A lot of talk (type?) has ensued on these boards about the possibility of Paizo obtaining the Greyhawk licence if it was offered for tender. Also, there are obviously a lot of fans of Greyhawk that visit these boards and support this possibility. I was wondering if there is any truth to this and if so, what are the barriers?
I was also wondering if fans of the campaign setting could get involved somehow. Perhaps we can lend weight in some areas, be it opinions and suggestions in the right locales/forums or even financially if you are looking for joint investors and there are fans with spare cash.
Any thoughts on this?
A lot of talk (type?) has ensued on these boards about the possibility of Paizo obtaining the Greyhawk licence if it was offered for tender. Also, there are obviously a lot of fans of Greyhawk that visit these boards and support this possibility. I was wondering if there is any truth to this and if so, what are the barriers?
I was also wondering if fans of the campaign setting could get involved somehow. Perhaps we can lend weight in some areas, be it opinions and suggestions in the right locales/forums or even financially if you are looking for joint investors and there are fans with spare cash.
Any thoughts on this?
While I don't have money to "invest" per se, I would purchase every Paizo product I could to help support them generating the cash to buy GH off Wizards and resurrect the setting. I also wouldn't mind a subscription price increase.
I would buy the GH 3.5 hardcover book and make everyone in my gaming group buy their own copy--I'd make my wife buy herself a copy and my sister-in-law--it would be a required purchase just like the PH.
But, I think because of the RPGA and fear of competition, WotC will never do it.
The main obstacle is the Living Greyhawk Campaign. As long as it is running (and I don´t think that it will end anytime soon), WotC won´t publish anything for Greyhawk. They would either have to take everything that happened in the Living Campaign into account, which would be a tremendous (read:costly) task, or they would have to ignore it, and have a LOT of Living Greyhawkers mad at them for not integrating the events into the background. And those LGers probably wouldn´t buy these products.
I don´t think that anything the Greyhawk fans would do or say would change the situation.
A yearly compendium of all LG events would be nice, though...
Stefan
Is there any reason they couldn't compile the events pre-LG for consumption? Though the mind shudders at the monumental task of distilling all those years of history into a single hardbound book, it seems plausible, though certainly not easy.
A yearly release of "What Happened This Year" for Living Greyhawk is a fine idea as well.
Yes, a yearly LG update would be good. DM's could pick and choose what they would incorporate into their own world. I think it would be a great source of ideas, for sure.
I really hope LG or WoTC will do more with Greyhawk. I'd buy a soft or hardcover yearly without hesitation.
Hi All,
I like the idea of a yearly LG update as well. Back in the day I thought that the Poor Wizard’s Almanac was a great resource for the Mystara campaign setting. Those books were fantastic for cherry picking events for the heroes to get involved in depending on where they were adventuring at any given time of year. In addition, the Almanac had the added bonus of supplying background detail to help the world seem alive as I could use the world events to fuel what was happening in the other nations. A LG resource along those lines would be most welcome and one I would definitely pick up.
Good gaming,
Mark
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I think WOTC sees it as a legitemate threat to FR/Eberron sales an thus would never consider selling the license to Paizo.
I also lately, and in general, see the gaming industry in a stagnant slump. They'll have to do something to stoke the flames; definitely more adventures (as seems to be in evidence later on in 2006).
I think they might also think about launching another campaign. Come on, we're getting down to the Postal workers of Eberron and Volo's Guide to sparrows of the Realms. It's only a matter of time.
Wizards believes - based on solid market research - that the Greyhawk setting would fragment their user base and cannibalize sales of existing campaign worlds. They will make intermittent use of the Greyhawk IP but will not release any official campaign or support books. Not until Erik Mona becomes vice-president of Wizards R&D, that is. ;)
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I understand that fragmentation by adding yet another campaign world would undermine existing product sales. But there comes a point, too, where a buyer says, "I don't WANT a sourcebook on sewage drainage systems in the City of Towers. I don't WANT a sourcebook of river deltas-the unique adventure conditions of coastal bayous. Races of Sludge: a complete guide to mongrelmen? What do I want THAT for?"
Then, to ward off stagnation, ought to put out another campaign world. I think that point is maybe 2-3 years away, and the response will take 3-5 years, depending on their perceptiveness.
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Then, to ward off stagnation, ought to put out another campaign world. I think that point is maybe 2-3 years away, and the response will take 3-5 years, depending on their perceptiveness.
I think that was why Ebberon was created ("Bored with the Realms now, I want something more!")
Tragically, they chose Ebberon."Races of Sludge" though... I might buy that. I've always thought Mongrelmen could use some fleshing out.
"Fartsniffing the Ebberon Way", however... I think I'll take a pass on that.
I started writing this post by arguing that there's no way in the Nine Hells that Paizo would buy Greyhawk, but halfway through my post convinced myself otherwise and started again.
Whether or not Wizards will sell it, now, is another matter.
An exclusive sale of the licence is unlikely, if you ask me. While Wizards might not be able to pump Greyhawk for splatbooks - the setting book failed to grab the new wave of third edition DMs, leaving mainly old Greyhawk fans who got their material from Living Greyhawk, the internet and old AD&D books - there's still demand for adventure modules, which is why WotC's setting-generic adventures are typically based in Greyhawk. That appeals to the die-hard Greyhawk DMs clamouring for new content, without explicitly limiting the book to the setting, and I don't think Wizards will give that up unless they're willing to abandon non-Eberron adventure modules entirely.
I'm sure most of us are aware that Wizards has essentially abandoned Greyhawk in favour of Eberron, for the obvious reason that setting-specific books will only sell to people who bought the core setting, thus being less profitable. Few people bought the Greyhawk setting book, and a lot of the setting has already been covered in AD&D books or fan sources. As a result, it's not profitable enough to justify the cost.
Now, here's where Paizo has an opening. They have a good reputation among D&D and Greyhawk fans, especially when it comes to providing adventure modules, which are always popular. They can print new Greyhawk stuff black-and-white to cut costs, and they can attract writers who love the setting and are willing to write for less pay because of that. Paizo isn't quite as concerned about product margins, but it is interested in branching out to add some stability to the company now that they're not part of Wizards.
Of course, that's where the problem lies. What's the first thing Paizo should do? Naturally, reprint a bumper updated Living Greyhawk Gazetteer kitted out for the revised third edition rules, with extra crunch and fluff from the Dungeon adventures it already owns full rights to, and call it the Greyhawk Campaign Setting so that everyone knows what it is. They'll market it as an expansion of the setting implied in the Player's Handbook and thus appeal to everyone. They'll do this because the old Greyhawk book is out of print and the setting is stifled without that gateway.
And of course, Greyhawk will then compete directly with Eberron. Will Wizards want that? I don't think it will. Eberron splatbooks are limited enough as they are, being setting-specific, and with the setting perhaps less popular than they'd hoped, Wizards will not want this competition, and since it won't sell Greyhawk exclusively, I suspect they'll end up holding onto some of the ropes and limiting what Paizo can do with Greyhawk.
In short, if you couldn't read all that - Although Paizo can afford to publish less-profitable Greyhawk material, I doubt Wizards will want to sell Greyhawk to Paizo because it won't take off until they do a re-make of the campaign setting, and then it'll compete with Eberron.
...Whether or not Wizards will sell it, now, is another matter...
I wouldn't if I were them.
Given the assumption they work under (the potential fragmentation of their market), it would be idiotic to license out GH. The much-dreaded market fragmentation would occur, and someone else would be getting the money for it.
That said, WotC's marketing savvy seems to leave something to be desired. IMO, given that they want to keep campaign worlds at a minimum, the definitive fantasy roleplaying game should be sticking with very mainstream fantasy setting. FR is good, but Eberron (as good as it may be) seems to diverge greatly from that. I think (which probably means it's untrue) that Eberron will remain a fringe market in the long run.
We'll see :)
Jack
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Races of Sludge: a complete guide to mongrelmen?
And let's not forget these other future products....
Arcanus Folio - yet another book of optional magic rules.
Complete NPC - new feats, prestige classes and spells for your NPCs.
Races of ? - just a bunch of random "used to be a monster but now its a PC" races. Can you guess what they all have in common.
The Skys of Toril - Behold the hidden Cloud Giant Kingdom! Witness the War of Feather and Beak.
Races of Sludge: a complete guide to mongrelmen?
And let's not forget these other future products....
Arcanus Folio - yet another book of optional magic rules.
Complete NPC - new feats, prestige classes and spells for your NPCs.
Races of ? - just a bunch of random "used to be a monster but now its a PC" races. Can you guess what they all have in common.
The Skys of Toril - Behold the hidden Cloud Giant Kingdom! Witness the War of Feather and Beak.
Keep this up and WotC is going to offer you guys jobs :)
Greyhawk remains in limbo, its liberation in doubt. I now see Greyhawk faithful buying up Eberron books and arguing over the virtues of warforged.
Dark times, indeed.
Here comes a rant about Greyhawk. This issue comes up fairly frequently, and I think many of these people should look into Living Greyhawk with the RPGA.
The campaign is very detailed, with a lot going on. Almost every region releases background material anyone can look at, and with the Gazeeteer and maps from Paizo, you should be pretty much set on GH material. This is free, detailed material on these areas.
I know it appears ot be "in limbo," but I think the many LG players, including myself, feel it is very much alive. I get to experience Greyhawk on a regular basis with the RPGA, and it has never felt so alive, to me. I've had characters face the Scarlet Brotherhood, tromp the streets of the Free City, rescue refugees in Tenh, and face followers of Vecna. The campaign is great, and there is a lto of fun to be had.
So while it may be nice to have a professional company develop the world, I like the fact that gamers have control over the development, and are able to oversee what happens. There is a ground level, hands on experience for the realms right now, and you can be part of it.
Instead of bemoaning the loss of Greyhawk, get your books together and pitch in right now, or just enjoy it. But please don't eulogize it as though there is no support for it. Just because WotC doesn't print hardcover sourcebooks doesn't mean there isn't material for it. Its out there, its free, and you can contribute.
And it is not as though Paizo isn't doing their part. The core faiths, demonicon (which I believe was first outlined on the Greyhawk mailing list) and others still ptich in. Don't mourn the lack of support from WotC. Enjoy the freedom of the setting as it stands.
Perhaps the saddest part of this thread is the mass of people saying "WotC, the maker of horrendous products no one likes, is afraid of Paizo having Greyhawk because they'll show Wizard up. And then they will lose sales." B.S. I don't think that WotC is the evil coropoarte giant everyone is envisioning. They have done some fine work, and they don't put out GH stuff because the Core is fore GH. And the RPGA has "custody" of GH. Everyone thinks Greyhawk is floating in the mire out there, unused and unloved, unsupported. It's alive, my friends.
And I think it is a little ridiculous to point out how bad WotC is but simultanesouly wish they will do something with GH. If they were as horrible as you portray them, they would burn the world to the ground.
I've not had a chance to delve too deeply into all the Greyhawk threads on the boards (there's way too many for that to happen), but I guess I have one concern with the use of GH material in the RPGA.
Short of joining the RPGA, how else would I be able to obtain any GH material?
Quite a bit of LG material is accessible to non-members (like me) online. You can get just about any old modules and box sets online at this site--not so helpful for ready to run adventures, but great for background. Cannonfire has an excellent website with all kinds of fan generated material, including links to Oerth Journal (defunct, I think, but something like 15-20 issues of very good background material, including contributions from many of the bit names (Erik Mona, Roger Moore, etc.). There are many other websites out there, some linked to cannonfire--like Denis Tetreault's "Melkot" site.
So, there's no nice neat packages like you can get for FR from WotC, but there's an incredible amount of stuff you can get access to with a computer, access to the web, and a very modest expenditure.
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I really like this guy's site that I found googling Iggwilv: http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/gordmain.html
It's got a lot of background taken from Gary Gygax's Gord books. He says it isn't exactly 'Canon', but it's based on novels that Gary Gygax wrote, so for me it's yet another one of those contradictions in life I am so fond of.
I now see Greyhawk faithful buying up Eberron books and arguing over the virtues of warforged.Three words, my friend...
Not bloody likely!
I would rather starve on air than dine on ashes.
Ditto baby.
I understand the fragmentation theory (and it's valid if a company peppers the public with the number of settings released in the 2nd Edition days), but Eberron and Greyhawk and so different (and seem to target such different audiences) that the idea of one being competition for the other seems laughable to me.
The lack of GH material hasn't inspired me to purchase any Eberron books (or FR for that matter) -- I simply don't buy anything. Likewise, if someone enjoys the unique/offbeat nature of Eberron I doubt the release of a few Greyhawk books will cause them to abandon the line. A supermarket doesn't worry that selling bananas will hurt the apple sales, the offer a range of product in the hope to sell fruit, period. (I realize it's more complicated than that, but you get my main point.)
In the case of Greyhawk, there's obviously a good number of people desiring product, and to not market to them seems foolish.
I really like this guy's site...
Yes, good site!
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I now see Greyhawk faithful buying up Eberron books and arguing over the virtues of warforged.Three words, my friend...
Not bloody likely!
I would rather starve on air than dine on ashes.
I quit using my Automated character sheet because the update that they made tags it with the Eberon logo and I refuse to support anything with Eberonn on it! I refuse to even spell it correctly and I can be a teeny-bit, slighty anal when it comes to spelling certain things;)
Screw Eboron, that steampunk wanna-be setting....*stalks off to revive the rant thread*
FH
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Screw Eboron, that steampunk wanna-be setting....*stalks off to revive the rant thread*
FH
You know, I don't really take issue with Eberron that much. What I have noticed (and this amuses me, to say the least), is the number of similarities between Eberron (which came out in 2004) and the "Iron Kingdoms" setting by Privateer Press (which was released in 2002 as a softcover and re-released as a hardcover in 2004). Now, I know they're both "Steam Punk" and that there are destined to be a 'few' cross-overs ...but when I read Eberron, I think:
"Wow ...this sounds like the IK"
...and its that feeling I get, over and over. But, it's not a big deal. I believe they say something about imitation being the highest form of flattery.
:)
~Jaye
PS ...If you think mixing steam punk, Greyhawk, and Risk might make for a cool setting, check out Privateer Press!
http://privateerpress.com/ironkingdoms/default.php (the company site)
http://www.buccaneerbass.com/rls/html/homenews/index.shtml (the us fan site)
I understand that fragmentation by adding yet another campaign world would undermine existing product sales. But there comes a point, too, where a buyer says, "I don't WANT a sourcebook on sewage drainage systems in the City of Towers. I don't WANT a sourcebook of river deltas-the unique adventure conditions of coastal bayous. Races of Sludge: a complete guide to mongrelmen? What do I want THAT for?"
Then, to ward off stagnation, ought to put out another campaign world. I think that point is maybe 2-3 years away, and the response will take 3-5 years, depending on their perceptiveness.
Greyhawk has a far longer history of publication than Eberron. It's been published longer than Forgotten Realms, although materials produced might be close now. Greyhawk is far close to "sewage drainage systems of Greyhawk" than Eberron is (many would argue the Forgotten Realms has hit that point, with Ed Greenwood's article on roofing in the Realms).
Yes, they might reach the point where they decide to put out another campaign world because this issue. It won't be Greyhawk, because that run counter to the philosophy of having room to publish things that haven't been done and overdone.
That doesn't mean that WotC won't release Greyhawk product in the future (although I don't see it anytime soon), but it certainly won't be for that reason.
Many thoughtful posts here.
Greyhawk is far close to "sewage drainage systems of Greyhawk" than Eberron is (many would argue the Forgotten Realms has hit that point, with Ed Greenwood's article on roofing in the Realms).
Greyhawk has certainly been in print the longest (but, as you say, FR is gaining) but the setting is far from overdone. Huge areas, such as the Sea of Dust, not to mention the rest of the continent and world(!), remain untapped. (If you go farther and exclude the post-Greyhawk Wars Carl Sargent material, which some GH purists do, some countries in Greyhawk have been defined in little more than a few paragraphs of official material.) The fact that many people claim to enjoy its "greyness" and ability to be adjusted to fit home campaigns is evidence of this as well. Ultimately the fans of Greyhawk are best to judge whether the setting is overdone (and this goes of course for FR and Eberron).
I know a few people who might grumble about decisions for areas of the setting they worked on extensively and have grown to love. On the other hand, those few are less than 1% -- the rest would celebrate and jump at the chance to purchase a new "official" Greyhawk product, whether published by WotC, Paizo, or any other company. LG players would be the most enthusiastic, supportive, and numerous audience.
Agreed. The folks that have developed areas for their campaigns can ignore future published books (or sections therein). As I recall, sections of the Forgotten Realms -- including the entire nation of Sembia! -- were originally intended to be left forever undefined so DMs had some sway, and yet eventually these areas were defined in whole or part. I don't recall the FR fans taking much umbrage at this.