I love the new concept for goblins here in Pathfinder. You've done a nice job of taking a cliche'd old monster and made them fresh and even a little fun, vicious lil pyromaniacs that they are.
So now that Paizo's not chained to WotC's intellectual property, how about giving the same treatment to some other monsters?
I'm suggesting trolls to start with. I'm quite tired of the old 1st edition AD&D version of trolls - "thin, rubbery, and loathsome". And for heaven's sake, I know they regenerate, but here in 3rd Edition, with that goofy nose drooping down past their chin, they'd be biting it off every time they eat. I'd like to see trolls put back in their Norse mythology place as big, strong, and scary, similar to what we saw in the LotR movies. Or heck - turn the whole troll concept on its head and give them a civilization. Or something like that.
I see this a great opportunity to get really creative and break out of some of the stale old stereotypes that D&D as perpetuated now for 30 years.
So how about it? Anyone have any other ideas for other monsters they'd like to see re-imagined like Paizo's done with goblins? Post 'em up here!
i did this once made em more orger like in there look and more oec like in there actions.had em collect skulls and keep em to show there skill in battle they also tened to act in hunting parties and raised goats . they worshipped the moon as a godess shil'doess and feared the full sun as the god of death senikess they used battle axes made of iron but never armor ..didnt need it really. they raided villiages for food and blood for there goddess .. my playes hated going any where near the drogem mountians
In D&D Trolls are very popular. There are a fair number of versions of Trolls and this has been the case in the prvious editions of the game. I suspect that they wrok extremly well mechanistically. Their siginiture ability is an exciting thing to pit lower level parties against and they make excellent mooks even into the higher levels.
When considering new versions or stylistic changes to monsters, and certianly trolls, I'd like the background material to support how they are actually used. So a Troll is more then just a singular species of creature but more accuratly (in all probability) the most common example of what ammounts to a diverse familiy of creatures sutable as opposition to your players from 3rd-12th+ level. In effect I want my background material to reflect whats actually going to start taking place at the table and not something thought of in isolation of that.
There is a thread about this sort of thing.
What Sorts of Monsters.
There is a thread about this sort of thing.
What Sorts of Monsters.
My impression of that thread was that folks were asking Paizo what kind of new monsters they'd like as submissions, and throwing around ideas for those new monsters. What I was wondering was how would people like to see old, regular D&D monsters re-imagined. Not with new stats, just visualized differently (as the goblins were by Wayne Reynolds) or with a different flavor or background.
One thing I would be interested in seeing (as this is how I do it in my game) are native american style orcs. I realy like the concept of them being savage, and barbaric by most standards, but having a complex system of honor and an actual culture (something I think most humanoids in D&D are seriously lacking).
One thing I would be interested in seeing (as this is how I do it in my game) are native american style orcs. I realy like the concept of them being savage, and barbaric by most standards, but having a complex system of honor and an actual culture (something I think most humanoids in D&D are seriously lacking).
While I wouldn't object to SOME race filling this role (Olman-type, but not necessarily human), I wouldn't want to be orcs. Blizzard already did this one, and I think it makes orcs less Orky.
I do agree that humanoid races need better cultures in D&D, but juding by the new Goblins, Paizo has that well in hand.
Considering that giving virtually all humanoids a real culture, as opposed to the indistinquishable mass of bitter cave-dwelling nasties that typical D&D uses, I am positively elated at the direction they've gone with goblins, and kobolds to boot!
LotR (the movie) trolls would be sweet. The war trolls encountered at Minas Tirith seem to match was was discussed above. Once trolls start seeping into your game, they're going to be around for the long haul because of their versatility. Actually depecting them as the "tanks" (and/or bodyguards for BBEGs) employed by fantasy armies is awesome, in my opinion. I also agree that they need an appearance overhaul to make them look less "spiteful" and more "Holy Gods, it's a troll, run!"
I'd love to see manticores re-imagined. I've always found them to be one of the most boring monsters in the game.
Blizzard did native american style orcs? Is this a warcraft thing? (last Blizzard game I played was Warcraft 2)
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I wouldn't say so. It's the Tauren which are obviously designed with native american culture in mind. What makes the WoW-Orcs "unorkish" is that they are a lot more civilized as we are used to.
I like it since i cannot stand those black-and-white points of view. The sad thing is that orcs aren't funny anymore (as they were in Warcraft I and II). But from a cultural point of view I find them quite interesting.
What I liked about the goblins is that they were still obviously goblins as D&D describes them, but much more "deep," with clear roleplaying hooks. I would like to see the same with trolls, for example, but remaking them to be more like LOTR trolls wouldn't add depth to a D&D troll, it would rename some other monster a troll, at least in my opinion.
To keep up with the goblin theme, you would need to find some aspects of Troll culture to exploit as a roleplaying hook, while still having them occupy a similar "niche." Maybe come up with a reason why many trolls are encountered alone, thus making up a reason within the culture for why they are exiled. Come up with some kooky myth they have about why they don't like fire. Play up the 2e concept that Troll culture is matriarcal . . . things like that.
What I liked about the goblins is that they were still obviously goblins as D&D describes them, but much more "deep," with clear roleplaying hooks. I would like to see the same with trolls, for example, but remaking them to be more like LOTR trolls wouldn't add depth to a D&D troll, it would rename some other monster a troll, at least in my opinion.
To keep up with the goblin theme, you would need to find some aspects of Troll culture to exploit as a roleplaying hook, while still having them occupy a similar "niche." Maybe come up with a reason why many trolls are encountered alone, thus making up a reason within the culture for why they are exiled. Come up with some kooky myth they have about why they don't like fire. Play up the 2e concept that Troll culture is matriarcal . . . things like that.
Totally. I could not agree with you more. Granted people are excited about the ideas of reimagining D&D and creativity tends not to always color within the lines--but really the strength of the new setting is how it sticks very close to the classic ideas but while adding tons of depth and color (the goblins being the main example of this, the kobolds seemed a bit flat--but with good potential). Hopefully they push this and don't just start making everything weird. There's a place for that kind of setting, don't get me wrong, but I don't see Pathfinder lasting very long if they try to trek that road.
Creative Director
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The goblins are a great example of how far we'll be going with reimagining monsters. Check out the illustration of the ghouls lowering lunch into their well to see how for some monsters, they won't end up looking TOO dissimilar from the D&D version.
The trick is to keep the monsters in their niche and keep them the same monsters people have grown to love over the past 3 decades, but to make them our own in some way at the same time since we can't really use Wizards of the Coast's art as hard reference.
I think that the re-imagination of cultures would be a nice change of pace. Something fluffy in the world of crunch makes the D&D experience that much more fun. It's what made the "races of" books somewhat more useful (although I have strong reservations about a few of the races, I think the idea to expand upon the races is marvelous).
As to my picks:
Duergar. I think the "ecology of" article in Dragon 325 was a great start. I'd love to see more. (are they OGL? haven't got my SRD handy).
Derro, Ogres, and Dragons. Every D&D world has dragons of one sort or another, making the world that much richer by providing a draconic culture might be interesting, even if not all parts of the society are shown, just "overreaching" examples of draconic interaction. Ogres & Derro have always had the "short end of the stick" so to speak, culture wise. I tend to have a much deeper feeling for ogrish culture, not so much a Warcraft-culture, but more... something. Derro have always survived by insanity... HOW???
See, that's a small start. I think we'd all benefit from further investigation.
One thing I would be interested in seeing (as this is how I do it in my game) are native american style orcs. I realy like the concept of them being savage, and barbaric by most standards, but having a complex system of honor and an actual culture (something I think most humanoids in D&D are seriously lacking).
I think hobgoblins might be able to fill this role. The Tome of Battle/Book of Nine Swords gives them credit for developing some of the skills with blades.
What would be nice is to take monsters that are oft neglected and breathe some life into them. I really don't want to see some common, heavily stereotyped monster given a Joan Rivers facelift where I can't even recognize it. I'm still recovering from the transmutation of Kobolds from "evil dog-like men" to reptilian.
How about a Paizo spin on lycanthropes? I found that movie with the Werewolves vs. vampire theme pretty interesting. Nice look into their ecologies.
I'd like to see a revision of elves. Although not technically monsters, I've always thought elves could be a lot more then they are described in the PHB.
I'd like to see a revision of elves. Although not technically monsters, I've always thought elves could be a lot more then they are described in the PHB.
Can't agree more! From hints dropped elsewhere, I'm looking forward to seeing what is done with elves and gnomes.
I've always kind of liked Runequest's Aldryami (elves), especially the Poisonthorn Elves of Dorastor. Nasty!
Have to agree that I like what was done with Goblins and am looking forward to creative uses of may races -- Drow (OGL, I believe), Orcs, Hobgoblins, Giants etc ...
Agreement here, too. Awesome take on the goblins. That includes both Wayne's artistry as well as the descriptive fluff from the design team. Please do more of this with the other standard humanoids...
My two-cents,
--Neil
It might not seem significant at the start, but sometimes bringing in names from the older editions brings a new flavor to the game (vis-a-vis daemon/yugoloth mentioned in another thread). I'd like to see the word "demi-human" being thrown about in Common to refer to the other humanoid races. That has such a 2e feel to it, using it in the current edition somehow jolts me a bit.
Re: Manticores - the classic ones were wingless. Gorgons/medusae - the Grecian versions were winged, and IIRC the original Manual of the Planes mentioned that the Outer Plane variety was in fact different from the Material Plane one, ditto for titans. Chimera - the famous Etruscan bronze sculpture had a lion's head in front, a goat's head rising from the back, and a snake's head at the end of the tail.
It might not seem significant at the start, but sometimes bringing in names from the older editions brings a new flavor to the game (vis-a-vis daemon/yugoloth mentioned in another thread). I'd like to see the word "demi-human" being thrown about in Common to refer to the other humanoid races. That has such a 2e feel to it, using it in the current edition somehow jolts me a bit.
Re: Manticores - the classic ones were wingless. Gorgons/medusae - the Grecian versions were winged, and IIRC the original Manual of the Planes mentioned that the Outer Plane variety was in fact different from the Material Plane one, ditto for titans. Chimera - the famous Etruscan bronze sculpture had a lion's head in front, a goat's head rising from the back, and a snake's head at the end of the tail.
Keep in mind, though, the previously expressed intent to stay true to the Monster Manual versions. The changes thus far have all been fluff and not crunch.
The classic chimera would be an interesting variation.
here's a question regarding monster art... if "copying" from current WotC sources is a bad idea, how about using older 1E/2E sources as references? obviously, a straight copy there wouldn't work either, but a blending of features in a non-copyright-breaking sort of way might be cool.
i know when i submitted conversions to Dragon, i tried to include as many such illustration references as I had available, which usually turned out pretty cool. :)