metagame |
I'm helping my friend create a new character, and he wants to play a blaster with the draconic bloodline. At first I was thinking Magical Lineage would be a good trait for him to pick up, but then I read the following in the Core Rulebook: "Because the sorcerer or bard has not prepared the spell in a metamagic form in advance, he must apply the metamagic feat on the spot. Therefore, such a character must also take more time to cast a metamagic spell (one enhanced by a metamagic feat) than he does to cast a regular spell. If the spell’s normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full- round action for a sorcerer or bard." (p. 113) So do metamagic feats other than Quicken Spell suck for sorcerers? What do you think?
Xethik |
Errhh, not really. That move action is not the end of the world. In my opinion, Sorcs have better metamagic than Wizards due to the ability to apply them on the fly and when you need them.
They only come into play a higher levels, though, where your range becomes immense anyways. Piercing spell is amazing for Sorcs, meh for Wizards, for example.
ZZTRaider |
Not at all.
A Wizard and Sorcerer get hit with a Silence spell. They both have Silent Spell, so they can cast spells even in the Silence effect. Who fares better?
Chances are the Wizard didn't prepare many (if any) spells with the Silent metamagic, unless he knew to expect it. His best bet is to get out of the area, but that might be difficult if the target is a Fighter that's going to follow him.
The Sorcerer can cast whatever she wants, she just needs to spend a full round action to do it. It doesn't matter whether she knew it was coming or not, she just adapts as needed. If the Fighter is chasing her, losing those move actions will hurt, but there's a good chance she'll know some spell to help her get away.
Spontaneous metamagic isn't bad compared to prepared metamagic, it's just different. In some ways it's more flexible, in others it isn't.
Psion-Psycho |
Yes and no. Yes because of the increased cast time and no depending on the meta feat and bloodline. If you go check out the Arcane bloodline you will see why meta feats are not bad for sorcerers. Certain meta feats are nice like quicken as you stated, which does not increase the cast time even if you tack on other meta feats to the spell.
Lord Pendragon |
What they said. It just means you can't move more than 5ft. that round. It's a penalty, but not a deal-breaker.
The ability to apply metamagics on the fly makes several situational metamagics far, far better for the spontaneous caster. He doesn't have to pay the extra spell slot for silent or stilled (or both) metamagic unless he needs them. And he'll always have them when he needs them. Elemental Spell is another prime example. The spontaneous caster will never need to guess whether or not he's going to come up against a foe that's immune to his chosen energy type. Because when he does, he can instantly choose to change all his usual fire spells into acid. The prepared caster is SOL.
Now, for metamagics that you're going to want to use often or always, like intensify, empower, maximize, then yes the wizard gets the advantage. He's likely either going to want his fireball maximized or not, and when he casts his maximized fireball he can still move, unlike the sorcerer. It's an advantage, but again, it's not a deal-breaker. It doesn't make these useless for the spontaneous caster, just slightly less convenient than for the prepared caster.
StreamOfTheSky |
Metamagic is better for Sorc than a Wizard. Wizard has to plan in advance to spend that higher level slot for the metamagic effect he may not even need*; you can choose to or not on the fly. Much more versatile.
*Major, MAJOR exception for long duration buff spells with Extend Spell; the Wizard will know for sure he's going to be making use of those that day.
Marthkus |
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Metamagic is better for Sorc than a Wizard. Wizard has to plan in advance to spend that higher level slot for the metamagic effect he may not even need*; you can choose to or not on the fly. Much more versatile.
Major, MAJOR exception for long duration buff spells with Extend Spell; the Wizard will know for sure he's going to be making use of those that day.
My universalist wizard does not understand this idea of not having spontaneous meta magic.
Quandary |
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I think you confused full-round with 1-round action. That happened to me when I first looked at sorcerers in 3.5. Common mistake.
I also think this is the OP's issue. 1-round is harsh, although it doesn't seem to get in the way of people's opinion of Summon spells for Sorcerors/Wizards/Clerics/Druids, or of Enlarge Person, and similar 1 round spells. But Full-Round =/= 1 Round, it's just a Standard+Move Action, and last time I checked Sorcerors aren't commonly found Full-Attacking or Charging which are about the only other uses for a Full-Round Action besides Withdrawing. So you're giving up a Move Action...
Sometimes it's convenient to be able to Move or whatnot, but it's not the harshest penalty in the world vs. being able to get just right the effect with the right combo of spell+metamagic, you still can 5' step just the same. Certainly there's some scenarios where a prepared Wizard metamagic spell is better than the Sorceror version, but they don't come close to out-numbering the cases where the Sorceror version is more useful. Although I would say that it doesn't make much sense to me why Sorcerors can't use Metamagic RODS the exact same as Wizards can, but that's not really the core mechanic being discussed here.Lord Fyre RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 |
Full-round actions are not the end of the world. Being able to apply meta-magic on the fly is awesome.
It is also what saves the Universalist Wizard from being completely sub-par. (see their Metamagic Mastery ability.)
See also ...
StreamOfTheSky wrote:My universalist wizard does not understand this idea of not having spontaneous meta magic.Metamagic is better for Sorc than a Wizard. Wizard has to plan in advance to spend that higher level slot for the metamagic effect he may not even need*; you can choose to or not on the fly. Much more versatile.
Major, MAJOR exception for long duration buff spells with Extend Spell; the Wizard will know for sure he's going to be making use of those that day.
strayshift |
Full-round actions are not the end of the world. Being able to apply meta-magic on the fly is awesome.
This sums it up for me and I would add the opening up of higher spell slots should you wish to spam a spell can get a party out of a big hole I have a sorcerer who could cast fireball/lightening bolt or a variant of more than 30 times not to mention Fly and lower level spells like invisibility a huge number of times. So an epic scale fight becomes doable for a Sorcerer long after the Wizard is a spectator with tricks.
Oh and lack of a move action has never killed me yet.
Quandary |
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BTW, my personal house-rule is all casters get Heighten Spell Metamagic Feat for free.
(that is a pre-req for some Feats and PrCs, you might like to create another pre-req to keep the relative balance re: Feat/PrC entry)
It just seems ridiculous and not in the interest of balance to say that blowing higher level slots on lower level spells
should't gain the minimum benefits of being a spell slot of that level, namely DC and vulnerability to Globe of Invulnerability, etc.
Heighten is basically the weakest MM in the game, there is no argument that a Heightened spell really competes with spells actually of that level, so I don't see anything wrong with giving the Feat out for free. That does tend to help out Sorcerors, since it lets them parlay their limited spells known into a broader array of effects with DCs appropriate to the situation. Of course, they are using Full-Round actions to do so. And if a Wizard wants to prepare a Heightened version of a lower spell, they can have fun doing so. Without this, dedicating the Feat for Heighten is just ridiculous unless it's pure Feat Tax for qualifying for something else. It's seemed to turn out fine in games I've used it in.
Quandary |
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Some very good points here for a noob like myself. Thanks!
Also compare to melee/mundane combatants: they NEED full attacks to maintain relevancy for their level, if they just stick with standard action attacks there is no way to stay on par. Now casters for the most part don't need to do so (bar summons), but since the move action doesn't ROUTINELY have some crucial importance, it's not that big of a deal for sorcerors to give it up. Although sometimes you need a move action to maintain favorable position (vs. just a 5' step which is still possible with a full-round, and which is usually preferrable since it doesn't provoke AoEs like a move action does), it's quite simply less important for sorcerors than melee or even ranged mundane combatants who NEED to be in melee range in order to do anything or are strongly penalized if they don't have clear line of sight/are firing thru Cover. Most spells don't depend on attack rolls to begin with, certainly not if you ignore Cure and Buff touch spells (which don't need to make attack rolls vs. willing targets).
Bill Dunn |
What they said. It just means you can't move more than 5ft. that round. It's a penalty, but not a deal-breaker.
To put some of this in perspective, particularly that of someone who has played previous editions of D&D, in 1st and 2nd edition, spellcasting could generally not be accomplished with any movement at all - even a 5' step was too much to take. You couldn't even use your Dex bonus to your AC. So to some of us, PF spell casting is full varying degrees of bonuses and losing movement isn't much of a penalty at all - just less of a bonus.
Atarlost |
Don't take a feat unless you have a plan for using it.
If you have a plan for using a metamagic feat you can prepare with it just as well as you can prepare spells. Dazing Fireball or Intensified Shocking Grasp or Persistent Baleful Polymorph are just more spells known, they're not any harder to plan for than regular Fireball, Shocking Grasp, and Baleful Polymorph.
Sorcerers get the same effective extra spells known from metamagic, but they're no more flexible with them than with any other spells known and they're worse spells because they eat move actions. Without move actions you can't control range. Heavy metamagic use on a sorcerer leaves you with a 5' movement rate with which to stay out of melee range.
There's only one metamagic sorcerers do better: silent. Still usually comes up in situations like grapples where you have serious concentration check problems anyways and isn't very useful outside an armored EK build that stills everything with a somatic component except stuff he extends before putting on his armor in the morning. Silent's rarely enough used, though, that it's better on a rod unless you're some sort of stealth caster build.
Kittenological |
being able to choose whether to apply a metamagic feat or not on the fly is an invaluable tool. Something that needs be kept under check, which they do nicely. I would've been outraged were the penalty be 1 round of casting as opposed to 1 full-round (which, despite its name, takes less time) but since it's not, I'm happy with it.
Piercing Spell is one example where it's far more beneficial to have it on the go rather than preparing it beforehand.
Lord Fyre RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32 |
Raith Shadar wrote:I didn't find the full round required to be a problem. It's really powerful to be able to apply a Metamagic feat on the spot.No more than casting any spell on the fly, and yet wizards are considered by most to be the stronger class.
Yes, wizards are far more flexable given their potentially vast spell options. If you add in the potential to have an armload of scrolls, then yes, wizards can be very powerful.
In reality, the wizard is often caught without the right spell(s) prepared (or scribed).
Quandary |
If appeals to majority of approval are meaningful, it seems every poster here but Atarlost is a fan of sorceror metamagic.
Although his point doesn't seem to be clearly re: sorceror metamagic,
as much as his (or his invoked phantom majority) opinion re: sorcerors vs. wizards.
Sorcerors' spells known are one of their major limiting factors.
Metamagic multiplies the variety and viability of almost all your spells known.
Some people spend a Feat to gain a spell known of top spell level.
Metamagic grants a variation on a whole host of spells.
Orfamay Quest |
Don't take a feat unless you have a plan for using it.
Contingency plans are still plans. Otherwise no martial type would golf-bag weapons, or even carry a backup. "I carry a greatsword as my main weapon, but I've got a bow in case the tactical situation calls for ranged attacks. I make my choice based on the tactical situation now, not the tactical situation as of 6am this morning when I prepared weapons." Certainly no martial type would take "combat reflexes," as you can't realistically plan to use it.
Silent Spell is a contingency feat, for when you can't or don't want to be heard while casting. Still Spell is a contingency feat for when you wake up in shackles or find yourself grappled. Reach Spell is the sorcerer's equivalent of that bow, for when the tactical situation suggests you need to hit someone farther away than usual. Threnodic Spell is for when the BBEG that you thought was a human turns out to be a vampire. Elemental Spell means that the evil cleric's immunity to fire doesn't matter as much.
HaraldKlak |
Raith Shadar wrote:I didn't find the full round required to be a problem. It's really powerful to be able to apply a Metamagic feat on the spot.No more than casting any spell on the fly, and yet wizards are considered by most to be the stronger class.
I believe your comparison of the two classes is severely flawed, when where discussing how to build a blaster.
Between the sorcerer and the wizard, the sorcerer makes the best blaster, because he can do it without sacrificing his limited versatility.
The wizard can prepare the same blasting spells, and metamagic version thereof. But when he does so, he commits himself to be being a one-trick-pony.
That the wizard might be regarded as the strongest of the two classes, is due to versatility not specialization.
For the sorcerer metamagic grants versatility through similar to additional spells known, yet through different applications and combinations, they 'save' a lot of their precious spells known. Apart from a blasting spell on level 1, 2, and 3, they don't really need more.
This leaves them with the freedom to choose different types of spells, which - unlike the blaster wizard - remain an option to them as an alternative to the wizard.
leo1925 |
@HaraldKlak
Core only you might be correct that sorcerers make better blasters than wizards, that isn't the case though with all the books we have available now.
@OP
Yes metamagic is worse for a sorcerer than for a wizard but not for the reason you mentioned (at least not solely for the reason you meantioned).
The full round casting time is a pain but not a deal breaker and is partially made up by the fact that you don't have to place the metamagic ahead of time (as others mentioned). The biggest issue is that this limitation also applies when using metamagic rods but it doesn't apply to wizards using metamagic rods.
Raith Shadar |
Raith Shadar wrote:I didn't find the full round required to be a problem. It's really powerful to be able to apply a Metamagic feat on the spot.No more than casting any spell on the fly, and yet wizards are considered by most to be the stronger class.
Wizards are stronger at planning. A lot of folks like having that versatility.
A focused Sorcerer can do a particular thing better than a wizard. If you build a sorcerer damage dealer, they will do more damage than the wizard. If you make a Sorcerer dominator, he will be stronger. Sorcerer's have a narrow focus, but are stronger within that focus than a wizard.
I ran a sorcerer blaster with a wizard, he couldn't touch the sorcerer's damage output. It wasn't even a close contest.
strayshift |
I would say that you definitely 'build' a Sorcerer in that because you are so focussed you have little/no room to waste spells/feats. With a Wizard you have greater ability to accommodate diversity (and more 'open' feats to play with). I think this means you have to be clearer about how your sorcerer will develop at the start and in general that benefits the more experienced player and metamagic choice is a key part of this.
Then there is the issue of temperament, players who prefer to research and plan (and have a DM that is open to this) benefit from playing wizards. Players who are more spontaneous themselves, tend to enjoy the challenge of using your narrower range of spell options.
Then there is your party balance - generally speaking the smaller the party the more need to cover certain bases and to avoid duplication. Again I find metamagics useful here, allowing you to maximise your casting slots.
Jodokai |
No more than casting any spell on the fly, and yet wizards are considered by most to be the stronger class.
I completely disagree with this. Fireball is a perfect example, and a staple of both classes. As a Sorcerer, no one in the way? Use your Maximized/Intensified fireball. Roll crappy init and the Barbarian and Fighter in the way? That's cool, make your fireball selective. Going against a Fire Elemental? Use Elemental Spell to make an acid fireball. There is no way a Wizard could be prepared enough for all these situations.
Darkflame |
uhm the abilety to decide what type of metamagic when and where is pritty powerfull
lets say elemental spell
a wizard would need to memorize all types of fireball to be efective againt the weak element of its foes and a sorcere can just say..
oh an fire elemental lets make my fireball do frost damage
or whatever is the weakness of whatever element!
Raith Shadar |
Raith Shadar wrote:When? Was it before UM?
I ran a sorcerer blaster with a wizard, he couldn't touch the sorcerer's damage output. It wasn't even a close contest.
No. It was after. I think UM introduced the Cross-blooded Sorcerer. Using the Cross-blooded Sorcerer you can build some sorcerers that do some great stuff, but are very focused.
Prior to the Cross-blooded archetype being introduced, I would say the Wizard was clearly stronger than the Sorcerer. After I think you can fashion Sorcerer's that can do certain things better than the Wizard, especially blasters and dominators.
notabot |
Atarlost wrote:No more than casting any spell on the fly, and yet wizards are considered by most to be the stronger class.I completely disagree with this. Fireball is a perfect example, and a staple of both classes. As a Sorcerer, no one in the way? Use your Maximized/Intensified fireball. Roll crappy init and the Barbarian and Fighter in the way? That's cool, make your fireball selective. Going against a Fire Elemental? Use Elemental Spell to make an acid fireball. There is no way a Wizard could be prepared enough for all these situations.
Actually a good selection of rods (as suggested in most good build guides) can go a long way. A blaster wizard is going to use his big fireball, with a selective rod. A Wizard has the flexibility in actions (move action to take out rod) to be able to make use of a number of rods. Sorcerers can make use of rods too, but lack the actions to be able to use them to the same effect, if they want to meta magic they don't get move actions, they have to have the one they want out ahead of time.
Also an admixture wizard can use his class ability to change damage type.
Apocalypso |
If your friend decides to go with cross-blooded sorcerer-- draconic (extra damage with spell of elemental type) and elemental (change any elemental spell to your elemental type) can be very cool.
Although you can also get that with Elemental Focus feat.
Human is good for cross-blooded sorcerers because of getting back that extra spell per level.
AND... on topic... metamagic feats are very interesting for cross blooded sorcerers. Say at 4th level, when you get a 2nd level spell SLOT... but no 2nd level spells KNOWN, you can use that spell slot to metamagic a spell.
Someone on these boards taught me that trick. Thank you.
Jodokai |
Actually a good selection of rods (as suggested in most good build guides) can go a long way. A blaster wizard is going to use his big fireball, with a selective rod. A Wizard has the flexibility in actions (move action to take out rod) to be able to make use of a number of rods. Sorcerers can make use of rods too, but lack the actions to be able to use them to the same effect, if they want to meta magic they don't get move actions, they have to have the one they want out ahead of time.
Also an admixture wizard can use his class ability to change damage type.
Do you see what you're doing though? You've just given your Wizard the exact same problem as the Sorcerer and called it better. It's actually worse because not only has the wizard lost his move action (just like a sorcerer would) next round if a different rod is needed, the wizard either drops the rod and hopes he doens't need it again, or puts it away, and loses even more actions. That's not taking into account a sorcerer can do the same thing.
LazarX |
If appeals to majority of approval are meaningful, it seems every poster here but Atarlost is a fan of sorceror metamagic.
Although his point doesn't seem to be clearly re: sorceror metamagic,
as much as his (or his invoked phantom majority) opinion re: sorcerors vs. wizards.
I like using metamagic as much as a wizard as I do a sorcerer. They just represent different styles of play. This whole sorcerers vs. wizards thing is just as silly if not more so than the endless Mac/Dos debates that used to go on. Maybe it's because there are people who can't be comfortable with the choices they make, unless they can knock down all of the alternatives.
notabot |
notabot wrote:Do you see what you're doing though? You've just given your Wizard the exact same problem as the Sorcerer and called it better. It's actually worse because not only has the wizard lost his move action (just like a sorcerer would) next round if a different rod is needed, the wizard either drops the rod and hopes he doens't need it again, or puts it away, and loses even more actions. That's not taking into account a sorcerer can do the same thing.Actually a good selection of rods (as suggested in most good build guides) can go a long way. A blaster wizard is going to use his big fireball, with a selective rod. A Wizard has the flexibility in actions (move action to take out rod) to be able to make use of a number of rods. Sorcerers can make use of rods too, but lack the actions to be able to use them to the same effect, if they want to meta magic they don't get move actions, they have to have the one they want out ahead of time.
Also an admixture wizard can use his class ability to change damage type.
A Sorcerer can't do the same thing. A wizard uses a maximized fireball spell, wants it to be selective too, grabs his metamagic rod and bam, its selective. A sorcerer want to use a maximized fireball, no problem. Wants to make it selective with a rod, uh oh, can't do it, not enough actions. Its only the same thing if the pre rod spell doesn't need meta magic, once you have the pre rod spell having meta magic the wizard makes better use of the rod.
ZZTRaider |
Sorcerers do have issues with metamagic rods.
From the PRD...
"A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action)."
So, a Sorcerer needs to spend a move action to draw the rod at least one round before attempting to cast the metamagic'ed spell with it. That's pretty painful, but that's the price you pay for being more flexible with metamagic under normal circumstances.
StreamOfTheSky |
BTW, my personal house-rule is all casters get Heighten Spell Metamagic Feat for free.
(that is a pre-req for some Feats and PrCs, you might like to create another pre-req to keep the relative balance re: Feat/PrC entry)
It just seems ridiculous and not in the interest of balance to say that blowing higher level slots on lower level spells
should't gain the minimum benefits of being a spell slot of that level, namely DC and vulnerability to Globe of Invulnerability, etc.
Heighten is basically the weakest MM in the game, there is no argument that a Heightened spell really competes with spells actually of that level, so I don't see anything wrong with giving the Feat out for free. That does tend to help out Sorcerors, since it lets them parlay their limited spells known into a broader array of effects with DCs appropriate to the situation. Of course, they are using Full-Round actions to do so. And if a Wizard wants to prepare a Heightened version of a lower spell, they can have fun doing so. Without this, dedicating the Feat for Heighten is just ridiculous unless it's pure Feat Tax for qualifying for something else. It's seemed to turn out fine in games I've used it in.
You shouldn't give casters free boons, they really don't need them.
I do think Heighten is pretty bleh, though. So instead of giving it for free, I buff it a little to make it more useful. My rule is that for "iterative series" spells (like Summon Monster 1-9, Beast Shape 1-4, etc...) heightening it gives you the higher level version in that series of spells, appropriate for the new level (if there is one; You can heighten Beast Shape I to 9th level and there's still not going to be a "Beast Shape V"...unless one gets printed in the future). Furthermore, heightening a direct damage spell increasing the maximum damage dice cap for it. The D&D 3.5 DMG had a table to use as a guideline for this, so you'd reference that. For example, a 4th level arcane spell according to the table should cap at 10 dice for area effects and 15 dice for single target. If you were heightening Shocking Grasp to 4th level, it would get capped at 15d6 (at CL 15) instead of 5d6.
This change to heighten makes it especially appealing to sorcerers, as they can effectively access the entire series of spells for Summon Monster and such on the fly just by having the lowest level version of it and the metamagic feat. But they still have to actually spend a feat on heighten spell. No freebies.
ZZTRaider |
You shouldn't give casters free boons, they really don't need them.
I do think Heighten is pretty bleh, though. So instead of giving it for free, I buff it a little to make it more useful. My rule is that for "iterative series" spells (like Summon Monster 1-9, Beast Shape 1-4, etc...) heightening it gives you the higher level version in that series of spells, appropriate for the new level (if there is one; You can heighten Beast Shape I to 9th level and there's still not going to be a "Beast Shape V"...unless one gets printed in the future). Furthermore, heightening a direct damage spell increasing the maximum damage dice cap for it. The D&D 3.5 DMG had a table to use as a guideline for this, so you'd reference that. For example, a 4th level arcane spell according to the table should cap at 10 dice...
Doesn't that just give casters a free boon in that Heighten becomes a better version of Intensify?
StreamOfTheSky |
Well, I wrote that houserule before PF even launched, let alone Intensify Spell being a thing.
And no, it's not. Intensify is simply +1 level for +5 to the dice cap, every time. Heighten used on a spell slot on the cusp of the next die cap would look the same, but only in those instances. It takes two spell levels for dice caps to increase generally. For example, for arcane area spells, it is 10 dice for 3rd and 4th level, 15 for 5th and 6th level, 20 for 7th and 8th, and 25 for 9th. Heightening a Fireball to 4th level would make no difference, Intensifying it would.
If you look at the table (p. 36 of the 3.5 DMG), you'll actually notice that levels where the dice cap increases tend to be the ones with the best direct damage spells of that type (single target or area), and then the next level where the cap stagnates there is a dearth of such spells that are particularly good. I was just making a blaster character the party needed for a PF game, 9th level Sorcerer. I was astonished how horrifically bad the 4th level area damage spell options were. They were all plainly worse than fireball, a level lower! Not even equal, worse! While Heightening with my change would probably have some corner cases where it works just as good as Intensify, in general to increase the cap on an already good spell you're going to pay +2 levels, and the times you get a cap increase for +1 level it will probably be on a spell that was mediocre for its level anyway.
strayshift |
Regarding the rods point:
Rod or weapon? Hmmm... well as I don't PLAN on getting into a fight...
And I know most of the metamagics I am going to regularly use at this level based on my spell choices...
Unless I have more than one rod of a metamagic that I really should know myself (which is a bit silly of me, not knowing it, but we all have big plans) this isn't an issue because the number of metamagics I will be using on a regular basis will be low and of a particular nature to fit my spells.
If I have to draw another rod I can always cast a non-modified spell of some sort and then metamagics the next spell I do.
So to lose out because of this, I would have to be carrying a metamagic rod or staff/wand that is inappropriate to the situation, for there to be time pressure to cast a particular modified spell (i.e. THAT round) and for me to have no other useful options.
Possible but unlikely.
Atarlost |
Meta-rod golfbagging puts the wizard in the same action economy boat as the sorcerer using feats. Except the wizard isn't using higher level spell slots. The wizard is getting something for his move actions rather than it being a "WotC wants all the whiny ______ who refuse to play Gygax's holy vancian prepared wizard to suffer" tax.
I mean, they're already paying delayed spell access and an insultingly small spells known pool. The metamagic action penalty on top of that makes it pretty clear that WotC hates you for daring to want to not be a vancian caster. Backwards compatibility was a very good business decision, but sometimes it was the wrong game design decision.
The D&D 3.5 DMG had a table to use as a guideline for this, so you'd reference that.
There's a new table in UM. I think the main difference is that single target spells get their bumps at even levels, so a 4th level multitarget spell would cap at 10 dice, but a 4th level single target spell would cap at 15 dice.
leo1925 |
leo1925 wrote:Raith Shadar wrote:When? Was it before UM?
I ran a sorcerer blaster with a wizard, he couldn't touch the sorcerer's damage output. It wasn't even a close contest.No. It was after. I think UM introduced the Cross-blooded Sorcerer. Using the Cross-blooded Sorcerer you can build some sorcerers that do some great stuff, but are very focused.
Prior to the Cross-blooded archetype being introduced, I would say the Wizard was clearly stronger than the Sorcerer. After I think you can fashion Sorcerer's that can do certain things better than the Wizard, especially blasters and dominators.
Then i guees you weren't familliar with the following build:
If you use traits be sure to take magical lineage for a spell of your choice, popular choices are fireball, fire snake and battering blast (although this requires a somewhat different blaster build), be sure that your spell of choice isn't higher than 4th level (spell perfection issues).
Yes this build gets new spell level one levels later (of a wizard) but a sorcerer who goes crossblooded gets new spell levels two level later (of a wizard), furthermore because of the dip you aren't at a -2 will save (as a crossblooded sorcerer would be) but you are at a -0.5 will save, a -0.33 fort save and -0.33 reflex save.
Furthermore because of the evocation school's power intense spells you are only 0.5 points of damage* behind a half orc sorcerer when using fire spells, when using any other kind of spell you are ahead.
Now because of admixture's focused school's versatile evocation power you get to change the elemental damage of your spells* to another type in order to get around energy immunities and/or energy resistances, that way* you don't have to deal with the elemental spell metamagic feat.
If you make the wizard an elf you can get the favored class option where you can increase the daily uses of the versatile evocation power by half your wizard level, in addition by going elf you can pick the spellbinder elf archetype in order to get some spontaneous goodness if you want so (i personally prefer the familiar).
By being a wizard you also have the ability to use metamagic rods the round you want to and not the round after (like a sorcerer does), that leaves open a few feats (because you don't need to pick every metamagic you want or might want to use) and blasters are the most feat heavy builds (imo), between the various metamagic feats, spell penetration, spell focus, elemental focus and the greater versions of the previous feats the list of feats you want grows big, being a wizard also gets you a few bonus feats.
Pro tip #1: Let's say you pick red dragon for your draconic bloodline, now you have +1 damage per die of damage when you cast spells with the fire descriptor. Now if you cast lightning bolt you don't get that extra +1 damage per die BUT if you use your versatile evocation power to turn it into fire damage you will get the extra +1 damage per die because you changed the descriptor to fire.
Pro tip #2: Let's say again that you pick red dragon for your draconic bloodline, now you have +1 damage per die of damage when you cast spells with the fire descriptor. Now if you cast fireball you get the extra +1 damage per die, but let's say you encounter something that is immune to fire damage, now what you do? you can use your versatile evocation]versatile evocation to change to another element where your target doesn't have an immunity; for example ice damage, but now you don't get the +1 extra damage per die becuase you changed the descriptor of the spell. What you can do is activate your elemental manipulation** power and choose to change fire into cold and then cast your fireball, because you didn't change the spell's descriptor you still get the extra +1 damage per die.
Remember when using this tactic with the build above you have to cast your spell with 1 less caster level because the elemental manipulation power works on effects with a caster level no higher than your wizard levels (and your caster level for evocation spells is 1 higher than your wizard level because of the Varisian Tattoo feat you have).
Pro tip #3: I suggest going with either black, green or copper dragon (acid) or red, brass or gold (fire) for your draconic bloodline.
The first choice (acid) has the advantage that a very few creatures have immunity to acid and the resistance to acid isn't as common as resistance to fire, to my knowledge only one "family" of monsters (the proteans) have immunity to acid and it's not one of the "polular" monsters, the downside is that there are very few acid blasting spells; that means that you will a)you will have to use your versatile evocation power more often than not.
The second choice (fire) doesn't has the downside of the first choice but immunity and resistance to fire are the most common immunities and resistances, also while vulnerability to an elemental energy is rare, the most common vulnerability is vulnerability to fire. This choice also has the quite small downside that you might start a fire, and while all blasting spells have the chance to destroy the scenery and/or items, furniture etc, if you start a fire it might spread and bring more destruction and trouble your way.
*yes i know that both the intense spells and the versatile evocation powers only work with evocation spells, and yes there are a few non-evocation damage spells but a blaster (whether sorcerer or wizard) is likely to use evocation damage spells the majority of the time
**yes i know that elemental manipulation requires a standard action to activate and it's only 30 feet, which means getting into dangerous territory and maybe in range of your own blasts, it's a good and unusual tactic that may be usueful, personally i have used it twice against two encounters with devils and i blew away both encounters.
I placed the build in a spoiler tag because it turned out to a pretty big wall of text.