Funny, this is the only issue of Dragon I've wanted to buy in years. Only wish the China Mieville stuff had been even longer.
I find it hard to believe that people who have never read China Mieville can't find use in the articles. The monsters are...monsters. There's nothing so crazy about them that anyone couldn't find a use for them. Same with the races. The history is something that is maybe less useful, but still might spark campaign ideas and maps are always good no matter what.
Funny, this is the only issue of Dragon I've wanted to buy in years. Only wish the China Mieville stuff had been even longer.
Same here! While I look forward to every issue this was the first *specific* issue I was nearly stalking my letter carrier for.
I find it hard to believe that people who have never read China Mieville can't find use in the articles. The monsters are...monsters. There's nothing so crazy about them that anyone couldn't find a use for them. Same with the races. The history is something that is maybe less useful, but still might spark campaign ideas and maps are always good no matter what.
And yet, for some reason, this seems to always be the case when any setting is covered. Like you say, monsters ARE monsters. Since when do we have enough monsters? In the same vein races are races, variations are always cool. Even if you just use, say, a Remade as an obscure mob boss (who's been "augmented" to stay the boss long after he should've kicked the bucket) you've got something your players won't see coming. How can a DM not want that?!
In all, I'd be hard-pressed to find one issue that I couldn't pull *something* from be it class, race, setting or what have you (like that issue with ery interesting ales like the dead body orc ale, the number escapes me right now.)
- Chris Shadowens
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This issue is part of literary, RPG and Dragon history. It will be remembered, referenced, and read long after the little '11 new feats!' and '6 ways to distribute treasure' articles are disposed of and forgotten.
Heh, when you say it like that, you make it sound like the cover of a women's magazine. "8 Mouth-Watering Wines from Waterdeep that Boost Your Immune System!" "What NOT to Wear (into battle): 20 Combat-Savvy Fashion Tips from Sharn and Beyond" "True Story: 'My Paladin was Really a Blackguard!'"
Ahem. Yes. All that said, I really dig articles of the type you mentioned, that can be applied to practically every game, rather than tweaked to fit in a certain game. I know how excited I get when I find the book/movie/minor celebrity/etc. that I personally consider the Next Big Thing, and how I tend to evangelize, "spreading the good word" to all who will listen, and if I edited a magazine, I'm certain that would not change. I currently have a subscription to Dragon, and, I must admit, I was not super-impressed with the issue in question. I've seen so many rave reviews on these forums, it seems it was worth the editors' while to publish an issue such as this. Even though I wasn't too enthused by the mag, I have high hopes that the next issue will have more of the types of articles that I look forward to each month, and, honestly, I'm building a library of the magazines so that friends may peruse and use them, and one of them may be less put-off by the Perdidostravaganza than I was.
I wouldn't say that 352 is empirically a waste of money, but I am saying that it could be if you are not interested in more wacky races and the setting to an editor's pet Next Big Thing. Again, not faulting someone for sharing what he thinks is a cool series, I'd definitely do the same.
Wasn't for me, though.
Since you didn't buy it, it wasn't really a waste of your money.
Just had to point that out.
-Amber S.
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I did not like this issue to well,and I like Dragon because of the many different things in the magazine. A little overkill on China's work ..yes,but I was glad to learn of his work and found a few things I did like.Maybe a little less in the issues didicated to one topic.But no real complaints here...
I haven't read the articles in question so don't know how easily applicable they are to different campaigns, but still...even if something is written for another setting doesn't mean there are no statblocks, items, maps or just your basic ideas to be pilfered.
One of the best article series ever in Dragon was Voyage of Princess Arc/Known World Grimoire which explored Mystara. Now I have never played in Mystara (when I had bene playing the old D&D it cannot be said that the adventures took place in any setting...) but the articles were just so full of ideas that they were treat to read and also gave good juice for existing campaigns. Few articles have been so alien that there is nothing you can do with them (the one with gnomish inventions in Spelljammer was pushing it) but some are more plug'n'play and some require more reconstruction. Personally I like the reconstruction-worthy usually more interesting and rewarding than the "10 new feats" articles.
The only use I found was the new weapons.
I can't really take any of the new races or monsters and throw them in an FR campaign. First off, they have no place their. Second, it'd be unofficial. Third, my players won't know it but I'll know they were taken from someone's own unique world and dumped into the Realms.
Now for a general campaign, it'd work out. Fortunately, I run FR, so there was nothing in the Mieville articles that helped.
The FR article on the 3 new undead, now that's what I'm talking about
...and because it is not official WotC police will come to your doorstep and beat you up if you dare to mix it in FR...?
As far as game worlds go, Greyhawk I guess is most famous for being total magpies, grabbing anything which happened to struck a fancy and putting it in the world, but Forgotten Realms is no stranger to this habit either. Ooh, let's put medieval/renaissance England in Cormyr! Druids in Moonshae! Arabs in Calimshan! Let's drop drow ranger with two scimitars among vikings!
I could understand the complaint if you were playing in somewhere like Dark Sun (and if you were, you would probably have stopped using Dragon as gaming help a long time ago...). With FR or GH, not really.
Oh, and while we are at it, I wonder if Keith Baker ever read Darkover series by Marion Zimmer Bradley? I started reading one Eberron novel and somehow the world feels rather familiar...
I can't really take any of the new races or monsters and throw them in an FR campaign. First off, they have no place their. Second, it'd be unofficial. Third, my players won't know it but I'll know they were taken from someone's own unique world and dumped into the Realms.Canon police! Canon police!
Actually, Dragon is official D&D - everything is approved by WotC before it's published. Since the MM1 isn't an official FR product, I'm assuming you allow core into your FR campaign?
I'm assuming you allow core into your FR campaign?
It's not allowed in.... It's "dumped" in.
Razz is entitled to his opinion like everyone else, though I think dumping anything in a campaign without smoothing over the rough edges is a bit silly even with things as common as orcs.
You know it, I know it, and the American people know it,
GGG
I run FR, so there was nothing in the Mieville articles that helped.
For the record I really hated the Shanarararara issue of Dragon at first, but even in depths of that overwritten world I found a spark or two. I personally think that this Dragon far surpasses that one even though I've never read Mieville.
I'm also a big fan of cross-pollenization. Taking cool things and putting them together to make even cooler things. It doesn't always work but you at least have to try. The idea of one end-all-be-all campaign setting that doesn't allow for growth or innovation sounds like to me like the eventual inbred deathknell of said setting.... Forgettable Realms might not be my favorite established setting, but it never seemed to be so purist that it couldn't adapt when it needed to, but perhaps I'm wrong.
GGG
I am a fan of these novels, but I think it is unfair to other readers of Dragon that an entire issue is devoted to it.
I wonder if there was a deal made with Mieville's publisher? If so, that would be a troubling precedent IMO.
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I am a fan of these novels, but I think it is unfair to other readers of Dragon that an entire issue is devoted to it.
I wonder if there was a deal made with Mieville's publisher? If so, that would be a troubling precedent IMO.
I was actually wondering that, too, but I didn't want to come across as too accusatory.
I don't know if I would say deal-making is necessarily a troubling precedent (they are running a business, after all!), but transparency/disclosure in regard to such a deal would be the honorable thing to do.
EDIT: Amber makes an entirely fair point. Should the thread be called "What a (Potential) Waste of MY Money"? :)
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I wonder if there was a deal made with Mieville's publisher? If so, that would be a troubling precedent IMO.
No it would not be a troubling precedent. It would be a good business move, from which Paizo, WOTC, Mieville readers, and roleplayers would all benefit. Crosspollination of two closely related markets stands to benefit everyone involved: Mieville and his principles sell more books, Paizo sells more Dragons, WOTC possibly reaches and taps more markets which creates more gamers AND increases their profitability; their margins go down a little and we all get out books cheaper.
This is far from a shady back room deal.
I wonder if there was a deal made with Mieville's publisher? If so, that would be a troubling precedent IMO.
Nope. Mieville ran because Mieville is awesome, and the Dragon folks felt that it brought a lot to the table, game-wise. China's got some fascinating ideas, and his books are bringing a whole new segment of the fantasy genre into the mainstream (and hence into the roleplaying community). That's enough for us.
The magazine staff has many vices, but payola is not one of them... as I'm sure hordes of disappointed contributors can attest.
My first glance at it was quite different, I thought it was a bit silly to dedicate that much to a single topic... but then I read the articles with an eye skinned for "What can I use from this to add to my games?" sorts of items. I came away with a lot... it's roleplaying gems wrapped in steampunk clothing.
Just off the top of my head, as someone that almost always runs my campaigns in the Realms, this is what I got out of the Bas Lag articles:
Cactacae, potential race for the desert regions of Maztica, wouldn't use all of their cultural information, wouldn't call them Cactacae, likely someting uninspired like Cactus Folk, just as something interesting and unique for a Maztica encounter.
Rivebow and Stingboxes . . . inventions of various Gond sects, especially the more "extreem" members of the faith. Stingboxes would definately not be "common" inventions, but they could be interesting examples of the more advanced side of Gondish technology. Again, wouldn't call them Rivebows or Stingboxes.
Remade fit in with a heretical sect of Gondsmen that are actually under the influence (unknowingly) of Talos, which is also the sect that using the information from Chaositech.
Not quite sure, but looking at some of the ablilities of the Scabmettlers for use as (Su) for Malaugrym (which I have never really felt were captured well in game terms based on how they are depicted in the novels), such as the quick disarm and perhaps some form of the seal wounds ability (only applying to non silver weapons).
Slake Moths are great, because, honestly, nightmarish moth creatures are kind of a recurring theme in a lot of horror and fantasy stories.
At the very least, it gets me to thinking about how to make some of these things work with the Realms and I do a lot of work making them more "Realmsian" than they are on the surface, but I love anything that gets my creative juices flowing.
The magazine staff has many vices, but payola is not one of them... as I'm sure hordes of disappointed contributors can attest.
PREACH IT BROTHA!!!
Amen to that,
GGG
What's payola?
And besides, this issue isn't really a waste of money at all cause it has two articles by that astoundingly good Dungeon writer named "Nicolas Logue" in it...what wonders they entail! Can't wait to pick this one up! I find Nico...
...Dang it! Forgot to sign on in one of my shameless self-promotional psuedonyms! Curses! Now, I'll just have to make sure I don't accidentally hit submit and then forget to hit edit afterwards when I am distracted by a the smell of macaroni and cheese cooking in the other room. Thank the gods, I'm not stupid enough to allow myself such a colossal blunder! HA!
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I didn't know China's work and so this issue was a new world and not easily applicable to the gameplay I've come to know and understand.
That's what I enjoyed about it. It was a challenge and it left me richer for the journey. Wolgang was a compelling guide.
And hey, for those who just don't want any part of that there's always ecology of the Yrthak, man!
Dang. With all the hullabaloo about the Bas Lag articles I forgot to mention that I like the scrimshaw double weapon made out of dinosaur bones a lot.
Thanks Heath!
I didn't know China's work and so this issue was a new world and not easily applicable to the gameplay I've come to know and understand.
That's what I enjoyed about it. It was a challenge and it left me richer for the journey.
From what little I know of you so far Rone, I feel confident saying you would really really enjoy his writing. I have only read The Scar so far, but I just picked up Perdido Street Station and plan to get all-sortsa-into-it!
From what little I know of you so far Rone, I feel confident saying you would really really enjoy his writing. I have only read The Scar so far, but I just picked up Perdido Street Station and plan to get all-sortsa-into-it!
I'm already sold. I will absolutely pick up a novel and get my feet wet. Thanks for the recommend, Nick.
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What's payola?
And besides, this issue isn't really a waste of money at all cause it has two articles by that astoundingly good Dungeon writer named "Nicolas Logue" in it...what wonders they entail! Can't wait to pick this one up! I find Nico...
...Dang it! Forgot to sign on in one of my shameless self-promotional psuedonyms! Curses! Now, I'll just have to make sure I don't accidentally hit submit and then forget to hit edit afterwards when I am distracted by a the smell of macaroni and cheese cooking in the other room. Thank the gods, I'm not stupid enough to allow myself such a colossal blunder! HA!
...
Such is the power of mac and cheese... I was unaware that it did Int damage, though - is it some kind of mold or ooze monster, perhaps? Better stay away... Thanks, man!
And Jade, I got onto the Mieville bandwagon after the article, and I'm loving it. Best fantasy I've read in quite a while. Personally, I liked Perdido Street Station even better than The scar. That might change by the time I finish the latter, though.
Such is the power of mac and cheese... I was unaware that it did Int damage, though - is it some kind of mold or ooze monster, perhaps? Better stay away... Thanks, man!
What a fantastic idea. Introduce the 'makinch ooze' in a game, then grab a handful of the stuff and throw it in a player's face and run for an open door.
Memories like that never fade.
What's payola?
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Seriously. What is it? Help a Int-damaged victim of makinch ooze out!
What's payola?
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Payola was used in the music industry... a practice by record companies of paying to have their songs played and plugged on the radio.
Money, drugs, sex... whatever got the play.
Styx's LADY went to number one, arguably in part due to a single influential DJ who was bought off with a heap o' coke... and he wasn't thirsty if you know what I'm saying.
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Seriously. What is it? Help a Int-damaged victim of makinch ooze out!What's payola?
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Payola used to be that record producers paid radio DJs to play and hype the producers' bands. This was apparently very prevalent back in the 1950s and 60s - these days, there are too many media outlets to cover to do this effectively.
So, payola = paying someone under the table to hype your product.
EDIT: Buh!- beaten to the punch! I gotta fine-tune my touch typing...
Money, drugs, sex... whatever got the play.
If I'd have known it was that easy to get stuff published by Paizo, I wouldn't have had to bribe them with all those exotic fruit snacks and chocolate laden macadamia nuts...straight-up money, drugs and sex would have been so much simpler.
Mr. Logue, if only you watched more WKRP, you would have already known about this . . . at the very least I hope you know turkeys can't fly . . .
...a heap o' coke... and he wasn't thirsty if you know what I'm saying.
You getting all this Mr. Sutter. You know what I'm bringing with me next time I come to Seattle...and you won't be thirsty ever again! ;-)
If I'd have known it was that easy to get stuff published by Paizo, I wouldn't have had to bribe them with all those exotic fruit snacks and chocolate laden macadamia nuts...straight-up money, drugs and sex would have been so much simpler.Money, drugs, sex... whatever got the play.
I can tell you who wants what. It's like that Foghorn Leghorn cartoon where the dog asks for a bone which he has to get from the cat who wants a fish owned by a mouse who wants some cheese... all this so he can get that little baby chicken hawk eradicated by the dog. The staff at paizo is no different. They each have their special desires. Just avoid declaring aloud which staff member you think wants the bone.
at the very least I hope you know turkeys can't fly . . .
Damnit!
::cuts Dire Turkey Aerial Strike Force from the manuscript of "Gobble Days of Doom." Then looks over manuscript and tears it to pieces in fury as tears well in his eyes...::
Double Damnit!
::Remembers magic word "payola" and begins taping manuscript together and heaping piles of cocaine between its pages, all while picking out revealing lacy garments to wear on next trip to Seattle...::
HA HAH!
Mr. Logue, if only you watched more WKRP, you would have already known about this . . . at the very least I hope you know turkeys can't fly . . .
What a great episode.
Baby, if you've ever wondered... wondered whatever became of me... I'm living on the air in Cincinatti... Cincinatti, WKRP.
Mr. Logue, if only you watched more WKRP, you would have already known about this . . . at the very least I hope you know turkeys can't fly . . .What a great episode.
Baby, if you've ever wondered... wondered whatever became of me... I'm living on the air in Cincinatti... Cincinatti, WKRP.
Whew I'm feeling my moniker of "Young Master" now. Didn't that show play in the 40's or there-abouts?
Yet everytime I see porn, I think to myself that at least one of the actors looks just like the lead guy in WKRP...odd.
Whew I'm feeling my moniker of "Young Master" now. Didn't that show play in the 40's or there-abouts?
Yeah... Dr. Johnny Zootsuit and Loni Garbo.
Thooooooooose were the days!
Yet everytime I see porn, I think to myself that at least one of the actors looks just like the lead guy in WKRP...odd.
Your porn collection must be older than me. Ooo, the pale hairiness. Did I just vomit a little in my mouth?
Yet everytime I see porn, I think to myself that at least one of the actors looks just like the lead guy in WKRP...odd.Your porn collection must be older than me. Ooo, the pale hairiness. Did I just vomit a little in my mouth?
lol!
I threw out my collection years ago...it didn't travel well. Now I am pornless in Honolulu. I mean, now I am a respectable upstanding citizen.
I threw out my collection years ago...it didn't travel well. Now I am pornless in Honolulu. I mean, now I am a respectable upstanding citizen.
I'm seeing a screenplay. A man loses his collection in Honolulu and decides he's going to travel to debauched LA or SF on the back on a blow up doll life raft in search of replenishment. He's got to be insane of course.
It'll be like Hanks with Wilson in Castaway only things will get decidedly hotter.