The Samurai Class from CW is flawed. While I agree not everything should be perfectly historically accurate, and that we cannot recreate classes exactly for the fantasy world, I think the Samurai class is far off of the mark.
Only one school/style (ryu) of Kenjutsu was known two wield two swords at once. And it was not widespread.
The samurai was a brave warrior, fearless, iron-willed and wielded as single sword two-handed, and was something of a renaisance man.
So I suggest:
Remove all the Daisho abilities.
Replace them with a single-sword, two handed bonus. A bonus to hit and AC that increases in level, a la sneak attack or skirmish.
Add skills so they can do calligraphy, cha-no-yu, and other such activities.
A challenge ability akin to the Knight for duels.
And an fear/iron-will effect.
Thoughts?
Oh, so make them like they were in Oriental Adventures? ;) works for me!!!
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I'm not very familiar with the class, but if two weapon fighting was a style employed by samurais, have you considered setting it up to have two possible combat style paths ala the ranger?
As for the bonus to hit and AC, is this only when certain conditions are met (ala sneak attack) or constantly in effect?
How powerful are the daiysho effects that are being removed?
Are you adding skills to their skill list or skills to their skill list and skill points. The later strikes me as a Very Bad Idea, because only the most die hard roleplayer is going to put those extra skill points into caligraphy.
What I do if a player wants an alternate progression (in Oriental Adventures, for example), is just give them alternate abilites to the two weapon fighting. I think the rest of the class works fine with their staredown abilities and kiai smite. For example, in Oriental Adventures, the Dragon Clan samurai remain as printed in CW, but the other clans get alternate abilites. Crane Clan gets bonuses to initiative to reflect their emphasis on speed and mobility. Scorpion likes to fight dirty, so they get a few sudden strike dice. Crab samurai get rage. Lion clan gets a shout that grants attack and damage bonuses to themselves and their allies. Phoenix Clan samurai focus on mental training, so I give them a small insight bonus to AC to represent their ability to read their oppoenent. Unicorns get a bonus to attack and damage while mounted.
I sent a query off to Dragon a few weeks ago suggesting a Class Acts with two sets of alternate class features for the samurai, to replace the daisho feats.
The first set builds a samurai along the lines of Yagyu style kenjutsu: Katana two-handed, lightning fast counter-attacks, uncanny dodge.
The second set builds an older style samurai: A horse archer with more brutal, battelfield oriented features.
I really hope they accept my proposal...(hint!)
I know the sword was not always the iconic weapon; but during much of the Sengoku period, the period most well known and liked, the sword was the main weapon. And, isn;t a sword just cooler?
You are right, though, An archer alternate would be good; I think alternate styles would be great too.
I know the sword was not always the iconic weapon; but during much of the Sengoku period, the period most well known and liked, the sword was the main weapon. And, isn;t a sword just cooler?
You are right, though, An archer alternate would be good; I think alternate styles would be great too.
I like the tetsubo and no-dachi myself. Thing is these were weapons seen more during the Kamukura period. Most Bushi and Samurai were proficent in all weapons(Yari, Naginata, bow and both swords all while fighting from foot or horseback), but it wasn't until after Sengoku and in the Tokugawa era that focus falls mainly on swords and dueling. This is when the Niten(two sword school comes to be in a world of hundreds of differnt sword schools all with there own "special style."
I think the Samurai and Ronin class are both flawed and can be ajusted to fit a more historical profile. Think about the figther class, so many feats and so many ways to customize your warrior and his perfered weapon. So the Sam class should start with a weapon focus and build off that. I like the idea of the class acts that someone had mentioned before. Fighting from horse back was important in Sengoku period, where quick draw and lighting strikes were more important in Tokugawa time where the Yagyu school ruled and was the offical sword school of the Shogun.
I think the main problem with both classes is that their tied to L5R D&D conversion. L5R decent game in its own right, but 3E OA really doesn't hold water with me. But thats another discussion. The Sam class you can work with, the Ronin class is another story. What is the sneak attack all about? Just cause you loose your master for whatever reason doesn't make you and honorless thug. I guess they never saw Seven Samurai.
Bear in mind the OA samurai gets a daisho as well and enhances it with magic like the 3.5 CW Kensai. If you want to do away with two weapon a modified fighter would work or use the samurai class but replace two weapon feats with Power Attack, Imp Sunder, Cleave, Great Cleave maybe. Maybe Mounted Combat, Mounted Archery, Rideby Attack, Spirited Charge or Trample for horsemen. Maybe PBShot, Precise Shot, Rapid Shot or Shot on Run or Manyshot for archers. Also, with regards to skills give the players "virtual" skill points at each level that can only be spent on character development skills (ie. Craft (Calligraphy), etc) Look at profession, perform and craft skills for these; certain knowledge skills could work too.
Another possibility is a fighter modified to replace one bonus feat with something like paladin's aura of courage. Finally, the knight from PHB II could, with a few flavour adjustments, be used. Truthfully any attempt to represent a real world career path in D&D is doomed to failure to a greater or lesser extent.
I think the main problem with both classes is that their tied to L5R D&D conversion. L5R decent game in its own right, but 3E OA really doesn't hold water with me. But thats another discussion. The Sam class you can work with, the Ronin class is another story. What is the sneak attack all about? Just cause you loose your master for whatever reason doesn't make you and honorless thug. I guess they never saw Seven Samurai.
I think whether a samurai has a lord or is a ronin should be a roleplaying consideration only. It shouldn't have any effect on your class abilities, they should both be considered full samurai.
You definitely shouldn't lose your powers just because you lost your job; Warriors changed allegiance all the time in medieaval Japan, sometimes amicably, someimes not. If you want to have a wandering ronin as opposed to a court samurai, give him ranks in Survival instead of Perform (poetry). Other than that, the two should be identical in terms of class features.
I really don't like it when a class is restricted in game by something that is essentially a roleplaying/background feature. For example, it bugs me that a Paladin or Monk can't freely multiclass because of some flavour hangover from 1st Ed; Or when a Samurai loses his class features because his lord is killed. What if the DM just decided to say "sorry, Lord Tojo got whacked by an assassin. No more Samurai levels for you till you get a new master."
You guys are getting WAY to caught up in the history here. Wizards can't be expected to perfectly duplicate the samurai, and they aren't trying to. This is a game of high fantasy, and so you can expect Wizards to do their best to capture the romanticized fantasy samurai. The same goes for the other oriental classes, too. Yeah, samurai didn't usually fight with two weapons, and yeah, they rode horses and used bows. That isn't the samurai that's being presented, because this isn't a historical game. It's BASED on history and BASED on real figures, but that's it. I know that ancient Japanese culture is sweet, but if your expecting to find an accurate representation of it here, I'm afraid you're playing the wrong game.
You guys are getting WAY to caught up in the history here. Wizards can't be expected to perfectly duplicate the samurai, and they aren't trying to. This is a game of high fantasy, and so you can expect Wizards to do their best to capture the romanticized fantasy samurai. The same goes for the other oriental classes, too. Yeah, samurai didn't usually fight with two weapons, and yeah, they rode horses and used bows. That isn't the samurai that's being presented, because this isn't a historical game. It's BASED on history and BASED on real figures, but that's it. I know that ancient Japanese culture is sweet, but if your expecting to find an accurate representation of it here, I'm afraid you're playing the wrong game.
Yeah, that's all fair enough, and like you said classes are based on fantasy archetypes, but the problem is that there isn't even a fantasy archetype of samurai wielding two swords. Watch any samurai movie or anime about samurai and you'll see they all (or nearly all) use a katana one or two-handed. Where did the two swords thing come from? It's like Wizards just made it up.
All we are talking about is making options for people who have just watched Ninja Scroll or 7 Samurai and want a PC like that. They pick up CW and find that they are forced to specialize in two weapon fighting for some unclear reason. I mean who would want to play a samurai PC besides someone interested in historical or cinematic samurai, neither of which are even close to the CW version?
I played in a "7 Samurai" OA based game, where we were all Samurai from different clans. I played the mounted Unicorn, with all the ride feats and alance in additon to my Daisho. We had Niten masters, iajutsu deulists, archers, and one guy who fought with a club. The cool thing is that we all made VERY different charcters, based on the OA interpetation of the Sammy. the ancestral daisho was a nice RP touch, since it meant you didn't have to buy a weapon @ first level. that versions strengths were the bonus feats, which allowed a lot of customization, and the strong story background that meant you could make widely disparate characters from the same cloth. the CW Sammy is just dumb, IMO, and I wouldn't play it. I'd almost prefer a multi class Aristo/fighter, or just straight fighter with role playing bennies. YMMV,
Back before we had an actual samurai class, a samurai would be played quite adequately by rolling up a fighter and simply calling him a samurai. One could quite easily model a samurai by creating special feats. For example, suppose a fighter gives up the proficiency in shields and heavy armour but gains the appellation of 'samurai', which qualifies him for certain samurai feat trees and nets him a masterwork katana to begin with. Such feat trees might build to fear immunity around sixth level, that feat having one prerequisite.
You guys are getting WAY to caught up in the history here. I know that ancient Japanese culture is sweet, but if your expecting to find an accurate representation of it here, I'm afraid you're playing the wrong game.
First of all, this contributes nothing to the coversation; we are making an attempt to do something we like, and all you did was tell us we should not.
Second, if you read the very first line of my first post, I put out the caveat that we cannot always be perfectly historically accurate.
I often argue that we can't be perfectly realistic; but that is not the point. When designing a class, you are desgining off an archetype. Think of the Knight class, and that it is not really like the Knight of history- it is based on an archetype.
For the Samurai, we are working from an archetype. We are trying to do somethign more based of an archetype, and more in line with the Samurai who inspire us- watch a movie like Yojimbo, the Seven Samurai, or even the Last Samurai. And these are single sword wielders. Read Lone Wolf and Cub.
The 2 sword wielder does not even appear in most fiction, and does not adhere to an archetype we are familiar with or care for. As such, we are trying to do something new, and that makes more sense.
The CW Samurai has a multitude of problems. The OA Samurai is way better and more flavorful.
First off, it's skill points suck and list of class skills incomplete.
Next are the samurai's abilities. Some are based off of two-weapon fighting and a quick draw ability. However, these only work when you have both a katana and a wakizashi. Two of which can be disarmed, sundered, stolen, disintegrated, etc. Once this is accomplished, 1/3 of the Samurai's abilities are nullifed. A Fighter can still fight when weapons are lost, a Barbarian can still rage, etc. But the Samurai is screwed. To counter this, a CW Samurai would have to look ridiculous by carrying around about 5 pairs of katana and wakizashi. Also, a Fighter can accomplish the same abilities with feats (Quick Draw, TWF, ITWF, and GTWF) and they work with ANY weapon, not just two specific weapons.
Next are the other set of abilities, the intimidate ones. First off, this doesn't work on creatures immune to fear or mind-affecting affects. Next is the Samurai's ability at 20th-level that, for some strange reason, is limited only to creatures less than 20 HD. At that point in the game, most creatures HD are 20 or more. And don't bother taking this character to epic level, where everything has 20 or more HD. You're screwed there too.
So what are you left with on the CW Samurai? A powerfully flawed class. It's the worst class WotC released and the OA Samurai still tops out as the best Samurai class WotC has done.
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You guys are getting WAY to caught up in the history here. I know that ancient Japanese culture is sweet, but if your expecting to find an accurate representation of it here, I'm afraid you're playing the wrong game.
First of all, this contributes nothing to the coversation; we are making an attempt to do something we like, and all you did was tell us we should not.
Take a deep breath and count to ten....
Right, there is no point saying to someone they are contributing nothing, especially when the comment actually contributes a key point which you are now clarifying. And anyway, it's rude. You want to engage in a purist discussion, that's fine. Don't dismiss other comments because they happen to digress from your initial purpose. And if you do, don't do it like that.
I have issues with the scary, dual-wielding, ranger knock-off myself, so it's OA (Oriental Adventures) all the way, baby! The class is customizable, flavorful (especially in terms of the skills and kensai-like abilities), more iconic with its typical single weapon fighting-style, while still making you keep the trademark swords, plus enterprising DMs have a nice set of examples for creating their own unique clans/schools.
All-in-all a very good mid-fantasy representation.
Now, what the hell are "clerics" supposed to represent? And why no witches who where way more prevalent?
;)
GGG
Right, there is no point saying to someone they are contributing nothing, especially when the comment actually contributes a key point which you are now clarifying. And anyway, it's rude. You want to engage in a purist discussion, that's fine. Don't dismiss other comments because they happen to digress from your initial purpose. And if you do, don't do it like that.
I was dismissive because I don't think the person I quoted was interested in helping at all; it was merely a comment from the peanut gallery about how what we were doing was foolish.
I don't care about digression, or for comments of only tangenital importance. Both are fine.
But when one addresses a specific concern, and another person pops in to shoot you down with that concern, it is a little frustrating; their point has been noted and understood, but they still feel the need to push it in an otherwise productive conversation to be a spoiler. There was no opinion pertaining to the conversation at all.
It did not contribute a key point; I had already stated it.
I still don't think that I was being dismissive out of hand; they were dismissive of our whole conversation, and not digressing.
I was stating that I do not think they should stomp on our work just because; I think that the interjection he made, that we are "too caught up" and "playing the wrong game" was very dismissive of our comments, and they did not, in fact, contribute anything to the conversation.
I was not rude intentionally, nor was I angry; sorry if I offended, but I stand by my point. That comment was only intended to tear us down and dismiss what we are doing, and I don't have any problem telling them so.
If they had said, "you should play Bushido if you want a real samurai," or "I think the CW version is fine," or "I like the Samurai from other media, have you seen that one movie..." any of which would have been at least borderline productive, or digressing but not negative, I would not have cared.
But I feel no need to suffer a person lightly whose intentions were only to detract from us and close down the conversation with a comment abotu us "playing the wrong game."
Thank you for your concern, and in the future I suppose I will instead ignore the post, instead of calling the person on it. Which si fine also.
Now, what the hell are "clerics" supposed to represent?
I don't know if you are just being funny, but either way I will answer...
The cleric, for the most part, is based on the militant priests of orders like the Knights Templar. Still faithful, but just as much a warrior.
The OA class is very good; I think they offer cool individualized styles. And they are great fantasy samurai, too. I will have to do me some thinking now; thanks, GGG.
I have issues with the scary, dual-wielding, ranger knock-off myself, so it's OA (Oriental Adventures) all the way, baby! The class is customizable, flavorful (especially in terms of the skills and kensai-like abilities), more iconic with its typical single weapon fighting-style, while still making you keep the trademark swords, plus enterprising DMs have a nice set of examples for creating their own unique clans/schools.
All-in-all a very good mid-fantasy representation.
I agree completely with you. Don't forget they also get 4 skill points and a nice set of class skills that fits a Samurai, though I do believe they should also be allowed Knowledge (nobility&royalty) and/or Knowledge (history) as class skills.
I have a house rule where anyone who picks a Samurai can customize their own clan's style of combat and may choose any one skill as a class skill as long as it fits their clan's theme.
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Yeah, that's all fair enough, and like you said classes are based on fantasy archetypes, but the problem is that there isn't even a fantasy archetype of samurai wielding two swords.
Niten Ichi-ryu, which can be loosely translated as "the school of the strategy of two heavens as one", is a koryu (ancient school), transmitting a style of classical Japanese swordsmanship conceived by the famous warrior Miyamoto Musashi. Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu is mainly known for the two-sword—katana and wakizashi—kenjutsu techniques Musashi called Niten Ichi ("two heavens as one") or Nito Ichi ("two swords as one"). (copied from wikipedia, but there are many references to his two sword style, especially in his Book of the Five Rings
That being said, any two sword wielding samurai IS indeed extremely rare, but not as far fetched as a samurai wearing plate mail and using a shield, yet they have those proficiencies!
It's a broken class yes, but I have faith it will be polished by the time Ultimate Combat is release.
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That being said, any two sword wielding samurai IS indeed extremely rare, but not as far fetched as a samurai wearing plate mail and using a shield, yet they have those proficiencies!
It's a broken class yes, but I have faith it will be polished by the time Ultimate Combat is release.
You know the person you quoted said that almost 4 and a half years ago right? And that this thread has been "dead" just as long...
You appear to be new, so I just thought I'd point that out to ya :-)
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My apologies!
No need to apologize to anyone. Besides, these boards tend to forgive a little thread necromancy...
I just thought I'd say something especially since the poster you quoted (in addition to the age of the thread itself) has not been actively posting for the last 2 years...
-That One Digitalelf Fellow-