It seems a little hypocritical to include the Latin name Diplodocus to refer to the dinosaur yet use the common name "Terror Bird" instead of Phorusrhacoid. Ironically, the list of common and draconic D&D names for dinosaurs includes just about every dinosaur EXCEPT the diplodocus (probably because the diplodocus originated in Dragon magazine). It would have been nice to see both names for both creatures.
And was their some type of mix up with the stat block for the diplodocus? This guy could easily wipe the floor with the three phorusrhacoids. Heck, with the extremely powerful tail sweep (for an ungodly Ref DC 26) this guy could probably go toe to toe with the T-Rex!
And The art does not depict a huge dinosaur.
Also, to be more scientifically accurate, phorusrhacoids were primarily scavengers in environments with larger predators. There's no reason they would be chasing even a baby diplodocus when the corpse of a T-Rex is nearby.
I may give these guys the savage template (and the T-Rex too). I'll also probably replace the dinosaur with the stats for a Reptilian Bison. I'll describe it as an undiscovered animal (Lizard Cow) that Urol wants to bring back to the Farshore. It can also serve as a pack mule in case Thunderstrike gets thunder (lizard) struck.
Creative Director
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Since maintaining the latin names for dinosaurs in D&D is one of my obsessions, I figure I'd reply.
The answer is that most people know what a diplodocus is. Not everyone knows what a phorusrhacoid (or a diatryma) is. That said, "terror bird" is in fact the real-world name for this type of creature, and is often used when speaking of them as a group. More to the point, when they were statted up in the Fiend Folio, that's the name they were given. I personally came VERY close to actually calling them diatrymas (or even axe beaks), but in the end decided to keep them terror birds. Mostly because the author's a big fan of the name, and partially because it IS a pretty cool name for the monsters.
As for the diplodocus' stat block, no, no typo. If the diplodocus were a braver creature and stood its ground, it probably WOULD wipe the floor with those angry birds, but as it turns out, the terror birds are also loud and angry and numerous, so the young diplodocus got frightened and ran. If the birds were unfortunate enough to corner it, it'd fight back and probably kill them all.
As for the art: The dinosaur depicted is in fact the animal companion of our iconic druid, a dinosaur that's appeared in a few other illustrations (notably the fight with Riplcaw in "Bullywug Gambit) with her. The fight illustrated is intended to be of the first terror bird encounter.
The T-rex corpse was not really all that nearby when the terror birds decided to chase the cowardly baby, by the way; that encounter happens 8–10 miles away from the beach.
Since maintaining the latin names for dinosaurs in D&D is one of my obsessions, I figure I'd reply.
I still quite honestly don't understand it. It is an opportunity lost to add more value to your magazine by adding just one name that could forever be used as a reference. Did you purposefully decide not to pursue this creative addition to the game?
The answer is that most people know what a diplodocus is.
Most characters wouldn't know.
Not everyone knows what a phorusrhacoid (or a diatryma) is.
Not everyone knows what a diplodocus is.
That said, "terror bird" is in fact the real-world name for this type of creature, and is often used when speaking of them as a group.
Nothing wrong with including both names. (Here come the violins about word count. Good grief it's one word!)
Mostly because the author's a big fan of the name, and partially because it IS a pretty cool name for the monsters.
I disagree. Personally I don't think the name is very cool. There will be a few snickers at my table at the words "terror birds".
The T-rex corpse was not really all that nearby when the terror birds decided to chase the cowardly baby, by the way; that encounter happens 8–10 miles away from the beach.
Yes, yes, but the fact remains that the fact that there are T-Rex's in the area (and their corpses) would historically favor these creatures as scavengers rather than predators.
Since maintaining the latin names for dinosaurs in D&D is one of my obsessions, I figure I'd reply.
The answer is that most people know what a diplodocus is. Not everyone knows what a phorusrhacoid (or a diatryma) is. That said, "terror bird" is in fact the real-world name for this type of creature, and is often used when speaking of them as a group. More to the point, when they were statted up in the Fiend Folio, that's the name they were given. I personally came VERY close to actually calling them diatrymas (or even axe beaks), but in the end decided to keep them terror birds. Mostly because the author's a big fan of the name, and partially because it IS a pretty cool name for the monsters.
As for the diplodocus' stat block, no, no typo. If the diplodocus were a braver creature and stood its ground, it probably WOULD wipe the floor with those angry birds, but as it turns out, the terror birds are also loud and angry and numerous, so the young diplodocus got frightened and ran. If the birds were unfortunate enough to corner it, it'd fight back and probably kill them all.
As for the art: The dinosaur depicted is in fact the animal companion of our iconic druid, a dinosaur that's appeared in a few other illustrations (notably the fight with Riplcaw in "Bullywug Gambit) with her. The fight illustrated is intended to be of the first terror bird encounter.
The T-rex corpse was not really all that nearby when the terror birds decided to chase the cowardly baby, by the way; that encounter happens 8–10 miles away from the beach.
James thanx for clearing the art question up, I was having trouble with the Illustration with the terror birds as well. I know my dinosaurs and In no way that was a baby Diplodocus In the pic. I don't mind the Terror Bird name so much,If there were no creature already described In a D&D book with that name I might have a problem, but otherwise no. I was thinking of replacing the Terrorbirds with my version of Bonesnappers(old FF).
Actually, phorusrhacoids were top-level predators, in a time when the ancestors of horses had lotsa toes and were the size of a beagle. They didn't have a lot of therapods around for competition since the mass extinction that ended the Mesozoic Era. They saw a niche and went for it.
That's exactly my point. As larger predators entered the picture they became scavnegers. In the Isle of Dread the "niche" you mention was already taken.
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Also, from vast firsthand experience with predators, the assumption that a carnivore will not chase a preybeast down and kill it when ample carrion is available is just wrong.
Try feeding a dog 4 pounds of racing meat, put a squirrel in the vacinity, and see what happens. The hunt/chase/kill instinct takes over completely. Nature makes her own logic, her own rules, her own law.
I still quite honestly don't understand it. It is an opportunity lost to add more value to your magazine by adding just one name that could forever be used as a reference. Did you purposefully decide not to pursue this creative addition to the game?
You know what I think is one of the neatest aspects of being the DM? You can change the details of the game to better suit you and your group's personal tastes.
I don't think anyone is going to do anything very bad to you if you decide to call the terror birds phorusrhacoids or diatrymas or axe beaks or even "fluffy running birds" if you'd like. And if you think historical evidence of their scavengerish nature outweighs the in-story fun of having giant monster birds go after a saurapod, you don't even have to have them as an encounter. (For the record, you're probably aware of the popular theory that T-Rexes were mostly scavengers as well... or that you probably wouldn't have apex predators the size of a T-rex on an island that small anyway... or that diplodici and phorusrhacoids never really lived at the same time... or that most people don't consider magic to be real.) :P
I think James gave some good points as to why he called the shots like he did. I think it's a bit silly to argue over this after his kind response. Even if he saw the error of his ways, the issue was published a few months ago and there's not much he can do about it now.
In the interest of nipping a potential flame war in the bud:
The editors at Dungeon and Dragon are hired as much for their ability to make creative decisions as for their knoweldge of the game or the English language. As much as we're servants and stewards of the game, its also our job to help steer it. Not every decision we make is going to be popular - that's why you're welcome to take them or leave them, mining each issue and cherrypicking the bits you like. But if we feel that using or omitting a given name makes a monster cooler, it's our prerogative and duty to do so.
I hate to sound heavy-handed - after all, we want to hear everyones feedback - but there's a difference between explaining why we made a choice and arguing it endlessly. So we're not going to. We made our call, and we'll stand by it.
-James S.
P.S: Plus, Latin dinosaur names are teh r0x0r.
Deja vu. Because it was such a great topic the first time :\
Honestly, my first impression was that the baby diploducus could wipe the floor with the monstrous chickens, but then I remembered that they are terribly cowardly as depicted in just about every dino movie I've seen that has them in it, I thought, "No, I can totally see that happening."
Boy, oh boy. Next month I get to look forward to Takasi nitpicking my contribution to the STAP. Yay!
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Deja vu. Because it was such a great topic the first time :\
Honestly, my first impression was that the baby diploducus could wipe the floor with the monstrous chickens, but then I remembered that they are terribly cowardly as depicted in just about every dino movie I've seen that has them in it, I thought, "No, I can totally see that happening."Boy, oh boy. Next month I get to look forward to Takasi nitpicking my contribution to the STAP. Yay!
It's true. The diplodocus could prolly whup them. But it is young, it is a herbivore. The instinct to flee is as viable a response as the instinct to fight.
Wouldn't a horse beat a dog in a fair fight? Why do horses run away from dogs?
OK, I think I've made my point about Common, Draconic and Latin names for critters. Latin makes no sense at all as we see from the use of "Terror Birds". Common names are better.
Anyway, I'm so glad that people fear that my two cents are going to bring the boards crashing into a blaze. We had a great time running Sea Wyvern's Wake last weekend and I'm prepping Here There Be (Chickens) for our next marathon game on 12/17. The crew had a blast with the monsters in Sea Wyvern and are expecting something extremely menacing from the Isle of Dread. The Swordtooth Titan will be awesome as will the rest of the encounters, but my gang will razz me a bit when they are stalked by giant prehistoric turkeys. I've been the butt of jokes before though, and as I said before I'm keeping the Terror Birds.
Urol will be referring to the Diplodocus as "Cow Lizard" though. :oP
I'm thinking I should just replace the sword beaks (old school Mystara/X1--they're sword beaks! Or Phororhacos.) with achaierai. I mean, how can I NOT do so when it's the perfect opportunity to use those two freakish, four-legged chicken minis I got in the Aberrations set! And then there's the joy of the "poo-poo cloud of death" those suckers can fire off....
OK, I think I've made my point about Common, Draconic and Latin names for critters. Latin makes no sense at all as we see from the use of "Terror Birds". Common names are better.
Oh, I think we got your point though I think you could have saved time by putting more like this:
I think it would have been cooler and easier to catagorize if folks just used the Latin names for all prehistoric creatures. What do you guys think?
Anyway, I'm so glad that people fear that my two cents are going to bring the boards crashing into a blaze.
I suppose that is something. And you do have a reputation to up hold for being banned places *cough*EnWorld*cough.*
And starting of by saying:
It seems a little hypocritical
probably continues that fine tradition. It's just me, but I think that could be read as a smooth back-handed attempt at:
You guys are being hypocrits.
At that point, I think you lost everyone who might have wanted to read on with a sympathetic ear.
And was their some type of mix up with the stat block for the diplodocus? This guy could easily wipe the floor with the three phorusrhacoids.
This one's not so bad, but after the opening salvo it reads more like:
Are you guys on crack!
Also, to be more scientifically accurate,...
Cause you guys aren't
I think is pretty much implied (even though I still don't get my desert dwelling fresh water squid back - life is cruel sometimes).
Then there is....
I still quite honestly don't understand it. It is an opportunity lost to add more value to your magazine by adding just one name that could forever be used as a reference. Did you purposefully decide not to pursue this creative addition to the game?
I read kinda like:
I don't get why you guys suck so bad? Did you purposefully suck, or are you just not creative?
Now granted that's my take, but there few other conclusions given the presentation.
Not everyone knows what a diplodocus is.
And not everyone knows know what the words "mordant," "facetious" and "derisive" mean either. (I do but that's another story.) The fact that one word might or might not be as well-known as another doesn't lend a lot of support for your argument. And the style of the presentation (especially after calling everyone an sucky, unimaginative hypocrit) is probably a bit too flip.
Nothing wrong with including both names. (Here come the violins about word count. Good grief it's one word!)
Assume. You must never Ass-U-Me, Charlie Brown. For my money it's probably more a matter of avoiding confusion. Why call a monster two different names, and one of them fairly similar to the monster they are chasing?
I disagree. Personally I don't think the name is very cool. There will be a few snickers at my table at the words "terror birds".
Personally, I like Heresey's kisses they work better for minis and you can let the players eat their kills.
Yes, yes, but the fact remains that the fact that there are T-Rex's in the area (and their corpses) would historically favor these creatures as scavengers rather than predators.
Yes, yes, and where do all the wandering monsters live? How can anyone support a large city completely underground? Dragons could never support their weight on such small wings, etc.... I guess that's why I play fantasy role-playing games and not National Geographic.
Mr. Moderator, you can delete me at any time, (I've made copies) ;)
G3
I'll start by saying thank you, James, for the clear and concise answer to what I interpreted as a provocative complaint by Takasi in the first place. That said, I'd like to throw my kindling on the flame war by saying I knew exactly what a diplodicus was but the terror birds gave me pause. I thought,"Do they mean axe beaks?" (sorry, a bit of old school sometimes clouds my brain). I totally would've been baffled by their latin name as I don't recall ever reading/hearing it. In fact, on another thread, a poster called the birds by their latin name in a comment about replacing them with something else and I had no clue what they were talking about. I went back and skimmed over the adventure and was still scratching my head. Oh well... bottom line, IMO, this is still an awesome adventure and this encounter in particular is one of my favorites.
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Wow GGG! That post was exactly how I read his post, with every bit of the condescension and self-righteous superiority. Thanks for typing out the conversion to common from the root language of "thinly veiled, self-important contempt". Helps some of the others to fully appreciate the full effect of his works.
My opinion is that this is a fantasy game, Latin isn't a root language in Greyhawk, Eborrin, or the Realms. Why would the writers feel a need to include the latin name also? I realize that Latin names have been included in the past but, from a campaign specific viewpoint, why? Elves didn't speak latin as far as I have heard, did other races? This is D&D not Discovery Channel. Educating the masses is not the writers' responsibilities. Providing info from a generic campaign viewpoint is.
My2, cause everyone has theirs.
FH
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Actually, phorusrhacoids were top-level predators, in a time when the ancestors of horses had lotsa toes and were the size of a beagle. They didn't have a lot of therapods around for competition since the mass extinction that ended the Mesozoic Era. They saw a niche and went for it.
Hey, Heathy - kudos. I'm impressed. Your not just a pretty face.
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Well, I did have to fact check quickly on Wikipedia.
Something I've noticed from the original X1 Isle of Dread:
the terror birds, dimetrodon, tyrannosaurus, and homo sapiens neanderthalensis all exist there. With the introduction of homo sapiens sapiens, the top tier predator of many a time period is represented.
It seems like an interesting potential tidbit for a retcon explanation. The place is an anachronistic menagerie; it couldn't possibly have "evolved" into its current state.
It's like the Costa Ricans say, the big tree falls and the little trees can get some sun, or something to that effect.
Wow GGG! That post was exactly how I read his post, with every bit of the condescension and self-righteous superiority. Thanks for typing out the conversion to common from the root language of "thinly veiled, self-important contempt". Helps some of the others to fully appreciate the full effect of his works.
3G's post was brilliant! Kudos :)
My opinion is that this is a fantasy game, Latin isn't a root language in Greyhawk, Eborrin, or the Realms. Why would the writers feel a need to include the latin name also? ...
Besides, what do people think will be happening on the Isle of Dread? Do all dinosaurs have tattoos on their necks of their proper Latin names? Come on! I'm sure the tattoos will be in Ancient Suel...
Regards all :)
Jack
...Did you purposefully decide not to pursue this creative addition to the game?
Nice gratuitous insult.
The answer is that most people know what a diplodocus is.
Most characters wouldn't know.
Characters won't have any name at all -- let's call them Lizard B rather than starting a fight over it (since, right from the first sentence, no one would mistake this thread for constructive criticism).
Not everyone knows what a phorusrhacoid (or a diatryma) is.
Not everyone knows what a diplodocus is.
Enough do to use the word. Is there a point to your statement?
That said, "terror bird" is in fact the real-world name for this type of creature, and is often used when speaking of them as a group.
Nothing wrong with including both names. (Here come the violins about word count. Good grief it's one word!)
You should have stopped with the first sentence -- the parenthetical statement simply reinforces prevailing opinion about you.
There are other good examples, but I'll stop here. Please try to review your posts before hitting Submit -- your good points get lost among the insults and accusations -- very often directed at a particular Dungeon staffer.
Regards,
Jack
Besides, what do people think will be happening on the Isle of Dread? Do all dinosaurs have tattoos on their necks of their proper Latin names? Come on! I'm sure the tattoos will be in Ancient Suel...
Jack
LOL - this gives me an image of all the dinosaurs on the island with little numbered metal clips attached to their ears (do most dinosaurs have external ears?), and some hidden enclave of scientists hiding in an illusion-concealed cave somewhere and scrying on them to figure out how so many anachronistic creatures survive side-by-side on the island...
...that we know of.
:P
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Personally I don't care what they call the creatures. Whether they call it a one-eyed one horned flying purple people eater, terror birds, or ixthomegolmaniacaeplurubusunumorumpasaurs, it is one amazing adventure. This AP gets better and better with each issue. Mucho kudos to the entire dungeon staff for one upping the AoW so far. I didn't think it was possible, but this adventure has everything. Pirates, dinosaurs, demons, cultists, a noble in distress, a giant plant monster reminiscent of the queen in aliens, tropical jungles, Abysm and lord knows what else. I don't care how you slice it, they are doing a kick ass job. I don't care what they call things so long as there is internal consistency. They have that, so the rest is gravy.
Personally I don't care what they call the creatures. Whether they call it a one-eyed one horned flying purple people eater, terror birds, or ixthomegolmaniacaeplurubusunumorumpasaurs, it is one amazing adventure. This AP gets better and better with each issue. Mucho kudos to the entire dungeon staff for one upping the AoW so far. I didn't think it was possible, but this adventure has everything. Pirates, dinosaurs, demons, cultists, a noble in distress, a giant plant monster reminiscent of the queen in aliens, tropical jungles, Abysm and lord knows what else. I don't care how you slice it, they are doing a kick ass job. I don't care what they call things so long as there is internal consistency. They have that, so the rest is gravy.
HERE HERE! What is in a name - and if you don't like the name, exercise your right as the DM to CHANGE it, instead of belly aching about it! What would be easier? Changing the name and moving on with life? Or typing out a long rude post?
Kudos to GGG and Tatterdemalion, you guys have summer up my feelings exactly. I have little patience for pedantic whiners.
James, this AP is the best one yet, and it gets better with each adventure! Keep up the good work!
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Creative Director
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The argument that one shouldn't use dinosaur names in D&D because there's no Latin in D&D is broken at the base. Using this logic, we wouldn't have coyotes in the game either, since D&D doesn't have native american languages. For that matter, it wouldn't have humans, since D&D doesn't have english in it.
But guess what? Everyone who PLAYS D&D speaks one of these real world languages, so when a D&D book is produced, we use those languages to get the ideas across. Words like tyrannosaurus or velociraptor may have latin roots, but they've pretty much become English words through use. As for terror birds; like wolly mammoths or sabre-tooth tigers or dire wolves, they're in a category of megafauna who are NOT generally called by their scientific names, unlike dinosaurs, who are very rarely called by their translated names.
As for why we didn't just call them axe beaks... the axe beak has already been done up in 3rd edition; they appeared in the Arms and Equipment Guide as a mount. A CR 1 mount. So they'd hardly make good targets for a 7th level party to tangle with. Of course, as statted up, they're a bit overpowered at CR 1. We certianly could have updated the axe beak to 3.5 in the adventure, but we would have had to rebuild it as a CR 1 creature in keeping with its presentation as an exotic but not overpowering mount, as presented in AaEG. The simpler answer was to go with the terror bird, which of course had a different problem (it's pretty weak for a CR 4 critter, so we gave him a few kick attacks to fix that).
But guess what? Everyone who PLAYS D&D speaks one of these real world languages, so when a D&D book is produced, we use those languages to get the ideas across. Words like tyrannosaurus or velociraptor may have latin roots, but they've pretty much become English words through use. As for terror birds; like wolly mammoths or sabre-tooth tigers or dire wolves, they're in a category of megafauna who are NOT generally called by their scientific names, unlike dinosaurs, who are very rarely called by their translated names.
I must say I agree as well. If you were to tell your players "And then from the foliage bursts a Tyrant Lizard!" most players would blink and say "...what?" and presume some type of strange Pokemon just charged them.
This entire debate has reached the point of absurdity, allow them to use what terms they feel are best and if you find them absolutely intolerable then change them for your own game, perhaps mention here what you felt was more appropriate and then let it lie.
~ Bryon ~
Despite all this discussion, I'm likely to forego all but the most well-known dinosaur names -- in most cases, a rough description will be it. That way my players will bring less OOC knowledge to the table.
Jack
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Creative Director
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Despite all this discussion, I'm likely to forego all but the most well-known dinosaur names -- in most cases, a rough description will be it. That way my players will bring less OOC knowledge to the table.
Jack
That's actually the best way to handle ANY encounter in D&D, even if it's with an orc, and ESPECIALLY in the first encounter with a new creature the group's never encountered before. Describe the creature's shape, smell, sounds, etc. as it appears and attacks. Let the players figure it out, or let them make some Knowledge checks to do the work for them.
You could make up some Olman names for them.
What's a Xabo Xachitli?
Oh. Anatosaurus. They're harmless..right?
Antosaurus? They're always underfoot at dinosaur picnics, right?
Just want to add that D&D provides most Common, Draconic and Latin names for dinosaurs, whether you like it or not.
Most that is. Diplodocus does not have a Common or Draconic name. Adding those two small words into the page count would have increased the reference value of this adventure.
I've decided to change the diplodocus stats to a bison stats (and general appearance) to make it a more sympathetic creature.
I've also removed the elite terror bird encounter. Three chicken encounters are too many for the style of our group.
I'm statting up some beefed up versions (anyone else notice the lack of scaling sidebars recently?) and have a few questions.
For the savage template, it says the creature must be "intelligent". If you apply the fiendish template to an animal to make it a magical beast (bumping its int to 3) could it qualify?
Whether it can or not I'm probably going to make the dinosaurs, chickens and gargoyles savage.
For the bar'lguras, do you think it's better to increase their hit dice and make them large or to give them class levels?
I gave the spirit naga a few levels of sorcerer and made them stack with its inherent spellcasting ability. I plan on vastly increasing the size of room 13 of the Demogorgon Shrine area.
I'm also trying to make a mob of savage fiendish baboons (in addition to the ones here on the boards of course -- just kidding mods!). Any comments? I did these rather quickly so I'm sure there are a few mistakes. I'm running these against 10 players with cohorts, action points, Eberron material and 32 point buy:
Fiendish Savage Tyrannosaurus CR 11
CE Huge Magical Beast (chaotic)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent, Listen +14, Spot +14
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AC 16, touch 9, flat-footed 15
hp 232 (20 HD); DR 10/magic
Resist acid 10, fire 10, cold 10
Immune disease, exhaustion, fatigue, mind-affecting, stunning, pain-related effects
SR 25, PR 25
Fort +19, Ref +13, Will +10
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Spd 50 ft.
Melee bite +23 (3d6+16 [25])
Space 15 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Base Atk +14; Grp +33
Atk options improved grab, swallow whole, smite good (+20 damage)
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Abilities Str 32, Dex 12, Con 25, Int 1, Wis 15, Cha 10
SQ death throes (free bite upon death, 5' burst acid for 3d6 [15] acid ref dc 15), ferocity (fight while disabled or dying)
Feats Alertness, Improved Natural Attack (bite), Run, Toughness (3), Track
Skills Hide -2, Listen +14, Spot +14
Fiendish Savage Terror Birds CR 7
CE Large Magical Beast (chaotic)
Init +7; Senses low-light vision; Listen +2, Spot +2
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AC 17, touch 12, flat-footed 14
hp 94 (9 HD); DR 5/magic
Resist acid 10, fire 10, cold 10
Immune disease, exhaustion, fatigue, mind-affecting, stunning, pain-related effects
SR 14, PR 14
Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +5
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Spd 60 ft.
Melee bite +12 (2d6+7 [15]) and
2 claws +10 (1d4+2 [5])
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Base Atk +6; Grp +14
Atk Options improved grab (bite), smite evil (+9 damage)
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Abilities Str 24, Dex 17, Con 19, Int 1, Wis 14, Cha 10
SQ death throes (free bite upon death, 5' burst acid for 2d6 acid ref dc 15), ferocity (fight while disabled or dying)
Feats Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Skill Focus (Hide), Improved Natural Attack (bite)
Skills Hide +8, Move Silently +7
Colossal Monstrous Centipedes CR 9
N Colossal vermin
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., Listen +0, Spot +4
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AC 20, touch 4, flat-footed 18
hp 132 (24 HD)
Immune vermin traits
Fort +15, Ref +9, Will +8
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Spd 40 ft., climb 40 ft.
Melee bite +18 (4d6+12 [25] plus poison Fort DC 23, 2d6 dex)
Space 20 ft., Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +18; Grp +42
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Abilities Str 27, Dex 13, Con 12, int - , Wis 10, Cha 2
Feats -
Skills Climb +16, Hide -7, Spot +4
Advanced Mummies CR 9
LE Large Undead
Init -1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., Listen +12, Spot +12
Aura despair (sight, DC 17 will or paralyzed for 1d4 rounds)
Languages Common
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AC 20, touch 8, flat-footed 20
hp 110 (16 HD); DR 5/-
Immune undead traits
Vulnerable fire
Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +12
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Spd 20 ft.
Melee slam +18/+13 (1d8+14 [20] plus mummy rot fort DC 17, 1d6 con and 1d6 cha)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 10 ft.
Base Atk +8; Grp +19
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Abilities Str 36, Dex 8, Con -, Int 6, Wis 14, Cha 17
Feats Alertness, Great Fortitude, Toughness
Skills Hide +11, Listen +12, Move Silently +11, Spot +12
Advanced Black Pudding CR 10
N Huge Ooze
Init -5; Senses blindsight 60 ft.
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AC 5, touch 5, flat-footed 5
hp 265 (16 HD)
Immune ooze traits
Fort +11, Ref +0, Will +0
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Spd 20 ft., climb 20 ft.
Melee slam +19 (3d6+10 [20] plus 3d6 [10] acid, Ref DC 23 or weapons and armor destroyed)
Space 20 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +12; Grp +23
Atk Options improved grab, constrict (3d6+10 [20] plus 3d6 [10] acid)
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Abilities Str 25, Dex 1, Con 28, Int -, Wis 1, Cha 1
SQ split (any slashing and piercing damage)
Feats -
Skills Climb +17
Huge Monstrous Crabs CR 7
N Huge vermin (aquatic)
Init +0; Senses low-light vision, scent; Listen +0, Spot +4
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AC 22, touch 8, flat-footed 22
hp 81 (12 HD)
Fort +6, Ref +2, Will +2
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Spd 30 ft.
Melee 2 claws +14 (2d6+7 [15])
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +9; Grp +28
Atk Options constrict (4d6+7 [20]), improved grab (claw)
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Abilities Str 25, Dex 11, Con 14, Int -, Wis 11, Cha 2
SQ amphibious
Feats Toughness
Hide +0, Move Silently +4
Savage Advanced Gargoyles CR 7
CN Large monstrous humanoid (earth, chaotic)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., Listen +4, Spot +4
Languages Common, Terran
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AC 18, touch 10, flat-footed 18
hp 87 (7 HD); DR 10/magic
Resist acid 10
Immune disease, exhaustion, fatigue, mind-affecting, stunning, pain-related effects
Fort +10, Ref +6, Will +5
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Spd 40 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
Melee 2 claws +15 (1d8+8 [15]) and
bite +11 (1d8+6 [10]) and
gore +11 (2d6+6 [15])
Base Atk +7; Grp +19
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Abilities Str 27, Dex 12, Con 26, int 1, Wis 11, Cha 7
SQ freeze (spot DC 20 to see if it's alive), death throes (free bite upon death, 5' burst acid for 2d6 acid ref dc 15), ferocity (fight while disabled or dying)
Feats Multiattack, Improved Natural Attack (claws), Improved Natural Attack (gore)
Skills Hide +4 (+12 near stone), Listen +4, Spot +4
Quotoctoa CR 11
Male savage advanced gargoyle barbarian 3
CE Large monstrous humanoid (earth, chaotic)
Init +4; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Listen +5, Spot +5
Languages Common, Terran
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AC 24, touch 12, flat-footed 24; uncanny dodge
hp 140 (10 HD); DR 10/magic and 5/adamantine
Resist acid 10
Immune disease, exhaustion, fatigue, mind-affecting, stunning, pain-related effects
Fort +11, Ref +9, Will +6
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Spd 60 ft., fly 60 ft. (average)
Melee 2 claws +21 (1d8+11 [15]) and
bite +19 (1d8+9 [15]) and
gore +19 (1d8+9 [15])
Base Atk +10; Grp +25
Atk Options Improved Bull Rush, Power Attack, Rage 1/day
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Abilities Str 32, Dex 16, Con 28, int 1, Wis 13, Cha 4
SQ fast movement, freeze, illiteracy, trap sense +1, death throes (free bite upon death, 5' burst acid for 2d6 acid ref dc 15), ferocity (fight while disabled or dying)
Feats Improved Bull Rush, Multiattack, Power Attack, Improved Natural Attack (claws)
Skills Hide +9 (+17 near stone), Intimidate +0, Listen +5, Spot +5
Possessions bracers of armor +4, gargoyle crown, 10 gold rings worth 50 gp each
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Rage
hp 160
AC 18, touch 12, flat-footed 18
Fort +13, Will +8
Melee 2 claws +23 (1d8+13 [20]) and
bite +21 (1d8+11 [15]) and
gore +21 (1d8+11 [15])
Grp +27
Abilities Str 36, Con 32
Mob of Fiendish Savage Baboons CR 9
CE Gargantuan magical beast (extraplanar, mob of Medium magical beasts)
Init +0; Senses darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision, scent; Listen +4, Spot +4
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AC 9, touch 8, flat-footed 7
hp 225 (30 HD)
Resist acid 10, cold 5, fire 5; SR 6
Immune disease, exhaustion, fatigue, mind-affecting, stunning, pain-related effects
Fort +18, Ref +19, Will +9
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Spd 30 ft., climb 20 ft.
Melee mob (5d6 [20])
Space 20 ft.; Reach 0 ft.
Base Atk +22; Grp +38
Atk Options Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun, expert grappler (attack other targets while grappling, never flat-footed), trample (2d6+3)
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Abilities Str 19, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 1, Wis 10, Cha 4
SQ mob anatomy, death throes (free bite when damaged, 5' burst acid for 1d6 [15] acid ref dc 15)
Feats Alertness, Improved Bull Rush, Improved Overrun
Skills Climb +10, Listen +4, Spot +4
Spirit Naga CR 12
Female spirit naga sorcerer 3
CE Large Aberration
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft., Listen +14, Spot +14
Aura charming gaze (charm person, 30 ft radius, Will DC 22)
Languages Abyssal and Common
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AC 15, touch 9, flat-footed 15
hp 95 (12 HD)
Immune poison
Fort +8, Ref +7, Will +13
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Spd 40 ft.
Melee bite +9 (2d6+6 [15] plus poison fort dc 20, 1d8 con)
Base Atk +7; Grp +15
Spell Known (CL 10th, +7 ranged touch)
5th (4/day) - Greater Dimension Door
4th (6/day) - Lesser Globe of Invulnerability, Stoneskin
3rd (7/day) - fireball (Ref DC 19, 10d6 [35] fire), displacement, lightning bolt (Ref DC 19, 10d6 [35] electricity)
2nd (7/day) - cure moderate wounds (self, 2d8+10 [15]), eagle's splendor, ray of stupidity (ray, 1d4 int damage), mirror image
1st (7/day) - cure light wounds (self, 1d8+5 [10]), disguise self (will DC 17), mage armor, magic missile (5, 1d4+1 [3] each), protection from good, protection from law
0 (6/day) - acid splash (+7 ranged touch), cure minor wounds, detect magic, mending, open/close, prestidigitation, read magic
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Abilities Str 20, Dex 11, Con 22, Int 12, Wis 19, Cha 22
Feats Ability focus (charming gaze), alertness, combat casting, eschew materials, lightning reflexes, maximize spell
Skills Concentration +21, Listen +14, Spellcraft +15, Spot +14
Lemorian Golem CR 14
CE Huge construct
Init +6; Senses darkvision 60 ft., Listen +16, Spot +16
Languages Abyssal
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AC 26, touch 9, flat-footed 26
hp 192 (24 HD); DR 10/adamantine or good
Immune construct traits
SR 29, PR 29
Fort +8, Ref +12, Will +11
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Spd 40 ft., climb 20 ft.
Melee 4 tentacles +33 (3d6+14 [25] / 19-20 plus rot fort DC 22 1d6 con)
Space 15 ft.; Reach 15 ft.
Base Atk +18; Grp +40
Atk Options Combat Reflexes, Improved Grab, Constrict 3d6+21 [30] plus rot fort DC 22 1d6 con)
Special Actions howl (50 ft., DC 24 will or shaken)
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Abilities Str 38, Dex 12, Con -, Int 11, Wis 12, Cha 11
SQ construct traits, dual nature
Feats Ability Focus (howl), Combat Reflexes, Improved Critical (tentacle), Improved Initiative, Weapon Focus (tentacle), Ability Focus (rot), Improved Natural Attack (tentacle)
Skills Climb +32, Listen +16, Spot +16
The terror birds will henceforth be known as "giant dire chickens" in my campaign. The diplodocus will remain a diplodocus, but I may describe it as a "dinosaur-cow with a long neck and tail" since the characters have never seen one before. This should clear up any confusion caused by latin versus common names.
Takasi, your latest post is full of valid and clear questions. I wish I could reward you by answering them but my group doesn't play v3.5 so I'm not much help. I would like to say that there seems evidence of an impressive amount of work adjusting those stat blocks. Good job. I hope someone here has the answers you're looking for on these latest questions.
Here are my juiced up Bar'lguras.
For Olangru I decided to go with 4 hit dice to bump the CR by 2 and give 2 more levels of scout. The 5th level of scout increases skirmish by 1d6 and the most powerful ability of Olangru is his pounce, multiple attacks and skirmish. The 6th level of scout gives him flawless stride allowing him to charge through pretty much any terrain which greatly enhances his pounce. His strategy should be to charge, pounce and use his spring attack to pull back to setup the next charge. Take the AoOs; his mobility makes him nearly untouchable. I replaced Power Attack with Multiattack, thinking the skirmish will offset the loss of damage in exchange for a very high probability to hit.
In addition, I added two feats; one is similar to Abyssal Blood from FC1 in flavor but in crunch it's identical to Aberration Blood that gives him a useless bonus to his climb check. It's a prerequisite though for a new feat I created based on Deepspawn from Lords of Madness. Basically I wanted to give him 2 more attacks and tentacles fit the flavor of Demogorgon better than anything. (It also makes his skirmish ability /pounce combo much more powerful).
His final "weakness" is will saves (though his ridiculous SR 26 should take care of this). Just to be on the safe side I replace his ring of the ram with the Horn of Evil, preventing any type of good mind affecting spells (we have a psion/shaper and bard in the group). He also have a lot of summoners (druid, bard, cleric, wizard, shaper, rogue w/wands) that this will curb.
Olangru CR 13
Advanced Bar-lgura scout 6
CE Medium outsider (chaotic, evil, extraplanar, tanar'ri)
Init +7; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Listen +20, Spot +20
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, telepathy 100 ft.
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AC 31, touch 18, flat-footed 31; Dodge, Mobility, skirmish (+1 AC), uncanny dodge, evasion
hp 152 (16 HD); DR 10/cold iron or good
Immune electricity, poison
Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10; SR 26
Fort +14, Ref +17, Will +9
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Spd 50 ft., climb 20 ft.; Run
Melee 2 claws +23 (1d6+9 [10]) and
2 tentacles +21 (1d4+4 [5])
bite +21 (1d6+4 [5])
Base Atk +14; Grp +23
Atk Options Spring Attack, pounce, skirmish (+2d6 [10])
Special Actions abduction, summon tanar'ri
Combat Gear Horn of Evil
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 16th)
At will - darkness, cause fear (DC 14), dispel magic, greater teleport (DC 20), see invisibility, telekinesis (DC 18)
2/day - disguise self (DC 14), invisibility, major image (DC 16)
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Abilities Str 28, Dex 22, Con 20, Int 13, Wis 12, Cha 16
SQ battle fortitude (+1), fast movement, trackless step, trapfinding, flawless stride
Feats Dodge, Mobility, Multiattack, Run, Spring Attack, Demogorgon Blood (flexible limbs), Demogorgon Deepspawn (tentacles)
Skills Balance +27, Climb +38, hide +29, Intimidate +22, Jump +39, Listen +20, Move Silently +25, Spot +20, Tumble +27
Possessions combat gear, bracers of armor +2, amulet of natural armor +2, ring of protection +2, cloak of resistance +1
Advanced Female bar-lguras CR 8
CE Medium outsider (chaotic, evil, extraplanar, tanar'ri)
Init +5; Senses darkvision 60 ft., Listen +11, Spot +11
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic; telepathy 100 ft.
----------------------
AC 25, touch 15, flat-footed 20; Dodge, Mobility
hp 102 (12 HD); DR 10/cold iron or good
Resist acid 10, cold 10, fire 10; SR 22
Immune electricity, poison
Fort +12, Ref +13, Will +10
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Spd 40 ft., climb 20 ft.; Run
Melee 2 claws +18 (1d8+6 [10]) and
bite +13 (1d8+3 [5])
Base Atk +12; Grp +18
Atk Options pounce
Special Actions abduction, summon tanar'ri
Spell-Like Abilities (CL 12th)
At will - darkness, cause fear (DC 12, dispel magic, greater teleport (DC 18), see invisibility, telekinesis (DC 16)
2/day - disguise self (DC 12), invisibility, major image
----------------------
Abilities Str 22, Dex 20, Con 20, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 12
Feats Dodge, Mobility, Run, Improved Natural Attack (claws), Improved Natural Attack (bite)
Skills Balance +22, Climb +29, Hide +24, Intimidate +16, Jump +33, Listen +17, Move Silently +20, Spot +17, Tumble +22
Possessions bracers of armor +1, amulet of natural armor +1
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For the savage template, it says the creature must be "intelligent". If you apply the fiendish template to an animal to make it a magical beast (bumping its int to 3) could it qualify?
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I think Bullywug Gambit had Savage animals. I would take "intelligent" to mean "any creature with an intelligence score", even if that is 1 or 2, so therefore you would not need to apply the fiendish templete to an animal in order to apply the savage template.
By "intelligent," the savage template requires a creature with an intelligence score of at least 1. It can't affect vermin, for example. It certainly can affect animals.
Thanks!
Story question: Will changing the critters to "Here There Be (SAVAGE) Monster" does this conflict with anything in the future?
For example, are the monsters on the island supposed to be "normal" (compared to savage anyway) but turn savage later in the adventure? Or is there some type of important revelation later in the campaign where the party says "Aha!" and discover a link between the Pearl, Savage Creatures and the Island? Either type of event would make me leery of adding the Savage Template (from a storyline perspective).
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Creative Director
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The savage creature template occurs when a shadow pearl corrupts creatures, or when a savage creature gets the sick into something and transmits the disease and the victim succumbs to the disease. Left alone in an environment, savage creatures tend to burn out quick; their constant violence ends up forcing them to attack and fight more or less until they pick a fight that's too much for them. They're not really a viable sustaining ecology.
There's a chance at the end of "Tides of Dread" for a savage tide to strike. And with "Lightless Depths" the PCs officially get a chance to do something about the shadow pearls. This point in the campaign is indeed when the PCs get their "Aha" moment that everything's linked.
As designed, there actually aren't many (if any) savage creatures encountered outside of "The Bullywug Gambit." Partially because we didn't want to have to reprint the savage creature template too much, but mostly because a little goes a long way when it comes to savage creatures. In my opinion, using them too much takes away the terror and fear that should be planted in the PCs when they first encounter them. Memories of those fights work better to make savage monsters scarier than would encountering them later when you're higher level and can more easilly cope with their damage reduction and disease. And as you mention, having the PCs encounter savage creatures before the second possible savage tide strikes at the end of "Tides of Dread" kind of tips your hand too soon that the Isle of Dread is linked in some way to savage creatures.
My recomendation: Don't savage creature the monsters of the isle. If you're looking to advance them to challenge a larger or higher level group, I'd recomend that you either give all the monsters the elite array (or even a 32 point buy). Upping statistics is a great and simple way to buff up the monsters. The warbeast template from MM II is another interesting option, although then you have to figure out WHO trained these warbeasts.
Used in moderation, the fiendish template's actually not a bad choice, although again, you want to introduce the Abyssal factor on the Isle of Dread subtlly. "Here There Be Monsters" is partially designed with this in mind, to slowly introduce the PCs to the demonic influence until the last act where it's staring them in the face.
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OK, I think I've made my point about Common, Draconic and Latin names for critters. Latin makes no sense at all as we see from the use of "Terror Birds". Common names are better.
Anyway, I'm so glad that people fear that my two cents are going to bring the boards crashing into a blaze. We had a great time running Sea Wyvern's Wake last weekend and I'm prepping Here There Be (Chickens) for our next marathon game on 12/17. The crew had a blast with the monsters in Sea Wyvern and are expecting something extremely menacing from the Isle of Dread. The Swordtooth Titan will be awesome as will the rest of the encounters, but my gang will razz me a bit when they are stalked by giant prehistoric turkeys. I've been the butt of jokes before though, and as I said before I'm keeping the Terror Birds.
Urol will be referring to the Diplodocus as "Cow Lizard" though. :oP
"Reincinerating the blaze"?
At least one of the dyno names isn't latin but at least in part greek ("y" is unknown in latin).
Shall we extend the discussion to the question if greek is a valid language in a fantasy campaign?
Or is english a valid language?
(People in my campaign speak "germlish". >:-) )
Just another two cents, ;-)
Günther
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There could be a constructive use for latin/draconic names for the dinosaurs on the Isle of Dread, if a GM has those terms available and wishes to play them up: Urol Forol could be fond of using those "scientific" terms for the creatures the party encounters as they go, which could become obnoxious, or helpful, or both, depending on how the DM portrays him.
The proper terminology for a creature probably isn't a PC's main concern when it's trying to eat him or her, but if Urol is in the background trying to casually classify the beast like it's a zoo attraction while your character is grappling with it and trying to stay alive, an exciting combat encounter can become a fun roleplaying encounter at the same time. :)
I prefer the term "feisty chocobos"...
I prefer the term "feisty chocobos"...
Ha! I was wondering if people would make the Final Fantasy connection to these critters. From the moment I showed my players the picture of the terror birds printed in the module, they started humming the Chocobo Theme at me, and incessantly saying "WARK!". \It didn't make the battles any less intense...although I did let the rangers of the party do a little bird rustling. They now have two more pack animals, and they're making Thunderstrike even more jittery!
Point here being that even if you get a little silly with names and looks of monsters, you can still make entertaining roleplay out of it.