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I'm sure there are some people out there who really enjoy the "Downer" comic strip in the back of the magazine, but I wonder how many people would rather have two pages of adventure or campaign workbook material? The smaller strips like "The Portent" and "Mt. Zogon" are humorous and don't take up much space. They add something to the magazine without taking much in return. "Downer" does not rate two pages in your awesome magazine in my opinion. I'd like to see something else along the lines of Mr. John Simcoe's 'blank form' suggestions in issue 139.
Creative Director
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Downer has a very unique reaction among Dungeon readers. People seem to either really like it or really dislike it. Like it or not, though, it does a great job giving Dungeon not only a cool personality, but also serves as a great way to end the magazine each month in a way that's purely entertainment to read rather than two more pages of what we just spent nearly a 100 pages doing in the first place.
And on top of that, I happen to really like Downer; in my opinion, it more than deserves those two pages in the magazine.
*sigh*
If I had my druthers, every issue of Dragon and Dungeon would be the size of Cosmo.
At least. I want a tome of gaming material.
I started out intrigued by Downer. Then I felt that too much happened between issues. Lately, things have been better about transition between issues. I sometimes find myself wishing there was more than two pages per issue because the story isn't progressing as fast as I'd like. But I wouldn't want it to be longer because then I'd give up something else in Dungeon I like.
I do not want to see Downer go away. Why? I always read it. I love its unusual take on classic D&D monsters. I think the characters are well thought out. I felt sorry for Loops the bard / ghost. I like Astrid's hate / hate relationship with Downer. Taggit was just plain cool. Kyle Stanley Hunter is a very talented artist that can visually tell a story. His character designs are top-notch. The clincher for me is the dialogue is great.
Please keep Downer.
Downer = poop
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I started out intrigued by Downer. Then I felt that too much happened between issues. Lately, things have been better about transition between issues. I sometimes find myself wishing there was more than two pages per issue because the story isn't progressing as fast as I'd like. But I wouldn't want it to be longer because then I'd give up something else in Dungeon I like.
I am right in the middle on this topic. I don't think Downer is cutting it with only two pages. The storylines don't make a lot of sense and the characters are killed/changed so often that it's hard to care about them. It seems like Kyle Hunter has a lot more to say (and a lot of interesting stuff to say), but that two pages is just not the optimal space for him to say it. So, while I wouldn't mind seeing Downer expanded a little, I can't say that I enjoy its current incarnation.
And on top of that, I happen to really like Downer; in my opinion, it more than deserves those two pages in the magazine.
Downer is great don't mess. And yes it needs more than two pages. Is ever gonna be oneline the whole series.
I could never figure it out; I've stopped trying.
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CEO
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You know, I used to be in the "I don't like Downer" camp. I couldn't follow the story in the two pages each month. I lost track of the characters. So I just gave up and started skipping it every month.
A few weeks ago, Erik Mona challenged me to sit down and read it all in one sitting. I was really surprised. I actually LIKE Downer! It was quirky and fun and entertaining.
I told Erik that I think Downer would be better in graphic novel format than 2-pages in each Dungeon. It just has too much going on to be two pages per month. I can't remember what happend in the past issues. But as a graphic novel, I loved Downer.
Who would have figured?
-Lisa
I could never figure it out; I've stopped trying.
I could never figure it out; I've stopped trying.
Same here. I approach it like a high-level adventure or a psionics article - not something to my taste, but there's plenty of readers who love it, so in it goes.
;)
You know, I used to be in the "I don't like Downer" camp. I couldn't follow the story in the two pages each month. I lost track of the characters. So I just gave up and started skipping it every month.
A few weeks ago, Erik Mona challenged me to sit down and read it all in one sitting. I was really surprised. I actually LIKE Downer! It was quirky and fun and entertaining.
I told Erik that I think Downer would be better in graphic novel format than 2-pages in each Dungeon. It just has too much going on to be two pages per month. I can't remember what happend in the past issues. But as a graphic novel, I loved Downer.
Who would have figured?
-Lisa
I could never figure it out; I've stopped trying.
So Zherog, I think the CEO of everyone's favorite magazine company just called you out! Are you a man or a bard? I say you sit down and take the Downer Challenge. Blindfolded, you read Downer all the way through and then read a current (Marvel) brand X comic book and I'm sure you'll agree Downer wins hands -err- down.
Never get off the boat, man, even for mangos,
GGG
I used to be in the "hate" crowd- I didn't like the writing and I didn't like Hunter's art. (I did, however, like Downer more than Wil Save...)
That all changed over time, it would seem. His art has improved, as has his writing, and his unique takes on various classic D&D mores are worth reading the strip for alone. I mean, seriously: I NEVER know what Hunter is going to pull next. Last issue saw a story told entirely in extreme close-ups with no text whatsoever. This issue brings us a beast that speaks in game stats ("CN Medium Humanoid: (Elf)...")
And going back to the art for a moment, Hunter's style is simplistic and often drab, but that's one of its strengths (to say nothing of one of its more endearing qualities). He is very expressive with the limited and often dank colors he uses. (I said once that Downer needs his own video game. An action title, to be sure. And it needs to be cel-shaded. The style of the comic matches that perfectly.) And frankly, some of the things he does are outright hillarious- Not related to Downer, but the picture last issue, of the Azer cooking breakfast on his head? PRICELESS. Simply priceless!
I love Downer. I read it every issue. Oftentimes the first thing I DO read.
However, I do agree with the people that say that Downer needs to leave Dungeon. It needs to leave Dungeon so it can devote more than a measly two pages a month to what I feel is the best D&D-based strip ever to appear in Dungeon or Dragon. (Champions like Nodwick and up-and-commers like Zogonia and Mt. Zogon notwithstading, I love those strips too.)
But if it does stay in Dungeon, I'm happy with that, too. Keep it comming.
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I have been a Downer fan from the start, of course, which is why I put it in the magazine in the first place. I do agree that the strip is hindered by its size at two pages per month, but that is unlikely to change.
We are in negotiations with Mr. Hunter to publish a collection of the first 30 or so strips in the near future. Having read the whole thing from front to back in a single sitting, it is easier to appreciate the complexity and linger on the visual detail of each page, and everything fits together incredibly well.
I would love to find a way to publish, say, an original Downer graphic novel, but I am unsure if the market is there for such a venture. Publishing wholly new material is a far more complex enterprise than collecting already existing work, and the financial costs are considerable.
What do you say? Would people be interested in original graphic novels of Downer, or for that matter of general fantasy subjects from some of the authors and artists we publish in our magazines?
But a simple collection of Downer (and perhaps other comics as well)?
I daresay it is in the works.
--Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing, LLC
I have been a Downer fan from the start, of course, which is why I put it in the magazine in the first place. I do agree that the strip is hindered by its size at two pages per month, but that is unlikely to change.
We are in negotiations with Mr. Hunter to publish a collection of the first 30 or so strips in the near future. Having read the whole thing from front to back in a single sitting, it is easier to appreciate the complexity and linger on the visual detail of each page, and everything fits together incredibly well.
I would love to find a way to publish, say, an original Downer graphic novel, but I am unsure if the market is there for such a venture. Publishing wholly new material is a far more complex enterprise than collecting already existing work, and the financial costs are considerable.
What do you say? Would people be interested in original graphic novels of Downer, or for that matter of general fantasy subjects from some of the authors and artists we publish in our magazines?
But a simple collection of Downer (and perhaps other comics as well)?
I daresay it is in the works.
--Erik Mona
Publisher
Paizo Publishing, LLC
First off, I'd like to say that I am in the same boat as Lisa and others. I read it every issue but never really got into it. I could take it or leave it. It changed one night way back when I was reading Erik's blog and stumbled onto Kyle's section of SuperUnicorn. He had a collection of 12 or so strips on there. I read the strips in order that way and essentially got hooked. When I went back home i read the strips that he didn't have online and now I really dig on Downer. Yeah, his artwork might not be for everyone but I love his use of colors and the little stuff going on in the panels. Plus, the writing cracks me up sometimes. It's now the second thing I read when I get a new issue (right after Erik's [now James'] 'From the Editor').
I think your best bet would be to publish a compilation kind of thing, with maybe some new filler strips, and see how that goes. I'd probably buy it, depending on the price, even though I have all the issues. Then, based off sales, go about commissioning something original. Of course, I'm an automation engineer and don't know a damn thing about the publishing business so take my opinion for what it is - fairly uneducated and worthless :D
Hey, and tell Kyle to update his site already!
Oh, I'm sorry. I mean JAMES' 'From the Editor'.
Take that, Mona!!!
*sigh*
If I had my druthers, every issue of Dragon and Dungeon would be the size of Cosmo.At least. I want a tome of gaming material.
A magazine the size of a customer service rep?
I'd have to make more shelves...
...
also, for what it's worth, Downer is the second thing I read when I get the magazine (right after the Map of Mystery). Of course, I read both magazines backwards, but that's besides the point...
TK
I'd be game for a Downer compilation, because I did exactly what people are talking about with "The Downer Challenge". Read 'em all back-to-back. It confused but intrigued me before, and I loved it afterwards.
I'd also buy an original Downer comic. Love Kyle Hunter's style, and I do think it needs a bit more room than two pages a month to reach its full bizarre blossoming.
So Zherog, I think the CEO of everyone's favorite magazine company just called you out! Are you a man or a bard? I say you sit down and take the Downer Challenge. Blindfolded, you read Downer all the way through and then read a current (Marvel) brand X comic book and I'm sure you'll agree Downer wins hands -err- down.
Never get off the boat, man, even for mangos,
GGG
GGG - you buy me every copy of Dungeon with Downer that I don't own, and I'll sit down and read them all from the start.
When I got my first copy of Dungeon, Downer was already well into it's plot. I gave it a few months of trying to figure stuff out, and couldn't. So I stopped trying. I suppose it's worsened by my not particularly liking Kyle's style of art, too.
I'm not saying Downer should be removed from the magazine - too many people enjoy it for that to make any sense. I'm simply saying I don't enjoy it, because I don't possess the patience to figure it out or the income to get every strip.
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It seems like Kyle Hunter has a lot more to say (and a lot of interesting stuff to say), but that two pages is just not the optimal space for him to say it.
I couldn't agree with you more, Sebastian. I do really like Downer, but I don't think the two page bite is a good fit.
I really want to keep Downer around, though, and I would be happy with a bit larger serving size.
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*sigh*
If I had my druthers, every issue of Dragon and Dungeon would be the size of Cosmo.At least. I want a tome of gaming material.
A magazine the size of a customer service rep?
I'd have to make more shelves...
...
also, for what it's worth, Downer is the second thing I read when I get the magazine (right after the Map of Mystery). Of course, I read both magazines backwards, but that's besides the point...
TK
I've been wanting to comment on some things -- especially with regards to Dungeon -- but I didn't want to start a new thread, so, this is as good a place as any.
First -- don't get rid of Downer. If you did -- it really would be a "Downer". :-) Seriously, I agree with the above sentiments, but I would prefer to see a compilation rather than an all new graphic novel.
However, more than that, I would like to see Dragon and Dungeon the size of Cosmo.
To the staff at Paizo -- I was taking a look through Dungeon #139 that I just got and I was surprised at how few advertisements there were. While I feel that many people think that many people say that they would prefer fewer ads, I think that more people would prefer a lower cost of the magazine and more information. I really feel that you are greatly missing a lot of untapped markets to advertise in your magazine. You should be tapping into Fantasy and Sci-Fi & Superhero movies, TV shows, books & comic books, video games among other things -- I think it might even be funny to see a breakfast cereal ad. We were looking at an animal magazine subscription for our son and were surprised to find that half (or more) of the magazine was advertisements. (We didn't get that one.) It seems to me that a better "solution" towards getting two more pages of gaming material would be to add 4 more pages to the magazine -- 2 of advertisements and 2 of game material.
If anyone out there thinks that I am wrong, pick up any other magazine off the shelf and compare the number of ads of that magazine to Dungeon or Dragon. I don't know how you people at Paizo do it (especially at the subscription prices).
I like Downer.
I didn't like Wil Save.
ASEO out
This seems like a good place to beg Kyle Hunter to update the Downer web site. If not forward to the future then back to episode #1.
This seems like a good place to beg Kyle Hunter to update the Downer web site. If not forward to the future then back to episode #1.
Indeed!
Kyyyyyyyyle, I promise I help you!!!! :D
Wow. Neat response. So I'm 36 years old, and it took me this long to kinda realize that style is a highly subjective thing. I really REALLY love the music I'm into, and to this day, I have a hard time accepting that not everybody digs the early '70s Welsh folk-rock. It's OK that not everybody likes Downer. I'll be the first to admit that really it's an excercise in style--my take on very non-twee D&D. Frankly, I wish I was a better artist, but I've done pretty good doing the Mignola/McKeever/Hewlett thing. I wish I could start it all over and take more time--take it more seriously. As it is, I'm always late. God bless Sean, Drew, Erik and James for their patience and stunning good looks.
On the website: I have over two years of the best intentions. I really want to get it all up, but then I got to do all the work, self-promote for real work, learn Flash, get all the lettering from Sean, watch TV, play Civ IV, take out my old lady, etc. I have loads of original Downer art waiting to go up on Ebay, but I'm always to bloody swamped with other junk.
So anyway, nice to hear some of y'all are converts. Lisa S. made a nice point of giving me a thumbs up the other day while I was skulking around Paizo's halls for Erik's D&D game.
If you don't like it, you always have Drzzzzt.
Wow. Neat response. So I'm 36 years old, and it took me this long to kinda realize that style is a highly subjective thing. I really REALLY love the music I'm into, and to this day, I have a hard time accepting that not everybody digs the early '70s Welsh folk-rock. It's OK that not everybody likes Downer. I'll be the first to admit that really it's an excercise in style--my take on very non-twee D&D. Frankly, I wish I was a better artist, but I've done pretty good doing the Mignola/McKeever/Hewlett thing. I wish I could start it all over and take more time--take it more seriously. As it is, I'm always late. God bless Sean, Drew, Erik and James for their patience and stunning good looks.
On the website: I have over two years of the best intentions. I really want to get it all up, but then I got to do all the work, self-promote for real work, learn Flash, get all the lettering from Sean, watch TV, play Civ IV, take out my old lady, etc. I have loads of original Downer art waiting to go up on Ebay, but I'm always to bloody swamped with other junk.
So anyway, nice to hear some of y'all are converts. Lisa S. made a nice point of giving me a thumbs up the other day while I was skulking around Paizo's halls for Erik's D&D game.
If you don't like it, you always have Drzzzzt.
I'll help! Pretty please?!?! I need to add some non-work-related websites to my portfolio.
Downer is much cooler than Drzzzzt, probably because one of my players has a character that Downer reminds me of.
Add me into the camp of those that like Downer - it's the first thing I check out when I get a new issue of Dungeon. I love the style, both in terms of the art and the plot.
The only problem I have is that I didn't get to start it from the beginning (and therefore can't do the "Downer Challenge"), and am left picking up the pieces.
If a compilation of some sort ever becomes available (whether at Kyle's home page or what have you), I'd be very happy.
Tried reading it once (in my 1st Dungeon issue) - it made no sense.
Artwork = mediocre at best (IMO)
Don't even bother looking at it these days. Total waste of space IMO.
GGG - you buy me every copy of Dungeon with Downer that I don't own, and I'll sit down and read them all from the start.
You're on bard boy! Just as soon as my lottery number comes up, or I get paid for the next few projects I have in the pipe.
I gave it a few months of trying to figure stuff out, and couldn't.
“Try not. Do or do not. There is no try.”
-Master YodaThe Great Green Guru
I am fascinated by Downer. The story leaves me occasionally baffled but I rather like the art (and what I can understand from the plot).
Mt Zogon is one of my favorite parts of the magazine. I wouldn't mind seeing Portent go, though. I guess you could fit an extra stat block there :)
Don't even bother looking at it these days. Total waste of space IMO.
While I agree with your first statement, I disagree with your second. Way too many people enjoy Downer for it to be a waste of space - even if I'm not one of them.
I'm quite comfortable with the fact that I'm not going to like everything in every issue. I don't like Downer; I don't like Maps of Mystery; I don't like Maure Castle. But a whole heck of a lot of other people do. If the things I don't like in the magazine remain a minority and those same things keep other folks coming back to the magazine, then I don't have any problem with those things being there.
I don't read Downer. I never took the time to read the story which is my decision obviously. So, I wouldn't miss it if it were gone. I'm glad there are those who enjoy it. If it were up to me, I'd prefer two pages of content. Mt Zogon is more in line with the type and size of comic I enjoy in my D&D mags.
I've been reading dungeon for around 2 years now and I cannot follow Downer. There seems to be huge gaps in story. Maybe it's just me and my irrational hatred for anything involving Forgotten Realms and Drow brought on by to many munchins playing drow rangers dual-wielding scimitars having their collective butts saved from Elminster whenever they get in over their heads.
I don't read it and would not miss it. Perhaps a 3 page OOTS is in line :)