Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Maybe it's just me, but what was cute in Man Forever has become tedious with Greymalkin Academy. I'm probably being overly sensitive to the issue, but I find that name incredibly distracting and thoroughly irritating. At least Man Forever took the pains to either bury its references or use references that were mundane enough that they were not exclusively linked to Batman mythology. Greymalkin is synonymous with the X-men mansion. It's impossible for me to read that word and not think "okay, we're talking about the X-men."
Is it just me, or is anyone else annoyed about this?
I have to admit that my knowledge of the X-Men is limited, but how does Graymalkin Academy remind you of the X-Men Mansion?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I have to admit that my knowledge of the X-Men is limited, but how does Graymalkin Academy remind you of the X-Men Mansion?
The X-men mansion is located on Graymalkin Drive. This may not seem like much, but in every third or fourth issue of a comic book, the authors need to reintroduce the setting and characters. Whenever they introduce the X-men mansion, they invariably say something like "meanwhile, in an ordinary looking mansion on 123 Graymalkin Drive something unusual hides behind the hedges." When you read a comic for a couple years, and read a variation of that phrase every couple issues, it tends to burn into your brain.
There was also an asteroid base named Graymalkin at one point in the comic.
The name itself wouldn't be that bad, but you staple it on a school for gifted students (e.g., wizards) and it sticks out like a sore thumb.
I equate Greymalkin with Macbeth. The cat named Greymalkin followed one of the witches around sort of like a familiar.
Seems like it may not necessarily be an X-Men reference. Certainly not enough of a reference to warrant such an aggressive thread title.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I equate Greymalkin with Macbeth. The cat named Greymalkin followed one of the witches around sort of like a familiar.
And if there were a cat named Greymalkin in the adventure, you would have a relevant point. However, it's an academy for wizards, which is about as analogous to the X-men mansion as you can get without actually calling it the Xavier institute.
I think of gret cat from Macbeth as well, but certainly know that it's been adopted and given a boost in word fame by the X-men.
I agree, Sebastian. It's the reason numbing repetition of any cutesy gag that makes it obnoxious, like those matrix slo-mo fight parodies that seem to wind up in movies nigh ten years after the original.
"HA HA! THAT'S FROM A MOVIE I SAW! SO THAT ALONE MAKES IT HILARIOUS! THANKS LESLIE NEILSON! YOU STILL GOT IT!"
Edit: Um, dude... what are we talking about exactly? Did someone publish an adventure called Man Forever and Greymalkin Academy or sumpin'?
And if there were a cat named Greymalkin in the adventure, you would have a relevant point. However, it's an academy for wizards, which is about as analogous to the X-men mansion as you can get without actually calling it the Xavier institute.I equate Greymalkin with Macbeth. The cat named Greymalkin followed one of the witches around sort of like a familiar.
Nope. X-men trained at Hogwarts.
I equate Greymalkin with Macbeth. The cat named Greymalkin followed one of the witches around sort of like a familiar.
Seems like it may not necessarily be an X-Men reference. Certainly not enough of a reference to warrant such an aggressive thread title.
yep; this is the reference I think of when I hear Greymalkin also...also, he is the the Summer Knight book by that most excellent author, Jim Butcher, as a cat/person/assassin/guard thing that works for the Winter Court of Faire; so, no comic reference for me.
I don't read comic books and never have, so all the comic book references in the adventures are lost on me. Therefore, I am not irritated. I knew my ignorance of that one thing would pay off someday, beyond the money I saved not going to watch any comic book related movies.
Coulda been worse. At least they didn't have a Peril Chamber.
And nobody said,
"I love you, Jean."
"And I, you Scott. With all my heart."...hmm...lone shifter ranger...named Nagol...with adamantite bones...in search of his past...
Snikety snikt! Snikety snikt!
He's the best there is at what he does....Bub!
It took me a minute to figure the Nagol trick...saw it as Nazgul 'rsumthin.
Nightcrawler and Lockheed woulda been choice though.
Any type of repeated references get old if overused... my players are constantly cursing me for introducing personages like the half-orc Grog, the fighter Brut de Corbel, and Merlot the Magician. I also had a minor artifact potion (in a bottle with a black label showing a silver star); detect magic on the label's runes revealed the mystic name "SAMICHLAUS."
....Certainly not enough of a reference to warrant such an aggressive thread title.
Preach it bro!
I personally hate adventures that feature +2 longswords. That's so a rip-off of the Arthurian Legend. Might as well just call the damn thing Excalibur and be done with it.
See? it is an X conspiracy.
;)
Weapon GIII
I don't read comic books and never have, so all the comic book references in the adventures are lost on me. Therefore, I am not irritated. I knew my ignorance of that one thing would pay off someday, beyond the money I saved not going to watch any comic book related movies.
I must agree with my colleague f2k. Well, except for the movie part. I still watch many of the comic book movies based on recommendations of friends.
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I don't read comic books and never have, so all the comic book references in the adventures are lost on me. Therefore, I am not irritated. I knew my ignorance of that one thing would pay off someday, beyond the money I saved not going to watch any comic book related movies.
F2K - please, go ahead and buy a copy of just one Clavin&Hobbes comic book! Believe me, you'll going to love it! I am pretty sure you're "one of us"!
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I don't read comic books and never have, so all the comic book references in the adventures are lost on me. Therefore, I am not irritated.
Me too. That said, Dungeon does seem to love geeky in-jokes. A lot are about D&D, of course, but I guess comics come a close second (not that I ever get those references, or course). I am hardly one to decry geekiness (I see it as the basic source of my charm, such as it is) but I get slightly (only very, very slightly, mind you) alarmed by the growing trend in self-referential material for the geek-in-the-know. Once the magazine stops talking to new players and starts to revel in a secret code only the cognoscenti (sp?) understand will be the day the hobby gets into dire straits. Or the music dies. Or something.
You know what would have really made this complete? An asian woman with a british accent that is a soul knife that takes a full round action to explain that the psychic weapon she uses is the "focused totality of her telepathic powers" before she ever attacks.
Then if combat breaks off, and the PCs meet her again, she takes another full round action at the begining of the next fight to explain the same thing again.
BTW, all Chris Claremont dialog would have to be counted as a full round action.
I don't mind the "secret code" geek references that Aubrey mentioned as long as the adventures remain playable. One of my players loves comic books and I'm sure he'd get a kick out of the references, especially considering that he knows the DM has no clue that it's a reference to something.
Calvin & Hobbes is okay. My wife has a copy of "Something under the bed is drooling" and I've read it to my son. I also like "Order of the Stick" but that's not really a comic book.
Dryder, I did read one comic book religiously when I was a youngkraut-- "Rex Danny"
I am hardly one to decry geekiness (I see it as the basic source of my charm, such as it is) but I get slightly (only very, very slightly, mind you) alarmed by the growing trend in self-referential material for the geek-in-the-know. Once the magazine stops talking to new players and starts to revel in a secret code only the cognoscenti (sp?) understand will be the day the hobby gets into dire straits. Or the music dies. Or something.
Well said, Aubrey; 100% agreement. I know nothing about comics (except Calvin & Hobbes, all of which I've read like a billion times), and sometimes feel slightly left out (sob). I also strongly decry the overwhelming "Japanimation" of D&D, with the grossly misproportioned people (no offense to the Malformed, of course) in the illustrations wielding swords that you'd need a crane to lift. Please allow those of us who don't like that stuff back into the game once in a while.
Savage Tide is a great thing, drawing on pirates instead of comics, and using realistic portraiture. All hail James Jacobs, our savior!
...but I get slightly (only very, very slightly, mind you) alarmed by the growing trend in self-referential material for the geek-in-the-know. Once the magazine stops talking to new players and starts to revel in a secret code only the cognoscenti (sp?) understand will be the day the hobby gets into dire straits. Or the music dies. Or something.
This was the same issue my hubby had with the Final Fantasy: Advent Children movie. "Look, when you give preferential treatment to your fanboys instead of trying to appeal to a broader audience, you piss me off and make me not want to watch your shtuff."
...Once the magazine stops talking to new players and starts to revel in a secret code only the cognoscenti (sp?) understand will be the day the hobby gets into dire straits. Or the music dies. Or something.
True, but is that applicable to this situation? Let's just say that the person who wrote this adventure came right out and admitted to everyone that they used a concept from a particular comic book as the basis of the work. Let's just assume that for argument's sake.
Now, would you have to understand the plotlines comic-book roots in order to "get" the story or derive any entertainment value from it? Absolutely not. Think about any given story that you know. Well, chances are, it's based on themes from another, older, story. You may not even know the original roots. Does this mean that almost every story you know is appealing to ONLY folks that know all of the elements of the original stories? Certainly not.
Personally, what I would take issue with are ideas that have no meaning apart from some special in-joke that has no intrinsic meaning by itself. The concept of an academy that teaches gifted youngsters can indeed stand on it's own. I doubt that someone that is totally ignorant about the X-men is being bothered that there might be some hidden meaning or correlation to something they aren't "in the know" about when playing this adventure.
It seems to me that the only ones that have a problem with it are people that DO see the reference, not people that are ignorant about it desperately seeking the hidden truth of the story origins.
I would have a problem with an adventure that truly does rely on references to other, unrelated works in order to understand the story. I think there is a difference in assuming that someone has knowledge about something that they are required to act on and borrowing an idea from another genre.
I could be wrong, but I think the real idea behind the original complaint is to show that they "got" the reference. I can't really imagine someone being genuinely bothered enough to complain. With hundreds of issues of Dungeon, has there really been a slew of adventures based on comics? Come on. Really?
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I could be wrong, but I think the real idea behind the original complaint is to show that they "got" the reference. I can't really imagine someone being genuinely bothered enough to complain. With hundreds of issues of Dungeon, has there really been a slew of adventures based on comics? Come on. Really?
I'm always bothered enough to complain.
There have been 2 in less than 6 months (but there's that fear in me that they are the new half-dragon, destined to appear on a regular basis for the foreseeable future). One was a meaty set of references and rather well done. However, it was more of an inside reference that Aubrey complains about. The second was the aforementioned Greymalkin Academy reference, which struck me as obvious, inept, and annoying. It would have been marginally more creative to call the wizard's academy Strawgoh.
(Strawgoh is Hogwarts spelled backward. Hogwarts is the name of the school where Harry Potter learns magic for those of you that don't read, watch movies, surf the internet, or otherwise communicate with the outside world).
Dryder, I did read one comic book religiously when I was a youngkraut-- "Rex Danny"
So I guess I lied when I said earlier that I have never read comic books. By "never" I meant in the last 30 years ;)
So the problem isn't exactly with the story, it's with the name supplied.
Let's say I have a campaign set in Greyhawk. Dungeon has an adventure set in the city of, say, Waterdeep. Waterdeep is not located in the Greyhawk setting. The name is totally inappropriate for my setting. What should I do? Keep in mind, the problem is not with the actual content, per se, it's with the name they gave the location.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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So the problem isn't exactly with the story, it's with the name supplied.
Let's say I have a campaign set in Greyhawk. Dungeon has an adventure set in the city of, say, Waterdeep. Waterdeep is not located in the Greyhawk setting. The name is totally inappropriate for my setting. What should I do? Keep in mind, the problem is not with the actual content, per se, it's with the name they gave the location.
Drive to Alabama. Purchase three boxes of instant grits. Fling the grits into the air. Puzzle over the flung grits until you make out some letters. Assemble the letters into a word. Use to word as the name of your city!
Wait, Gav, I never realize it until you posted but . . . Savage Tide? Savage Land? Coincidence? I mean, there are dinosaurs in this adventure path . . .
Ah yes, Sym . . . nothing cooler than a big purple demon smoking a cigar . . .
I liked how Sym would come across as kind of comic relief most of the time, so that when he did something really nasty it was a shock and all of the sudden you realized, "hey, thats right, he IS a demon."
Belasco would make for an interesting demon lord in D&D (even if he did hang out in Limbo, lol). Oddly enough, I never used Marvel demons/devils in D&D, but I converted a few D&D demon lords to Marvel Super Heroes for my players to run into.
Argh... this has become the "more comic books talk!" thread.
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...Once the magazine stops talking to new players and starts to revel in a secret code only the cognoscenti (sp?) understand will be the day the hobby gets into dire straits. Or the music dies. Or something.
True, but is that applicable to this situation? Let's just say that the person who wrote this adventure came right out and admitted to everyone that they used a concept from a particular comic book as the basis of the work. Let's just assume that for argument's sake.
Now, would you have to understand the plotlines comic-book roots in order to "get" the story or derive any entertainment value from it? Absolutely not. Think about any given story that you know. Well, chances are, it's based on themes from another, older, story. You may not even know the original roots. Does this mean that almost every story you know is appealing to ONLY folks that know all of the elements of the original stories? Certainly not.
Personally, what I would take issue with are ideas that have no meaning apart from some special in-joke that has no intrinsic meaning by itself. The concept of an academy that teaches gifted youngsters can indeed stand on it's own. I doubt that someone that is totally ignorant about the X-men is being bothered that there might be some hidden meaning or correlation to something they aren't "in the know" about when playing this adventure.
It seems to me that the only ones that have a problem with it are people that DO see the reference, not people that are ignorant about it desperately seeking the hidden truth of the story origins.
I'm not really bothered by it at the moment. The key element is a good playable adventure, and neither Man Forever and the Graymalkin Academy offend by being unplayable at all. And probably comic book references are less what I am worried about, but in-references to D&D's past.
Sometimes the editors really seem get off on the history of D&D settings, and inject some of that into the campaigns. All the excitement about the Froghemoth in AoW, the key to the dungeon in the Barrier Peaks from the Bullywug Gambit. Now, I don't mind this stuff, but I didn't really play the classic modules when I was a kid, but was actually playing other systems. So I don't feel a warm glow of recognition when I see this stuff and feel an ever-so-teensy-bit excluded from the fun when this stuff comes up.
Now, I like to think I am reasonably dedicated to the hobby, so I won't flounce off in a huff because of this. But it is a relativeley new trend in the magazine (so it seems to me) for this "ah, back in the good old days" sort of stuff to be aired. On one level, it is of course interesting and probably a good thing to have a thirty year perspective on the game and settings (primarily Greyhawk). But IF THIS CONTINUES FURTHER (an important caveat) it could become a barrier to new readers who will be necessary for the hobby to be healthy.
Right now, I don't actually think it is a probalem at all. But I just get a little worried that the antiquarian urge that seems to be manifesting itself could prove a bit destructive if given full rein.
Lastly, I should add that this is a very minor quibble about a magazine I think has improved massively over recent years and is maintaining an extraordinarily high standard. Erik, James and Co are clearly a GOOD THING for the hobby and the magazine. But I thought I would air this and see what people think. I could be wrong - there is a first for everything.
I must admit that when I saw/read Greymalkin Academy, rather than associating it with X-Men I thought that it was referring to the Grimalkins from the Monsters of Faerun supplement. I was slightly dissapointed to find that there was not one of the feline critters in the adventure...
It must kill some people (initials = "Sebastion" the grits told me so ;) everytime someone drops a +2 sword into a adventure - it's such a blatant rip-off of Arthurian legend. I mean if you are only seeing 2 references in the last 6 months then I suggest you aren't being annoyed enough. What about that cheap Japanese toy they call a rust monster, how lame is that! And rakshasa and their weakness to holy 'pointy' things - that's so Kolchak the Night Stalker (and perhaps Sigmund Freud). I mean it is so obvious to everyone right? From now on all my adventures are going to be written completely randomly to avoid all reference to the world we know (and so obviously dispise for the fun winks and nods we could give to the cool stuff in it). For example:
Jkojreiouipo is an adventure for 322 54th-level characters set in the World of Mmiop 'Oist a world with a long and complicated history as discribed by a bunch of modules over the course of 30+ years. If you haven't read them -tough! There's no room for your ideas in Mmiop 'Oist and you have to follow the history. Currently the year is 56/Apple, the Year of Dripping Ear Wax, and the terrible Pogaihb Beast a horrible creature from the depths of Gaio is on the loose in the kingdom of Adtfgho near the Capital City of Tyu Grh in the heart of the Ipngf Empire. Characters must best the beast in lacrosse or frofeit their grandparent's to sate the creature's age-eating needs.... That will never work characters rarely have parents let alone grands.
Back to the drawing board,
GGG
PS Go get 'em Aubrey!
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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It must kill some people (initials = "Sebastion" the grits told me so ;)
Weird. I'm not sure who Sebastion even is. And the grits are normally so reliable...
Oh well, I still think it's an irritating and uncreative title, but it looks like I'm the only one who got the reference and was annoyed at it.
It must kill some people (initials = "Sebastion" the grits told me so ;)
Weird. I'm not sure who Sebastion even is. And the grits are normally so reliable...
I knew grits were bad for you -- turns out they're some sort of hallucinogen. And yes, I'm sure they must kill people.
To quote a prominent lawyer: "what is a grit, anyway?"
What D&D needs is an Infinite Civil War Crisis involving Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Eberron and Mystara, wherein half the major NPCs suddenly side with the devils in the Blood War while the other half do other stupid things. Elminster suddenly tries to subjugate Greyhawk to the forces of Law! Goes head-to-head with the Circle of Eight! Patriarch Rao allies with the Lords of Waterdeep and an army of warforged to invade the Empire of Shadows! Cormyr conquers the Dalelands with the help of the Scarlet Brotherhood! Zhentil Keep stays neutral but secretly plots to take over Sharn!
That would be cool, right? It would SELL!
Or not. Some genres shouldn't cross.
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I personally don't mind references to outside media where they don't detract from the game. Obviously a DM can just call it Asteroid M Academy if he wants to have a more neutral name. I think the issue is less that the references are bad as a matter of policy - as in, they make the adventure worse or less enjoyable in and of themselves - and more that they can be kind of ham-handed or cringe-inducing in those that get them. More a matter of style than anything else.
I'm a little bit more concerned with what Aubrey pointed out about the references to old school adventures. That's more the kind of thing that I think can have an effect on the overall value of the adventure. I feel like in those cases, you're missing out on something important if you don't get the reference, whereas with things like comic book references, they simply add something extra if you do get them. I still think it's cool to pay tribute to D&D history through references like these, I just wish there was a way for newer gamers to clue in so that they can get the full experience as well.