It seems for quite a few skills the DM rolls secretly (Disguise, Disable Device... etc.)
So in what cases to you do this if at all? I can see it for a spot, listen, or survival in some cases, but disguise and disable device? It seems like you're taking the PC's actions out of the PC's hands. If someone gets hot and you roll a 4 for his Disable Device check, well that just seems silly.
React to me!
I would do it for things that aren't immediately obvious as successes or failures. Opposed rolls should be done by the players, with the DMs rolls secret, of course. Disguise and Disable Device I can see as being rolled behind the screen, since it may not be apparrent to the player that their disguise sucks or that they missed part of the trap. I can understand doing that for a more immersive experience. It's still the players that decide on using the skill to begin with; the DM has to describe what happens either way. But it is more for the DM to remember and keep up with.
I'm with James - the point of the DM making the roll is so that the players don't know that their disguise has absolutely no chance of succsess before they try and sneak past the Queens Guards.
I do however find that the only thing I usually make the players give me prior to a session is their spot and listen checks. While I make the Disguise check for them they can tell me what their skill is when they dawn the disguise - they obvously know that their using this skill.
It seems for quite a few skills the DM rolls secretly (Disguise, Disable Device... etc.)
So in what cases to you do this if at all? I can see it for a spot, listen, or survival in some cases, but disguise and disable device? It seems like you're taking the PC's actions out of the PC's hands. If someone gets hot and you roll a 4 for his Disable Device check, well that just seems silly.
React to me!
It's a tricky one to be sure.
I dislike rolling alot of rolls behind the screen but in a lot of cases its needed.
i find players are less likely to metagame if you roll behind the screen than if they roll and roll poorly!
If the checks don't really have too much relevance then i'll let the players roll away.
Things I tend to roll are
Disable Device
Hide
Move Silently
Disguise
A lot of the social skills we semi-rp through anyway, but in some cases gather info, bluff, diplomacy etc will eb rolled by me.
Certain situations also require spot and listen rolls from me so as not to give the game away! Same with the occasional saving throw.
My players like it this way as it adds suspense and extra tenseness to the whole affair!
But I'd say goes with what you and the players are comfortable with, talk it out if people have issues and come to a nice decent compromise!
It seems for quite a few skills the DM rolls secretly (Disguise, Disable Device... etc.)
So in what cases to you do this if at all? I can see it for a spot, listen, or survival in some cases, but disguise and disable device? It seems like you're taking the PC's actions out of the PC's hands. If someone gets hot and you roll a 4 for his Disable Device check, well that just seems silly.
React to me!
Heck no!! You can't let them roll their own disable device tests or you take the surprise from it. If you do it secretly, they won't know for sure if the rogues disabled the trap, and if someone gets hurt it's fun to see everyone cursing the rogue. : )
I'm going to disagree with some people here. Since Disguise is an opposed roll why not let the player make it himself? He or she won't know what someone else's die roll is or ranks in Spot is. As for disable device, why wouldn't the rogue know the trap he has located is disabled or not? Indeed, how could he disable the trap in the first place if he didn't know what its supposed to look like once disabled? For example; the PC needs to deface a small rune for the magic trap to stop functioning? If he fails to disarm it doesn't he know just by looking at the rune that it's still there? The same goes with a mechanical trap that he needs to disable. If the traps disabled once the steel wires have been cut, doesn't he know whether he has succeeded in disabling the trap or not just by looking at the wires? In my book, if he fails to disable a trap it means that he hasn't found the means to disable it. And because he hasn't found the means to disable it he knows that the traps not disabled.
I generally make skill checks for PCs when the PHB specifically states that this should be the case or if the skill can be used passively. Listen and Spot can be rolled by the DM passively as a free action or can be made by players as a move action (if they are actively spotting and listening).
I'm going to disagree with some people here. Since Disguise is an opposed roll why not let the player make it himself? He or she won't know what someone else's die roll is or ranks in Spot is. As for disable device, why wouldn't the rogue know the trap he has located is disabled or not? Indeed, how could he disable the trap in the first place if he didn't know what its supposed to look like once disabled? For example; the PC needs to deface a small rune for the magic trap to stop functioning? If he fails to disarm it doesn't he know just by looking at the rune that it's still there? The same goes with a mechanical trap that he needs to disable. If the traps disabled once the steel wires have been cut, doesn't he know whether he has succeeded in disabling the trap or not just by looking at the wires? In my book, if he fails to disable a trap it means that he hasn't found the means to disable it. And because he hasn't found the means to disable it he knows that the traps not disabled.
I generally make skill checks for PCs when the PHB specifically states that this should be the case or if the skill can be used passively. Listen and Spot can be rolled by the DM passively as a free action or can be made by players as a move action (if they are actively spotting and listening).
I'm with Phil on this one. I pretty much have my players roll everything. The only time I roll for them is for passive Spot and Listen checks. I have enough rolls and things to keep track of and my players know not to abuse this. As a player I personally like having the fate of my character in my own hands for good or bad.
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It seems for quite a few skills the DM rolls secretly (Disguise, Disable Device... etc.)
So in what cases to you do this if at all? I can see it for a spot, listen, or survival in some cases, but disguise and disable device? It seems like you're taking the PC's actions out of the PC's hands. If someone gets hot and you roll a 4 for his Disable Device check, well that just seems silly.
React to me!
Whenever I don't want the character to know if he succeeded or not. If they're into "rolling all their stuff," maybe let them roll it in a cup and you the dungeonmaster look. Then maybe make them do this every once in a while just for the heck of it, so they don't know to expect something or not.
My 2 cents......I let my players roll almost everything. ...I just don't tell them the DC they are rolling against. So for example if they are moving silently or disguised and they roll a 14, they may feel safe and secure behind it. Little do they know the guards can see right through their attempts.
I'm mainly in Phil's camp. Opposed rolls can be rolled by the players without giving anything away, since they have no idea about the rolls and modifiers of someone else. Afterall, if you're trying to Move Silently and step on a twig, you know you goofed, but that doesn't mean you're automatically detected.
I do roll Spot and Listen for random encounters, because just about everyone hates taking the time to do it themselves. I just roll until the results are conclusive, and then use that to determine the opening sequence in said encounters.
I keep a stat sheet in front of me with most of the PC's "reactionary" abilities, like AC and saves and certain skills that are likely to need to be rolled by me to preserve their ignorance (strange concept?), so that I don't have to ask them and give away information. But it's a pretty small chart. It only contains the essentials that I may want to use without them knowing. Everything else I just ask for their modifiers as it comes up if I'm making the roll for some reason.
Just about the only thing that I roll on my own as the DM all the time is Search, since the party wouldn't know whether they succeeded or failed automatically. Otherwise, it's case by case, and I end up doing a lot of Listen and Spot, but beyond that, the players typically get to roll it themselves.
I know when I'm playing NWN/NWN2 and I see the computer rolling badly and causing me to fail, I do feel cheated somehow, as if the result would have been different had I rolled those imaginary dice, and I imagine the players feel the same way in tabletop D&D.
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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In my games, the ONLY things the players roll are Hit Dice and stats. Everything else is done behind the screen by yours truly. In a combat scenario, I take all the actions into account, roll the dice, do the math, and narrate the entire combat in descriptive form (usually accompanied by a fair amount of actually ACTING OUT the motions of the combatants). Then, as a recap, I tell everyone the damage they dealt and received.
I've had one too many players cheat openly on dice rolls, so I took that control away from them. Admittedly, none of my current players are known cheaters, but keeping the dice out of their hands seems to force them into the roleplaying mindset more frequently and they're completely fine with it.
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In my games, the ONLY things the players roll are Hit Dice and stats. Everything else is done behind the screen by yours truly. In a combat scenario, I take all the actions into account, roll the dice, do the math, and narrate the entire combat in descriptive form (usually accompanied by a fair amount of actually ACTING OUT the motions of the combatants). Then, as a recap, I tell everyone the damage they dealt and received.
I've had one too many players cheat openly on dice rolls, so I took that control away from them. Admittedly, none of my current players are known cheaters, but keeping the dice out of their hands seems to force them into the roleplaying mindset more frequently and they're completely fine with it.
My gut reaction to your post was "UGH, that's just not right." But the more I think about it, the more I think that really would encourage me to stay more in role. I'm not sold on it, but it's interesting.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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My gut reaction to your post was "UGH, that's just not right." But the more I think about it, the more I think that really would encourage me to stay more in role. I'm not sold on it, but it's interesting.
The best way to know is to give it a try. I know its not for everyone, believe me. The last group I gamed with (the one with the cheater) was COMPLETELY FANATIC about rolling their own dice. Not only that, but it had to be THEIR OWN dice, not anyone else's. And god forbid you ask to borrow some of their d6s for a fireball because you only brought 4. You'd be told to just "roll yours twice."
IMO, that's just puerile and it destroyed the experience for me. I gave up trying to run games for them, took 2 of the players who weren't like that, and started my own game up with a few of my friends who COULD be trusted to behave like adults. Taking away the dice was my first rule and I heard no complaints (especially since the 2 players I brought over knew exactly why I was doing it).
FWIW, I'm not saying that all people who want to roll their own dice are puerile. I think its a perfectly acceptable custom and, when I'm not the DM, I don't care if the DM lets us roll our own or not. I'm fine either way. This is just how it is when I'm the one running the game.
My gut reaction to your post was "UGH, that's just not right." But the more I think about it, the more I think that really would encourage me to stay more in role. I'm not sold on it, but it's interesting.The best way to know is to give it a try. I know its not for everyone, believe me. The last group I gamed with (the one with the cheater) was COMPLETELY FANATIC about rolling their own dice. Not only that, but it had to be THEIR OWN dice, not anyone else's. And god forbid you ask to borrow some of their d6s for a fireball because you only brought 4. You'd be told to just "roll yours twice."
IMO, that's just puerile and it destroyed the experience for me. I gave up trying to run games for them, took 2 of the players who weren't like that, and started my own game up with a few of my friends who COULD be trusted to behave like adults. Taking away the dice was my first rule and I heard no complaints (especially since the 2 players I brought over knew exactly why I was doing it).
FWIW, I'm not saying that all people who want to roll their own dice are puerile. I think its a perfectly acceptable custom and, when I'm not the DM, I don't care if the DM lets us roll our own or not. I'm fine either way. This is just how it is when I'm the one running the game.
It makes sense...
"Roll yours twice" Wow.
We just roll the dice openly and trust the players to roleplay appropriately. That impedes a lot of "keep retrying", since we're on our honor... and, really, tripping traps every now and again makes the world feel a little more dangerous without killing many.
On the other hand, those kill on sight Symbols of Death...
For Spot and Listen checks, turn the player skills into static target numbers for the NPCs to roll against. (Example: if a PC has Spot +6, the target for NPC's Hide check is 16. Assume the rest of the party is passively aiding another, just by being awake to spot...)
What if you are in a situation that seems normal but there is some kind of underlying magical effect so the PCs have to make Will saves and you don't want them to know that there is something for them to make a Will save against? Do you roll in secret? I've had the DM roll things like attack rolls before and it bothers me a little so should I do the same when it is important to the storyline for them tomake a save against something without knowing it. Advice would be appreciated.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32
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What if you are in a situation that seems normal but there is some kind of underlying magical effect so the PCs have to make Will saves and you don't want them to know that there is something for them to make a Will save against? Do you roll in secret?
The best way to do this is to make "secret" rolls all the time, whether there's something relevant or not. These false alarms will put the players on their toes the first few times but eventually they will become numb to it and that's when they'll never know when the rolls matter or not.
What if you are in a situation that seems normal but there is some kind of underlying magical effect so the PCs have to make Will saves and you don't want them to know that there is something for them to make a Will save against? Do you roll in secret?The best way to do this is to make "secret" rolls all the time, whether there's something relevant or not. These false alarms will put the players on their toes the first few times but eventually they will become numb to it and that's when they'll never know when the rolls matter or not.
My current DM does this all the time. I guess that's what he's doing... rolling all type of checks as we RP through encounters and things...
I'm going to start a campaign of my own soon... I'm getting a feel of where I'm going to roll for things and when not to.
The bottom line I suppose is "is everyone having fun?"
If so then you are in good shape, no matter who rolls the dice. I find myself leaning towards the Fatespinner side of the spectrum, as even with opposed checks, when you roll a 2, its hard not to metagame. I roll as many dice in secret as I can keep track of. Also Will saves are a big one. It's impossible to DM a good illusion after you have asked the whole table for will saves. Especially in 3.whatever--players are savvy.
A compromise my be to have players pre-roll 10 will saves. The the DM can number the saves and roll a d10 to decide which save to use. Once the save is "used" you can cross it out.
thats my two d10
I allow my players to make most rolls. For us, it's allways added some drama to the game. You rolling to keep your character alive against the monster's gaze attack... I love the fearful or nervous looks. To eliminate metagaming I do secret rolls for passive checks. When they would not know if they suceeded or not, including passive checks (spot, listen and some will saves against illusions) there is a secret roll.
For my group this balance keeps the mystery, adds to the roleplay, and leaves the players feeling their character's fate truly is in their hands.
Making superfluous rolls in secret, which actually don't do anything, is a great tactic to remind the party that they can't try to second guess you and just have to trust you as their DM. I do it all the time. It helps reduce metagaming, too.
I would never roll an attack roll for a player (unless they abdicated that to me because they didn't want to, such as with a confused newbie just learning the game). That is an active decision on their part. I would only really feel comfortable making passive rolls whose success or failure may not be immediately apparent, or the players' knowing about these rolls would hurt the impending sequence of events (such as asking for Will saves before an illusory ogre appears and throws a rock at them).
mostly for hide, spot, listen, or anything else that the character wouldnt know or have any feedback on the outcome. Take spot for instace; characters roll spot as long as they are looking for something or such; but I roll as the gm if they might happen to notice something that happened when they were otherwise engaged in activity. Having them roll would only alert them to activity they even if they didn't notice it; stuff like this always changes peoples attitudes and character actions; so I roll them in secret; after all; you as a player have no idea how well you are hidden and if someone can percieve you.
Also, I have players roll superflous dice just to keep em guessing so they focus on roleplaying rather than second guessing whenever I roll a die; I roll a lot of meaningless dice also.
Before each game session, I have the players make a number of d20 rolls. I write the results down on a notepad, and when I need a Spot or Listen check that I don't want the players to be aware of, I work my way down the list.
The rolls are the players', so they can't complain about my dice or my bad rolling.
My 2 cents......I let my players roll almost everything. ...I just don't tell them the DC they are rolling against. So for example if they are moving silently or disguised and they roll a 14, they may feel safe and secure behind it. Little do they know the guards can see right through their attempts.
Same here, never tell the PCs the DCs for anything, be it monsters' saving throws or checks. Never do it, don't think I ever will.
The problem with letting the PC's roll is that they can often figure out the DC, or at least the general range.
For example, if they roll a 2 and the attempt fails, they know immediately that it failed not because it's a particularly difficult task, but because they rolled a 2. So they'll be eager to try again hoping for a better roll. Conversely, if they roll a 19 and fail, they'll almost surely give up on attempting again because they know immediately that it's an extremely difficult task.
My general guideline for when to roll on their behalf comes down to two questions:
1) Would the character know, immediately after making the attempt, whether she succeeded in her check? If No, then DEFINATELY roll for them. If Yes, then go to question 2.
2) Do I want the PLAYER to know whether the task at hand is particularly difficult or easy? If No, then roll for them. If yes, then they can roll it themselves.
Some other things that may impact your decision are things like flow of gameplay and your degree of automation. For example, if things are really moving smoothly along, you might not want to stop to have someone hand you their character sheet so you can look up an appropriate modifier and make a roll secretly. On the other hand, my game is extremely automated since I use applications like DM Genie to keep everyone's character sheet on a laptop. With a couple mouse clicks, I can roll a Search check (or any other kind of check) for everyone in the party and see all their results tallied on a single page. So I tend to roll a lot of the groups skill checks and other things where the answer to question 1 is No.
And ironically, I tend to do all my combat rolls out in the open with physical dice instead of rolling electronically on my laptop. I want the group to KNOW when the BBIT (big, bad, icky thing) rolls a 2 and hits them. I don't give myself the luxury of fudging rolls like that. I think it adds a level of tension to the fights if they know, without question, that their lives are in their own hands and I will not be bailing them out with a fudged roll. It makes living through a fight all the more precious.
Shannon
I played in a game once in the 80's that was very different; you made up your character at 1st level; then that was it; you just did things in the game; you had no idea how many hps you had; what level you were or anything like that; you just did stuff. Was very different and very cool once you got used to it; the game was all about roleplaying and the story; I played a half elf ranger and another guy in in our unit played a halfling rouge; he got in a beef with the party; I stuck up for him; we left the group; he made a trap and blew up half the dungeon; we got trapped down there and played something like going through the mines of moridor, he called it Midas Ithle or some such spelling, was very cool; one of the best and most memerable games i ever played and never knew what my stats; hps; skill abilities are anythign was; just played the game and roled the dice and could either do it or not; great fun; (big shoutout to Neff and Quinones ((darn cant spell your name) where ever you are). That game is the best excuse or reason for secret dm checks by a gamemaster that i have ever participated in.
I agree 100% with ArchAnjel. I secretly roll skill checks for my players without compunction. If someone were to object that they felt it takes their fate out of their own hands, I'd allow them to make the roll, but not see the result. (That, of course, adds more "work" to the game, but if it made the player feel better, I'd endure it.) On the other hand, I make all combat rolls out in the open, so my players will know that I don't fudge them.
Before each game session, I have the players make a number of d20 rolls. I write the results down on a notepad, and when I need a Spot or Listen check that I don't want the players to be aware of, I work my way down the list.
The rolls are the players', so they can't complain about my dice or my bad rolling.
I seem to remember saying somewhere on these forums a long time back that I do this very same thing.
I use laminated initiative cards that has each PCs' info on it. I have my players make about ten d20 rolls and write them on the back of one of the cards (they don't know who's card it is). If I need to determine Spot, Listen, Use Rope, Search, Disable Device, etc. checks at crucial moments that the PCs shouldn't know about, I use those rolls, crossing them off from top to bottom as I go.Most players are just not that great at separating player knowledge from character knowledge, so I just remove the matter altogether and it's not ever an issue.
Coming from an older mindset (having started gaming in the mid 70's) I can attest to the fact that Fatespinner's method was actually the intended method of the original designers...you know... those guys...Gygaxx and Arneson? Even the original stat rolls weren't rolled by the players. Everything was all rolled by the DM. The players never even saw the character sheets!! That's why they called it role-playing, and why I use the players-are-actors and DM-is-director analony so much. The players were to play rolls as characters out of a favorit book or movie, or roll their own as they saw fit. ALL the mechanics monkeys rested firmly on the DM's back.
Time has changed this to a quaint convention from the dark ages, like leaching someone with anemia or sacrificing virgins to volcanos. I think the most pressing reason has been speed of game play. The ineraction gaps between DM and players got to be a little frustrating for players waiting for the DM to make all those rolls before they found out what happened. As the intesity of detail grew over the years (more modules, more game worlds, more magic nifties with more options than a +35 Swiss Army Knife, those mechanics monkeys became so heavy that DM's began shuffling some of them off on the players just to get a breather. Over time it's become the norm.
Try going back to the original concept and do it Fatespinner's way for a while. If you decide you don't like it, you don't have to keep doing it. But at least you'll experience one of the game facets that helped make it what it is today.