My players are about to try and run the pirate blockade in SWW, and I'm wondering how the ship to ship combat went for anyone else. If I was the players, I'd start lobbing fireballs at the pirates. Since they have 8hp each, it just takes one fireball to convince the (remaining) pirates to retreat.
Also, how much damage does a ballista do?
My players are about to try and run the pirate blockade in SWW, and I'm wondering how the ship to ship combat went for anyone else. If I was the players, I'd start lobbing fireballs at the pirates. Since they have 8hp each, it just takes one fireball to convince the (remaining) pirates to retreat.
Also, how much damage does a ballista do?
I would as a DM let them cast a fireball , ouch what is that someone countered it and it is on its way back.... Now they need to really think about what to do is there a wizard on the ship, or may be someone has a item? I dont know depends on how you want your game to go do you want the pirates to be wiped out, no CR at all?
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I don't agree that one fireball thrown at one ship would make them all retreat. Pirates in a magical land where fireballs occur have probably seen at least one before, so the shock factor isn't really that huge. Plus, when one ship gets sunk in a major naval engagement by cannonballs, the rest of the ships don't pack up and retreat, right? Most pirate captains probably know enough to know that even a pretty powerful mage can only throw a few fireballs, which would clear the pirates off of a ship or two and that's it.
Also, read your Stormwrack...fireballs won't actually catch ships on fire too much either.
I think you're seriously overestimating the effect (both real and morale) on a fireball against a pirate force.
I was going to run the encounter as written, with one pirate ship. My concern is that one fireball can kill a good chunk of the crew (they've got 8hp each). The sorcerer can fire one every six seconds until she runs out. I'd think about turning around at that point if I was running that ship.
I think you're seriously overestimating the effect (both real and morale) on a fireball against a pirate force.
I've wondered about this quite a bit in the past. It's not the same as cannon fire, which usually misses and will kill few crewmen (per shot). Rather, it's essentially a near-TPK for targeted ships, and the wizard across the water might very well have a wand of fireballs, for all a crew knows.
My sense is that, were such a scenario real, it would have a profound effect on morale. Of course, this isn't real, and I have no problem fudging things to keep the game going...
It also occurs to me that a fireball will eliminate the sails and rigging in a flash -- literally :)
I would as a DM let them cast a fireball , ouch what is that someone countered it and it is on its way back.... Now they need to really think about what to do is there a wizard on the ship, or may be someone has a item? I dont know depends on how you want your game to go do you want the pirates to be wiped out, no CR at all?
They don't have any spellcasters that can counter fireball, and they wouldn't be able to "send it back" even if they did have such a spellcaster. They're a bunch of low-level warriors, and one slightly stronger captain that is still intended to be roadkill. The SWW blockade is intended to allow the PCs to show off their new powers, to show how much they've grown since they fought the Lotus Dragons. So yes, the pirates are supposed to be wiped out, with only a trivial xp award due to the minimal challenge.
And yes, after one fireball it would be completely reasonable for the few survivors to bail out and try swimming to shore, diving underwater to try to avoid further fireballs. Play up the havoc the players so easily caused, and let them be happy about their victory. DM payback comes later on in SWW.
My PCs bought a light catapult for the Sea Wyvern, a fan feather token, and a scroll of fireball (there's a fighter/sorc). When the Brotherhood Blockade came along, the two ships saw each other a good distance out, enough to play chicken anyway. Right before they rammed each other, the PCs launched their catapult and fireball. The fireball, properly targetted, did do some damage to most of the parts of the enemy ship. But it didn't completely finish off any of those parts either. And since he targetted the spell in the middle of the ship, it didn't quite reach the front hull parts of the enemy ship to do some damage. So the ramming and the fireball spell hit different parts of the ship, and they only holed one part of the enemy hull after unloading.
However, the fireball scroll killed 6 of the enemy pirates, right before the ramming and the melee started.
Fireballs are great for taking out rigging and sails. No maneuverability means a sitting duck. It is less effective against the ship itself.
One of my PCs is an evoker of 4th level and bought 2 fireball scrolls to the trip. An other player bought three of these magic tokens that anchor a ship in one place for an hour. Yet an other player is a fey'ri with alter self ability.
The fey'ri turned into a sea elf (base swim 90ft), swam bellow the ships, stuck the anchor token, then came the wizard with the fireballs, while the others were just finishing off the escaping pirates with the balliestea and bows.
Well, sometimes you have to give the PCs the joy of having the upper hand. And add a new ship to their collection :)
My take on this is that ships in a D&D world where fireballs happen hire on counterspellers and defense mages to protect them.
That's usually my solution, too.
In fact, given the relative abundance of mages, sorcerors, and clerics, why would ballistae and other pieces of war technology be invented?
Hey thanks for the backing on the counterspell and other mages....
"If you Die and you didnt try, Then you didnt really live"
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In fact, given the relative abundance of mages, sorcerors, and clerics, why would ballistae and other pieces of war technology be invented?
I would say they were invented because even though there are an abundance of spellcasters, they are expensive to hire as crewman. Since one spellcaster capable of lobbing fireballs is worth his weight in platinum, when it comes to ship to ship battles at distance. Ballistae, cannons, and other such ship siege weaponry cost money to operate, but don't get a cut of the booty or food like a spellcaster would. Also considering that the adventure states that these pirates are scavengers mostly and down on their luck, seems very unlikely that they could produce the funding required to maintain a ship spellcaster.
In my campaign, I have created a feat called "ship mage". It replaces your familiar with a ship- abjuration spells of level 3 or lower that effect you effect the ship, you can hear conversations on other parts of the ship, and sense the direction and approximate distance to your ship- you can also deliver touch spells with your ship...requires the wizard to be 5th level- it is powerful, but very situational. it allows the ship to be basiclly immune to fireballs, magic missiles, missile weapons, ect.
In my campaign, I have created a feat called "ship mage". It replaces your familiar with a ship- abjuration spells of level 3 or lower that effect you effect the ship, you can hear conversations on other parts of the ship, and sense the direction and approximate distance to your ship- you can also deliver touch spells with your ship...requires the wizard to be 5th level- it is powerful, but very situational. it allows the ship to be basiclly immune to fireballs, magic missiles, missile weapons, ect.
That sounds very cool, like a bonded pilot deal.
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I would say they were invented because even though there are an abundance of spellcasters, they are expensive to hire as crewman. Since one spellcaster capable of lobbing fireballs is worth his weight in platinum, when it comes to ship to ship battles at distance. Ballistae, cannons, and other such ship siege weaponry cost money to operate, but don't get a cut of the booty or food like a spellcaster would. Also considering that the adventure states that these pirates are scavengers mostly and down on their luck, seems very unlikely that they could produce the funding required to maintain a ship spellcaster.
Let's also not forget that pirates are not the most trusting lot. If you were a person who made their living by means of pillage and plunder, would you put your trust into an employee who could possibly wipe out you and your crew? Of course, should that happen, you end up with a spell casting pirate captain which is another matter entirely.
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In my campaign, I have created a feat called "ship mage". It replaces your familiar with a ship- abjuration spells of level 3 or lower that effect you effect the ship, you can hear conversations on other parts of the ship, and sense the direction and approximate distance to your ship- you can also deliver touch spells with your ship...requires the wizard to be 5th level- it is powerful, but very situational. it allows the ship to be basiclly immune to fireballs, magic missiles, missile weapons, ect.
Which would work perfectly for a spellcasting pirate captain. No worries of mutiny (they would hear about it before it becomes a serious threat and deal with it accordingly), anyone who boards gets hit with touch spells as soon as they step on board, etc. Nasty. :)
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my pc s were a little to tough to fight the pirates.in the blockade,so i ran it with them playing the npcs in the fight.the pc s were in tamoachan and the blue nixie , the sea wyvern left that night while they were adventureing with urol. the dark madiens dance waited on them until they returned.being a day behind the nixie and wyvern when the blockade battle to place. the players used captain amella, skald, lady vanderboren,and lirith the tomboy. my players werent warming up to the npcs so i tried this to get things rolling with the pc to npc relationships,and it worked great... the captain of the dark maidens dance ( Captain Darious) is now ethier in love with lady vanderboren or captain amella. skald rolls a nat 20 every fight.and they really like lirith she s fun to hang with.....the main pc for the party is a wizard and with his fire ball this encounter would not have been worth running in my game so thats how i did it to make it seem a more dangerous journey....
my pc s were a little to tough to fight the pirates.in the blockade,so i ran it with them playing the npcs in the fight.the pc s were in tamoachan and the blue nixie , the sea wyvern left that night while they were adventureing with urol. ...this encounter would not have been worth running in my game so thats how i did it to make it seem a more dangerous journey.
That idea is awesome! Consider it stolen.
The Arms and Equipment Guide has a rule that stated that spells with fire/ acid/ lightning do only half damage. Cold does one quarter. Sonic full damage. Ranaged weapons smaller than Siege Engines also do onlt half damage. Page 46 & 47.
I rather liked this idea. The crew might be able to seek cover and avoid the blunt of a fireball attack.
Also, how much damage does a ballista do?
A ballista does 3d8, with a crit on 19-20. The problem is, it's -4 to hit, plus range penalty (range increment 150 feet), so the odds of hitting an individual are low. If you hit the ship, piercing weapons don't do that much damage.
Also, how much damage does a ballista do?
...If you hit the ship, piercing weapons don't do that much damage.
Interesting rule. Were I attacking a ship, I'd be happy to aim a heavy piercing weapon below the waterline.
Rather than hiring an expensive wizard, the captain of a ship could instead perhaps enchant his ship like a Ring of Counterspells, thus the ship could be made immune to the first hit of a spell (or considering how big a ship is, maybe for more make it immuneot a few spells) such as fireball or lightning bolt, spells that are especially nasty and all. And hey add in buying a few copies of the spells on scrolls and hiring a low level caster to cast the spells into the counterspell function of the ship, and you just might be able to survive a long voyage.
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Why thank you ....cosider that idea yours ... and good gameing...
my pc s were a little to tough to fight the pirates.in the blockade,so i ran it with them playing the npcs in the fight.the pc s were in tamoachan and the blue nixie , the sea wyvern left that night while they were adventureing with urol. ...this encounter would not have been worth running in my game so thats how i did it to make it seem a more dangerous journey.That idea is awesome! Consider it stolen.
The Arms and Equipment Guide has a rule that stated that spells with fire/ acid/ lightning do only half damage. Cold does one quarter. Sonic full damage. Ranaged weapons smaller than Siege Engines also do onlt half damage. Page 46 & 47.
I rather liked this idea. The crew might be able to seek cover and avoid the blunt of a fireball attack.
Stormwrack speaks to this, giving occupants on deck cover bonuses against area of effect spells.
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Shameless bump.
Another approach, for those starting STAP or are about to:
Have the PC's start the AP on a merchant ship (i've started them on the Blue Nixie, sailing from Gyrax to Sasserine...they come up with why...The blue nixie is returning with no cargo after hearing about the Vanderboren Death). Have this merchant vessel be attacked by a Scarlet Brotherhood privateer. The SAME privateer that attacks them at the Blockade in SWW. So its not a TPK, have the captain activate the magical power of the Blue Nixie bowspirit: A Huge Water Elemental is summoned, bashing on the Scarlet Brotherhood ship, which quickly attempts to flee. Unfortunately, The bowspirit had only one charge, and now the Vanderboren Heir is too broke to replenish this power...
When the characters encounter the same ship and destroy it, the satisfaction will be all the more juicy.
This has been a bit of a sticky issue for me as well, because I want to run the adventure path in the Spelljammer Campaign Setting. Should they be in space, fireball spells from ship to ship wouldn't work very well- once they extended past a certain range, they would simply fizzle out. I'm planning to allow force spells and effects for long-distance magical space combat, and fireball and other familiar favorites for closer range combat.
Worked like a charm - players let the pirates sail into 200' rainge, then centered the fireball so it hit the mainmast 10' up from the deck.
Sails, shrouds (tarred !) and other running gear was either torn to shreds or set ablaze. As for the pirates themselves - half the crew was wiped out instantly, given the other time to pause, re-consider ( they were below the "normal-crew" limit already and decided to haul for it, although their ship soon went down in a blaze ( connecting 5' sections being set on fire every round ), sending them to the bottom, with the crew hauling off in the dinghi - hence the players won, but no treasure from the pirates was gained.
Group also had a "Shatterfloor"-Spell readied to hit the pirates once they were very close - 6D4 sonic + added 6" destruction of the ground/deck are a pretty certain way to wreck any medieval ship.
The pirates are no challenge at all (and I cannot imagine what players would actually loose or surrender to them at 5th/6th level ) - even if they had boarded unharmed, the groups melee-power would have torn them to shreds.
Given the rules for spreading fire and these being ships in warm, tropical climate, hence the upperworks being thoroughly dry, with tarred seams and surfaces, dry ropes and sails all about to catch a spark fire is the "great killer" it historically always was.
As for piercing weapons and wooden sides - piercing weapons tend to get stuck in wood, not pierce through , and even if they do, stick smack in the hole they punched. Cannonballs "smashed" wooden sections to splinters, breaking a way through a ship's hull (or getting stuck halfway), usually killing more with the cloud of splintering wood caused by the impact then by a direct hit itself.
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Interesting rule. Were I attacking a ship, I'd be happy to aim a heavy piercing weapon below the waterline.
Yeah, but the wood has a hardness of 5, and each hull section takes 25 points to hole. So...it would take at least 2 hits, probably 3, on the same hull section to actually hole it.
And remember to specifically target a specific hull section adds additional penalties, and the thing can only fire once every 4 rounds.
Interesting rule. Were I attacking a ship, I'd be happy to aim a heavy piercing weapon below the waterline.Yeah, but the wood has a hardness of 5, and each hull section takes 25 points to hole. So...it would take at least 2 hits, probably 3, on the same hull section to actually hole it.
And remember to specifically target a specific hull section adds additional penalties, and the thing can only fire once every 4 rounds.
Not quite. It only takes 2 full rounds to reload, so, you fire every 3rd round.
SRD:
A ballista is essentially a Huge heavy crossbow fixed in place. Its size makes it hard for most creatures to aim it. Thus, a Medium creature takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls when using a ballista, and a Small creature takes a -6 penalty. It takes a creature smaller than Large two full-round actions to reload the ballista after firing.
I wonder if you could put banks of ballista belowdecks like cannons. That would dramatically increase your firepower.
Interesting rule. Were I attacking a ship, I'd be happy to aim a heavy piercing weapon below the waterline.Yeah, but the wood has a hardness of 5, and each hull section takes 25 points to hole. So...it would take at least 2 hits, probably 3, on the same hull section to actually hole it.
And remember to specifically target a specific hull section adds additional penalties, and the thing can only fire once every 4 rounds.
Not quite. It only takes 2 full rounds to reload, so, you fire every 3rd round.
SRD:
A ballista is essentially a Huge heavy crossbow fixed in place. Its size makes it hard for most creatures to aim it. Thus, a Medium creature takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls when using a ballista, and a Small creature takes a -6 penalty. It takes a creature smaller than Large two full-round actions to reload the ballista after firing.
I wonder if you could put banks of ballista belowdecks like cannons. That would dramatically increase your firepower.
Stormwrack lists RoF for the ballista at 1 per 4 rounds. Since we're using it for our STAP, that is what weasel quoted :)
Dc10 Str check to half cock as one full round, second Dc 10 Str check to full cock as a full round action, a third full round action to load the bolt itself, then you can fire. Crew isn't mentioned as speeding the process, so its 3 full rounds no matter how many people you have trying to make it cock/load faster.
big problem with ballistae belowdecks - the "arms" of the bow swing forward some, likely hitting the side, spars, knees and strakes, causeing major damage both to the ship and itself.
Plus, a ballista is even harder to aim/swivel through a gunport due to the throwing-arms sticking out to the sides.
They also waste much mor espace belowdecks than guns (which basically are rather narrow ), further cramping the ship.
Plus, maybe an overly realistic concern, but the cumulative recoil of a bank of ballistae might wrack havoc with a ships structure - hostoric vessels were as much limited in the size of the guns they could carry both from the sheer weight of the gun and the enormous energy manifesting in the recoil. Firing several at once only increased the effect - which was why older ships often were downsized to smaller-calibre batteries, or loosing some guns entirely due to the stress being too much.