Since it is spreading over the message boards, does anyone want to decide upon a (serious :P ) definition of what a munchkin player is?
Kalin
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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No. In fact, I'd be happier if we could just ban such discussions outright. I'd rather talk about making Eberron the core setting or running a party of drow ninjas through the Tomb of Horrors. I'd rather discuss whether wizards can actually learn cure light wounds because it's an arcane spell on the bard spell list. I'd rather argue about the proper pricing for a nose ring of True Strike. The best answer I've seen is by Aubrey the Malformed. Everything else that has been said on the subject is the same old tired crap.
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No. In fact, I'd be happier if we could just ban such discussions outright. I'd rather talk about making Eberron the core setting or running a party of drow ninjas through the Tomb of Horrors. I'd rather discuss whether wizards can actually learn cure light wounds because it's an arcane spell on the bard spell list. I'd rather argue about the proper pricing for a nose ring of True Strike. The best answer I've seen is by Aubrey the Malformed. Everything else that has been said on the subject is the same old tired crap.
Thank you, that's very kind. And it's nice to have a bit of support - I sometimes wonder if I'm just a weird old curmudgeon railing against the world. I have always considered your comments to be thoughtful and elegant - now you have just proved it! :-)
Oh, and I agree - I'd really like to ban all discussion of munchkins, if only for the sake of my blood pressure.
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Thank you, that's very kind. And it's nice to have a bit of support - I sometimes wonder if I'm just a weird old curmudgeon railing against the world. I have always considered your comments to be thoughtful and elegant - now you have just proved it! :-)
Oh, and I agree - I'd really like to ban all discussion of munchkins, if only for the sake of my blood pressure.
No, thank you. For a while, I was one of the few voices deriding the use of the term munchkinism on these boards. Once you started posting a much shorter and more eloquent argument than I ever managed to spit out, I figured the cause had a better advocate than I, and quieted down.
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No. In fact, I'd be happier if we could just ban such discussions outright. I'd rather talk about making Eberron the core setting or running a party of drow ninjas through the Tomb of Horrors. I'd rather discuss whether wizards can actually learn cure light wounds because it's an arcane spell on the bard spell list. I'd rather argue about the proper pricing for a nose ring of True Strike. The best answer I've seen is by Aubrey the Malformed. Everything else that has been said on the subject is the same old tired crap.
Sorry, I'm with you guys' protocol. I guess I should've put "fuel for debate" in parentheses.
Munchkins are a diminuative race of chromatic skinned humanoids which form themselves into guilds, perveyors of assorted confections (including lollypops) and dwelling in small communal cottage style structures connected by roadways of ocre color. They have an adversarial relationship with powerful female spellcasters affiliated with certain cardinal directions, however their dealings were made considerably easier by the recent interposition of a falling piece of rural real estate. Their favored class is bard.
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Munchkins are a diminuative race of chromatic skinned humanoids which form themselves into guilds, perveyors of assorted confections (including lollypops) and dwelling in small communal cottage style structures connected by roadways of ocre color. They have an adversarial relationship with powerful female spellcasters affiliated with certain cardinal directions, however their dealings were made considerably easier by the recent interposition of a falling piece of rural real estate. Their favored class is bard.
WHAT!!! Have I misunderstood all along?
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I sometimes wonder if I'm just a weird old curmudgeon railing against the world.
What's wrong with being a weird old curmudgeon? Personally, I would prefer that to being a normal young whippersnapper. My friends always tell me that I'm destined to be that old guy who sits on his porch and shakes his cane at all the young people who bother him. Its either that or I'll be like the "scary german guy" (except I'd be scary zombie guy).
A munchkin is someone who has total disregard behind the SPIRIT of the game/rule by using the mechanics to build the most powerful (usually combat-oriented) character possible.
A power-gaming munchkin takes any opportunity to minimize any weaknesses the character may have as a result of the munchkin choices from above, at the expense of role-playing potential.
(Did I just feed the Troll?)
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A munchkin is someone who has total disregard behind the SPIRIT of the game/rule by using the mechanics to build the most powerful (usually combat-oriented) character possible.
A power-gaming munchkin takes any opportunity to minimize any weaknesses the character may have as a result of the munchkin choices from above, at the expense of role-playing potential.
(Did I just feed the Troll?)
And what, exactly, is the SPIRIT of the game? Answer quickly - this troll bites!
And what, exactly, is the SPIRIT of the game? Answer quickly - this troll bites!
Mutual enjoyment of the game.
A munchkin takes advantage of the rules to remove any challenges, sidelining other players (and the DM) in the process. If everyone is enjoying the game, who cares?
Down, troll! :P
And what, exactly, is the SPIRIT of the game? Answer quickly - this troll bites!Mutual enjoyment of the game.
A munchkin takes advantage of the rules to remove any challenges, sidelining other players (and the DM) in the process. If everyone is enjoying the game, who cares?
Down, troll! :P
***BZZZT***
Sorry that doesn't corrospond to the uses observed here at paizo! You may pick up your conselation prize of a year's supply of left handed socks at the door. Thank you for playing! ;-)
Seriously Aubery's is about the best defination I've seen - that it is a derogatory term used to belittle other, usually younger, gamers. It's use is best discarded.
Now about these drow ninjas.....are they female drow ninja babes?
Since it is spreading over the message boards, does anyone want to decide upon a (serious :P ) definition of what a munchkin player is?
Kalin
Munchkin vs. Roleplayer...
Munchkin: Plays to win
Roleplayer: Plays to experience
Munchkin: Plays for reward(i.e. power, fame, magic, wealth)
Roleplayer: Plays for adventure(i.e fun)
Munchkin: Prefers action
Roleplayer: Prefers interaction
Munchkin: Uses the rules to 'perfect' their character
Roleplayer: Uses the rules to facilitate play and make it enjoyable for everyoneAnything else?
Ah, i see. Could have just said "plays like they're in a MMO, not a roleplaying game." Also seems like a more derrogatory definition of a power gamer.
tangent: How do you help a Munchkin in your group if he/she wants to change but doesn't have the foggiest what roleplaying is all about?
Can I confess something? I really think munchkin is a stupid term. I understand what people mean when they use it, but I use other terms myself--usually power-gamer or number-cruncher, but there are others.
Munchkin, as I take it, is mostly related to players who try to compensate with a powerful character because they themselves are little guys with high whiney voices who just florp around, and they need a coolzor character to compensate for their lame lives.
The irony is that the majority of people who I have seen who prefer the term, are usually those it best applies to--and are just raw because someone found a way to break the rules better than they did or have sunk lower than they could. It's like when a bunch of goths get together and start trying to measure how goth this person is to that person when, well they're all pretty goth in the first place.
I agree with the Grimmers. "Munchkin" is a Kovalic card game. An awesome one. Not a Level 20 Half-Dragon/Quarter-Elven/Quarter-Gnomish Barbarian/Abjurer/Cleric of Kord gestalt born and raised in the wild by monastic wolves which allows him several flanking and Ki abilities.
I'm used to using rules-lawyer, min-maxer, and twinkie (a re-stylized "tweaker" to be more derogatory).
It's just a game.
Have fun, or play with other people.I thought it was pretty simple.
Here's a new one..."It's really just about having fun" for no apparent reason...hum...
As ever,
ACE
That's the problem. It's JUST about having fun. "Fun" is a fairly nebulous concept that encompass one person's Tea Ceremony and another person's Sweet Drift In A Honda Civic at the same time.
By allowing the broad defintion of "fun" one allows the incorporation of a very diverse set of often diametrically opposed tastes.
Because D&D is open to everybody, everybody plays it. Who actually LIKES everybody, though?
Curse you, Gygax! Do it over, but do it right next time! Pre-exclude those with tastes and wants that differ from mine, so I don't have to kick them out myself!
Munchkins have weaknesses, they just aren't exploitable.
When was the last time a monk needed money (i.e. Vow of Poverty)?
Munchkins have weaknesses, they just aren't exploitable.
When was the last time a monk needed money (i.e. Vow of Poverty)?
Well one can use range weapons and such but basically I agree with you. For me Munchkin is any use of the rules that essentially the DM either can't use back at you or severly limits the DMs options in designing encounters.
I can't remember the name of the poster but a DM came on the boards asking for help maybe two months ago with a problem. His players started every fight with some kind of enhanced maximized fireballs or some such and essentially every monster in the fight immediatly took 200 points of damage. I suggested using the same trick against them but the DM pointed out that if he did that they all die even if they made their saves. Instant automatic TPK and his campaign collapses. At which point I and every one else could offer basically nothing useful beyond 'use almost nothing but creatures with insanely high SR'. Hardly ideal.
That's the ultimate in munchcanny IMO. A combo so powerful that your DM is unable to use it against you without destroying his own game.
Im not even touching this one with my + 9 Staff of Whacking that I found leaning up against the dungeon door.
I can't remember the name of the poster but a DM came on the boards asking for help maybe two months ago with a problem. His players started every fight with some kind of enhanced maximized fireballs or some such and essentially every monster in the fight immediatly took 200 points of damage. I suggested using the same trick against them but the DM pointed out that if he did that they all die even if they made their saves. Instant automatic TPK and his campaign collapses. At which point I and every one else could offer basically nothing useful beyond 'use almost nothing but creatures with insanely high SR'. Hardly ideal.
That's the ultimate in munchcanny IMO. A combo so powerful that your DM is unable to use it against you without destroying his own game.
While I'm very sympathetic to this DM, this is craziness.
This is when you take the players aside and explain the situation (best), cause all fire magic in the region to fail (there's a mystery for the PCs to explore), or simply retire the characters and begin anew at 1st level -- problem solved.I'm dealing with a low-level (pun) munchkin/power-gamer now, and it's annoying. He's a good friend, long-time player, a decent role-player, but he's very good at "playing the numbers" and never seems to have any fighters with less than 17 Str, etc. (When the stats are rolled low, he somehow talks the DM into "tweaking" his character at bit" (switching Int, Wis, or Chr for one of the physical stats) or that PC soon gets retired in favor of another...) If there are other fighters in the party, he's not happy unless his guy hits the most, does the most damage, etc. As a part-time DM, it's frustrating. Sigh.
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I can't remember the name of the poster but a DM came on the boards asking for help maybe two months ago with a problem. His players started every fight with some kind of enhanced maximized fireballs or some such and essentially every monster in the fight immediatly took 200 points of damage. I suggested using the same trick against them but the DM pointed out that if he did that they all die even if they made their saves. Instant automatic TPK and his campaign collapses. At which point I and every one else could offer basically nothing useful beyond 'use almost nothing but creatures with insanely high SR'. Hardly ideal.
That's the ultimate in munchcanny IMO. A combo so powerful that your DM is unable to use it against you without destroying his own game.
Oh, come on, use some imagination. Fire giants? Red dragons? Salamanders? Fire elementals? An insurmountable problem? Hardly. Why not use creatures with high SR? A rakshasa is a perfectly valid encounter. When I see this thing, the "munchkin" is a power-gamer who "beats" the DM - that is the DMs problem more than anything, as he lacks the imagination and experience to deal with the issue.
While I'm very sympathetic to this DM, this is craziness. This is when you take the players aside and explain the situation (best), cause all fire magic in the region to fail (there's a mystery for the PCs to explore), or simply retire the characters and begin anew at 1st level -- problem solved.
I'm dealing with a low-level (pun) munchkin/power-gamer now, and it's annoying. He's a good friend, long-time player, a decent role-player, but he's very good at "playing the numbers" and never seems to have any fighters with less than 17 Str, etc. (When the stats are rolled low, he somehow talks the DM into "tweaking" his character at bit" (switching Int, Wis, or Chr for one of the physical stats) or that PC soon gets retired in favor of another...) If there are other fighters in the party, he's not happy unless his guy hits the most, does the most damage, etc. As a part-time DM, it's frustrating. Sigh.
The power-gamers you describe all have weaknesses - any specialised character does. So the character is a combat wizz - try some roleplaying with creatures and NPCs he can't attack. A few failed diplomacy checks later and they will get it. And if they get narked about it, tough - there are more skills in the game than just combat.
The issue of the maximized fireballs is an interesting one. But, I do also recall an entry in Dungeon's submission guidelines that advised high-level mazes shouldn't inhibit teleport and what not in that the players have the high-level toys to play with, not to hold and know they have. Kind of thing.
It's not just that the "player is winning against the DM" but that the DM think's he's "losing to the player."
The DM is a referee who says what works and what doesn't. He doesn't tally a score. He narrarates the monsters reactions based on the literature available, and the monsters or PCs get points based on the result. The DM is the messenger.
A Munchkin is the same kind of person who trainer-hacks in Diablo, reads walk-throughs, had a Game Genie for the NES... It may be a deap-seated self-confidence issue, or it may simply be a phase of desiring to win as they haven't had much winning in real life. Pretty much everyone I know played their first online games of Diablo with maximized gear, then got bored fast as the challenge was gone. Probably the player won't find infinite solace in 200-damage fireballs and the resultant immortality. it will become bland to him.
Eventually, these players do take a 3 on a synergy stat to challenge themselves and get a true feeling of worth after the emptiness of munchkinism sets in.
Maybe in that DM's case I'd present him with some even more boring and less challenging things than fire-resistant ones. That player will want other things soon enough and may be more pliable to restarting with different tactics in mind.
I can't remember the name of the poster but a DM came on the boards asking for help maybe two months ago with a problem. His players started every fight with some kind of enhanced maximized fireballs or some such and essentially every monster in the fight immediatly took 200 points of damage. I suggested using the same trick against them but the DM pointed out that if he did that they all die even if they made their saves. Instant automatic TPK and his campaign collapses. At which point I and every one else could offer basically nothing useful beyond 'use almost nothing but creatures with insanely high SR'. Hardly ideal.
Heh, this was my dilemma and Jeremy here has the gist of it. My issue wasn't that the PCs COULD do this much damage in one round, rather that this kind of party tactic greatly limits the kinds of challenges that a DM can integrate into a middle level campaign (around 10th level) WITHOUT it seeming contrived. Aubry points out the obvious...fire resistant creatures, spell resistant monsters, walls of force, etc. I could already see them rolling their eyes "Oh, what do you know...ANOTHER fire elemental encounter" ZZZZZZ Ah, the old wall of force trick...HOW did they know that was coming???
The other most common suggestion "Just give them the TPK and be done with it"...well, if you only get together to play once every two months in a campain driven game (not just roll up some characters and go), TPKs should be avoided at all costs or we run the risk of closing down the group. Thus, it becomes a metagame tactic that hamstrings the DM...Players can count on dying a few times over a 3 year long campaign to 20th level but shouldn't fear the TPK.
I know it's off topic, but the damage thing really isn't that bad...it just forces me to come up with creative new ways to manage it. Basically more work for the DM.
As ever,
ACE
PS - There has to be a better way to determine a match other than penalty shots...
PS - Long-term forechecking. Have a villain cut a finger off his casting hand. Needs to find a means to regenerate it, or gain still-spell. THEN, have a villain cut out his tongue. Needs to find a means to regenerate it, or gain silent-spell. THEN, have a theif steal the pages from his spellbook. Needs to re-scribe and secure his spellbook (but who sells or trades a might fireball?). THEN, equip an ambush party outside the Lich's lair with the various Naj's equipment (swaps spells). Needs to stop and re-prepare a few times.
---OR---
Ring of Spell-Turning. Player decides his own fate.
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Munchkins have weaknesses, they just aren't exploitable.
When was the last time a monk needed money (i.e. Vow of Poverty)?
Well one can use range weapons and such but basically I agree with you. For me Munchkin is any use of the rules that essentially the DM either can't use back at you or severly limits the DMs options in designing encounters.
I can't remember the name of the poster but a DM came on the boards asking for help maybe two months ago with a problem. His players started every fight with some kind of enhanced maximized fireballs or some such and essentially every monster in the fight immediatly took 200 points of damage. I suggested using the same trick against them but the DM pointed out that if he did that they all die even if they made their saves. Instant automatic TPK and his campaign collapses. At which point I and every one else could offer basically nothing useful beyond 'use almost nothing but creatures with insanely high SR'. Hardly ideal.
What you need is a nice forest. A nice forest with a druid. A nice forest with a druid who strikes back with righteous and furious anger at any city slicker that wants to go randomly chucking fireballs around in his forest. And who, what with a high wisdom and all, knows that summoning some nice salamanders and nice fire elementals to punish these callow sots would kinda be along the lines of sensible.
Then, it's fire giant time.And drow.
And demons and devils and such OH MY!!!
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PS - There has to be a better way to determine a match other than penalty shots...
I'm not a football fan. I'm now quite glad England are out, as all the jingoistic idiocy (we never had a chance of winning - ever - and particulalrly not the way the team was playing) and domination of all the media will now mitigate somewhat.
Not to say I wouldn't take a modicum of pride if we won or gave a good showing. But, y'know, I can't get weepy over it.
But yeah, penalties. But the game is pretty dumb anyway. The offside rule?
I'm not a football fan. I'm now quite glad England are out, as all the jingoistic idiocy (we never had a chance of winning - ever - and particulalrly not the way the team was playing) and domination of all the media will now mitigate somewhat.
Not to say I wouldn't take a modicum of pride if we won or gave a good showing. But, y'know, I can't get weepy over it.
But yeah, penalties. But the game is pretty dumb anyway. The offside rule?
Yeah we had all that too, and we had even less of a chance than you guys.
It was unbelievable, after we beat Japan the Aussie media was all "you never know, we may just beat Brazil." No, media, no we won't. It's freaking BRAZIL. Australia's only ever been in the damn thing once before, Brazil are what, five time winners?
I still felt let down when we lost though, because of all the media speculation. A small (stupid) part of me was expecting some sort of Rocky-esque comeback, as were most Aussies I think.
I understand what people mean when they use it, but I use other terms myself--usually power-gamer or number-cruncher, but there are others.
Since the original post asked....
Problem is, munchkin and power-gamer are NOT the same thing in my opinion. While all munchkins are power-gamers, not all power-gamers are munchkins.
A power-gamer is not precluded from explaining WHY his / her character is the way it is, can function with that character as part of the group, and doesn't necessarily make the other players seriously consider whether they want to continue coming.
A munchkin has no idea or explanation of the character's development, functions counter productive to the group because he or she can, and tends to drive your other players away becasue they've stopped having fun.
Munchkin and power-gamer are not interchangable terms.
I posted this a few months ago, much to Aubrey's anger. So he it is again:
Ecology of the Munchkin
An Essay by Blackdragon MD (Munchkin Destroyer)
Of all the most curious creatures encountered in the D&D world, the Munchkin is the most vile of them all. Not to be confused with the Power Gamer, an obvious mistake, sometimes even causing the Munchkin to mistake themselves for one of these powerful creatures.
What is a Munchkin? Many people have tried to define the affliction known as Munchkinism. Some believe it is transmitted by bite like lycanthropy, or from drinking from the same Mountain Dew bottle as the Munchkin. This is not the case. A Munchkin is easily spotted at the gaming table. When asked their characters name, or background, they stumble over it. They have little information as to the characters history, and if they have a physical description, it will sound eerily similar to the last character they ran. They will proclaim themselves true Roleplayers, but they cannot live up to the conduct and tactic of these noble creatures. Ask a Munchkin about their character, they will excitedly tell you about all the stuff that they have! The Feats and Skills that they have stacked together in ways that WotC had never dreamed of (or intended). They will talk about all of the loopholes that they have found in the rules and how they argue the letter of the rules while knowing full well, the spirit of the rules intends no such thing. They will equip their characters with equipment that is contrary to their class, and not even flinch at the thought of using cursed Magical Items and Artifacts if it gives them a better plus (after all, when this character dies, what was his name again? They can make up another one that looks just like him to take the dead ones stuff.) They will know everything about every monster that the party encounters, even if the character has never seen it. They will bully or bluff every NPC that they encounter, killing them if that fails. They will insist on playing Chaotic Neutral characters so that they feel that they don’t have to take any responsibility for their actions.
Munchkins will tend to have at least five classes and prestige classes, and be able to function as a one man party. They will rust to the front to push a higher level character out of the way to take their action. They will take other players ideas and claim that they were their own. They will open a door, setting off a trap, and then argue with the DM that they were out in the hall (Even though their mini is in the door.) They will be the first to loot (sometimes even when the fight is still raging around them) and all of their characters will have some type of a thief class (including their Paladins).
Now I know you’re asking; How do I know if I’m a Munchkin? Here are a few simple questions to help you figure it out.
1. If you cover the names on your character sheets of five of your characters, can you tell them apart?
2. Can the person next to you tell your characters apart?
3. Can you name your characters favorite type of weapon without saying ‘ The one with the most pluses”?
4. Is you character a 10th level fighter/ mage/cleric/priest/thief, with eight psionic wild talents?
5. Have you ever tried to run a Were Tarasque half fiend half dragon, rune carved offspring of Bahmut and Asmodeus?
6. Have you ever killed a dragon in one hit?
7. Have you ever killed Tiamat with one hit?
8. Have you ever killed Tiamat with one hit using Stormbringer, because Excalibur and Thor’s hammer were too hard to get out of your Bag of Holding?
9. Have you ever fought a Deity and lived?
10. Have you ever killed a Deity in one hit?
11. Have you ever researched the spell ‘Karsuss’ Folly’?
12. Have you ever thought it would have a hope in hell of working?
These are just a few ways of figuring out if you are a Munchkin. If you are a Roleplayer, and come across one of these foul creatures. Quickly step on it’s head before it can infect any of the other players at the table. The only natural enemy that a Munchkin is that omnipotent god-creature known as the Dungeon Master.
A good Dm knows to spay or neuter their Munchkins. Accidents lead to unwanted people.
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And what, exactly, is the SPIRIT of the game? Answer quickly - this troll bites!Mutual enjoyment of the game.
A munchkin takes advantage of the rules to remove any challenges, sidelining other players (and the DM) in the process. If everyone is enjoying the game, who cares?
Down, troll! :P
If one likes that flavor in the game then so be it. I currently run two campaigns:
1- all D20 allowed: more power to the Munchkins and...2- a strict campaign reminiscent to old d&d...no munchkins allowed. This is due to my strict rule to one class only.
Both ways are great and i would agree with another contributor to this thread that the argument is mute.
Oh, and by the way...great definition of a munchkin. You dont mind if i borrow it?
Thoth-Amon
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I posted this a few months ago, much to Aubrey's anger.
Hate to burst your bubble - I didn't read it then and I haven't read it now. :-P
To be honest, I don't deny that there can be bad behaviour at the gaming table and that it can ruin other people's enjoyment. I just think that, when it is nasty (as opposed to just a question of stylistic differences) then calling it something silly like "munchkin"-ism misses the point a bit.
Someone who wants to beat out their frustrations through a RPG on their fellow players (i.e. trying to "win") has issues that go far beyond the munchkin/power-gamer/roleplayer debate and have much more to do with family issues, relationship problems, work frustrations, personal animosities and maybe even substance abuse. Calling such disruptive behaviour munchkinism and listing a few trivial symptoms misses the point - the root causes are deeper, much more pernicious and quite intractible.
In those situations you have a choice - if you are their friend you try and help them if you can, and/or you stop playing with them for the sake of the other players. I don't think glib trivialisation really advances anything. Which suggests it is not just the munchkins who need to grow up a bit.
If it is just a question of style, a good DM can accommodate both as both players and DM should be willing to make the necessary (and frankly pretty trivial) adjustments. If you are still getting bored players, as I have said before, maybe the DM'ing is at fault. A topic most of the munchkin-labellers seem to avoid - I have seen very little thoughful analysis of themselves by themselves going down on these boards. Very happy to blame the "munchkin" players, though, I notice....
If you are still getting bored players, as I have said before, maybe the DM'ing is at fault. A topic most of the munchkin-labellers seem to avoid - I have seen very little thoughful analysis of themselves by themselves going down on these boards. Very happy to blame the "munchkin" players, though, I notice....
Yup...i tried to give the munchkins a thread to try to find out who considers themself a munchkin, but not many took advantage of that. See: "Are you a munchkin?" Pretty much, these boards are full of GMs that aren't the best folks to be creating and moderating a game for others. I don't think that there are many self-ascribed munchkins out there. There is no subculture of munchkins like there are gamers, gays, aristocrats, etc. Until that happens, the word is pretty meaningless...
The funny thing about words are that their definition is only as static as *meaning* is attributed. Look to see above how many different aspects of personality, behavior, and society are associated with "munchkin" by different folks.
As ever,
ACE
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I tried to give the munchkins a thread to try to find out who considers themself a munchkin, but not many took advantage of that.
Actually I jokingly said I was one - I'm certainly a power-gamer - and got a massive flame attack from one of the anti-munchkin crowd. Which has left me the bitter and twisted advocate of munchkin rights you see on these boards, as that guy's arrogance really irritated me. Yep - it's all personal. :-P