Hey All!
Many great points here, especially about how the Paths offer up a wide variety of different gaming experiences. Bullywug is a hackfest (though there are plenty of opportunities to Storytell it up as pointed out in the other thread...oh, and the dinosaur is there because the pirates at Kraken's Cove deal in exotic animal and monster smuggling by the way), and Sea Wyvern is a yak-fest, and Here There Be Monsters is the ultimate overland journey fraught with terror.
What's fun about the Path for me is that I find myself reading these genres of adventure I wouldn't usually be into (like hackfests, I am actually a 100% Storyteller too) and suddenly being like "I see how that can be a lot of fun too!" This is cool. I would normally look at an overland travel adventure and think "SNORE!" But I look at Here There Be Monsters and I think "Man, I would love to run this adventure, or play in it!" I like expanding my boundaries as a gamer.
If you've given them a chance and just hate em, then Gris, they are just not your cup of tea and that's totally cool, but maybe give that stupid isle adventure from AoW another look and think of it as an Epic Quest adventure that ends in the PCs being hurtled back in time to see, in the past, what the future may hold in store if they fail to stave off the Age of Worms. If you still hate it, I won't be hurt or anything, sometimes people don't like things and that's totally cool. Either way, I hope you continue to get a lot of enjoyment out of Dungeon, I know I do! Good gaming to you sir!
Thanks very much for this interesting discussion, and the arguments, and good game to everybody!
PS: When I think about it now, I realized I should have posted in another section. Sorry, next time will be the right time ! :)
Black Moria, it's cool to see that two guys who don't share the same opinion can talk like adults and with respect - I appreciate that!
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Storyteller
100%
Character Player
75%
Casual Gamer
60%
Weekend Warrior
50%
Tactician
45%
Power Gamer
35%
Specialist
15%
Hey hey this quizz was funny ! And the results don't surprise me that much after all.
About MArco Volo, I definitely push you to play this great trilogy, which was much funnier and lively that the usual "Cave of the Demon-orc with 1000 zombie guards from hell and beyond" we got served and continue to get served nowadays....
Might I make a suggestion? Perhaps you should look at the White Wolf Storyteller system. based on the #'s above, I think that you would probably really enjoy it.
I have noticed a bit of a low in the story in the AP's so far. I mean they are all interesting and make sense when you read the adventure background in the magazines... but from the players perspective it is hard to get the picture (I am dming aow right now and its kinda repetitive, "we have to do this cause there are a lot of worms showing up.......).
I am sort of bored with campaigns where a god is trying to come back, or some sort of prophecy is involved ect. As a DM and a player I dont think it works when you give the players some nightmare prophecy... they dont know what to do, they dont know if there dreams are real... and it is all a big cliche.
My next campaign will have more player oriented motivations... Maybe some army will attack the town they live in... Maybe someone will kill a PC's mom. Maybe before they can achieve level 2 they all have to go out and prove themselves by accomplishing some task. Maybe the lure of gold can be so enticing at later levels that the reason the players attack a dragon will be just to get to its treasure!
Yeah, I think I am done with evil gods for a while :) That is of course right after we finish AOW (we are on prince of redhand right now..)
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
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Because I'd like to know why everybody is so positive about it and because this concept could be really cool if done with more...creativity ?
It's like for example when I discuss about football (I admit I am a football lunatic) on the Buffalo Bills board.
Football might be useful example of why some people enjoy dungeon crawls (including myself). You say it's boring and been done before and you want something more creative. I would say a lot of people would say the same about football - once you've seen a few hundred games, what do you get out of the next game? Obviously, you get something out of it, even though it is essentially the same as any other football game. What is different, of course, is what happens in THIS game.
Just an example, not saying you are wrong to not enjoy the APs, or to enjoy football (which I do too).
Russ
To NorthernOkie, BigDaddyG, Mothman and Aureus,
In comments about Mage Armor...I, like BigDaddyG, hail from many years of many games. I can not seem to remember every single rule, so the one thing I do is look back into the books from time to time to refreshen my mind... First to page 249 of the PHB. The Spell Mage Armor proves a +4 ARMOR bonus to AC. It doesn't say deflecting bonus... It further goes on to state that armor does not stack from effects of such spells as mage armor, nor do shields stack with spells that provide shield bonus....
Don't mean to sound like a jerk, but when you have the books and don't understand something, it just takes a little bit of research to get the correct answer.
And when one mis-interprets he should have the wisdom to acknowledge it....you are so very correct! It's amazing how one small word in a spell description slipped right by me. <sigh> And here I thought I was understanding this d20 thing. :-) Thank you for a well-documented post!
Now, back to the Savage Tide!!!
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I never got excited about all of this and don't really know why dms/gamers are so into it. Could somebody explain me what's so great about this? What's so cool compared to true diamonds like the Marco Volo trilogy or the Temple of Elemental Evil (by the way the only dungeon I ever found appealing and interesting)
Just so I'm clear...
You don't like dungeon hackfests, but you DID like ToEE? That's the only module I've ever DM'd where the players just gave up out of sheer apathy. To be fair, we were in high school at the time, so I may have overlooked some of the role playing possibilities, but once we got away from Homlet and the moathouse, the whole thing turned into the biggest snorefest since Ruins of Undermountain (i.e. a series of random dungeon rooms strung together with an even more random assortment of monsters and treasure). To this day, we still refer to it as the Temple of Elemental Boredom.
Come to think of it, maybe there's an idea there. I'm picturing the MM entry for the Boredom Para-Elemental as we speak...
Well , I experienced the Temple as a player, and I was lucky to have a DM who turned it into something more like "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" rather than "Supreme Hackfest festival - the definitive collection" , so I guess that's why I'm still fond of this good old dungeon.
Sometimes, I totally agree that these dungeoncrawl adventures can provide you with good working material.
If you take "The City of the Spider-Queen" for example, it's basically a shitty dungeoncrawl with 1250 areas and a loose plot to link them all, with the usual god/spellcaster/archwarrior badass who is very angry because somebody ate his breakfast in secret and wants the world to pay for it...But authors also included a drow city, several parties with different objectives and mentalities. Wipe out the dungeoncrawl/XP hunting , and you can get one of the greatest diplomacy/espionnage campaign ever, really.
I dmd it my way, and my players seldomly had to fight, they were too busy trying to elaborate alliances with or against the parties involved ! Great fun.
So my argument is that D&D can be much more than a hack n'slash simulator, and that if authors/editorial politic/common opinion of what forms a good game was a bit leveled up and pushed towards creativity, we would definitely have real masterpieces every morning, because 90% of what I read makes me think : "Could have been great, too bad we have this shite crawling stuff all over again" !
**RANT MODE WARNING**
Alright I am getting a little tired of the back and forth debate on whether STAP or all AP suck or not. It's like the black jelly beans you either love or hate them . . . or you’re like the rest of us that eat them anyway and make a funny face. What I'd like to see is an exchange of ideas on how DMs can make the AP the best it can be.
COME ON PEOPLE!!! To be perfectly honest I have never ran any premade adventure EXACTLY as written (well maybe some made by Kenzer & Company). The writers in Dungeon are not J.R.Tolkens they are not espers that read your players’ minds and give you detailed well thought out alternatives with every possible outcome. Chances are they’re regular Slubs that have a Crummy jobs, Game on the weekends, and thought MAYBE just MAYBE it would be nice if other fellow gamers would have fun playing a game based on a rough outline on a really fun adventure THEY had.
That’s ALL an AP is people a rough outline of an adventure, a bare bones skeleton with a tiny amount of info to give struggling or burned out DMs an idea on what to do with their P.Cs. Its not a magic pill. . .that will solve all your campaign needs.
**RANT MODE END**
Now here some constructive advice I had used in my campaign that might help flesh out the adventure:
The eldest daughter of house Knowlorn (Aristocrat 1/Expert 3/ Enchanter 3) is kidnapped and the players happen to be at the right place at the right time. Either witnessing the kidnapping or the party Ranger notices that a strange Puffin wearing a jeweled coller (her familiar) wants the P.C to follow it to where she is being held. If the P.Cs save her they might not only score points with a powerful noble house but also the daughter might develop a Crush on one of her rescuers.
Lady Aribani is holding a party and the P.Cs are invited. Unfortunately some Drow slave traders have heard of her Dark Elf blood claims and if there one thing they cant stand it’s a wannabe. They infiltrate the party and plan to enslave everyone.
A renowned Effigy Master is visiting the city and heard of the exotic animals on sale in the black market. He hires the P.Cs to be his bodyguards and or black market contacts to procure specimens to aid in his Construct research. While there the curiosity of the Effigy Master gets everyone in trouble whether getting too close to the dangerous animals or witnessing a backdoor deal a Black Marketeer is will to kill to keep secret.
These side adventures are not outline in the AP there thing I thought would be fun and give opportunities for the much coveted Role Play scenarios. The problem is I have or will be using those posted above I’d like additional ideas from other people to make the game better. It’s a long way to 20th & I’d appreciate any additional ideas to make the game MORE enjoyable. That’s why I joined these Messageboards.
Long story short, the stowaway angle is too great to pass up. I am replacing Rowyn with Neiman Roblach the taxedermist. He went invisible when the PCs confronted him, and they literally held the door open for him to escape. He's going to be a Illusionist5/Rogue1 (from his time on the steet dodging leftover Lotus Dragons), unless I come up with something more cool.
Hey - Me too! My group had major problems with him the first time and he escaped. Here he is at CR8 (which is where Rowyn was at... Plz forgive any stat errors).
He's pretty nasty while diguised as another passenger and *suggesting* a lone character on watch might wish to swim to shore to collect fruit (while the ship continues to sail on)... :
Nemien Roblach
Male human illusionist/3, master specialist/5
CE Medium Humanoid
Init: +2; Senses: Listen: +3, Spot +3
Languages: Aquan, Common, Draconic
AC* 16, touch 16, flat-footed 14
hp 40* (8 HD)
Fort* +8, Ref +8, Will +12
*false life, heroism, mage armor
Spd 30ft
Melee sickle +5 melee (1d4-1)
Ranged ray +7 ranged touch
Space 5 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Base Atk +3; Grp +2
Combat Gear wand of ray of enfeeblement (24 chgs), wand of mage armor (14 chgs), bag of tricks/tan (10 creatures/week)
Spells Prepared (CL 8th; 5/6/5/5/3)
4th - enervation, dimension door, greater invisibility
3rd - shadow binding x2 (SC182) (wDC19), suggestion x2 (wDC16), still mirror image
2nd - touch of idiocy x2, phantasmal assailants (wDC18) x2, minor image (wDC18)
1st - color spray x2 (wDC17), shield, pro/good, true strike x2
0 - daze (wDC13) x3, message, resistance
Scrolls
4th - stoneskin
3rd - heroism (used), nondetection
2nd - mirror image, false life (used)
1st - ventriloquism, shield x2
Prohibited Schools transmutation, evocation
Abilities Str 8, Dex 14, Con 10, Int 16, Wis 12, Cha 14
SQ summon familiar (rat named Theophilies)
Feats Combat Casting, Craft Wondrous Item, Scribe ScrollB, Spell Focus/Illusion, Still Spell
Skills* Concentration +17, Bluff +7, Disguise +17, Knowledge/Arcana +8, Knowledge/Nature +8, Profession/Taxidermist +7, Spellcraft +14
Possessions combat gear, scroll w/explosive runes (rDC15), mwk sickle, four pearls (100gp each), key ring, hat of disguise, bag of tricks/tan (10 creatures/week)
Spellbook as above plus; 0 - all; 1st - alarm, disguise self, identify, mage armor, ray of enfeeblement, unseen servant, shield; 2nd - arcane lock, magic mouth, see invisibility, invisibility, minor image, hypnotic pattern; 3rd - heroism, explosive runes; 4th - stoneskin, invisibility/greater
Theophilies CR ¼ CE Tiny Magical Beast (familiar) Init: +2; Senses: low light vision, scent, Listen: +1, Spot +1 Languages: None (empathy) AC 18, touch 14, flat-footed 16 hp 20 (8 HD) Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +7; improved evasion Spd 15ft ; climb 15ft; swim 15ft Melee bite +9 melee (1d3-4) or touch +9 Ranged none Space 2½ ft.; Reach 0 ft. Base Atk +3; Grp –9 Abilities Str 2, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 9, Wis 12, Cha 2 SQ share spells, empathic link, deliver touch spells Feats Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus/Bite, Improved Toughness Skills Balance +10, Climb +12, Concentration +8, Hide +16, Knowledge/Arcana +4, Knowledge/Nature +4, Move Silently +14, Spellcraft +6, Swim +10
We havent started yet, which is horrible.
Due to work and family stuff our group can only play on monday nights now, unless we play without one of our friends and we really would miss his being there an awful lot so we dont play without him. Whats worse is we can only play once every other week now as well.
Getting old sucks.
After almost a year without D&D(although I do DM online for NWN-NeverwinterNights) I have to say I am very excited about starting a new group in the Savage Tide. My last party ending rather quickly on the A.o.W when they foolishly tried to storm the tower of the exiled artist and a Mordenkainen's disruption spell ruined the party's day (for about 9 months I guess you could say). Now I have a party of 6, 2 of the players are coming from said adventure with hopes in mind of completing this one. At the present time after one session the party has boarded the Blue Nixie in hopes of recovering the vessel for Lavinia. The party had ended the last session with the many of the thugs abandoning ship as the wizard of the group opened the door to the cargo hold revieling the rhagodessa munching upon the remains of common thug. One session into the AP and things are looking promising-I'm hopeful at least =)
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Just started the Bullywug Gambit (part 2) of the adventure path. The characters are right in the middle of dealing with the mutated creatures in Kraken's Cove.
My players didn't have any real trouble with the first part, There is No Honor, although getting all my PCs to do any real research is always a chore (Half of them are more into the tactical combat aspect of the game, and the other half likes to role play. Pretty good balance, overall, but if there's no combat for a length of time, you can see the bored looks and I have to change tactics a bit to keep it fun for everyone).
It's been real interesting because one of the PCs came up with a backstory that he's the illegitimate son of the Harbormaster, Keltar Islaran. When he came back to Sasserine at the end of TINH and found out what happened to his father before he could meet him, it got personal for him...
We've also got a pair of twin Dwarven brothers (I know, this isn't likely, but it was a cool idea, so I went with it) who are gladiators in the arena of the Champion's District. Their reputation precedes them, and they're local celebrities. After all, how many Dwarven twins are there? They've even got a half-orc groupie following around...
I think the most difficult part for the party was dealing with the perils of Parrot Island. The Huecuva nearly killed them. Other than that, no worries. The code for opening the family vault concerned me, but they figured it out in no time.
One thing to be prepared for if you're DMing the path: You may have to boost Rowyn a bit. We have a 7 person gaming group, and by the time they leveled up and reached her in TINH, she wasn't much of a challenge for them as written. I made her a Rogue 4/Bard 3 and it was more of a challenge. She barely escaped with her life to torment them in the future!
I'd love to know how other DMs/Players are doing on this path. Post some of your more interesting situations.
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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We havent started yet, which is horrible.
Due to work and family stuff our group can only play on monday nights now, unless we play without one of our friends and we really would miss his being there an awful lot so we dont play without him. Whats worse is we can only play once every other week now as well.
Getting old sucks.
I'm with you on that. We play weekly, but it's rare for our entire group to be able to get together every week. But we all still need our D&D jones...
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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**RANT MODE WARNING**
Alright I am getting a little tired of the back and forth debate on whether STAP or all AP suck or not. It's like the black jelly beans you either love or hate them . . . or you’re like the rest of us that eat them anyway and make a funny face. What I'd like to see is an exchange of ideas on how DMs can make the AP the best it can be.COME ON PEOPLE!!! To be perfectly honest I have never ran any premade adventure EXACTLY as written (well maybe some made by Kenzer & Company). The writers in Dungeon are not J.R.Tolkens they are not espers that read your players’ minds and give you detailed well thought out alternatives with every possible outcome. Chances are they’re regular Slubs that have a Crummy jobs, Game on the weekends, and thought MAYBE just MAYBE it would be nice if other fellow gamers would have fun playing a game based on a rough outline on a really fun adventure THEY had.
That’s ALL an AP is people a rough outline of an adventure, a bare bones skeleton with a tiny amount of info to give struggling or burned out DMs an idea on what to do with their P.Cs. Its not a magic pill. . .that will solve all your campaign needs.
**RANT MODE END**Now here some constructive advice I had used in my campaign that might help flesh out the adventure:
The eldest daughter of house Knowlorn (Aristocrat 1/Expert 3/ Enchanter 3) is kidnapped and the players happen to be at the right place at the right time. Either witnessing the kidnapping or the party Ranger notices that a strange Puffin wearing a jeweled coller (her familiar) wants the P.C to follow it to where she is being held. If the P.Cs save her they might not only score points with a powerful noble house but also the daughter might develop a Crush on one of her rescuers.
Lady Aribani is holding a party and the P.Cs are invited. Unfortunately some Drow slave traders have heard of her Dark Elf blood claims and if there one thing they cant stand it’s a wannabe. They...
I'm using an angle regarding the Church of the Whirling Fury. I've got a Paladin who is a member of the organization, and I've been giving him information about a possible demonic infiltration at a plantation just to the south of Sasserine. I plan on it being a "haunted house" encounter with ties to Malcanthet, and it will make a nice fill-in adventure between parts 2 and 3 of the STAP.
Hope this helps!
I just started my group on There is No Honor. They managed to get through The Blue Nixie and the Vanderboren Vault. The group is made up of :
1 elf rogue,
1 elf wizard,
1 human swashbuckler/bard
I also added a healer as a DMPC to give them some healing. All characters started at level 2 with a 32 points build.
How is it going? Pretty well. There were a few close calls, especially with the Rhagodessa in the cargo hold, but the players enjoyed the game very much. I did not play the vault to its full potential, but again, the players had a lot of fun, and that's what counts.
I'm using an angle regarding the Church of the Whirling Fury. I've got a Paladin who is a member of the organization, and I've been giving him information about a possible demonic infiltration at a plantation just to the south of Sasserine. I plan on it being a "haunted house" encounter with ties to Malcanthet, and it will make a nice fill-in adventure between parts 2 and 3 of the STAP.
Hope this helps!
Thanks Lichman that IS a good angle for a side quest. I had the P.C meet a NPC wild elf barbarian thats actually a weretiger with the idea of him becomeing a Champion of Gwynharwyf im sure he could point them in the right direction. They could break up a Cult of Demogorgon. Maybe face off against a Bulezau thats summoned. . .Hmmmm (the sound of wheels turning)
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Owner - Johnny Scott Comics and Games
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Thanks Lichman that IS a good angle for a side quest. I had the P.C meet a NPC wild elf barbarian thats actually a weretiger with the idea of him becomeing a Champion of Gwynharwyf im sure he could point them in the right direction. They could break up a Cult of Demogorgon. Maybe face off against a Bulezau thats summoned. . .Hmmmm (the sound of wheels turning)
Let me know how it goes, and I'll do the same...
Wheels turning = trouble for PCs.
I personally find that so far Savage Tide seems to have a much stronger story, plotline call it what you will, than the earlier Adventure Paths. Certainly from the players perspective. AoW the players are pretty much in the dark and the early adventures seem hardly connected at all. With Savage Tide I'm seeing a strong link between adventures and plenty of recurring NPCs both as allies and villains. Then you've got the whole option of joining the Lotus Dragons and playing the campaign from a completely different angle.