I don't have anything against the Eberron setting, per se, but I find that everything Eberron was supposed to have 'added' to the game I already create in my own campaign set in FR. The "cinematic" nature people describe Eberron to contribute, the "pulp" flavor... all these things are added by a good DM.
Here! Here!
You summed up my feelings very well. One thing I didn't like is the presentation of the books. Urgh! The pages look blank (but not in a cool 'stark' kinda way like Arcana Unearthed) and there are comics everywhere! WTF! I like comics (Batman, Hulk etc.) and read them regularly but it makes the setting look childish. I get this 'trying too hard to be cool post-matrix anime saturation' feeling when I flip through Eberon books.
That said, the Races of, and Explorer's Handbook were enjoyable and well written.
Peace,
tfad
I think that comparing Eberron and Greyhawk is like comparing pasta to curry. They're both good but different, everyone has their own opinion on which is better, and some people don't like one or the other.
Greyhawk appeals to long-time players of earlier editions and new players of traditional-style adventures. These are the kinds of people who might tell you that Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil was the best campaign ever.
Eberron appeals more to the "modern" roleplayer, for whom roleplaying and intrigue are more important than killing monsters for their treasure. Eberron is, in part, an attempt to expand D&D to accomodate and encourage this kind of game.
Now, that's not to say you can't run intrigue in Greyhawk or dungeon crawling in Eberron, but it's what the setting is geared towards. Hence, some people will find Greyhawk dull and old-fashioned when all they want is a little more plotting and mystery, while some will play Eberron and try to hijack an airship to visit Droaam for some loot and XP.
I don't have anything against the Eberron setting, per se, but I find that everything Eberron was supposed to have 'added' to the game I already create in my own campaign set in FR.
I'm kind of in this camp as well though to say I added everything would be a stretch - but I feel I've got a better execution on the things I like, communications, transportation, commerce, institutions, religions, item creation.
I think that a lot of the animosity over Eberron stems from the fact that many players feel that Eberron is killing Greyhawk. WotC isn’t producing new Greyhawk sourcebooks and they feel that they have been abandoned.
Thats not really it for me, it more a deep disappointment.
Greyhawk is fine FR is fine - they are both close to what I want my games to be to useful and to build off of.What I wanted from Eberron was a world along those lines better than what I create - one with the ramifications of magic (though much rarer magic) woven through the society. Fortifications that are effective versus the PCs, some real incredible results from collaborative spell casting, an outline for spell effects when the caster takes more than 6 seconds to cast a spell, a role for schools and training to provide bonuses, well I could go on.
It is basically a steampunk setting, not a fantasy setting.
I think Verminlord hit it right on the head. What I want a world better thought through fantasy world, better balanced, with cultures, and a history inspired by the history of the world we live in.
One of the things I love about the game is the directions it led me into - now granted when I first started playing, I was MUCH younger. Now I want a more sophisticated world, with layers, and logic. But the many, of the monsters and magic in the original game were drawn from myth, history, folklore, novels - cobbled togetther in kind of nonsensical way - but connected to the world, and inspired me to learn about different things. Eberron is anime and the new stuff seems to me to be foundationless. There is so much history and lore - stuff from real cultures, with depth an context to be explored, so many ways to take classic fantasy to a new level to do a magic steampunk anime thing seems weak.
But I may not be the target audience for the world, not all products are or should be written to my tastes.
The reason I am down on Eberron is not because I think its lame - clearly there are people who like it and thats great. What I don't like is as long as its around the better gaming world I want won't get written - and I think at the end of the day that is why so many other GH and FR fans are frustrated as well.
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That is exactly the reason that I dislike the setting, Kyr. You hit it right on the head. I feel that until it is gone their will be no other good worlds written up by WotC, whether it be Greyhawk, Darksun, Spelljammer, Planescape, whatever. There are alot of setting that are great that could've been rewritten to cater to the younger/newer set that are collecting dust so that this steampunk/anime setting could be created. Oh well.
FH
I do not like Eberron. But then again I'm not all uber fond of Faerun. Or any campaign setting for that matter.
Not to say that I don't steal lot's of good ideas and plots, I do all the time. But my roleplaying experiance comes from looking through the 3 core rule books and making a world.
That said there are things I do not like in a campaign setting.
Diluted monsters. Constructs are one of my favorite classes of monsters. Their creation, their abilities, all fascinating to me. Dopplegangers are perfect in any espionage situation, love the deceit. And I feel no great love for lycanthropes but I respect them as clasic monsters none the less. Whenever I look at the warforged and the shifters and changlings I can't help but cringe. I have read the histories of how these "races" came about and I'm far from impressed so far. It seems like some one just flipped through the MM, pulled out the coolest monsters, and then beat all of the speacialness out of them until they were weak enough to be a PC race. That annoys me. Now an iron golem isn't all that great because half of you're party might be mini-versions of it. Thats all just opinions though.
The high magic? Fine I don't really care. Although actual CARS? That irritated me a little. Personal preference though, there is nothing to back it up and I realise that.
Dragons. Dragons, dragons, dragons. I do not like what Eberron did to them. They are rare, powerful, and frightening. But the campaign uses them as a prefix to anything cool. That and the WORLD is actually a dragon? Doesn't sit right with me. Not sure how to explain it other than if you use something mysterious and powerful too much it loses the mysteriousness and power that made it such a great thing in the first place. Much like swearing. If someone you known for a couple of decades never said an obsenitiy you would probably freak out if they got ticked off and started dropping F bombs. Thats what I like to see happen when the group comes across an iron golem or a dragon. Ebberon feels like that loudmouthed cousin that uses explitives between every word he says. He uses the most powerful words at his disposal constantly so it's hard to judge when he actually feels strongly about something, everything he says is diluted and weak by comparison.
That been said I agree that dragons are powerful enough to make such an impact on the world. I don't see all the dragon parafinalia as a bad thing. I just isn't for my tastes.
There are tings I don't like about Eberron, there are things I don't like about Faerun, There are probably things I wouldn't like about Greyhawk had I any severe exposiure to it. They all have thier ups and downs but with what I have seen Eberron has more downs. It just isn't for me.
Just so I have all my facts right. How did the Shifters come about? All I can recall is that lycanthropes bred with humanoids until their heritage and power were weakened. If this is true, how do you get a half lycanthrope? If a bite is enough to transfer the curse I don't understand why intercourse with a lycanthrope wouldn't as well.
However, nothing in D&D would make me happier than an expensive $60 600 page HC GH update....I'd preorder that SOB and anything else GH as fast as I could type in my credit card number.Word!
Er, umm...
Seconded!
Yo! Um...me too!
I don't hate Ebberron because its new, really. I liked Forgotten Realsm when it was new; I liked Dark Sun a lot, not only because it was new, but because it was something very different. Basically, my problem with Ebberon is that it is so bland; stuff many of us oldtime gamers been doing for a long time. I will grant you that I certainly do not know it as well as Greyhawk; or FR, or DS, or many others; heck, I use Judges Guild Maps myself - I am just saying it is not very inivative or dynamic. Sure, it is a good enough world for people just starting out who want a campaign world; but many of these other are better. I would have expected this to be a third generation setting with cooler stuff; that is really all I am saying, I am frankly not impressed. I think it was Grimcleaver a few posts back that suggested other realms like Jurassic park themes and stuff; that would have been really cool - something like the Torg games "living land". This would have been inivative and new. I guess my bitterness toward Eberon stems from my dissappointment about what it could have been. Nothing I have read, seen, or borrowed even remotely suggests that this is must have material the the forementioned campaign settings. I am really kind of wondering what people who have been playing this game for 10+ years like myself at 25+ years and my gaming group (everyone about my age and gaming experience)think of Eberron. To me it is basically a starter campaign world, but adds nothing for people who already own 3 or 4 or more worlds already.
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I have seen a number of posts that suggest that people were really looking forward to something different with Eberron and were disappointed that it wasn't Greyhawk. I am not entirely certain what people were looking for in Eberron.
There have also been a number of people who have said that WotC (or TSR at the time) came out with great new settings like Dark Sun and Spelljammers. When Spelljammers first came out, I thought "what a stupid concept -- if I wanted to play D&D in space, I would play Star Wars". Besides, why is D&D in space any better than D&D "robots" as some people have called the warforged? And why are canibal halflings better than dinosaur halflings? Both are fairly humorous if you think about it.
I have also seen a number of posts that suggest that Eberron is "bad" because it is not fully thought out or developed. What were people expecting? Was Forgotten Realms fully developed at it's inception? Was Greyhawk?
I am tired of all the Eberron bashing that is out there. Especially when the reason that Eberron is bad is because Greyhawk is better. What does that mean? That isn't a reason -- it is an opinion.
Here is my opinion --
I think that Eberron is really good. We have been playing in Forgotten Realms for a long time and I simply believe that the Forgotten Realms are just too big. There was almost too much to keep track of -- 87 different gods, 25 different contries on the same continent, 250 prestige classes, 92 different dialects, etc. Truthfully, these things never came into play, we just worked in one area at a time. But I have enjoyed taking a step back and starting small again.
I like that magic is a large part of the world, but very few people are over 10th level and almost no one is over 15th level. I like the artificer class (and it is about time that they created it). It gives a reason for the gluttony of magic items.
As far as the new races, no -- very few (none) of the races are "new" concepts. And what they are called or what their "origins" are is irrelevant. Feral humans, Shifty humans, and sentient constructs are nothing new. WotC just gave them stats.
I love the Kalashtar and the Inspired concepts.
I love the fact that there are a good number of different "focuses" that players could go on that don't have to interfere with each other.
I love the "dark continent". Again, not a new concept, just well thought out.
I also love that WotC ISN'T developing some things. The dragon marks' origins. The draconic prophecy. The true origin of the warforged and why there are magic items that are older than all the warforged that ONLY work on warforged.
I like the concept of the dragonshards. It is unnecessary, but interesting.
With all that being said, I am sad that WotC isn't developing Greyhawk more. I can't help but wonder if there is something more political going on that no one really knows about because it (obviously) would only make WotC money.
Just my random thoughts.
Bill
In Eberron people are civilized, more or less. It is basically a steampunk setting, not a fantasy setting.
More civilized, yes. That's one of the focuses of Eberron, that it's distinctly more modern, more civilized. Take your standard D&D world but advance it a century or few. It's better for the roleplaying and intrigue style of gaming, but I'd imagine Wizards don't want to settle on that since they won't want to exclude the dungeon-crawl fans.
Steampunk, it's not. Steampunk is science fiction set in the past, while Eberron is a fantasy world where they just happened to invent the train. The lightning rail is a statistical aberration. While there is such a thing as fantasy steampunk, this usually focuses on magic coexisting with technology, not magic used as technology.
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I think that a lot of the animosity over Eberron stems from the fact that many players feel that Eberron is killing Greyhawk. WotC isn’t producing new Greyhawk sourcebooks and they feel that they have been abandoned. I’m not sure that this is really the case. When Greyhawk was at its peak TSR didn’t produce sourcebooks hand over fist for Greyhawk—they made adventure modules.
In my opinion Greyhawk is better for not having dozens of new sourcebooks every year. Part of what makes Greyhawk a great setting is that so much of it is a blank canvas (as F2K pointed out he has volume of personally designed NPCs and other materials gather from 26 years of gaming in Greyhawk thats part of Greyhawk's charm).
As I wrote in my previous post, I have no animosity for Eberron--it just isn't my choice of campaign settings.
And you do make a good point about the fact that TSR simply put out a great deal of adventures during the Greyhawk years, and not so many sourcebooks. I would argue that this is precisely what makes Greyhawk great! I don't need three thousand pages of history of the world to spur on my imagination. Vault of the Drow did it in 32 pages, and it is obvious that I am not the only person that this classic adventure touched. If it weren't for this adventure, there would have most likely never been a Drizzt Do'Urden, and the Forgotten Realms would have been denied their flagship novel line. While most other campaign settings have sourcebook after sourcebook of information, Greyhawk was the setting of amazing adventures. What I like best about Greyhawk is that it is the background for the adventure, not the other way around.
If Eberron is to your liking, play it in good health and go in peace. All I ask is that WOTC not throw away Greyhawk entirely. There is no reason why they can't put out a good Greyhawk sourcebook once every 3-4 years and a few good Greyhawk adventures per year. I also feel that it does them no good to try and erase characters like Tenser (Manzorian? Give me a break.) from the pages of Dungeon magazine.
I simply don't feel that it is too much to ask for WOTC to throw a little support towards the campaign world that defined what all of Dungeons and Dragons is about. As I said before, if I had to choose one setting over all the others, MAKE MINE GREYHAWK!!!!
Steampunk, it's not.
You are right. It was just what came into my mind to show the difference. More correct would be to say Eberron has made the jump from the middle ages to the renaissance. One thing that struck me first was the income of the working class, which was nearly the tenfold of the classical D&D. And there is a established industrial society, with a middle class (bourgeoisie). This changes a lot, mostly the approach to roleplay instead of roll-play.
In my opinion ToEE and RtToEE (and other of the first generation adventures) are the worst kind of adventure out there. Room, Monster, Treasure, repeat endlessly... Even Monopoly is more interesting. So I'm glad that the classic dungeon crawl is dying and that WotC goes to new frontiers.
WotC (Hasbro) are only interested in profit, after all this is the reason why it is a company and not an org. So a 'new' setting (like Eberron) has to be for the 'broad' clientel. And this means Anime, Harry Potter, 'Matrix'-Action and common elements like Elves, Dwarves etc.
I was more disapointed to find the 'old' races in Eberron, then to find the 'Mecha' (Warforged). To be true, the next time, I see Drow in a Setting I'm going to puke.
No offense meant for all the fans of this genre. There is enough material out there for us all (like the Classic Dungeon Crawl line or Hack Master).
I gotta say this at least once:
Before Eberron came out, I had my homebrew, and was working on some finishing details.
I had a large kingdom made of a few independant nations... named Galefar.
I had a work-in-progress inventor style class.
I had a large guild called the Silver Flame (granted, it was a thieves' guild...)
I had huge overarching draconic influences.
I had a dark jungle with aztec-style ruins - left by giants.
I had a nation destroyed by an unknown power and left in utter ruins.
I had a history that included an invasion by cthuloid entities from an aberrant realm.
I had elemental landcarts.
I had a nation run by a vampire (and another run by a lich).
I had an island system complete with a whole lotta pirates that ran the show out there.
I had magical shards that fell from the sky.
Sigh... If only I'd actually sent it in... then people would be debating over whether MY setting was just made to make a company money or not...
And I swear, honest to Pelor, the above is ALL true. I have the reams and reams of graph paper and NPC writeups to back me up.
However, nothing in D&D would make me happier than an expensive $60 600 page HC GH update....I'd preorder that SOB and anything else GH as fast as I could type in my credit card number.
Fourthed!
However, nothing in D&D would make me happier than an expensive $60 600 page HC GH update....I'd preorder that SOB and anything else GH as fast as I could type in my credit card number.Fourthed!
I know this is coming out of left field here, but I have a few hard questions about Greyhawk "support" that I would like answered before I say yes to potential products like this.
Let's say anyone on these boards were in charge of a line of Greyhawk products to be released over the fiscal year 2007. We're talking about 6-8 192 page hardcovers, and maybe half a dozen 32 page adventures. Something like that.
What would you do?
For me, I would be interested in purchasing Grehawk products if (and only if):
- It's NOT full of, or expanding on, the same fluff you can already find in the Gazateer, online resources, previous modules and hardcovers, or anything else ALREADY done in the last 30 years.
- It's NOT full of stat blocks of famous people from Greyhawk. . . especially the circle of eight and any other cute Gygax anagrams.
- It's NOT a series of hardcovers divided by region, or a book on Greyhawk City. This is a dull concept that's been sucking the life out of the Realms for the last two years.
- It's NOT a series of modules rehashing the same old organizations, such as the Scarlet Brotherhood, Iuz, or any of the old conspiracies, slavers, wars, drow vaults, one-handed liches, and anything else we have already seen.
So what's left for you to do? I'll tell you what I'd want to see:
I want new material. I want new character options, new magic, new organizations, new timelines, new history, a comprehensive write-up of areas OUTSIDE of the Flaness, and overall. . . something I haven't already seen. Furthermore, this all needs to have enough flavor (when I say "flavor," I don't mean name dropping), that unquestioningly distiguishes Greyhawk from generic D&D. Otherwise, any new Greyhawk products that you come up with will be nothing more than a bunch of cash-grabbing hackery that I won't purchase.
Simply put, I'm not into nostaligia and I could care less about fan service. I know that's a strange attitude for a 31 year old gamer who's been paying D&D since he was 9, but it's certainly not a strange attitude for the next generation of gamers who could care less about Tensor or the next 35 levels of dungeons under Maure castle. It might sell big for Dungeon magazine once in a while, but there are plenty of people like me that will slowly fade away if the magazine, or WOTC, became "all Greyhawk."
So with all that said, what do you want a line of Greyhawk products to look like? What material should be in them? How is that material fresh? Most importantly - How does your Greyahwk material increase the quality of my game?
Who knows. . . maybe if we came up with enough NEW concepts on these boards, WOTC or Paizo would see some new potential in the setting. Good luck with that.
On a side note, you might say this post is "trolling" a bit, just to see if we've thought about what we actually want to see when we say "more Greyhawk support." I just don't think we can be upset because a business fails to "be creative" on demand, especially if the well's run dry on fresh ideas. If it can't be done, it can't be done.
Those are my thoughts.
- Chris the Troll
Chris,
You make a good point, but I would still buy it. Right now all the material we have for GH is fluff. The Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting that came out a few years ago is a very nice book, in my opinion and I'd love to see GH get that same attention from someone who cares a great deal about the setting, such as Erik and staff. In this GH hardback I'd like to see regional feats, GH specific prestige classes (Scarlet Brotherhood Monk, etc), the paladins of GH that came out a few years ago in Polyhedron, GH specific spells, more detail on the Gods, maps of all the major cities, more detail on the culture and everyday life in various regions, etc. I would also want all the GH material from Dungeon to be put into this hardcover--Hardby, Istivin, etc. so I don't have to try to remember which issue had GH content and keep them around. I could just carry this hardcover to my games.
Basically if all the fluff got pulled together, updated for 3.5 and given a full work up where each country gets a few pages and each region its own chapter, it would be great. Sure, with enough work and research on canonfire and other sources I could probably pull most of that stuff together myself, but I don't have the time or the inclination. I'd love an innovative update with great new ideas, but if the HC only compiles already existing stuff, updates it for 3.5, I'd also be very happy because I'm lazy.
But, it isn't going to happen, so I will continue to plod along with the barebones outline that GH is now, happy and content to make stuff up as I go along. Maybe not having a HC isn't such a bad thing, but it sure would be nice.
Best analogy? I've seen Rush in concert about twenty times. For their last concert tour they had no new material, only a cover album of 60's songs they liked. Not only did I fly out of town to see them, I also bought the DVD of the tour. Not cause it was new, because it was familiar and awesome. Nostalgia sells big time.
Director of Narrative
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I would also want all the GH material from Dungeon to be put into this hardcover--Hardby, Istivin, etc. so I don't have to try to remember which issue had GH content and keep them around. I could just carry this hardcover to my games.
Basically if all the fluff got pulled together, updated for 3.5 and given a full work up where each country gets a few pages and each region its own chapter, it would be great. Sure, with enough work and research on canonfire and other sources I could probably pull most of that stuff together myself, but I don't have the time or the inclination. I'd love an innovative update with great new ideas, but if the HC only compiles already existing stuff, updates it for 3.5, I'd also be very happy because I'm lazy.
A DM I played with a few years ago printed up alot (if not most) of the greyhawk material online then and printed it up an put it into three 2" 3-ring binders. Those were great. It was almost exactly what we've been describing. I ended up with one of the binders (hee hee) and have since tried to fill it out more, but I can't keep spending that much on ink for things that may or may not be 'cannon'.
But yes, we are asking for an update to the existing 'fluff' in one single book so I don't slip a disc everytime I load the car to go to a game. I don't think that's much to ask.
Wow I started a heated debate!
Wow I started a heated debate!
Yep, that GH vs. Eberron vs. FR stuff gets us going every time!
I think the statement that the different styles of adventures are likely to go down different paths (dungeon crawl to FR, intrigue to Eberron, etc.) is interesting, and also goes along well with what other people said, that each world has something that the other doesn't.
When I was still running games in my homebrew (I will return to you one day, my creation...), I kept redesigning the map and the cultures because I wanted THIS type of culture here, interacting with THAT type of culture over there, with THE OTHER just over the next mountain, etc. etc.
By having the three different worlds, GH, FR, and Eberron, you give yourself a huge amount of freedom. Say you want a campaign of massive, monolithic powers rising up and goign to war, but don't necessarily want to deal with the ramifications in GH or FR. Enter Eberron with a resurgence of the last war. Lots of superweapons, battle scenes, etc. It's expected of the setting.
Now, say you want an Arabic campaign against an evil order of wizards. Enter FR with Calimshan and the Twisted Rune. Now you want to run a gritty, medieval game set in the wooded, frozen north with barbarians and Norse-like monsters. Enter Greyhawk.
Now, could you do all of those ideas in one setting? Yes, witha little work. But the thing is, sometimes the setting just doesn't support the atmosphere of the game you'd like to run without tweaking that you don't necessarily want to put into that setting. Having so much room to move around in, between three very complete, separate worlds, is a great asset to the DM, and allows for experimentation with many styles with a minimum of effort of tweaking your setting, which is nice if you don't want to change the whole world around yet.
Now, before anyone comes back and says they ran intrigue in GH, let me say, "Yes, I said you can. But Eberron is set up for it, so you don't necessarily have to tweak as much or develop as much on your own, which should be agood thing since you complain about not having enough time."
Oh, and for the record, using what little knowledge I have, if there's any one setting that my homebrew resembled more than any other in my overall concept and mind, it would have probably been Greyhawk. So, that tells you where my true disre for fantasy really lies.
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However, nothing in D&D would make me happier than an expensive $60 600 page HC GH update....I'd preorder that SOB and anything else GH as fast as I could type in my credit card number.
Make that five! I don't think the "powers that be" would let Greyhawk products fall in to the hands of bad writers. The logical choice would be the paizo staff and I can only wish for a Greyhawk HC penned by Monahawk. I have been finding more information online about the setting, but for an old gamer that hasn't followed the history for the last 20 years it can be hard to put all the pieces together. I have to admit that it has been a lot of fun trying though!
I agree that each campaign setting is different and unique (if only in "flavor") and that each one has its supporters and detractors. I happen to prefer Greyhawk myself probably for the same reasons others call it bland and uninspired. I'm sorta ambivilant about Forgotten Realms, all that detail makes it seem overwhelming and bulky to me. Eberron doesn't appeal to me at all in its general style and flow, but I do understand and appreciate its place among "modern" gamers. I think its wrong for people to just shamelessly bash any other setting than their personal favorite. "Can't we all just get along?"
I don't fault WotC for introducing Eberron nor keeping it around forever if they so desire. I do get somewhat annoyed and admittedly jealous that they lavish their attention on Eberron to the exclusion of Greyhawk. Strictly from a marketing perspective it baffles me that WotC is so stubborn about producing suppliments for Greyhawk regardless of their personal preferences. That is just plain stupid, IMO. Better to make money on a setting you hate than make none on a setting you love, isn't it (at least from a business perspective)?
I don't agree on the restrictions for a GH hardcover. I agree that even a compilation of old material would be helpful, pulling details together from a thousand current sources for those of us unwilling or unable to do so for ourselves. Frankly, I wouldn't *want* WotC to produce a GH adventure module. I wouldn't trust them to do it at the level of quality and care already provided by Paizo. But a source book is another story - even if it was just a regional thing. And if WotC is too stubborn and short-sighted to do it, then respect the fans enough to license the material to someone else (like Paizo) who would.
Just my two coppers.
WOW.
What a topic.
I first came upon this thread at work and I have been sitting here trying to come up with something to add, but much like with the demise of greyhawk thread(HAIL LILITH!), I think it's more or less all been summed up. Still, my personal opinion is as follows: Eberron is a great campaign setting. Love it or hate it, you can still find things in there to use, and the very fact that some people can say that Eberron came out with ideas they have been using for YEARS(I've certainly been there before though, and it does sting a bit) in their own homebrews only reinforces the setting's utility and worth. There shouldn't be any real conflict between Eberron and GH, FR, or any other campaign setting. Each of them are realized enough to stand up on their own and attract their own fan base. GH and Eberron and FR and DL and SJ and RL and DS fans don't necessarily have to play well together- they have to play the games they like and support the hobby in general. That said, Eberron dying will NOT bring back GH or any other campaign setting- but neither does it's birth or the creation of any other campaign setting mean that older, more established worlds(with older, more established DMs and players) should fade into the ether(which is why I support the GLF). And bring back Spelljammer! I LOVED the Shadow of the Spider Moon supplement- imagine the current Age of Worms with Pyrespace as a backdrop! But that is a tale for another thread...
Another thing that mystifies me- hatred(or dislike) of Eberron and anime in the same breath. Why? Not to "call" anyone out, but I'm confused. I love both Eberron and anime, but they call out to different sides of me, and as much as I love Record of Lodoss War and Genesis Survivor Gairaith(warforged, anyone?), very rarely do my anime and rpg twain meet. Maybe I'm the exception, but if I ever find myself itching to play an anime character, I'll pick up BESM, not D&D...
Another thing that mystifies me- hatred(or dislike) of Eberron and anime in the same breath. Why? Not to "call" anyone out, but I'm confused. I love both Eberron and anime, but they call out to different sides of me, and as much as I love Record of Lodoss War and Genesis Survivor Gairaith(warforged, anyone?), very rarely do my anime and rpg twain meet. Maybe I'm the exception, but if I ever find myself itching to play an anime character, I'll pick up BESM, not D&D...
I would recommend BESM D20, but that's another thread. Anime and Manga is 'in' and everyone tries to jump on the train (just take a look on WW Exalted). The only thing about Eberron that is Anime are the comics on the begin of the chapter, but even these are not manga in the classical sense. I think at moment it everything is lumped together.
D&D is--or was prior to D20, anyway--about telling a story, not how powerful you can get in the shortest amount of time. .
That's laughable, D&D as option for Storytelling and not upleveling. All those nice computergames had the whole idea for upleveling and powerplay from D&D. I didn't touch AD&D for more then 10 years, because characterplay was the least of all option supported by the rules. If you take a look at the players handbook it is still the smallest part of the rules.
Of course you can make an all storytelling D&D, but you can also drive a porsche at 15mph. It makes no sense. Don't get me wrong, I play D&D and mastered dozens different rpg's and I like D&D, but if you talk about the roleplay in D&D, I remember dozens of (classic) adventures where the only reason why characters should enter the dungeon is upleveling for the next dungeon level.Eberron has some fine options for roleplay, because you don't need every XP from the Orc at the 10x10ft room, you already can change something from the start.
Something I keep reading in people's reposnses are that they acknowledge Eberron as not being true to the expected D&D campaign setting. If that's the case I then ask you: Why does it bare the D&D name? I have no answer for my own question; but I can express my own views as to why it should not bare the D&D name to it.
It includes dungeons, it includes dragons. It includes any element from the core rule books that the DM wants. It involves sitting around a table with character sheets, dice, and too much soda. How much more D&D can you get?
First, you have a timeline that stretches to somewhere around 15-17,000 years and the world is still medieval predominantly.First off, the timeline goes all the way back to "???". Secondly, the recorded human civilization in that time period only goes back 3,000 years so far as per the books, and in that time humans have dominated 2 continents, and reached an age that more closely resembles the renaissance than the medieval age. Lastly, consider that it took humans on this world (the real world) well over 15,000 years to reach the "medieval age." The oldest recorded findings of human civilization date back about 15,000 years, iirc.
Okay, account for the fact that some civilizations will develop slower than others; but with magic in such readily available supply and being used in everyday practices as it is one would think that this world should have PCs and an internet at the very leasty by now. I mean how do you honestly expect an intelligent consumer to read about how there is essentially an electrical metrorail crisscorssing the continent as well as entire cities that move mechanically yet there aren't even revolvers much less "lightening pistols" invented yet?There are no computers or internet, because Eberron has developed through magic rather than science. The gnomes who bear the mark of house Sivis can transport messages between cities, while the dwarves of house Kundarak can store your wealth in extradimensional pockets. Also, there are no cities which move mechanically. There is a "city" (more of a fort) that floats, but that is due to magic (elemental binding) rather than mechanics or electronics. Eberron is not steampunk, nor is it Shadowrun. And as for "lightning pistols," ever heard of a wand of magic missile? Or a +1 shock hand crossbow?
I'm sorry but D&D has through the years always represented a pseudo-medieval continent/world with attention to a certain amount of believability along those lines. The exceptions I will offer for you have been mentioned a couple times: Dark Sun and Planescape. These two however aren't around anymore as official products due to the fact that though they may very well have their loyalist fans they were never popular with a wide audience. I would predict the same fate for Eberron, but unfortunately the next reason it shouldn't be labeled D&D is why it probably will survive.Dark Sun enjoyed a long and respectable run in second edition. It was dropped for 3rd because the publishers wanted to focus one one to two settings rather than have to deal with making products for the (by that time) 15+ different campaign settings. Birthright, a "psuedo medieval" campaign, was dropped, as was Dragonlance. Mystara was the default campaign for the pre-advanced line of D&D, and was then dropped. If WotC started producing (good) books for Dark Sun, dollars to doughnuts they'd be selling like hotcakes.
Second reason: power players' heaven. Constructs and barely toned down lycanthropes and dopplegangers as playable races, a class that makes magic items and adventure/hero points (the true name slips me at the moment). Come on; play an orignal race and class and just roll the d20. Why are all these uber "options" available? I give you the answer with no malice, just observation from a gamer veteran of more than 20 years. Because the gamers entering into the hobby today were weened on video games that gave immediate gratification and were all about gaining levels--not about telling a story.
Constructs - with several restrictions. Sure, they don't need to breath - but they have a heck of a hard time healing, and just breath the words, "rust monster"... Barely toned down lycanthropes? You haven't really looked at them, have you? No racial HD, nearly the same stat modifications as a half-orc, an ability similar to but much less powerful than rage (yes, you can increase the effectiveness of it - but that requires a lot of feats that could better be used on other things). And as for the "doppelgangers," all they get is a bonus on disguise checks, and the type of skill mods and saving throw mods that all the other base races get. Besides that, I'll bet that at least half the homebrew campaigns out there include some sort of changeling-type race. It's not a new concept. It's just been given stats.
As for the class that can make magic items... Well, yeah! Why not? It's a classic cliche... the kooky inventor. It gives a reason as to why there are so many magical items in the world.
Action points... they lend the cinematic aspect to the game. Think of movies like Raiders of the Lost Ark, The Mummy, and The Temple of Doom. Action points allow characters to have that one last bolt, or catch themselves when falling off of a cliff it seemed impossible... As a DM, I love action points because it helps me to justify having the characters start at a more reasonable point-buy. Instead of having characters who are stronger, faster, tougher, smarter, wiser, and more charismatic than any other NPC out there at level 1, you've got characters who aren't - and yet still survive. Sounds heroic to me.
Newer gamers more interested in stats than story? Gimme a break! D&D, from its roots, has been about clearing the dungeon, getting the loot, and going up a level (while going down a level... Ah, Rich Burlew). I know older gamers who care nothing for in-depth story, and I know newer gamers who will come to game with 10 pages of detailed, interesting backstory. Age is moot.
And that right there is the core of my beef with Eberron. Certainly it has its interesting elements much like Dark Sun and Planescape did, but they are few and far between. D&D is--or was prior to D20, anyway--about telling a story, not how powerful you can get in the shortest amount of time. I have heard 3.5 described in my own group as "a system of options"; while this is certainly true, it is unfortunately not the interpreted vision most players have (in my experience). Having gone on long enough I shall simply finish by stating that I give kudos to Kevin Baker for thinking outside the box and thus winning the WoTC contest, but that I personally feel you jumped into another box a mile away while doing it; Eberron is not D&D.
It sounds to me like your problem is not with Eberron, it's with D&D 3.X; or rather, with players who, in your experience, play D&D like it originally was... clear the dungeon, collect the loot, level up.
Understand that like everyone else I was merely putting my two cents in; agree or disagree with me--we all have that right. The setting isn't my cup of tea, obviously it is for you and I was merely...
Sorry, I don't wanted to offend you. It is just that I left D&D because anything was killing monsters and taking treasures (good roleplay didn't give any XP). I returned with the 3ed, because now it seemed to encourage more then the things above.
D&D 2e and D&D 3.x aren't the ones encouraging any one kind of gameplay - it's your Dungeon Master.
If I want to reward my players for roleplaying then I will do so, regardless of the game system (whether it be GURPS, Rifts, AD&D, 3rd Edition, or what have you). I do not, and have not, rewarded my players for charging into a room full of bad guys because they wanted to kill stuff.
The Dungeon Master sets the tone of the game - if you're Dungeon Master isn't jiving with your play style, perhaps you need to find a new Dungeon Master.
Anyway, all my humble opinions.
Yes, it's the DM who sets the tone for the adventure, as well as breathes life into the setting.
Even if Aberzombie turns into a raving madman when he gets a whiff of Eberron,
Down with Eberron! I'll never give up the quest! Mwa ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.
I'm sure his Greyhawk campaign is absolutely great, since he's got some real enthusiasm for it, and I'd love to give his campaign world a try, with a DM who has lots of energy and love for the story.
After reading the low-magic-setting proponents comments here and in the "AoW and Eberron Don't Mix" thread, I've looked up some reviews and information on Iron Heroes on the net. It looks quite appealing and I may just buy the book and run it if I can find it in my FLGS.
I must say that I prefer comments like "this setting rocks and this is why" rather than "your favorite setting sucks".
I must say that I prefer comments like "this setting rocks and this is why" rather than "your favorite setting sucks".
Constructive, objective comments are usually better than subjective ones. :-P
Evilturnip, email me if you want a copy of Iron Heroes. (I bought it, but it's not really my cup of tea. More than happy to sell you my copy.)
One of the major things that contribute to making Eberron enjoyable for myself and my players is that the heroes are important. Greyhawk has Gygax's old PCs running around in it as mobile Deus Ex Machinas as does Forgotten Realms with Ed Greenwood's favorite characters. Eberron doesn't really have that safety net. So putting the PCs in the spotlight is much easier, despite the fact that there isn't a novel written officially about them.
As far as the munchkin factor of Eberron goes, I don't see changelings, shifters, warforged or kalashtar to be all that unbalancing or munchkiny. There are restrictions that can be exploited to reign a munchkin in if they are playing these characters and nothing is preventing the DM from doing the same thing. Eberron is conducive to a balance between playing D&D from the gut or from the brain with the suggested 'search slow fight fast' mentality. It's really all a matter of what the DM does with the setting. The high magic content is really window dressing as much as anything. Treasure levels are about the same and there aren't as many huge artifacts to trip over as there are in other established settings.
Nicholas Logue's fantastic "Chimes At Midnight" from the most recent Dungeon magazine is an example of what is possible in the Eberron setting. Is it entirely unique to Eberron? No, of course not. But it plays to the setting's strengths: a city adventure that gives the best of event based investigation scenarios with big sporadic combat encounters and small tastes of dungeon crawling. There are tough combats for the guys that want to play min/maxed warforged juggernauts and then there are more cerebral encounters for the players that want to be immersed in their role as investigator/heroes. As with any published campaign setting, it's what you make of it and there's just as much potential for disappointment as with any other setting.
And if you've already thought up most of what's in here for a homebrew, why even bother arguing about pre-fabricated campaigns? Strip it of what you like and move on. I like pre-made settings because I don't have time to make my own campaign world and we don't play regularly enough to warrant investing a lot of time in making my own. So if I want pulpy adventure, I can run an Eberron campaign. If I want old school Dungeons and Dragons, I'll run Greyhawk. If I want to trip over drow every time I turn around I'll...well, you get the idea.
At this point my girlfriend's comment would be, "What do you mean 'turns into'?"Even if Aberzombie turns into a raving madman when he gets a whiff of Eberron,
I've read your comments elsewhere and they seemed thoughtful, so I assumed it was kind of like vampires and garlic or some kind of thing that triggers the hate. Did I read in another thread that you really digged spelljammer? Compared to Eberron, that setting, IMO is completely crazy-go-nuts. "It was the 80s. Everyone was doing so much blow!" I'd love to hear the opinion of someone who ran/played it and enjoyed it.
Thanks for the offer, Lilith. I'll have to take a look at my finances to see if I can afford a new hardcover roleplaying book this month, but I may very well buy that book from you.
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I've read your comments elsewhere and they seemed thoughtful, so I assumed it was kind of like vampires and garlic or some kind of thing that triggers the hate.
It is kind of like that, but there are a lot of things that trigger a lot of different degrees of hate. Basically, I am a very opinionated person and sometimes get into very heated discussions about lots of different things.
Did I read in another thread that you really digged spelljammer? Compared to Eberron, that setting, IMO is completely crazy-go-nuts. "It was the 80s. Everyone was doing so much blow!" I'd love to hear the opinion of someone who ran/played it and enjoyed it.
Yes, my original gaming group had a very memorable Spelljammer Campaign one summer. I even played a good-aligned drow wielding two swords, although I was a fighter and the swords were long swords. We did all kinds of great stuff in that campaign. We had a smalljammer as our ship and worked out of the Rock of Bral. At one point we were in Faerie Space, which was kind of like a REALLY big tree floating in space. We even went into a crystal sphere where the sun had been extinguished and a powerful vampire was in charge of the single world. We then went on a long quest to re-ignite the sun. After that, your truly fought the vampire to a standstill at which time he got sucked into Ravenloft. All in all, the campaign was a blast, and it was one of the last big campaings we did as a group. So I have a lot of sentimental love for Spelljammer. Plus, I always thought the Negoi kicked ass. When I saw them in Lords of Madness, my head nearly exploded with joy.
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Something I keep reading in people's reposnses are that they acknowledge Eberron as not being true to the expected D&D campaign setting. If that's the case I then ask you: Why does it bare the D&D name? I have no answer for my own question; but I can express my own views as to why it should not bare the D&D name to it.It includes dungeons, it includes dragons. It includes any element from the core rule books that the DM wants. It involves sitting around a table with character sheets, dice, and too much soda. How much more D&D can you get?
First, you have a timeline that stretches to somewhere around 15-17,000 years and the world is still medieval predominantly.First off, the timeline goes all the way back to "???". Secondly, the recorded human civilization in that time period only goes back 3,000 years so far as per the books, and in that time humans have dominated 2 continents, and reached an age that more closely resembles the renaissance than the medieval age. Lastly, consider that it took humans on this world (the real world) well over 15,000 years to reach the "medieval age." The oldest recorded findings of human civilization date back about 15,000 years, iirc.Okay, account for the fact that some civilizations will develop slower than others; but with magic in such readily available supply and being used in everyday practices as it is one would think that this world should have PCs and an internet at the very leasty by now. I mean how do you honestly expect an intelligent consumer to read about how there is essentially an electrical metrorail crisscorssing the continent as well as entire cities that move mechanically yet there aren't even revolvers much less "lightening pistols" invented yet?There are no computers or internet, because Eberron has developed through magic rather than science. The gnomes who bear the mark of house Sivis can transport messages between cities, while the dwarves of house Kundarak can store your wealth in...
I agree with virtually everything Thanis says, but I have this to say in addition for why I like the Eberron setting. I presonally think it is much more "realistic" as to the potential impact that magic could have on society, at least as it works in 3E. Magic provides the possibility of:
1. Immense personal, and ultimately political, power
2. Due to 1., immense wealth
So, if you were a practitioner of magic, what would you do? Sit alone in a tower waiting for a bunch of thugs, er adventurers, to come and find you? Or form a guild or association, really coin it (remember, with enough xp, you can make 1000gp A DAY if you sell in the open market) and garner a lot of power for yourself? Remember, your INT is probably 15+. Obvious, really.
Off the back of that, you would develop markets for your product, alliances with govenments and merchants, and generally act like a capitalist. So you would see the commoditisation of magic (or low level magic, anyway) and its general adoption abroad due to its labour saving and productivity enhancing properties. As such, it comes across as more of a technology in these circumstances.
So..... You have dragonmarked houses wielding considerable economic power and the streets are lit, to some extent, through magic (as obvious examples). This seems a much more realistic way that magic would affect a society that the other, pseudo-medieval settings realy allow for. Eberron isn't a cyberpunk setting but it is getting reasonably close to a steampunk setting. It also, to some extent, reflects NOW much more than the traditional, Tolkienesque (for want of a better term) settings of GH and FR, which really hark back to a nostalgia for a simple, pre-Victorian agrarian society.
There is nothing wrong with the "wizard in his tower" trope - it has its adherents, and I am not so Eberron-y that I don't want to play in those sorts of worlds. But Eberron actually feels more confortable for me as a modern citizen of an advanced nation.
Let's say anyone on these boards were in charge of a line of Greyhawk products to be released over the fiscal year 2007. We're talking about 6-8 192 page hardcovers, and maybe half a dozen 32 page adventures. Something like that.
I don't think the entire staff of WotC could accomplish this. Even pushed to 2008 would be a stretch...which is saying nothing about WotC 'leasing' Greyhawk to the understaffed Paizo team.
WotC realizes they have to be careful about what resources they put into development. Its very hit and miss. If Eberron fails its doubtful that WotC will exist in the same way it does now -- it is simply a small arm of a large corporation.
My personal opinion of Eberron is it just isn't my cup of tea. It fairly screamed "Arcanum" to me when it came out. Those of you into CRPG's probably remember that one.
I have little doubt that a small company could cash in on the popularity of Greyhawk. It has been around far longer than any other setting and it will be around for a much longer time to come. If there is anything that can be agreed upon is that if we ever do see more Greyhawk products I hope they are done 'right' or otherwise I am firmly in the camp of not at all. I haven't been overly impressed with what Greyhawk tidbits we have gotten in the recent WotC book releases so I remain pretty skeptical overall.
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So - my turn!
For the books: I play D&D since the red box had been available here in Germany. I am 34 years old and most of the time I am
the DM. After the first few adventures I started using (and buying) FR material. I still have almost all of it (only the Pirates accessory is missing). A lot of this stuff is below average quality. But there are some gems among the material as well.
Since I play D&D I always come across people who are talking bad about one CS. The Realms have gotten a lot of beating in the last decade with people complaining about the "high-magic, munchkinish world, where PCs don't matter!". People were talking about how awful it is to use the guys called Elminster or Drizzt or any other of the heroes from the novels.
But in the end, there are people out there who love it and use it regularly.
Now the FRCS got some more room to breath cause there's this new world called Eberron, which is attracting this kind of discussion. People started to talk again about a new setting which is "sooo uncool", "high-magic" and too "advanced or modern". People are ranting about the Lightning-Rail or the Dragonmarked houses or whatnot... It's the same as it has been almost two decades ago! Only the name now is Eberron, not Forgotten Realms.
I took my time to think about all of this. I am pretty sure that we "Old-schoolers" love Greyhawk, because the first adventures which had been available on the market had been set in Greyhawk. Our fondest memories are deeply linked to places like "Temple of elemental evil", "The Keep on the Bordelrands" and many more.
When it comes to the FR, I alway tell those people who openly tell everyone how much the hate the Realms, that any CS is only as munchkiny as the DM alows it to be. The DM never has to use Drizzt, Elminster, Khelben or whoever if his players don't like them.
As I get older every year, time is getting more and more precious. So I am pleased and happy to have places, npcs, societys, history and many more things already developed. I can use those info or not, but more important, I can CHANGE it! It's always easier to changed something given than come up with something totally new - and it saves time, time which I can use to prepare other things or spend with my family!
I stopped playing FR a long time ago and got hooked with Eberron again. Yes, I love the setting, even if I will not have the Lightning-Rail or all of the Dragonmarked Houses in my next Eberron campaign. After the Last War "my Warforged" just fell silent the moment Cyre was blown into oblivion! They just stopped walking, talking, fighting or doing whatver they did that moment. Now, everybody is thinking about what happened with those warforged and what they'll do if they start moving again...
Not having a L-Rail or elemental cards, Khorvaire is becoming bigger again and a trip to Xen'drik is like it should be, an
adventure itself, lasting a couple of months.
Those people who start researching what happened with the Warforged will one day become artificers in my campaign (that
means, as soon as one of my players wants to play one).
You see, it's my Eberron, and it sure is very different from someone elses...
If you don't like a setting, don't use it. If you like parts of it, use them in your world (homemade, or other official setting).
Nothing is wrong with Eberron, because it brought some really new and cool aspects to the game.
I love it's history and I love the history of FR or GH.
I use the maps of Eberron for my world, but my world is so different from Eberron.
For all those who would love to see Eberron "zipped" away - think about those who like the setting! What would you think
about people wanting your favorite setting to not get supported anymore?!
Eberron (as well as FR and GH) has a lot to give and be used in other settings - so be creative and change what you don't like, or just don't use it!
Long live any setting which is used by D&D players, supported or not!
Sorry, I got longwinded, but I am online again after almost two weeks and its so nice to be here on these boards again!
After the Last War "my Warforged" just fell silent the moment Cyre was blown into oblivion! They just stopped walking, talking, fighting or doing whatver they did that moment. Now, everybody is thinking about what happened with those warforged and what they'll do if they start moving again...
Wow. That's actually pretty cool. The animating force is just gone. That brings up questions on what that force actually was, and it sure seems tied to the destruction of Cyre.
That's big stuff. In another setting, it would be as if an entire subschool of magic stopped working, or if the astral plane were suddenly no longer accessable.
stopped playing FR a long time ago and got hooked with Eberron again. Yes, I love the setting, even if I will not have the Lightning-Rail or all of the Dragonmarked Houses in my next Eberron campaign. After the Last War "my Warforged" just fell silent the moment Cyre was blown into oblivion! They just stopped walking, talking, fighting or doing whatver they did that moment. Now, everybody is thinking about what happened with those warforged and what they'll do if they start moving again...
I really enjoy the Eberron setting, but have not had an opportunity to run a campaign in it yet. It maybe be another year before it happens, maybe two.
In the meantime, I am stealing this idea. It's perfect.
*yoink*
I loved Spelljammer: Shadow of the Spider Moon, and I really like the idea of Spelljammer in general. Wanna make something of it? :-P
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DRYDER:
What have people done with the immobile warforged? Are they being placed in a few areas with several of them per area? Are they being placed in several areas with only a few to an area? If they are hostile on reanimation then concentrating them would make for an army. Separating them widly would make it necessary to hunt them down individually or in small groups.
Well, what's happening with the Warforged depends on the kingdom. Karrnath is secreting away all warforged they can/could find, in order to try to make an army of them. Where they are hidden, only Kaius and a handfull of his most trusted know.
Aundair and Breland are putting them away in units of not more than 5 warforged. They are magically bound and, if possible, taken apart.
Thrane just destroyed them, as they always thought them not natural.
And in Cyre, where probably most of the warforged fell silent, nobody knows where they are. Only a handful were found so far, and speculations arise, that one warforged kind of survived and tries to bring his kind "back to life". (This is my story around the Lord of the Blades - who's trying to find a way to "reboot" his warforged allies).
Of course, single warforged could be found all over the continent of Khrovaire and sometimes have a bird's nest on them, or moss, or whatever. But under all the things elements can do to a warforgeds material, the creature itself is still fine.
Travelers tell of such "warforged statues" who's eyes are following you on every step you take.
A lot of storys are abound.
As in Sharn are found only 12 warforged at all, the authorities ruled, that they should stay in place, in order to remind everyone of the horrors a new war would bring...
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DRYDER:
I like your idea on the warforged. I put them at the top of things that I dislike about Eberron. However, your idea makes their existence appealing, as adversaries anyway.
After playing a couple of sessions on Eberron, me and my players found the warforged annoying as well. That's why I came up with this idea.
When I start my new Eberron campaign (end of this year), I hope that this little twist adds some mystery and kind of puts the warforged away from the game without robbing Eberron itself of them.Warforged (in my Eberron) are never known as "nice creatures". They are dark, unforgiving and known to show no mercy. Noone wants to have them come to life again!
What have people done with the immobile warforged? Are they being placed in a few areas with several of them per area?
Step right up! Step right up! Get your warforged table lamps! Warforged armor! Made from REAL warforged!
I see those spectacles have caught your eye miss, yes those ARE actual warforged eye-pieces...
The possibilities are limitless. :)
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What have people done with the immobile warforged? Are they being placed in a few areas with several of them per area?Step right up! Step right up! Get your warforged table lamps! Warforged armor! Made from REAL warforged!
I see those spectacles have caught your eye miss, yes those ARE actual warforged eye-pieces...
The possibilities are limitless. :)
Right you are!
This gives me the idea that, after the war, some people started to dismantle (right word?) some of the warforged in order to sell their components.And yes, such stuff might come up in very different places - even in magic items, which might become intelligent items, with a terminator-like warfoged voice...
The possibilities are limitless. Right you are! ;)
Steampunk, it's not.You are right. It was just what came into my mind to show the difference. More correct would be to say Eberron has made the jump from the middle ages to the renaissance.
Oh, I'd definitely agree with you there. It's less mediaeval feudal lords, and more The Three Musketeers. It's still got a lot of the D&D flavour, though. Magic meant that cannons were never invented by necessity, so guns were never invented and heavy armour was never obsoleted. Wizards, I imagine to be more like the State Alchemists in Fullmetal Alchemist, but they're still casting combat magic.
In my opinion ToEE and RtToEE (and other of the first generation adventures) are the worst kind of adventure out there. Room, Monster, Treasure, repeat endlessly... Even Monopoly is more interesting. So I'm glad that the classic dungeon crawl is dying and that WotC goes to new frontiers.
Some people love dungeon crawls, but a lot of the more mature players are expecting something more involved. I think Wizards is trying to go in that direction with Eberron, in part to keep people from leaving D&D when they outgrow the "kick in the door" style of play. It's more mature, a little more adult, because there's a lot more money in marketing games to people who can afford to pay more for them.