I have seen that many people do not like the Eberron Campaign setting. While I respect your opinions, I DO like the setting. Its one campaign setting that is different from many of the other campaign settings and is high on magic while many other settings are not near on magic and spells as Eberron's magic wielding civilizations. The alignment rule is VERY screwed up. Paladins who are allied with Karnath?! (Nation where undead is a main battle weapon) Not happening in my setting. There are many new and neat things about the setting. I also like it because dragons were creaters of the world and among the wisest creatures (which they rightfully should be....well all other dragons except stupid inbred white dragons anyway.....). Many things dont make since about a campaign, this is where the DM intervenes to change things THEY beleive should be. Just because a book says that this person is this deadly or civilization is this way does not mean it has to be like that. I like Eberron because its a breath of fresh air and not just a carbon copy of another campaign setting like many that are based off of Forgotten Realms. Eberron is primarily a high magic fantasy setting that is filled with adventure and mystery. DMs also have control on how a region called Cyre was destroyed after the last war by a cataclymic event that left a hole stretching MILES that spawns nasty magic oriented creatures. Though there are many things in Eberron that are strange and need to be changed, I still love this fantasy setting.
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One of the neat things about Eberron is its "open-endedness" given that it's a new setting. Alas, this is bound to change. The game's makers will continue to release products that fashion how Eberron functions, define various regions, elaborate on histories, and eventually create a background staple much like that of Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. Give it time.
As for Eberron being a completely original setting - I recognize that there are elements of Eberron, given its history and races, that are different from other settings, but this isn't saying it's all that different either.
Nuts and bolts - any of the new races of Eberron could be used in Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk. The same goes for its classes, and with some tweaks, prestige classes, too.
Changelings and Shifters are pretty darn easy to introduce in their "always having been there" but never acutally fingered as a separate race until now. Warforged? In Faerun: plenty of gnome tinkers in Lantan or high level mages of notable concentration in Thay or Halruaa.
Dragonshards? Lesser Artifacts. Dragonmarked houses? Noble houses, just perhaps not as "all controlling" as in Eberron.
In Faerun, there were already airships ... just different. So, bringing Eberron's airships to Faerun shouldn't be all that hard. I'm not all that familiar with Greyhawk, but imagine it shouldn't be too much of a burden if someone wanted to.
In the end, I like the Eberron Campaign Setting, not because of Eberron (or Khorvaire), but rather, what new things the campaign book and supplements can bring to my campaigns in Forgotten Realms.
I fail to see the setting a radical departure from previous campaign settings. You want radical departure? Try Planescape or Dark Sun. NOW, those are campaign settings that are quite removed from the standard that I would argue Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Eberron follow.
That said, I concede that Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and Eberron all have different "flavors." But 31 flavors of ice cream, in the end gives you ice cream. (I don't know what you're eating with Planescape or Dark Sun? Don't know whether it's legal either!)
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I have looked through the Eberron books, and, even though I am not interested, I have nothing against the setting other than the fact that it seems to be wotc's replacement for Greyhawk. It does contain many fresh and new ideas, but I am completely against the distancing of D&D from its greatest setting. If I would have to choose one, I would choose Greyhawk in a heartbeat.
One of the reasons for this IS the high magic in Eberron. I like for magic to be more mysterious, and practiced only by a few who are whispered of by superstitious peasants and widely known for their abilities. I feel that having magic be an every day part of everyone's life cheapens it in some way. When I ran a Forgotten Realms campaign, I completely removed Halruaa from my world. I thought it to be inane that so much emphasis was placed upon the power of Elminster, Khelben, and others, then it was said that wizards of 20th level and up were commonplace in Halruaa, and even the guy that shovelled out the barns had two or three levels in Wizard.
When everyone has the same abilities, the novelty goes away.
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I have looked through the Eberron books, and, even though I am not interested, I have nothing against the setting other than the fact that it seems to be wotc's replacement for Greyhawk. It does contain many fresh and new ideas, but I am completely against the distancing of D&D from its greatest setting. If I would have to choose one, I would choose Greyhawk in a heartbeat.
One of the reasons for this IS the high magic in Eberron. I like for magic to be more mysterious, and practiced only by a few who are whispered of by superstitious peasants and widely known for their abilities. I feel that having magic be an every day part of everyone's life cheapens it in some way. When I ran a Forgotten Realms campaign, I completely removed Halruaa from my world. I thought it to be inane that so much emphasis was placed upon the power of Elminster, Khelben, and others, then it was said that wizards of 20th level and up were commonplace in Halruaa, and even the guy that shovelled out the barns had two or three levels in Wizard.
When everyone has the same abilities, the novelty goes away.
I totally agree. I love the mystery of magic in the Greyhawk setting. Ebberron seems to steal all the mysticism of magic and leave very little "grit" to the overall survival factor, and mystique of the setting. I also feel betrayed by the abandonment of Greyhawk by WotC. That is the reason I have not allowed myself to purchase any Ebberon stuff....on Principle.
I have read most of the campaign setting and just find it to be too predictable and too "trying to reach a certain market". Anyway, I don't wish to detract from others gaming experience and if Ebberron is your cup of tea then I say drink up. I like coffee (spiked)!FH
Except for tid-bits I've picked up in Dragon mags and such, I haven't read anything on Eberron and have no great desire to do so. Not because of principle or dislike, just becaus I have created my own setting and I have most of the "new" ideas from Eberron in there already. I took airships from Planescape years ago, I've always loved constructs, and magic is, while not everywhere, certainly available to anyone with deep enough pockets and in most lands spellcasters are part of society. So, other then the facts that Dragons created the world, what's so new?
I'm with Fake Healer, except that I will borrow ideas from Eberron that I like. I have no innate hostility towards Eberron...there's some really neat stuff in there, but it just isn't like my old friend GH.
However, this territory has been thoroughly explored in many threads. Some people like Eberron, others don't.
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I'm with Fake Healer, except that I will borrow ideas from Eberron that I like. I have no innate hostility towards Eberron...there's some really neat stuff in there, but it just isn't like my old friend GH.
However, this territory has been thoroughly explored in many threads. Some people like Eberron, others don't.
Just to clarify, I never said I wouldn't borrow. I like the concept of dragonshards and I like the playable dopplegangers. Just dislike the setting they are in.
FH
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One of the reasons for this IS the high magic in Eberron. I like for magic to be more mysterious, and practiced only by a few who are whispered of by superstitious peasants and widely known for their abilities. I feel that having magic be an every day part of everyone's life cheapens it in some way.
When everyone has the same abilities, the novelty goes away.
Its like that line from The Incredibles, "And when everybody is super, then no one will be". Wisdom from a cartoon movie.
I have looked through the Eberron books, and, even though I am not interested, I have nothing against the setting other than the fact that it seems to be wotc's replacement for Greyhawk. It does contain many fresh and new ideas, but I am completely against the distancing of D&D from its greatest setting. If I would have to choose one, I would choose Greyhawk in a heartbeat.
One of the reasons for this IS the high magic in Eberron. I like for magic to be more mysterious, and practiced only by a few who are whispered of by superstitious peasants and widely known for their abilities. I feel that having magic be an every day part of everyone's life cheapens it in some way. When I ran a Forgotten Realms campaign, I completely removed Halruaa from my world. I thought it to be inane that so much emphasis was placed upon the power of Elminster, Khelben, and others, then it was said that wizards of 20th level and up were commonplace in Halruaa, and even the guy that shovelled out the barns had two or three levels in Wizard.
When everyone has the same abilities, the novelty goes away.
While I completely understand your dislike of Halruaa as an over-concentration of magical power in the world keep in mind that the FRCS mentions places whre knights wearing glass armor ride griffons above the ocean while fighting pirate ships- that's a little out there, too, compared to typical D&D. The FR has many rergions that are poorly detailed and odd just for the sake of them being there and open for development, and so that the campaign has several "dream land"-esque areas as well. Halruaa is one of these, a mystical land that most people have only heard rumors of, intended to stand out as unusual.
Now that I've voiced that opinion, I'll also reiterate that you are perfectly justified in removing it from your games. One of the most compelling reasons that I find FR to be my ideal setting is that I think the magic level is juuust right (said Goldy Locks style here:) ). There are plenty of wizards runnign around for whatever purposes you need, and to equip all your heroes and villains with all the magical goodies they could want, but not to the point of beign trivial or removing that "grity" feel that everyone seems to love so much.
However, I do find the innovations and vision of Eberron to be fairly unique and interesting because of that. As I've said before- it is a great ALTERNATE. It's not standard D&D in many ways, without some heavy tweaking.
I will (hopefully soon) be playing in an Eberron campaign run by DragonNerd, and my preference would be for him to run it with all the magic laid out in the ECS, but portray it not as post-WWII, with people walking around in trench coats, but more like FR or even GH at the hieght of one of the great magocratic empires of the days of old, like Netheril or some other GH counterpart that I know not of. Still with that more "down to Earth for a fantasy game" feel, but simply everything glows and works really well.
An advantage of Eberron is that your players will probably know nothing of the setting, or at most they'll have read the Eberron Campaign Setting which still leaves you plenty of room to customize that. You're free to say "In my Eberron, resurrection magic is unheard of" or "In my Eberron, Thrane and Aundair are long-time allies and hate Breland", and you won't be contradicting an established body of canon material like you would in Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance.
Because of this, I'm free to say that in rural areas in the Five Kingdoms, magic is still viewed with some superstition. Wizards might be distrusted or even hanged. Perhaps people think that dragons are just a myth, or foreign war propaganda, because nobody they know has ever seen one. The Korranberg Chronicle might be cheap to cityfolk, but what does a farmer care about the daily news when it's a twenty mile round trip journey and half a day's wages, when there's work to be done?
Of course, the more civilized areas, especically Sharn itself, would treat magic as if it was everyday, just as we treat modern technology (cars, computers, construction cranes) as if they're nothing extraordinary. Even then, however, combat magic and high level magic, and those who wield them, are still things to be feared. You don't worry about guns, but to see a man in the city walk around with one in plain daylight might worry you. You don't worry about fighter jets or ballistic missiles, and you know they exist somewhere in the world, but to see fighter jets "in the flesh" so to speak, and in your own city, that might put you on edge.
Oi! So much hate. Where's the love?
I really like the Magewright NPC class which grants knowledge of (i think) a stingy one spell per level.
It's a great way to have a high-magic society without having high-level mages rampaging around everywhere.
Most of the Magewrights would have spells like magecraft, feather fall, alarm, etc., rather than crazy powerful stuff.
Anyway, I don't know why I'm writing this. Probably to try and combat the prevailing sentiment that eberron is crap because it is full of computer hackers with robot familiars and dung-shovellers with wizard levels.
Personally, I like Eberron. It has many conveniences which are great aids to adventurers - lightning rails, flying ships, bazzars for the sale of magic items. I just find the whole thing interesting and fun.
But Paladins associated with Karnnath? Mind pointing out where you read about that? To my knowledge, the alignment 'rule' only applies to clerics so that actual corruption in any given church is much easier to believe. Paladins must still follow their code supporting what is good and lawful.
My problem with Eberron really has less to do with its content and more to do with the feeling of having it shoved down my throat. With in a year of it's release it had novels, with in two years it has a video game world. There is practically a new Eberron suplement put out every month. I think that WoTC could have used those resources to bring some of their older stuff up to speed.
I bought the Eberron campaign setting. It didn't do anything for me. So I used it as the basis of an invading army from another dimension. The army was repelled, their dimension was destroyed, and the survivors allowed me to introduce what parts of the system into my game world and still have an explaination as to why it is suddenly there (like Warforged, as far as I'm concerned they are really the only truly original idea in the setting.)
Just to clarify, I never said I wouldn't borrow. I like the concept of dragonshards and I like the playable dopplegangers. Just dislike the setting they are in.
FH
Cool....sorry, my friend...
I fail to see the setting a radical departure from previous campaign settings. You want radical departure? Try Planescape or Dark Sun. NOW, those are campaign settings that are quite removed from the standard that I would argue Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Eberron follow.
This was one of the things that stuck out in this post - The idea that Eberron is really new or unique. I'd say not really - certianly not compared to the likes of Darksun, Planescape or Spelljammer. Its pretty much basic fantasy with a few curve balls. Nothing wrong with that but it should be recognized for what it is.
I will (hopefully soon) be playing in an Eberron campaign run by DragonNerd, and my preference would be for him to run it with all the magic laid out in the ECS, but portray it not as post-WWII, with people walking around in trench coats, but more like FR or even GH at the hieght of one of the great magocratic empires of the days of old, like Netheril or some other GH counterpart that I know not of. Still with that more "down to Earth for a fantasy game" feel, but simply everything glows and works really well.
I'd say the style is more post WWI.
I bought the Eberron campaign setting. It didn't do anything for me. So I used it as the basis of an invading army from another dimension. The army was repelled, their dimension was destroyed, and the survivors allowed me to introduce what parts of the system into my game world and still have an explaination as to why it is suddenly there (like Warforged, as far as I'm concerned they are really the only truly original idea in the setting.)
I think that's fair. A great thing about the Eberron Campaign Setting is that even if you don't like the setting, there's a lot you can salvage from it. It's like tearing a computer apart and putting all the good parts in your old one.
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It's like tearing a computer apart and putting all the good parts in your old one.
Heh heh heh...I've done that a lot.
There are some aspects about ECS I like (elemental binding, a goblinoid empire, the Gatekeepers, the Lords of Dust), but the setting didn't particularly thrill me.
I was pretty pumped for Eberron when the first articles started coming out for it. It was the FUBU of gamers. I loved the idea that we sorry dregs had the capacity to jump in there and pitch some ideas to the big guys. Heck, I pitched three. When the big day came and I got some previews of Eberron I read eagerly.
I think the first sign something was amiss was the "Maltese Falcon meets Raiders of the Lost Ark" mission statement. From there every impression I've gotten of the game has been less like hate and more like tired dissapointment.
I'm a pretty easy sell usually, but the setting seems somewhat sketchy in its development, a little heavy on whizbang and full of derivative stuff like doppelganger-people, golem-people, werewolf-people, etc.
Really I want to be sold on Eberron. I don't like having a D&D setting I don't like. Honestly this would be the first one. What I really need is a good sell that doesn't wrankle me.
I think what Eberron needs is a good computer RPG along the lines of Dark Sun: Shattered Lands, Baldur's Gate, Planescape: Torment and Temple of Elemental Evil. The fact that they've created Warcraft and Everquest style games as their intro to Eberron just make me think its even more of a lightweight setting.
I don't hate Eberron, just from what I've read it doesn't seem well thought out, just a stack of cliches, not a real world.
There is some stuff that could be saved, but I don't see the "grittiness" that was advertised.
I hope the next campaign world is given more thought for how things will play and how the world will be balanced for gamers.
I don't hate Eberron, just from what I've read it doesn't seem well thought out, just a stack of cliches, not a real world.
There is some stuff that could be saved, but I don't see the "grittiness" that was advertised.
I hope the next campaign world is given more thought for how things will play and how the world will be balanced for gamers.
I know this may cause a bit of uproar but...
My view is the opposite, I think that all the older worlds, Greyhawk in particular, are little more than massive clichés. They offer little more than you can get from just reading any fantasy book set in a medieval setting, the book doesn't even have to be great. Eberron on the other hand offers all the new ideas one could want, while still supporting old style, three types of elves being just one example.
As for grittiness, read Sharn: City of Towers, I'm sorry but in my opinion, kicks 'Greyhawk's ass!
I'm game, what is the "loads of new stuff?"
What are the great new ideas?
It seems to me that it is just more videogame/or (cheesy) moviesque, not a better tabletop game world.
For the record, magic to make a toaster work is not innovative in my opinion - as I remember it is a kind of high magic described in the DMG as farsical and suitable only for a specific kind of game. Further that kind of magic has a lot of ramifications to communication, trade, etc. not really dealt with. The magic isn't realistic in its own context, magic as common and easy as it is in Eberron, would lead to communications networks, financial institutions, business and political institutions bigger and more sophisticated than our own. Well I don't want to start a rant, but its seems ill thought out, and simplistic. Perhaps by design - I may not be the target audience.
But I may be judging too harshly, like I said I have only skimmed the books (the game books not the novels) so I may have missed something.
I'm not trying to be sarcastic - enlighten me. I would hate to be missing something great.
Personally, I like the Eberron campaign setting and my players liked it as well when we ran an Eberron campaign. I also love Greyhawk and can find things in Forgotten Realms to enjoy. As far as the idea of having Eberron 'forced down your throat', I can remember in the mid to late '90s there were very few AD&D products available from my experience that didn't have the huge Forgotten Realms logo emblazoned on them. How many crummy novels are set in Faerun? How many video games?
That being said, none of these campaigns are above reproach. Like many White Wolf games, it feels to me like the more intrigue heavy campaigns like Eberron and The Forgotten Realms have too many shadowy power groups shading around. Nothing anyone does is of their own initiative, but, rather are done to serve the aims of their lurking Rakshasa or Harper or Zhentarim or Emerald Claw masters. My player characters only go to the tavern for a pint after they get approval from their superiors in the Dreaming Dark.
It may be an advantage to Greyhawk that it isn't supported as much by new WoTC products in the future. That kind of support, for me, made The Forgotten Realms too huge and unwieldy and detailed to use just because TSR was trying to sell as many new products as possible by plugging them into the franchise. "Did our marketing research turn up support for a new race of Elephant People? Toss 'em into some under-used part of Faerun and watch the cash flow in!" And Eberron may end up that way, as well. But since Greyhawk already has a large backlog of products, many of which are available on pdf format from Paizo, new material that isn't a module from Dungeon would just be redundant.
My view is the opposite, I think that all the older worlds, Greyhawk in particular, are little more than massive clichés...
I agree -- which is why I think they have endured. Either campaign offers a very traditional swords & sorcery genre, and is thus appealing to the widest possible audience.
Which is why I fear that an earlier poster may be right and Eberron may die -- it's too original. It's far enough outside of mainstream swords & sorcery that I'm not sure it will garner and keep a large enough following (despite WotC's efforts to make FR and Eberron our only realistic choices).
And for the record, the demise of Eberron would also be a bad thing -- from what little I've see, it's way cool.
Regards,
Jack
Greyhawk fanboy
Hehe I am with aberzombie; can I have two years 8 months; 4 days at noon? No telling how long they will beat a dead horse with a big stick though.... I just dont find Eberron to be all they interesting or fun to play in; cant say the online D&D Eberron game is really all that much fun either nor does it bring out much of the Eberron world; it's kinda like D&D lite. Care to take side bets on the Online MMORPH Eberron world; I think would have like Forgotten Realms online a lot better; but I understand they need to produce new stuff to make money.
I'm predicting that Eberroon will be (deservedly) dead and buried within about 3 years. Anyone want to start a betting pool? Of course, we'd have to screen for age; can't have the kiddies who are under 18 doing something bad like a little gambling. Or is it 21? Damn, I can't remember!
This is really sad... people betting on the demise of a setting the WotC seems to have gambled quite a bit on. Please note, Eberron dying will NOT bring back Greyhawk.
I keep on hearing that Eberron sucks because Greyhawk is great. I'm not sure I agree. Don't get me wrong, I like Greyhawk. I like FR. I don't like the current execution of the FR books, however... I much preferred the original series of FR supplements.
My husband DMs a group of six. We're all over 30 and far from the target demographic, but frankly.... I love Eberron, and I think the rest of our group enjoys it too. I read the books and I don't feel (as I do frequently for FR) that I'm reading a dry and dusty history book that makes me want to fall asleep.
Is it perfect? No.
But it's damned k00l.
I like kalashtar and the Inspired and the Lords of Dust. I like the imagery of the broken bridge between Karrnath and Thrane. I like the lightningrail and the mournland. I think the airships could have seen a better execution, but that won't stop me from using them. I like dinosaur riding halfling warriors.
I'm saddened to see people betting on Eberron's demise. It's a good setting. I don't understand why so many people have to rag on it. They can't just say they don't like it. They have to try to make it bad. And it's not.
Feel free to say you don't like the setting. That's fine, everybody has different tastes. But saying it's bad...
I've read an awful lot of posts that talk about how bad Eberron is, and they all seem to boil down to "I just don't like the setting." I wish people would just be honest, say they don't like it, and not feel a need to try to tear it down to prove that it's bad. You don't need to prove it's bad to justify not liking it, okay. When you do that, it makes those of us who do like it feel pretty crappy.
- Ashavan
I should also add... my husband was almost ready to quit D&D when Eberron came out.
It's hooked him back in, and as a D&D fan boy myself, I'm rather happy about that!
- Ashavan
Please note, Eberron dying will NOT bring back Greyhawk...I like kalashtar and the Inspired and the Lords of Dust. I like the imagery of the broken bridge between Karrnath and Thrane. I like the lightningrail and the mournland. I think the airships could have seen a better execution, but that won't stop me from using them. I like dinosaur riding halfling warriors...I've read an awful lot of posts that talk about how bad Eberron is, and they all seem to boil down to "I just don't like the setting." I wish people would just be honest, say they don't like it, and not feel a need to try to tear it down to prove that it's bad....
Let me be the first to say that I don't hope Eberron keels over so that Greyhawk will come back (though frankly I thought the Living Greyhawk Gazatteer was woefully poorly done and the setting deserves at least one good 3.x sourcebook!) In fact if I did see any good to Eberron kicking it, it would be hopefully the creation of a NEW setting, a quality one that I could proudly stand behind. Maybe even pull out another one of the hundreds of thousands of player submitted settings.
And see THERE's the rub for me. If Eberron had been awesome, maybe it would sell better (hopefully it's doing good, I actually don't know how well the stuff is selling...) and then game companies would ask players to submit more ideas to turn into product and a whole grassroots RPG industry might happen. But I just don't see that it was very good--and I DO want to like it.
I can't help but blanch a little at "dinosaur riding halflings." it just seems a little cheesy. Likewise I agree with the post above that the "ubiquitous magic" should have real reprocussions on the setting--or at least a quantifiable set of rules describing how it works to prove it wouldn't. I don't hate Eberron. It just seems doughy in the center like it should have been cooked longer.
Honestly I'm glad there are people who like it. I'd like to join you.
When I read peopl saying things like "I think Eberron kicks Greyhawk's butt because Greyhawk is like reading a fantasy book" I want to know things. I want to know, for one, what is wrong with fantasy books? HOW does Eberron kick Greyhawk booty? What makes it so darn clever and too original for its own good? I haven't seen these things thus far.
Your post came closest, mentioning specific cool sounding things like "Kalashtar", "the Inspired", "Lords of Dust", "the Lightningrail" and the "Mournland". Sweet! I'm glad they're so cool...so what are they?
It is not that I wish WOTC any missfortune with their Eberron campaign, but realistically; what are your expectations. While some people may like it and others less so and some may even hold contempt for it, I am pretty nuetral. It just doesn't do anything for me. Look back for a moment about other products and other game companies even and look at how long they were supported by the main company before they were dropped for something new; this is my only point. I expect three years more or less to be about right, am thinking five years on the outside due to the rate in which source material is being published. I am pretty curious about what the next big thing will be campaign worldwise. Perhaps your not like me and do not have examples of this sitting on your dusty shelves from the last twentyfive years.
I really like the Eberron setting for a couple of reasons.
First off, I've never been a fan of the plethora of Super-powered NPCs dotting the landscape of the forgotten realms, and missed Greyhawk for the PC's are the Heroes aspect of play. Eberron is trying to play on that and again, make the PC's the heroes.
The changes to the alignment system in Eberron are great... corrupt "good" clerics who still channel their god's spell power, evil Silver Dragons, etc. Have always hated the alignment system in D&D and like a system when you can really surprise the players with role-playing encounters that would never really be expected in other settings.
I will agree, the magic system is a little over-the-top, but I think that magic in general really needed a boost in 3.x. Far too often I see the casters outshadowed by warriors and rogues in near any situation (other than rogues pounding away on golems/undead... but the rogue is still better off than the wizard vs the golem)
I miss Greyhawk, and know it won't be back any day soon... but in the meantime I like the Eberron setting and if you haven't tried it yet I'd say to give it a once over.
Let's see, why don't we count up the number of actual game products for the Realms and Eberron for 2k5... 4 Eberron products and 4 Realms products, and that's just actual rule books. Now if you looked at novels... Realms has a stranglehold on novels. So, how is it being forced down your throat? That's right, it's not. You just need to feel like you're cool, and hate anything new.
One thing I would like to bring up. There seems to be a fair amount of opposition on both sides of this issue, and I think it stems from one point. Eberron is new.
Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that those who oppose it are afraid of change, I'm merely saying this: I did not get into D&D until around 2000. When I did, I felt that both Greyhawk and FR were...too well defined. I felt that I couldn't do something that someone else hadn't already done, and better. Then Eberron came: Eberron was, to me, a reset button, if you will. No one had beat me at something to do with Eberron because I got it as the same time as them.
Also, Eberron is a world where things... no longer fit into their expected places. Cardinal Krozan, the second most powerful cleric within the Church of Silver Flame, a Lawful Good religion that actually controls a nation, is Lawful Evil. The only person whose word carries more weight than his is a 13 year old girl, who is an 18th level cleric within her cathedral. The 'greatest' evil cult in Eberron, the Blood of Vol, has thousands of followers who don't realize they follow a deranged lich, or even that there is truly a head to their religion. Hobgblins and Orcs SAVED the WORLD. This laeds to an air that just about anything is possible. Consider Riedra, a continent ruled over by beings of nightmare, who the people unwittingly help in their plans to take over the world. And Argonessen, A continent of DRAGONS, working together, and NOT locked in some epic plane-shattering scheme. Usually. Sahuagin serve as sailors' guides through dangerous waters, though they still don't really care if you crash or not. Everything in Eberron is different, with enough similarities to make you think you understand, but different enough that you may still be totally wrong.
I'm sorry if that seemed a little like a rant.
I just strongly enjoy Eberron.
And to answer an earlier question, The Lords of Dust are a cult/secret organization of Rakasha and others devoted to freeing the Rakasha rajahs, evil god-fiends trapped by ancient sorcery. Kalashtar are humans who share their mind and soul with a spirit of dreams, giving them psionic power. Inspired are the people possessed by the beings of nightmare I mentioned above(named Quori). A lightning rail is essentially a trian pulled by its own tracks, though it levitates. The Mournland used to be one tof the Five Nations of Khorvaire, until it exploded several years ago.
I agree- details are good. Perhaps some of you have read the recent thread concerning the view by some members of the public that "D&D is Evil"? A lartge consensus of people feel that the reason they hate D&D is ignorance of what it really is.
Now, I've only read parts of the ECS, but I plan on learning a lot more as I play through it with DragonNerd as my DM. Going back to my "details are good" statement, where did it say that people in Eberron have magic toasters? Or anything like that? Can you site a page number and quote the entry? I'm not trying to be flippant, I'm simply ignorant of the setting and want to know more about it before making up my mind- as should all people.
Cheesy? Not gritty? Well, as I said, I'm no afficianado, but the setting just came out of a world war! There are dozens upon dozens of political factions here and there still vying for power in a land scarred by the consequences of a war of such great magical power that it nearly destroyed all that is. I see grimy cities where claoked figures lurk in the dark, scheming plans to exploit the weakened state of the world. At least, that's how it's been explained to me.
Why are halflings on dinosaurs cheesy? It's no cheesier than having dinosaurs in D&D at all in my opinion. I mean, knights in full plate fighting a tyrannosaurus rex? That's hoaky no matter what. I think having the Talenta halflings use the dinosaurs makes them more acceptable, as it gives the dinosaurs a definate culture and region to belong to. It's a flavor element, to my mind, not something to be scoffed at. I envision the Talenta halflings in a loosely- Native American style, a people who I greatly admire. The saurians are a unique aspect of the culture that helps make the real-world basis of a primitive tribal culture stand out as being more interesting and fun.
Notice: The following is not intended to insult anyone's ego. If you find your ego insulted, I deeply apologize, but you have simply misread my statement.
Now, what I think the problem here is, is close-mindedness, the same that cause religious figures to condemn D&D in the first place. It borders on prejudice. I challenge each of you who claim to hate Eberron and proclaim all of its material to be total crap to state exactly why, EXACTLY why, you dislike it. I'm not judging you here, or trying to "call you out" on your opinion. You certainly have a right to them. I just want to make sure that you all have given fair thought and consideration to this, and to stop all the blatantly negative press that Eberron gets on these boards.
Viva la D&D, in all its glorious forms, from Greyhawk to Waterdeep to Sharn!
I prefer GH over Eberron because I got into the game with GH and it's like an old friend. I know the places and I know the people and I don't have to study a new sourcebook to run my campaign...it's my homebrew. The GH boxed set and LGG are the barley and I just added the hops and the yeast. I have hundreds of pages of GH campaign notes going back 26 years. I have hundreds of NPC's, dozens of detailed factions, maps, plots, dungeons galore.
That's exactly why I may run an Eberron campaign in the future, I may want to do the "reset" like previously mentioned.. I'm slowly warming up to it, thanks to people like Dryder and Koldoon. I purchased the Sharn HC and it's very interesting...different and not really my style, but in the future, who knows?
Nostalgia sells, however and I think that Wizards should just license GH to Paizo and let them run with it. The Eberron fans will still buy Eberron stuff and the GH fans will finally have someone to give their cash to. I think it would be a win-win situation. Yes, I'm a little jealous that Sharn and Eberron got a nice hardcover sourcebook with tons of beautiful artwork and nice maps and tens of thousands of words of text and GH only gets love in Dungeon it seems, but such is life.
PS: Halflings riding dinosaurs? That's cool!!
However, nothing in D&D would make me happier than an expensive $60 600 page HC GH update....I'd preorder that SOB and anything else GH as fast as I could type in my credit card number.
For the last ~10 years my group has played in FR, although for the last couple its actually been Freeport in FR. Noone in the group reads more than one or two FR novels a year and aren't all that concerned with 'canon'.
We just finished Shackled City - in Greyhawk. This was the first time my group was in GH, they're all younger than me. Before playing they always dismissed Greyhawk, but once we started playing one of the group mentioned that he liked the change, because he didn't know more than the average peasant. This was a reset for the group and a coming home/catching up for me.
This weekend we started the Age of Worms. I could have played it in FR, but just really like being back in GH. Being back after so long is great. I gave the players a quick history of the GH wars and the world, and they were surprised at all the stuff happening on the map on the wall.
I have some gritty campaigns planned for the future but they will be in the Thieves' World and Black Company universes.
Now I also have the ECS. I haven't read it all but I am trying to give it a chance. It may be silly for some but I just can't get past the pervasive magic - its just not for me. I think in the end I will pick from it, but not use it as a setting.
Wow. Not a bad batch of replies. I'm still digesting it all, and I don't have a ton of time to hammer out this reply, but I have to say the new responses are more what I was hoping for--real meat. Thanks. I have to say I like the idea of alignment shifts not immediately resulting in powers being nullified. The thirteen year old high power Joan of Arc cleric is really intriguing. I enjoy the post-war idea with dark crumbling cities. I still have to say I like the Chultian idea of dinosaurs as Jurassic Park-style huge dangerous undomesticated animals rather than as riding animals--which just makes me think Chocobo.
I'll post more when I get a chance to reread what everyone said. And hey, thanks!
Eberron is my campaign setting of choice, right now (unless its a pickup game that I'm running directly off an adventure) I will only run Eberron. Its the setting I would have created for myself if I was creative enough to make such a cool setting. I love the "wide" magic feel and low level execution.
Some quick clarifications on eberron for those not in the know:
how a Paladin of the Blood of Vol works - In Eberron Paladins and Clerics don't nessesarily get their powers from "the gods"; no body really knows if they exist anyway; they gain their powers through the power of their own faith. A cleric of Boldrei (LG god of Community) may be any alignment without losing their cleric powers unless they begin doubting the power of the faith, which could lead to CE cleric going around using Boldrei's wrath to take out the vagrants and refugees who are "ruining" their community.
This can go the other way too, the LE blood of Vol reveres the power of blood, and is the main religion of the country of Karnnath. Most people in the country are neutral or even good despite practising an evil religion- 99% never encounter an undead creature that the Blood uses as it's champions against the ravages of death. A BoV Paladin would not know about or like the Undead aspects of the religion, but would focus on the power of blood, and the power of Life over Death.
It's not like these would be common characters- rarieties among rareities (there's probably only about 600-800 Paladins total in the entire world of Eberron)
Quote: The magic isn't realistic in its own context, magic as common and easy as it is in Eberron, would lead to communications networks, financial institutions, business and political institutions bigger and more sophisticated than our own.
Well there are the Sivis message stations that act as Defacto Telegraph stations, the Kundarak Banking system which allows instantateous transfer of gold around the continent.
Remember this is a world just coming out of a 100 years constant war- many brilliant people were killed, or focused on the waging of war and not developing the magic that drives the economy.
The world is in an approximate WW1 era level of technology in many respects, but the low population bases due to war losses (the largest city in the world only has 200,000 people in the RAW [though most would say it would be better to multiply that by 10) will make a lot of the political institutions take longer to develop. If Eberron was allowed to develop without another extended war (within Khorvaire, or against Sarlona, ect) it would only take it less than 100 years to develop into a modern magical society much like our own
Quote: ...mentioning specific cool sounding things like "Kalashtar", "the Inspired", "Lords of Dust", "the Lightningrail" and the "Mournland". Sweet! I'm glad they're so cool...so what are they?
Kalashtar and the Inspired: Eberron has it's own planar system (obiting planes, rather than the great wheel) There is one plane called Dal Quor, where a Nightmarish race of Outsiders called the Quori. These beings were/are overwhelmingly evil, but there were a small group of rebels a few thousand years back. These were good or neutral Quori who tried to escape the unescapable plane (it's remote and unreachable by normal means)
Some human monks made contact with these rebels through their dreams, and they agreed to help the good quori by hosting the Quori spirits within themselves, and the Rebels were no longer reachable by the Dreaming Dark leaders of Dal Quor. 13 of the Rebels made it out, but the monks were forever changed. They, and their offspring afterwards shared their bodies with two souls, the soul of a human and that of the quori rebels. These Kalastar gained natural psionic abilities through this amalgam, and have become some of the greatest monks, psions, soul knives and psionic warriors the world has ever seen.
The Evil Quori had reasons to eliminate the Kalashtar, and other reasons to influence the Prime Material, and through dream manipulation, created a continent spanning empire, and a race called empty vessels, humans with sprinkles of elf and fiendish blood, allowing them possess and "Inspire" them. The hallmarks of the Inspired, is subtle manipulations and psionic control.
Lords of Dust - Great Rakshasas and other fiends who secretly manipulate events in the goal of their own power, and to release their great archfiend leaders the Rajahs who were imprisioned millenia ago by an alliance of Dragons and Coutl.
Lightning Rail - Essentially a magic railway system. A project of House Cannith and House Orien and the Elemental Binding Gnomes of Zilargo. A bound Elemental gives it locomotion, Cannith built "conductor stones" give it levitation and Orien Heirs are the only people who can safely control the bound elemental.
Essentially gives a (cool) quick and painless way to get around the main Continent of Khorvaire without needless overland travel.
Mournland - About 100 years before Campaign start, there is one main country in Khorvaire, Galifar. Five regions go to war over the succession of the throne. The event that finally ended the war was the complete and utter destruction of Cyre, the nation that had arguably started the war. No one knows what destroyed the nation, and the region remains a terrible one. "dead-grey" mists cover the land, and natural nor magical healing works there. The dead lay fresh in the battlefields, and creepy undead, aberrations and Warforged Extremists are the only current residents of the newly renamed "Mournland"
I don't have anything against the Eberron setting, per se, but I find that everything Eberron was supposed to have 'added' to the game I already create in my own campaign set in FR. The "cinematic" nature people describe Eberron to contribute, the "pulp" flavor... all these things are added by a good DM. Nothing about the setting itself makes me think I should abandon all the work I've done on FR or buy the books for Eberron. "Magic" is more center stage in Eberron? Come on... FR is nothing but magic... the weave, the shadow weave... gods being involved in practically everything... nothing. but. magic. And Eberron's use of the Warforged, while fun, is just something many of us have been using for a long while -- golems with "enhanced intelligence", etc. So, I'm not an Eberron basher -- to the contrary, more settings that attract more players and interest in RPGs only serve to make more $$ available to all the other games we like, in the end. But I haven't been convinced to leave FR, the setting that comprises a majority of the materials I own. I do find it easy to pilfer from Eberron adventures in Dungeon Mag, though -- no more work than converting a 3rd level adventure, let's say, into a 8th level one.
For the record, magic to make a toaster work is not innovative in my opinion - as I remember it is a kind of high magic described in the DMG as farsical and suitable only for a specific kind of game. Further that kind of magic has a lot of ramifications to communication, trade, etc. not really dealt with. The magic isn't realistic in its own context, magic as common and easy as it is in Eberron, would lead to communications networks, financial institutions, business and political institutions bigger and more sophisticated than our own. Well I don't want to start a rant, but its seems ill thought out...
I think the same can be said of nearly every fantasy campaign world however ... I mean what kind of fortifications do they have in Greyhawk?
Can you show that cannon material has dealt effectivly with the ramifications of magic in the Greyhawk setting?
What does the criminal codes (or equivalent) say about the varous forms of magic-use in different countrys?
So far as I know something as basic as whether casting Charm Person is a crime is rarely covered - and if it is covered and it is a crime then its often not explained what the punishment for the crime is. I guess what I'm saying is that I have yet to really see a world were all the ramifications of magic are truely covered well, I'll give kudo's to Eberron for at least attempting to address the subject.
Hehe I am with aberzombie; can I have two years 8 months; 4 days at noon? No telling how long they will beat a dead horse with a big stick though....
I'll give it a good deal longer if they keep making modules like Murder at Oakbridge and Chimes at Midnight for it. The Voyage of the Golden Dragon looks interesting as well.
I get the feeling that we are going to see something of a divide were if one wants to make a module about going into the Dungeon and killing everything that moves or varous different takes on that theme (stop the Orc invasion, kill the Wizard in his Tower etc.) then the adventure is going to be made for Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms. If on the other hand one wants to make an adventure about something less traditional like a fantasy take on 'Around the World in 80 Days' or a Fantasy Agatha Christie who 'dun it (the butler in the library with the candlestick) then its going to be made for Eberron.
Since I think that both styles of gaming will have their supporters I suspect both will survive just fine.
What does the criminal codes (or equivalent) say about the varous forms of magic-use in different countrys?
So far as I know something as basic as whether casting Charm Person is a crime is rarely covered - and if it is covered and it is a crime then its often not explained what the punishment for the crime is. I guess what I'm saying is that I have yet to really see a world were all the ramifications of magic are truely covered well, I'll give kudo's to Eberron for at least attempting to address the subject.
Now, I don't know if Jeremy is referencing this, but Eberron actually does have laws regarding magic use.
...And no sooner do I say this than I discover I have misplaced my copy of Sharn, City Of Towers. Foot, meet mouth. But I refuse to quit, as this is the first time I've used a quote correctly.Anyhow, I'll paraphrase: any proven account of magic affecting the minds of others is treated as fraud, and is dealt with by a wizard branch of the Watch. Any attack that causes physical damage/harm (chill touch, etc.) is treated as armed assault and will be dealt with accordingly. You can obtain a license to cast certain spells assuming you pass a test showing you intend to uphold the law. Of course, there is very little way to back most of this up outside of a city...
On another note, a quick glance reveals that Jaela Daren is actually only 11, and maintains her power throughout the capital city.
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RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16
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I think that a lot of the animosity over Eberron stems from the fact that many players feel that Eberron is killing Greyhawk. WotC isn’t producing new Greyhawk sourcebooks and they feel that they have been abandoned. I’m not sure that this is really the case. When Greyhawk was at its peak TSR didn’t produce sourcebooks hand over fist for Greyhawk—they made adventure modules. What WotC has really abandoned is the release of modules. To date 3.5 has seen only 5 modules (from WotC), yes 3 of those were Eberron modules but that was a necessity of launching a new setting: WotC had to set the setting’s baseline.
In my opinion Greyhawk is better for not having dozens of new sourcebooks every year. Part of what makes Greyhawk a great setting is that so much of it is a blank canvas (as F2K pointed out he has volume of personally designed NPCs and other materials gather from 26 years of gaming in Greyhawk thats part of Greyhawk's charm). At the other end of that spectrum is the Forgotten Realms where nearly every square inch is highly detailed and full of Epic NPCs who so overshadow the average player character that it’s a wonder that the Realms ever needs another hero.
Eberron (right now) sits somewhere between these two extremes, I really like the setting: It has rich detail, high magic without dependence on luminaries such as Elminster or regular divine intervention to make it so. Most of the high level NPCs have been culled by war leaving \plenty of room for PCs to leave their marks and DMs to personalize the setting.
Magic has not lost its wonder nor is it a replication of technology but rather presented as a logical power in the world and just when characters think magic has become too commonplace there’s an Indiana Jones-esque journey to far away lands and hidden temples where ancient wonders lie waiting to be uncovered.
Every campaign is full of clichés its part of what makes a setting resonate with its audience. Eberron’s audience is not just low attention teens as has been frequently suggested, I am 33 years old and the campaign resonates with me.
If you want to like Eberron (and give it a fair chance) take a closer look, read the material on WotC's website and the Campaign Setting book. Don't just take the word of someone who posts their opinion on a forum, make up your own mind. If you do I think you might just like what you see.
What does the criminal codes (or equivalent) say about the varous forms of magic-use in different countrys?
So far as I know something as basic as whether casting Charm Person is a crime is rarely covered - and if it is covered and it is a crime then its often not explained what the punishment for the crime is. I guess what I'm saying is that I have yet to really see a world were all the ramifications of magic are truely covered well, I'll give kudo's to Eberron for at least attempting to address the subject.
The 2nd Edition Greyhawk product "The Adventure Begins" by Roger E. Moore, published in July 1998 lists as a major crime in the Free City of Greyhawk: Magical interference with the integrity of a person. This crime may be punished by either permanent exile and banishment or mutilation (loss of hand, tongue, eye, etc.).
This is found under an interesting section entitled "Criminal Code of Greyhawk" on page 67. One of the more important sentences is found at the end and reads "Crimes are left somewhat vague to fit the DM's style of play in the GREYHAWK campaign."
I'm a Greyhawk fan. I'm not anti-Realms or anti-Eberron. If people enjoy those settings then more power to them. I've bought Realms material (recently Serpent Kingdoms) to use in Greyhawk. I'm intrigued by Secrets of Xen'drik because it may give me material to use in the area of Greyhawk known as Hepmonaland.
I do want to say that Greyhawk is an important part of D&D's history. It was the first setting. It was the place of the classic adventure modules of the game's heyday. Wizards of the Coast had some very intriguing concept art by Todd Lockwood and Sam Wood for Greyhawk prior to the release of 3rd Edition. I do not know why it wasn't used or why Greyhawk hasn't enjoyed the publication of a campaign setting hardcover with all the bells and whistles and top notch art that Forgotten Realms and Eberron received. I believe that a Greyhawk campaign setting hardcover that was made with the same production values (full color, hefty page count, high talent artists) would sell like proverbial hotcakes. I can't understand WotC's reluctance to make one, but I can understand Greyhawk fans' sense of jealousy because other settings have gotten such a product (even Dragonlance and Ravenloft have received 3rd party support).
I hope Greyhawk remains the core setting. I enjoy the bits and pieces of Greyhawk I've been given in various WotC products (e.g. Tarth Moorda, the warmage college fortress in Complete Arcane). It would be a shame to cast this important part of D&D's history by the wayside.
Thus far I have refused to purchase an Eberron book on general principle. Okay, perhaps funds has a bit to do with it, but I can usually find a few bucks for other game supplements.
I admit that I'm a Greyhawk fanboy. I've played Forgotten Realms and Eberron (I appear to be the lone holdout in my gaming group) as well as the quasi-settings like Dark Sun, Ravenloft and Krynn and of all of them, Eberron is dead last. If I really wanted to take a train out to the dungeon alongside my robot...err, warforged...party-mate there are plenty of other role-playing games that I can play.
There are differences from FR or GH that are most interesting. It is not some Prestige Class or the Magic. In Eberron people are civilized, more or less. It is basically a steampunk setting, not a fantasy setting. And what is more appealing it has an internal logic, which I missed dearly in FR (and I know nearly every FR product) and GH. After I read Eberron I sold all my FR stuff and I'm glad.
There are always people who are nostalgic and it's okay, after over twenty years of GM'ing of dozens of different systems, I still remember Castle Amber and Desert of Desolation fondly. But the truth is, time goes on and the quality of the products has changed for the better. Now I'm not thrilled by black and white, 25 pages settings, with cheesy artwork and maps drawn with a pen, but there was a time when it was best.
So Settings come and go.
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I challenge each of you who claim to hate Eberron and proclaim all of its material to be total crap to state exactly why, EXACTLY why, you dislike it. I'm not judging you here, or trying to "call you out" on your opinion. You certainly have a right to them. I just want to make sure that you all have given fair thought and consideration to this, and to stop all the blatantly negative press that Eberron gets on these boards.
Fair enough. For starters, I will admit that I don't hate EVRYTHING about Eberron. I like the Lords of Dust simply because I was finally glad to see someone give the Rakshasas their due. They were too cool a monster that was too often ignored in other worlds. In fact, I had in mind something similar to the Lord of Dust for a homebrew world at one point, as I'm sure many others did.
I don't like the half-lycanthropes (shifters?) because I'm more of a traditionalist who thinks of lycanthropy as a disease or curse. I never even really liked true lycanthopes all that much to tell the truth.
And I thought I read that Eberron has half-dopplegangers. I don't like that either, because I see it as pointless munchkinism.
As I stated before, I'm more of a traditionalist. I like old-style fantasy. Greyhawk is classic. Forgotten Realms is OK. I don't like the techno-magic feel of Eberron. They had a setting like that but they got rid of it. It was Spelljammer. If they wanted techno magic, why didn't they just bring back Spelljammer.
Finally, I resent that WotC seems to not care about the Greyhawk fans as much as they do about the Eberron and Realms fans. What are their plans for Greyhawk? Why won't they put out a Greyhawk hard cover when there seems to be obvious and vocal support for one? These are questions that some of us would like answered, but WotC isn't talking.
Anyway, that's it. Stick a fork in me, I'm done.
