Greetings,
This is my first BB Post here, so... hi!
I've just gotten my hands on a copy of the Shackled City Adventure Path as a prospective DM (and at the least, as a reader,) and I've just worked my way through Jzadirune. Before moving on to Malachite, I feel the need to ask, does anyone other than me think Jzadirune's difficulty level is unusually high?
.Beware
.Possible
.Spoiler-age
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The start of the first chapter of the adventure path suggests that the game should start with all 1st level PCs, but a lot of the encounters in the Jzadirune map are effective level 4. Averaging them out (discounting the gear doors and Vanishing) gave me an average EL of 2.72 (feel free to correct my math,) but that doesn't change the fact that most of the encounters are higher EL than the starting PCs. As outlined in the DMG under "very difficult" in the EL section that makes most of them seem rather likely to Whomp one of the PCs outright. Grant you, PCs who do well may level fast, but it seems like an awful steep learning curve.
I'd appreciate input from any of you DMs who've run games through Jzadirune, how your PCs fared, what level they were when they started, how you might have scaled things (seems tough, since a lot of the critters are solitary,) etc. Any of the designers who wanted to chime in on it would be great too, but I know you are a busy lot, no worries!
Oh... and I kind of object to Grell being only CR 3. Full attack of 10 attacks in a round at 10-ft reach is nasty! 1st level PCs against that is going to hurt.
Before moving on to Malachite, I feel the need to ask, does anyone other than me think Jzadirune's difficulty level is unusually high?
Yes. Jzadirune is indeed very difficult. Although bear in mind that:
0) It is designed for 6 PC.
1) The first encounters are almost lonely critters with hit and run tactics (giving PC time for recovering).
2) PC have the Jenya Urikas help. She can provide cure potions, etc. Maybe, they can be accompanied by Ruphus Laro.
2bis) This assumes that PC don't explore the hole dungeon in one single exploration, but with several days.
3) Don't forget the presence of Fario and Fellian (The 3 times I have played this first chapter of SCAP, I always had to make them an helping apperance).
4) Usually, when PC arrive to the Grell room, they are at least from 2nd to 3rd level. But it still is a changelling encounter.
Hope this helps.
Q. (Sorry for my bad english)
I've just gotten my hands on a copy of the Shackled City Adventure Path as a prospective DM (and at the least, as a reader,) and I've just worked my way through Jzadirune. Before moving on to Malachite, I feel the need to ask, does anyone other than me think Jzadirune's difficulty level is unusually high?
yes it is. Then again, the HC is designed for a party of 6 PC's, as opposed to a normal party of 4 PC's. That means that on average, EL should be 1 higher than the average party level to challenge the pc's. Still, the first adventure is fairly tough for a low level party. Make sure the players understand that. Tell them to play it smart and they may survive all the way to 20th level.
At least one member of my party went into negative HP each session we were in jazidrune. Gratuitous use of cure light wounds and a little fudging on my side prevented a TPK on several occasions. Then again, my party consisted of only 3 players, rather than the usual 6.
The party is expected to hit 2nd level well before they reach the malachite hold. Expect about 20 EL 1 encounters for a party of 6. Cound higher EL encounters double or tripple (an EL 3 encounter counts as 3 EL 1 encounters for this purpose).
Depending on the route your party's taking that means they should be level 2, or possibly level 3 by the time they meet the Grell.
personally, I nudged the party in the direction of the lift after two sessions in Jazidrune. Dungeon crawls just get tedious after a while.
At least one member of my party went into negative HP each session we were in jazidrune.
Our five-man party lost two characters in there, and my cleric spent so much time in negatives that the light at the end of the tunnel looked like a strobe!
Based on all the warnings, I did two things to help out the (6) PC's:
1) Action Points
2) I started them out at 2nd level, but with 0 XP. This way they had a bit of a boost in hp during the early levels, but didn't advance too quick for later. It also allowed some characters to start with a 2-class split that fit what they wanted their characters to be (clr/ftr and a rogue/monk "bounty hunter").
Despite my thinking that it might be too hard, my players have been extremely efficient, and have only been rarely challenged to the point that I felt they were in danger. They are higly efficient players, so I should probably give them the credit there. Then again, they are only now getting to the Pit of Seven Jaws in Zenith Trajectory, and that's where most people seem to have earned their entries in the Character Graveyard thread, so perhaps that will change. >:)
Don't forget that the Greel room has been heavily barricaded. The PCs get a good warning before going in and should be prepared.
Thanks for the input. Honestly, I don't know why, but my brain must have kept glossing over the "for six players" part of the adventure somehow. Maybe it's because adventures and ELs are usually assumed and calculated for the standard 4 party group.
Speaking of which, with the busy friends situation I'm currently in, I'm not sure if I can manage gathering more than 4 players at a time. Think maybe I should start them at 2nd levelish, or toss in an NPC or two? Other scaling thoughts? I've thought a little bit about the idea of scaling the adventure by replacing the Dark Creepers statistically with 1st or 2nd lvl goblin rogues (but still describing them as Dark Creepers,) but I don't know, might take out too much of the nasty flavor from them.
Speaking of which, with the busy friends situation I'm currently in, I'm not sure if I can manage gathering more than 4 players at a time. Think maybe I should start them at 2nd levelish, or toss in an NPC or two? Other scaling thoughts? I've thought a little bit about the idea of scaling the adventure by replacing the Dark Creepers statistically with 1st or 2nd lvl goblin rogues (but still describing them as Dark Creepers,) but I don't know, might take out too much of the nasty flavor from them.
I wouldn't do it. If you are gonna play with 4 player. It's fine. Just drop Fario and Fellian to help early after they enter Jzadirune. It you are still worried use Action Points. I started SCAP with 3 players + Action points + Good characteristics + F&F Help. They managed to survive until Aushanna (from Zenith chapter) came in.
Also bear in mind that although the Grell can attack 10 times in one round, it can only hit once: it's flailing away at a single target until it hits it.
Also consider the distances--it's only 30' down the stairs from Ghelve's Locks to the entry hall, so two or three rounds gets people completely out of the dungeon. You could station a few city guards in the rooms to fend off monsters.
Speaking of which, with the busy friends situation I'm currently in, I'm not sure if I can manage gathering more than 4 players at a time. Think maybe I should start them at 2nd levelish, or toss in an NPC or two? Other scaling thoughts?
Here are some ideas to help your party:
1) If you're using a point-buy system for ability scores, up the number of points your players can use for their characters. Typical point-buy values I've seen are 22, 25, 28, and 32. Definitely consider 28 or 32 points. (I used a 32-point buy system.)2) Consider using gestalt characters. I saw this concept in Unearthed Arcana, but I thought someone mentioned it being part of the SRD. (I can't find that thread, though.) The basic idea is for the characters to advance in two classes at every level, taking the best of both classes.
3) Use Action Points. An extra d6 here and there can make a world of difference.
4) Make generous use of Fario and Fellian, or create your own NPC that'll better fill in the gaps for the group. Just be careful -- NPCs should be background characters, not stars of the show. That role's reserved for the PCs. :-) Many players will get tired of the, "Oh, look, we're in trouble and here come Fario and Fellian to save the day," scenario, too.
5) Consider allowing them to use more powerful non-standard races, with or without the accompanying level adjustment. Be careful with this; there's a high potential for abuse here. (I've never used it, so this is purely theoretical.)
I don't know that starting the PCs at level 2 will necessarily help in the long run, because eventually they're going to be right back down at the "proper" level for the adventure.
I'd rather spend my time adding background and flavor to the campaign than spend it scaling encounters, so my advice is skewed in that direction.
Good luck!
Good advice from Mr Stop. I like the idea of gestalt characters although I haven't gone that way with my campaign.These are the ways I helped ensure my party has a reasonable chance of survival.
1.I used 32 point buy for character generation.
2.The characters start with max hp and then they have a sliding scale of minimum hp per level.
3. They get action points instead of xp for defeating creatures and good roleplaying. (this is because I decide when they level)
4.They will each gain a special item(s) that are micro artifacts and specifically tailored to them and level with them.
5.Soon they will be gaining a parasitic ally that will help them substantially
Kudos back to Mr. Zeal!
2.The characters start with max hp and then they have a sliding scale of minimum hp per level.
I did something similar, but I just gave them a fixed amount of hit points at every level (75%, rounded down) after 1st (which was max).
4.They will each gain a special item(s) that are micro artifacts and specifically tailored to them and level with them.
I really like this idea and I'd like to implement something similar. Do you have an example of how an item levels with the character?
5.Soon they will be gaining a parasitic ally that will help them substantially
OK, my interest is piqued. Details?
5.Soon they will be gaining a parasitic ally that will help them substantiallyOK, my interest is piqued. Details?
I introduced a magical object brother of Alakast. It is a metal helmet (as Merlin in the Excalibur movie) engraved in runes from which his bearer (1/day) can summon a griffon who was the "pet" of Surabar (more or less like Drizz's black panther) also given by Nidrama. By this magical object I introduced Surabar Spellmason early in the campaign (at the end of Darkthar's Way) as a powerful wizard creator and protector of the city. Thus the griffon only helps those who show the proper braveness and good intentions.
Q. (sorry for my bad english)
Jeffrey,
I basically had an endpoint for the item, which to be honest is usually pretty powerful, and then broke it's powers down into twenty sections each corresponding to a level. Of course the early levels usually provide lesser powers and they increase as the levels increase.
I looked at the treasure levels for each level and tried to make the 'item of legacy(s) worth about (very approx) one quarter to one third of the standard treasure value. At 20th level that makes a 250,000 gp item, which is very powerful.
Sometimes they level simply based on the characters level, and sometimes this is just a guide for me to see when the item should gain new abilities e.g I have a dwarven cleric who has claimed the Malachite Fortress for dwarves again and has a reasonable clan going on there. They are so grateful that they have created a magical weapon for him. Every time he returns to the Fortress they take his weapon away and enhance it further and I use the levelling guide I created to know what abilities to give it.
I have another set of item for my rogue/ninja that increase in power as more of the set is acquired. One item has one power, two items both have two powers awakened, three items have thress powers each ......
With regard to the parasitic ally: My campaign has recently involved the players journeying into the Sea of Dust to save a companion and discovering they are from the ancient Suloise race that inhabited these lands. These people fled and migrated westwards after the rain of colourless fire. Many including Surabar were descendents of these people and settled Cauldron. This ancient civilisation was like ancient Egypt. In their journey they discovered an ancient priesthood and helped them defeat tomb raiders of a sort. As a reward from the God Set one of the PC's has received a "blessing". A strange scarab beetle has burrowed into the characters body and has attached itself to her central nervous system. This will provide a few benefits for the PC and eventually the beetle will multiply and inhabit other PC's.
If you want specifics I'll have to post that later as a certain 16 month old daughter of mine is making it difficult to write anything at the moment........
Thanks for all the great advice, folks! As of this writing, last night I've set about going through character creation with two of my party members, a fighting type (Swashbuckler,) and a healer-type (Favored Soul) Based on the thread, I've decided to go with a 32 point-buy spread with everyone, and it's working well so far. I believe the introduction of Action Points may be a pretty good fit now that I've thought about it, so I'm planning on using them.
Gestalt characters is interesting as a concept, but I've been holding back on it until I can get a good look at my roommate's Unearthed Arcana. I also want to see if I can chat the idea up with my players, I don't know if they'll go for the idea.
I've still got 1-3 more players more to wrangle in, and I'll be impressed if I manage to land 5.
----
Also bear in mind that although the Grell can attack 10 times in one round, it can only hit once: it's flailing away at a single target until it hits it.
Oh... and as a side note... quoting the Lords of Madness, page 108, "a grell can attack as many foes as it can reach, using as many of its tentacles as it wishes against any single opponent", and on page 109, "creatures struck by multiple tentacles in the same round do not make multiple saving throws," and nothing in its entry suggests to me a Grell with full-attack has to stop trying to make hits once it successfully makes one, which means it can really flense a PC. And it can choose multiple opponents, if they present themselves.
For another example, a troll has 2 claw attacks and one bite. If it hits someone with one claw, that doesn't mean it can't also try and hit someone with the other claw and the bite. In fact, it's rend ability depends on it hitting with both claws.
I apologise if I'm dwelling too much on this grell thing. I had a higher level PC construct-maker who built a clockwork Grell, and it was pretty nasty in a fight.
The Grell has improved grab. If it hits with a tentacle and wants to grab, then it can't use any more tentacles attacks (unless it wants to take the -20 to the grapple). Yeah, the Grell could stand there and flail away, not bothering with a grab. I played it as a hungry animal - attack 1 person, paralyse him, grapple, and fly off.
If you want specifics I'll have to post that later as a certain 16 month old daughter of mine is making it difficult to write anything at the moment........
Thanks, zeal. Yeah, if you get a moment, I'd appreciate more of the mechanics on these things. Right now, I seem to have DM's block in coming up with exactly how I could make these things work and my party's at the level I'd like to start introducing some of this kind of stuff.
Just finished chapter one, so I thought I'd comment.
The grell actually klled our dwarven barbarian. Well, the fall killed him, the grell was just the instigator. Well, I guess technically our wizard casting Ray of Enfeeblement on the grell caused the grell to drop what he was holding, but...
The pulverizer automatons also were tough. I didn't think there was a chance my PC's would make it out of the room with the invisibility spheres in it. I had to pull some serious blows in that room that I still feel guilty about. I actually had Meerthon himself teleport into the dungeon and kill the thing for the PC's, as one of the PC's is a Strider of Fharlanghn.
The big trouble in Jzadirune though was finding the elevator. I didn't think the PC's would ever find it. +6 search wasn't cutting it to find the secret doors (or the necessary keys), and the party killed everything they came across without interrogating it. I finally had the Dark Stalker make a deal with the PC's to show them the way if they would stop killing off his minions. Took two long and boring sessions for that to happen though.
The grell actually klled our dwarven barbarian. Well, the fall killed him, the grell was just the instigator. Well, I guess technically our wizard casting Ray of Enfeeblement on the grell caused the grell to drop what he was holding, but...
That's another thing that bothers me about this encounter: the whole grell paralyzes one character then carries him off thing. Even assuming that the grell can fly with its maximum load, that's only 130 pounds. That must have been one light dwarf. :p
The big trouble in Jzadirune though was finding the elevator. I didn't think the PC's would ever find it. +6 search wasn't cutting it to find the secret doors (or the necessary keys), and the party killed everything they came across without interrogating it. I finally had the Dark Stalker make a deal with the PC's to show them the way if they would stop killing off his minions. Took two long and boring sessions for that to happen though.
Ugh. I had a similar experience, plus a player who felt the map room was just meant for them to look in EVERY SINGLE ROOM.
So I ran Drakthar with much more general mapping directions so it was hard for them to map, and sped it by as fast as I could.
Next, Flood Season. My players are in for a TPK, I just know it. I hate TPKs.
- Ashavan
I don't know if I should put it here, or create a new thread for it, probably, "Shackled City on 3 Heroes a Day,"
(You know, kinda like those shows where they... like... the best resteraunts... on a limited budget.... heh... yeah anyway,)
But it looks like, right now, the largest adventure group I might be able to pull together is going to be three. I have a Swashbuckler gnome, an elf Favored Soul, and an undecided... and I don't know if I'll be able to get anyone else. I might find another member this weekend, but I might not.
In the event of that, I was thinking of having Fario and Fellian join the party as semi-permenent NPC members rather than just tailing them and jumping in to help if things get crazy in "Life's Bizaare." I would leave the initiative up to the PCs, since the two have higher goals to serve and need to stay a bit aloof (and the PC heroes need to be the heroes,) but I think they could help keep things balanced a bit. The alternative seems to involve doing a whole lot of retrofitting & scaling.
I started scap with just 3 players. they did fine right up to Crazy Jared's hut, where a luckey blast from the dragon's breath weapon dropped the fighter way beyond -10.
You sould be fine with 3 players, as long as you're carefull about what you throw at them. Make sure the EL isn't more that 2 points above the average party level. If it is (the bbeg in a certain adventure), give them a chance to rest and reload on spells.
As for a decent party mix: encourage the 3rd player to take an arcane caster of some sort. Wizard is best because of the versatility, but a sorcerer or warlock should work too.
Fighters and clerics are your best choice in regard to support characters, and a bard (as a 5th or 6th party member) should help too.
Actually, if you're open to running SCAP with three gestalt characters, you don't have to worry about retrofitting and rescaling. Our group started with three gestalts: fighter/rogue, monk/wizard, and psion/cleric, and they survived Jzadirune, although, as someone above also mentioned, someone went into negative hp every session. I also use the variant rule that death occurs at negative Con rather than negative ten hp, to give them a better chance. Towards the end of Jzadirune, they were joined by a barbarian sorcerer, but they're still finding it challenging. Prickles took two of them into negative hp at the end of the Malachite Fortress adventure.
--Fang
I also somehow missed that this AP was geared for 6 rather than the standard 4. And here I thought my party of 5 players was just being a bunch of cry babies (/evil laugh). We only lost one member in Jzadirune (gnome wizard)and that was because he forced my hand. Let's just say he "shot the hostage to take him out of the equation" and I felt the beholder should give him more than I slap on the wrist for that(even if they manage to get him unstoned, the death ray still got him too).
There have been several instances of near TPK but they always manage to squeek by and I've yet to have to "save" them. He do use the action pont rules as they apear in the Unearthed Arcana (gives a few more options than the Eberron rules) and I was generous with a 32 point stat buy (and they still whined at first, but now they feel they are too powerful).
We're currently in Flood Season and the group is just a tad ahead of where I expected them to be EXP-wise (they are very thorough explorers) but now I know why. They just lost their second member ( a spell-thief) in the Lucky Monkey.
Let's just say he "shot the hostage to take him out of the equation"
He killed Terrem rather than let the beholder take him?!? Just what alignment is this character?
I don't know if I should put it here, or create a new thread for it, probably, "Shackled City on 3 Heroes a Day,"
I've been running Shackled City with three PCs. Actually it's only two actual PCs, but I made my own character sheet for Ruphus and threw him in as their third party member, run by me. The PCs are an elven monk and an elven rogue/scout. I started them all at 2nd level for Life's Bazaar. Right now they've completed Life's Bazaar and are halfway through Drakthar's Way, and they're close to hitting 6th level.
I do use Action Points, which are a HUGE boost. If the PCs are smart enough to save their action points for critical rolls, I'd say action points are equivalent to at least +1 level.
The other house rule I use is that if PCs are not satisfied with their first hit point roll, they can hand me the die and I'll make a second roll, but they are stuck with the second result.
Jzadirune was pretty challenging for them, but there were no PC deaths (several times they went below 0 though). The grell fight nearly resulted in TPK, and the final fight against Kazmojen almost was a TPK as well. The animated chain fight was also extremely challenging due to having no arcane casters or psionicists and no weapons that could cut its damage resistance.
So far Drakthar's Way has been a cakewalk for them, but I wanted them to be 6th before Flood Season.
Well if you can only wrangle 3 players, can I make an unorthodox suggestion?
Allow each player to make 2 characters. That way you end up with the appropriate number of heroes and you open up some interesting things.
When the roleplaying around Cauldron starts to come up after the Malachite Hold, having the opportunity to split the party and complete various tasks in down time is invaluable.
To keep everyone straight give everyone two signs, just hold up the character you are currently playing as and it shouldn't be too difficult.
Just an odd thought.
My two cents about Gestalt, I've played in a number of Gestalt games. It is an invaluable system if you are short on players, in my time I've played a Swashbuckler/Rogue, a Fighter/Rogue and a Druid/Sorceror. (I like lightly armoured archetypes). I found that the versatility provided by Gestalt is great, and allows a small party to have all the skills they need to bypass practically any situation. Just remember though that an average party of six will have a total hp of about 42, while a gestalt party of 3 will have a total hp of about 26 so they will need to rest more regularly. Action Points help a bit by lessening bad rolls and increasing the number of good rolls.
Anyways good luck in your game.
Allow each player to make 2 characters. That way you end up with the appropriate number of heroes and you open up some interesting things.
I certainly considered it in my case. I decided not to do this because in the past when I've seen players play multiple characters, it really takes away from the roleplaying. When a player controls one character he feels (in some sense) that he is that character, and he sees the world from that viewpoint. But when he controls multiple characters, it feels more like a strategy game. The player is removed from the world and becomes a more abstract entity.
To give a concrete example, I actually am playing one of the party members (the cleric Ruphus) as I GM the game. And I really can't bring myself to care that much about him, I just have too much else to worry about. If he was my own personal PC that I was playing in the world, I would choose his actions more carefully, spend more time going over every aspect of his character sheet, and care a lot more whether he lived or died. I would see the game world from his perspective, instead of my omniscient behind-the-GM-screen viewpoint.
Of course, my comments are based solely on myself and groups I've been in, I'm sure there are some players who would thrive with multiple characters and become emotionally invested in each of them. I just haven't met these players yet.
...in the past when I've seen players play multiple characters, it really takes away from the roleplaying. When a player controls one character he feels (in some sense) that he is that character, and he sees the world from that viewpoint. But when he controls multiple characters, it feels more like a strategy game. The player is removed from the world and becomes a more abstract entity.
My group feels the same way. We started SCAP with three players and I gave them two options--2 characters each or gestalt. Even with the disadvantage of only having 3 actions per round with a gestalt party, they chose to go that route, because nobody wanted to split their attention between two characters.
--Fang
Thanks, zeal. Yeah, if you get a moment, I'd appreciate more of the mechanics on these things. Right now, I seem to have DM's block in coming up with exactly how I could make these things work and my party's at the level I'd like to start introducing some of this kind of stuff.If you want specifics I'll have to post that later as a certain 16 month old daughter of mine is making it difficult to write anything at the moment........
Jeffrey,
If you could e-mail me it would be a lot easier and I would be happy to give you what I've got.
tommy.quiet.dog@gmail.com