangru strike early, I suppose.
Open for advice!
Well, presuming the large aquatic snake monsters don't rain on their parade, Olangru, his harem and his horde of squalling brood can rain on theirs. Gargoyles can swoop in out of the sky and fling poo, among other things. Impatient NPCs could pack up and set out on foot - to be found horribly dead (or worse) at some later point. Emraag could surface to steam-blast the ship - and I believe his breath weapon works just find underwater, so he can easily finish off the Wyvern in the middle of the night. He could also do the "no tribute no passage!" bit and see if your characters are able to negotiate with him...
No, wait. There is another possibility, here.
It sounds like your players are really giving a superior effort here to fix the ship. Let ‘em, if you think their efforts warrant victory. They’re just going to come back to try this anyway while seeking “victory points.” If you think they can pull it off, let them, and later you can award the victory points retroactively.
However, to keep them hooked for HTBM, have the Big O capture an NPC a day before the repairs should be finished. Then they can send the ship on to Farshore, with the survivors, but they still have to go on an expedition to find Urol or Skald or whoever.
I mean, they’ve been railroaded enough, haven’t they? Give them a nice victory to offset it.
No, wait. There is another possibility, here.
It sounds like your players are really giving a superior effort here to fix the ship. Let ‘em, if you think their efforts warrant victory. They’re just going to come back to try this anyway while seeking “victory points.” If you think they can pull it off, let them, and later you can award the victory points retroactively.
However, to keep them hooked for HTBM, have the Big O capture an NPC a day before the repairs should be finished. Then they can send the ship on to Farshore, with the survivors, but they still have to go on an expedition to find Urol or Skald or whoever.
I mean, they’ve been railroaded enough, haven’t they? Give them a nice victory to offset it.
A good point Troy, a very good point.
A good point Troy, a very good point.
Thanks. I mean, I think. Dude, I look at your avatar and I never know whether or not to take you seriously! I mean, I can almost see it saying soto voce "Why so serious?"
A good point Troy, a very good point.Thanks. I mean, I think. Dude, I look at your avatar and I never know whether or not to take you seriously! I mean, I can almost see it saying soto voce "Why so serious?"
Well he IS Turin the MAD afterall! Besides Troy from what I've read in Turin's posts and threads he's hardcore with rules knowledge and party body count and if he says it's a good point I'm liable to believe it! (and this has nothing to the Geas I'm under to speak positively of the Dark Master so as to not trigger the permanancied Symbols of Death, Pain, and Stunning I have incurred! *lumbers off to hide*)
I agree .. but .. wouldn't kidnapping an npc be a de facto railroad as they'd be forced to go find them. The druid says he wants to get rid of his cohort (which is just begging for an Olangru snatch).
well the kidnapping would be a railroad but also not be a railroad, in the sense that if an npc gets snagged the pcs don't have to go after them.... but they probably will. This is in a sense no more railroadish as any other adventure hook. Heck even a good person may not mount up and chase after someone who a dino or something runs off with. No sense if theyre dead.... But most good people will rescue them and then it's a more proactive feeling choice. Remember in an AP or pregen adventure the key isn't to avoid the choo-choo, it's t make the ride fun and exciting to the point that no one notices the choo-choo till the station gets there.
In addition to the previous poster's reasoning, I think the perceived "railroading problem" with the beginning of HTBM centers around the Sea Wyvern being wrecked in spite of all your efforts and there's nothing you can do about it. If the PCs come up with a really good plan and succeed in floating the ship again without aid from Farshore, Troy's suggestion allows the DM to reward them for their success but still run HTBM more or less as written. The only change would be dropping one of the sidequests in the following module, which I don't think will cause any major problems, since the PCs can tally those VPs before the adventure even begins, and the DM can add a couple of random encounters during their journeys about the island to make up for lost XP.
Yep - there are times I have basically told my players some thing to the effect of " sorry guys, but the wrote it to go along the lines of PATH X - kudos for your inventiveness though! ".
Well he IS Turin the MAD afterall! Besides Troy from what I've read in Turin's posts and threads he's hardcore with rules knowledge and party body count and if he says it's a good point I'm liable to believe it! (and this has nothing to the Geas I'm under to speak positively of the Dark Master so as to not trigger the permanancied Symbols of Death, Pain, and Stunning I have incurred! *lumbers off to hide*)A good point Troy, a very good point.Thanks. I mean, I think. Dude, I look at your avatar and I never know whether or not to take you seriously! I mean, I can almost see it saying soto voce "Why so serious?"
^_^ I can too Troy, and at times I admit to not being terribly serious when I post. But yes, many a time I've posted an opinion / gripe / complaint and had it counterpointed most cogently. Oft times I'm too stubborn to give in easily, but once the 'behind the screen' logic becomes clear then I go with a less emotional decision process. Other times the in play results of a particular class feature, set of abilities or what have you just sets things in pretty firmly.
Sir Perkins has it pretty accurate - I greatly prefer to be "challenging" as the GM, with the very rare step aside to throw something on the table that basically dictates the players should RUN, right now. (Dardaptoerebus being the most recent example of the latter, but not the only one I have on standby.)
Dark Master indeed ... I had not realized that I had a cult following so soon...
With the inception of 3e, I've seen the unfortunate development of players almost universally adopting the attitude of "if we're encountering it, we can beat it". This does the game a great disservice. My players are, at this point, a savvy bunch and generally do not suffer character deaths excepting when they either get themselves outgunned - like they would have if the Arkonas had been a bit more on the ball - or far more often when they do something bone-headed.
That's why, for example, in the 2nd run-through of the wrecking of the Sea Wyvern I had Emraag the Glutton wreck the ship, bellowing "No Tribute, No Passage!" in Aquan as he toppled the ship onto the breakers rather than the scripted 'ship wrecks no matter what' approach. If they had elected to throw down with Emraag at that point - well, they probably would have been parboiled and devoured, with the survivors even worse off than before. This seems over all to be a far more acceptable 'rail road' than the far-more-arguably-avoidable weather-based shipwrecking scenario. Emraag picks up on them, gets no tribute and wrecks the ship. Gives the characters reason to throw down with him later, keeps the plot wagon going in the intended direction while feeling more organic. If the characters make a heroic effort - as pointed out by Troy - then by all means award them. Trying to track down Olangru other than by the hints he leaves behind as scripted is actually a LOT harder. He and his harem can, if motivated, literally decimate the colony of Farshore in a matter of hours, leaving the heroes alone...
A similar scene is in CotCT, where the heroes nominally interact with the rakshasa rogue 10 in his guise as the head of the Arkonas noble household. The paladin fired off his detect evil, which promptly got blasted and shut off due to the strength of the creature's evil aura. The party commenced to throw down - and got their lunch handed to them. They were most fortunate that the rakshasa was overconfident - a mistake they would be certain only happened that once when dealing with the player characters.
No, kidnapping an NPC (Which Olangru is supposed to do anyway in Fogmire) isn’t railroading. It is nudging them, but it’s by no means forcing them.
For example, the party is dungeon-crawling when they come to a fork in the cavern. Railroading is, “The passage on the right suddenly caves in.” If, instead, they hear a cry for help from the left passage, you are kind of indicating where the “fun” is, but the choice is still theirs.
Whether the characters are inclined to go on a rescue mission depends a great deal on their relationship with the NPC. Avner? Frak ‘em! Amella? She’s having the rogue’s baby! I don’t know, whatever. Of course, they still might be all “The needs of the many …” and try to see the ship safely to Farshore, putting more value on the larger crew than the one lost. I guess it depends on what kind of shepherds your party is comprised of.
No, kidnapping an NPC (Which Olangru is supposed to do anyway in Fogmire) isn’t railroading. It is nudging them, but it’s by no means forcing them.
I agree. Plot events that affect the PCs aren't necessarily railroading; railroading is when the PCs come up with a reasonable plan and the DM gives it no chance at succeeding because it isn't the "right" plan.
Similarly, if the PCs are living in Farshore, a pirate attack on Farshore isn't railroading, either.
|
My players found the spell Make Whole in the Player's Handbook and just want to repair the ship. Does the spell require a craft check for complex items (like a ship) The cleric is high enough level to cast it and repair the whole ship. I don't want them (and me) to miss the Here there be monsters installment.
Wouldn't a ship be too big for Make Whole? A Make Whole cast by a 7th level cleric would affect an object up to 70 cu. ft. (e.g. 4' x 4' x 4.5'). I don't think you can fix a big item in sections, either.
My players found the spell Make Whole in the Player's Handbook and just want to repair the ship. Does the spell require a craft check for complex items (like a ship) The cleric is high enough level to cast it and repair the whole ship. I don't want them (and me) to miss the Here there be monsters installment.Wouldn't a ship be too big for Make Whole? A Make Whole cast by a 7th level cleric would affect an object up to 70 cu. ft. (e.g. 4' x 4' x 4.5'). I don't think you can fix a big item in sections, either.
Besides, no level of Make Whole can beat a DM's Make Hole!
(Sorry, couldn't resist)
Kidnapping more than one party member, NPC or not, means less resources for the party to use in the later fight with the lemurian golem.
How do you figure? They find the kidnapping victim's equipment in area 3 or 4 and they find all the abductees hanging from a chain in the last room, just waiting to be re-outfitted and joining in the battle. If they don’t come up with some clever way to get them down and into the battle with Olangru, then they have 3 rounds before the battle with the statue starts. I had my group find their companions with 1 HP left (causing them to expend healing on them) but nothing says you have to do that. Maybe they’re at 100% and fresh for battle.
And, yes, the DM has to think on his feet. I don’t care what module or adventure path you play, the DM is expected, sometimes, to rework stuff to fit the need. There is more than one thread on this board about the traps already. Let’s give that a rest already. Lots of great options here; lots of great ideas. Feel free to research and barrow liberally.
“Introducing some dinosaurs is okay.” And any DM worth his salt can make it AWESOME. I used sound effects from Jurassic Park – the impact tremors getting closer, and I counted down the rounds while the players kind of panicked. Then the T-Rex scream fx and I put out the miniature. Battle begins. That set the tone for HTBM and my group has raved every step of the way. I’ve never been complimented so much in all my years as a GM.
The staling by Olangru – I drew heavily from Predator. “The jungle just came alive and took him!” See the thread “Olangru Creepiness” for lots of great suggestions.
Look, yes, it’s going to take some imagination. It always does. HTBM is the most fertile ground there is for good DM. If you’re not a good DM, then it doesn’t matter what chapter, module, etc. you choose – it won’t make any difference.
As I get down off my soap box … in summation: I reiterate my suggestion of HTBM to the OP.
Of course, the OP was almost two years ago, and his group never made it past HTBM. In fact, one of his players was MY DM and HE never made TO HTBM with our group. But, like I said, I took over the game for him and HTBM was the first I ran and my group's LOVING it!
So, this thread isn't really helping the OP anymore, so never mind.