Hi guys! I was wondering if you can share (and discuss) some of your precious power-game combos. I can begin with these:
1) THE RING OF SPELL STORING + PERSISTENT SPELL TRICK
This trick is designed to use "Personal" spell on others. You can use it at high level, when you can afford (or forge) the 200.000 GP Major Ring of Spell Storing (stores 10 spell levels). You must also have the Extend Spell and Persistent Spell Feat, or, best of all, a Greater Metamagic Rod of Persistent Spell (costs the same as GMRoQuicken Spell, since the modifier to level is the same: +4). Then, just after receiving your spells for the day, you cast the personal Persistent spell into the ring and pass it to another charachter, who casts it. Then repeat the process with other charachters, as desired.
My entire party had costantly the effects of Divine Favor, Divine Power, and Righteous Power! DEVASTATING!
2) THE 2-H LANCE + POWER ATTACK TRICK
The rules state that, if you are on horseback, you CAN use the lance with one hand. Just DON'T: use the lance 2-handed for DMG bonus for high STR and Power Attack, then... Spirited Charge! Take your 2nd level fighter on horseback, with 18 STR, the Spirited Charge and Power Attack Feat, and use the feat. You are TxC +7 (+4 STR, +2 charge, +1 higher ground) and DMG 3d8+30 (tripled from: 1d8 base, +6 11/2 STR, +4 Power Attack).
Have Fun!
3) THE BONUS STACKER ITEM CRAFTER.
The DMG gives guidelines to craft magic items with different types of bonus. So you can have on each PC: a cloack of TS +1 (resistance) (market price 1000 GP); a ring of TS +1 (luck) (2500 GP); a ring of TS =1 (morale) (2500 GP); a robe TS +1 (insight) (2500 GP); an amulet of TS +1 (sacred) (2500 GP). Total: TS +5. Cost: 11000 GP. To have TS +25, you have to spend 275000 GP.
You can use this trick also for CA, DMG, or, best of all, TxC (then you can always use your full Power Attack with 2-H weapons).
4) THE MAGEKILLER COMBOS.
To kill a powerfull spellcaster, you can block his power to cast spell. I suggest:
a) SILENCE (cast on the ground or in the air to negate the save) + WEB, then Magic Missiles from outside the Silence area.
b) SILENCE + GRAPPLE, then other PCs overkill the enemy.
c) ANTIMAGIC FIELD + GRAPPLE, then other PC overkill the enemy. (My party managed to kill Vlaakith with this surprise attack)
d) SILENCE + FORCE FIELD. You can use this to block a caster inside for some time, or you can use it to block him inside with some strong fighter-type.
Every time I see a post like this I can only think one thing: Munchkin.
Every time I see a post like this I can only think one thing: Munchkin.
Yea! And I ask again: other Munchkins out there that want to share their combos?
I don't think I know any real combos considering the game (for me anyways) isn't about making the numbers on your character sheet as high as possible. If I want to play a game where I focus on trying to do max damage as fast as possible, I'll go play Magic. And besides, those aren't really combos. Thats synergy. Using Divine Might, Rightious might at the same time isn't a very complex and intricate thing because all your doing is powering up. The only thing I can think of as a 'combo' in D&D would be a monk's flurry attack. QED.
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Wizards website is probably a better site to post for munchkinisms. Paizo site seems to attract people who like to "play" the game and roleplay, whereas WotC seems to attract the people who want to find the chinks in the rules armor to exploit in order to break a game. I don't enjoy playing a game like that or in a game with someone like that as I feel it takes away from the overall experience of roleplaying and adventuring. To each their own, but I don't think there are many on this board who like to make a "Pun-Pun" out of their character.
as always IMO
FH
Hmmm...my power-game combos are all things I throw at PCs. When I'm playing, I develop a PC around that PC's specific theme...even when that means forgoing obvious advantages (yes, Fake Healer, I'm describing exactly what you suggest: a role- (not roll-) play oriented PC.
As a DM, though...I love encounters with things that cast "grease" in rooms with heavy slopes. I love the combo of a troop of heavy-armored, high-STR (and therefore heavy-bodied) PCs with a rickety, decaying bridge. I love the insidious combination of a pit trap with a gelatinous cube at the bottom. All things a party can surmount, but which go somewhat beyond the norm.
"What, a goblin? Oh, how cute...he has a wand of Grease...let's take him! Chaaar-ohohohh--whooaaaaa!!"
Heh.
I agree w/ Blackdragon & Fake Healer. Posts like this do get me prepared to handle "combos" as a DM though, and remind me how dangerous expanded rules are (i.e. persistent spell) and that often Dispels are more effective than Fireballs.
My players discovered those same mage-killer tricks years ago (w/ a Monk running in w/ Silence on herself from the Cleric). Every mage (or other spellcaster) should be prepared to take on Silence (except the unfortunate Bard, but even they can have a Silent spell or so on a scroll penned by somebody else).
Here's a "combo" to ponder for DMs coming from the Sage ruling this month (or last month if you're a subscriber):
Cleave works w/ opportunity attacks, therefore so does Great Cleave & Combat Reflexes. A caster could cast a cluster of weenies and send them after his own ally, allowing his ally to get that many Cleave attacks vs. the real opponent. The number only limited by Dex & the amount of weenies that came in. Ouch. I made a house rule against them stacking years ago when a Stone Giant fell in one round to a Barbarian w/ a glaive because the giant's Orc allies came in to help. "NO! Stay back! He'll only attack me more if you come to help!" (Made no sense to me.)
Every time I see a post like this I can only think one thing: Munchkin.Yea! And I ask again: other Munchkins out there that want to share their combos?
A good Dm would eat you alive in a game. In my world you would last about as long as a BMW parked in front of a crack house.
Im curious as to how someone holds and uses a lance with 2 hands while on horseback.
I say that the lance is a one handed weapon on horseback, since you only have to "guide" it towards your target--the power comes from the weight of the horse--that's why the damage bonus while charging as well.
Using a lance while not mounted makes it a two handed weapon.
I do agree that it should have been explained better in the rules.
As far as "breaking" a game system and munchkinism--no game system is perfect or could address every possible perversion of the rules in order to turn a fantasy RPG into a much slower version of a computer game with cheat codes.
That's why DM's should and do have the ultimate power to say no. Consider it the ultimate firewall or anti-virus program against those who would be better off playing a computer game with cheat codes.
However, I would not restrict Gorthair or anyone else from using innovative, game mechanic exploiting tactics. I also would no longer make my adventures seem like James Bond movies where the PC's are always given "one last out" and "one more chance" and the villain leaves 007 dangling over a pool of sharks while the rope is gradually lowering him down (all the while forgetting that 007 has a laser beam watch). No, he'd just shoot him in the head.
No....all dungeons would be absolute insurmountable death traps...why would anyone who lives in one or designs one leave an "out" to make it appropriate for 3rd level characters?
All enemies would use the absolute most cruel, most devastating tactics available....why would orcs go out in a patrol of 4-7 orcs when they know that their enemies are likely to take them out. No, they'd patrol in company size formations.
So, game exploitation goes both ways...end result--no fun for either side--lots of dead PC's and no joy adventures.
Paper and pencil RPG's are supposed to be like screenplays that build drama, not like real life where every weakness or inconsistency is exploited in order to WIN!!! Paper & Pencil RPG's aren't about winning, they're about storytelling and fun. That's the fundamental difference between so called munchkins and role-players.
Gamers who enjoy victory too much are not "lesser" gamers or "lesser" persons...they just should be playing something other than paper & pencil RPG'S....lots of boardgames out there where you can revel in your ability to exploit the rules in order to get a one-up on somebody. I think that most "munchkins" don't really care about defeating their character's opponents in the game as much as they care about getting one over on the DM....and that's human nature, isn't it? Since DM's are ueberpowerful, it's human nature to rebel against someone whose power they resent...so the players go off to flip through all the rules and find all the weaknesses like a bunch of ambulance chasing lawyers so they can "fight the power."
Nothing wrong with that, it just works both ways....
Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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Here's a "combo" to ponder for DMs coming from the Sage ruling this month (or last month if you're a subscriber):
Cleave works w/ opportunity attacks, therefore so does Great Cleave & Combat Reflexes. A caster could cast a cluster of weenies and send them after his own ally, allowing his ally to get that many Cleave attacks vs. the real opponent. The number only limited by Dex & the amount of weenies that came in. Ouch. I made a house rule against them stacking years ago when a Stone Giant fell in one round to a Barbarian w/ a glaive because the giant's Orc allies came in to help. "NO! Stay back! He'll only attack me more if you come to help!" (Made no sense to me.)
This combo has actually been around forever. ENWorld used to have endless flamewars about it, usually involving blind kobolds as the attack of opportunity bait.
Combos can be cool and I don't think they are inherently munchkin. If the mechanics of the game are the draw for you, go for it. I would even go so far as to say that being a mechanics oriented "munchkin" and a story oriented "True Role-Player" are not mutually exclusive.
Sadly, I don't have any good ones to contribute other than the really obvious stuff like spiked chain + combat reflexes. But keep em coming and don't feel like your not playing the game right for finding (and liking) them.
A good Dm would eat you alive in a game. In my world you would last about as long as a BMW parked in front of a crack house.Every time I see a post like this I can only think one thing: Munchkin.Yea! And I ask again: other Munchkins out there that want to share their combos?
A lot haters hate out of fear!
Common what does Blackdragon got to fear?A good Dm wouldn' t be afraid of a "Good" power gamer.
power game combos? Bring it on!
so here is a combo:
A sixth level paladin with STR16, CHR 16 weilding a +2 great sword uses full power attack (+12 dam), divine might (+3 dam/ 3rds), and uses smite evil (+6 dam) will do 2d6+27 hp.
so here is a combo:
A sixth level paladin with STR16, CHR 16 weilding a +2 great sword uses full power attack (+12 dam), divine might (+3 dam/ 3rds), and uses smite evil (+6 dam) will do 2d6+27 hp.
From a DM's standpoint I wouldn't have a problem with this at all. It's when people start talking about 200,000gp magic items that I start raising an eyebrow.
...plus, this paladin would be +0 to hit, so what the hell is he going to do the 2d6+27 pts of damage to?
so here is a combo:
A sixth level paladin with STR16, CHR 16 weilding a +2 great sword uses full power attack (+12 dam), divine might (+3 dam/ 3rds), and uses smite evil (+6 dam) will do 2d6+27 hp.
From a DM's standpoint I wouldn't have a problem with this at all. It's when people start talking about 200,000gp magic items that I start raising an eyebrow.
...plus, this paladin would be +0 to hit, so what the hell is he going to do the 2d6+27 pts of damage to?
This defense against the Power Attack breaks down at higher levels when characters take the Shocktrooper feat/combat style and can trade points off of armor class instead of attack bonus. Sure, your AC for the rest of the round is horrible but there may not be anything left to hit you.
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I say that the lance is a one handed weapon on horseback, since you only have to "guide" it towards your target--the power comes from the weight of the horse--that's why the damage bonus while charging as well.
Using a lance while not mounted makes it a two handed weapon.
I do agree that it should have been explained better in the rules.
As far as "breaking" a game system and munchkinism--no game system is perfect or could address every possible perversion of the rules in order to turn a fantasy RPG into a much slower version of a computer game with cheat codes.
That's why DM's should and do have the ultimate power to say no. Consider it the ultimate firewall or anti-virus program against those who would be better off playing a computer game with cheat codes.
However, I would not restrict Gorthair or anyone else from using innovative, game mechanic exploiting tactics. I also would no longer make my adventures seem like James Bond movies where the PC's are always given "one last out" and "one more chance" and the villain leaves 007 dangling over a pool of sharks while the rope is gradually lowering him down (all the while forgetting that 007 has a laser beam watch). No, he'd just shoot him in the head.
No....all dungeons would be absolute insurmountable death traps...why would anyone who lives in one or designs one leave an "out" to make it appropriate for 3rd level characters?
All enemies would use the absolute most cruel, most devastating tactics available....why would orcs go out in a patrol of 4-7 orcs when they know that their enemies are likely to take them out. No, they'd patrol in company size formations.
So, game exploitation goes both ways...end result--no fun for either side--lots of dead PC's and no joy adventures.
Paper and pencil RPG's are supposed to be like screenplays that build drama, not like real life where every weakness or inconsistency is exploited in order to WIN!!! Paper & Pencil RPG's aren't about winning, they're about storytelling and fun. That's...
Well said F2K.
A spiked chain and combat reflexes is not equivilent in rules abuse to the ring of spell storing and persistant spell ridiculousness and that is where someone is no longer playing to be good, but playing to steal enjoyment from the others around the table.
Im curious as to how someone holds and uses a lance with 2 hands while on horseback.
Thats what I told my cavalier when he wanted to try it. He agreed it was to akward to actually help so he dropped it and was more than happy with his triple damage charge.
Every time I see a post like this I can only think one thing: Munchkin.
I agree. On the other hand, I find munchkinism to be highly entertaining.
I'm at the point that I don't worry too much in-game. If a player wants to abandon roleplaying and set out to 'beat' the DM (me) with every little rule and technicality he can find, let him try -- I'll win :)
Nonetheless, I find this thread to be fun and educational. Keep it coming!
Regards all,
Jack
Just say no to munchkins.
A lot haters hate out of fear!
Common what does Blackdragon got to fear?
A good Dm wouldn' t be afraid of a "Good" power gamer.
power game combos? Bring it on!
Yeah, you're damn right it's about fear. Fear of loosing good players while you as a DM has to deal with Munchkin crap. When I DM I taylor the game to the most powerful, highest level character in the game. If I'm dealing with a munchkin, I have to shift the foccus of the game in antisipation of the munchkins behavior. If not, the game becomes a cake walk and nobody but the munchkin has any fun. But by increasing the CR to deal with the munchkin, I have just made it even harder on the good players who now have to fight twice as had because they are unwilling to stoop to the munchkins level instead of roleplaying. Good players get tired of having to sit and wait while the munchkin fights a loosing battle to try hijacking the game. After a while the good players stop showing up.
The last time this happen, myself and one of the other players took the munchkin aside and told him, Everyone is tired of it, knock it off or don't come back. He hasn't played since.IF this was about power gaming, they wouldn't be here on the board cruising for new ways to beat the rules. End of story.
IF this was about power gaming, they wouldn't be here on the board cruising for new ways to beat the rules. End of story.
I'm 100% with Blackdragon; if anyone ever had a need to munchkinize a character, they simply lack the maturity to be in my game and they're welcome to exercise that need at someone else's table, with other munchkins.
I have a Good power gamer in my group...and he's good because he knows how to keep the power game and the multiplayer campaign worlds separate; he plays his munchkinized characters in online arena tournaments, but knows better than to ruin the groups' game night experience by bringing in stat-crunched abberrations into a "natural" game world. He performs vital rules-lawyering and book research skills on my behalf during each game session, with no bias toward the group or players, which saves many minutes each session.
My solution to munchkins is simple and sublime...every NPC and creature in my game gains a single house rule feat:
Anti-munchkin: Grants bonus HPs, as needed, that will prevent any killing attack on the target for that round; the target will be reduced to 1 HP and any excess damage is ignored. Any other attacks by non-munchkins during that round may still be fatal (at the DMs discretion), depriving the munchkin of bragging rights for the kill, but subsequent attacks in the following rounds by the munchkin may still be negated at the DMs discretion, leaving the target at 1 HP, if there is a need for the prolonging of dramatic tension during that round.
Feel free to use this feat as anyone may see fit. ;-)
M
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IF this was about power gaming, they wouldn't be here on the board cruising for new ways to beat the rules. End of story.I'm 100% with Blackdragon; if anyone ever had a need to munchkinize a character, they simply lack the maturity to be in my game and they're welcome to exercise that need at someone else's table, with other munchkins.
I'm 100% with you being 100% with Blackdragon. DOWN WITH THE MUCNHKINS. But I think we non-munchkins need a catchy name as well. Rolekins? Antimunchers? Any ideas?
My solution to munchkins is simple and sublime...every NPC and creature in my game gains a single house rule feat:Anti-munchkin: Grants bonus HPs, as needed, that will prevent any killing attack on the target for that round; the target will be reduced to 1 HP and any excess damage is ignored. Any other attacks by non-munchkins during that round may still be fatal (at the DMs discretion), depriving the munchkin of bragging rights for the kill, but subsequent attacks in the following rounds by the munchkin may still be negated at the DMs discretion, leaving the target at 1 HP, if there is a need for the prolonging of dramatic tension during that round.
Feel free to use this feat as anyone may see fit. ;-)
M
Nice rule. I'll have to show that one to our DM.
I'm 100% with you being 100% with Blackdragon. DOWN WITH THE MUCNHKINS. But I think we non-munchkins need a catchy name as well. Rolekins? Antimunchers? Any ideas?
How about Purists...
*grouchy today*
M
so here is a combo:
A sixth level paladin with STR16, CHR 16 weilding a +2 great sword uses full power attack (+12 dam), divine might (+3 dam/ 3rds), and uses smite evil (+6 dam) will do 2d6+27 hp.
From a DM's standpoint I wouldn't have a problem with this at all. It's when people start talking about 200,000gp magic items that I start raising an eyebrow.
...plus, this paladin would be +0 to hit, so what the hell is he going to do the 2d6+27 pts of damage to?
With a STR of 16 (+3, to hit) & Smite evil (+3 to hit) & a +2 Great sword his attack bonus is +8 for this one attack.
As a DM I treat a smite attack as full action, allowing only a 5' drift move and the smite attack only that round. So, as a player (unless the DM says otherwise) thats how I play it.
So the Paladin can do 2d6+27 dam twice in a fight within 3rds (only 3rds to take advantage of the divine might @ +8 attack bonus. That is on ave. 33hp an attack. Total 66 hp on ave. in two rounds.
A lot haters hate out of fear!
Common what does Blackdragon got to fear?
A good Dm wouldn' t be afraid of a "Good" power gamer.
power game combos? Bring it on!
.... Good players get tired of having to sit and wait while the munchkin fights a loosing battle to try hijacking the game....
The last time this happen, myself and one of the other players took the munchkin aside and told him, Everyone is tired of it, knock it off or don't come back. He hasn't played since.IF this was about power gaming, they wouldn't be here on the board cruising for new ways to beat the rules. End of story.
NOBODY HIJACKS THE GAME I DM, NOBODY!
I also can't stand somebody trying to hijack any game I play in as a PC as well. I have no problem walking away from a game because I don't enjoy the company of one player. I have a big ego and feel if I leave a game I will leave with the majority of good players as well.
I DM a game with a variety of players, some have been playing for a few months one for over 30 yrs. A few would have a great time if we never roll a single d20. Others want to create feats so that thier magic items regenerate charges over time or feats they can use others (NPC) experience to make magic items. Now that is munchkinism and get's a hefty No! you can't do that. As a DM I hold the philosophy that it is our game (i.e Dm and players) and not just my game. So as a DM I try to understand that all are tryng to play out thier own fantasy, and as a DM it is my responsability to balance the needs of all the players fantasy with my own. The Dungeon Master GUide II has a good article dealing with different styles of play and how to balance it all. (To me the best and the only useful article in that book).
On of my favorite things about D&D 3.x, is the whole feats thing. I love to visuallize these feats in action (as well as different spells). So as a DM and Player I am always looking for new combos of feats skills and spells if only to visualize. As A DM I try to find new combos to surprise and challenge my players.
I must admit as A DM I am a battle planner. I like to develop NPC with combos of spells feats and magic items with tacitics to challenge my players. I like the strategy and tacitics of the D&D game, both as a player and DM, so my approach to the game is similar. In college I played with a group that was very strategy & tactics based (they were all competetive weight lifter as well). A DM better know the rules cause these guys all do.
Don't get me wrong, my first love in playing D&D is the story and role playing. As a player I cannot stand a lack of consistency in a campaign, or taverns called "Generic".
I guess my point is that it is a matter of style. Power Gaming even to the point of Munchkinism is just style of play. You don't need to play it. But what I can't stand are bullies.
NOBODY BULLIES ME AROUND!! or others on the play ground when I'm arround. SO if you do't like threads like these, go somewhere else
P>S> no disrespect to Blackdragon or Marc Chin (Love the campaign journal), I have learned much from the wisdom you have shared on these message boards. But I like to debate and today could not let go of the munchkin bashing (But hey maybe you guys like munchkinbashing so bash away, no harm)
I'm 100% with you being 100% with Blackdragon. DOWN WITH THE MUCNHKINS. But I think we non-munchkins need a catchy name as well. Rolekins? Antimunchers? Any ideas?
How about Purists...
LOL :)
Every time I see a post like this I can only think one thing: Munchkin.
It is amusing how quickly the derogitory term "Munchkin" gets thrown into a thread like this. Equally amusing is the notion of coming up with a potentially normative classification for those who consider themselves to be above such typing.
As ever,
ACE
I'm all for good strategy, synergistic combining of feats, etc. However, before you try it on your DM, ask yourself whether it passes the BS test. If you use your lance like a very long, unwieldy baseball bat, yes, you theoretically can steer the horse with your knees (make a ride check, -5 circumstance penalty due to the problems with balance caused by the way you're holding your lance). You also cannot have a shield ready, cannot take the charge damage bonus because that bonus reflects the standard use of the weapon (1 handed, using the pointy end to concentrate the momentum of horse and rider in the tip of the lance and skewer your enemy or push him off the back of his horse). Since you're not using the weapon as designed, you take -4 penalty to hit, and do bludgeoning rather than piercing damage. If you roll a natural one, you either inadvertently unhorse yourself or shiver your arm (can't use sword arm for 1d4 rounds) and have a 50% chance of breaking your lance.
Are you sure you want to try that two-handed horseback charge with the lance?
As for the magic item/feat combo--I don't have the books in front of me, but if you're not using the thing to do what it was designed for, either it won't work, or sooner or later you're going to suffer a magical mishap, and given the power of that particular magic item, it's likely to be a very unpleasant one. (I'm sure you've all seen the "Darwin Awards" e-mails circulating to get an idea of what happens when you misuse modern technologies like vehicles, firearms, etc.--most people who do stupid things with magic items didn't make the Darwin awards because the witnesses to their foolishness were erased from the multiverse along with them. (A visit to Rauxes in the world of Greyhawk will give you an idea of how it works, though).
I won't use the M-word, but just be prepared to suffer the consequences of your foolishness if you try to do something that appears to be allowed by the rules but is not in keeping with the natural laws of the multiverse. And if you fail to subject your tactical cleverness to a rigorous BS test before you try to use them in my game, be prepared to roll up a new 1st level character every session while the rest of your teammates are enjoying the game.
I am very interested in hearing of legitimate, well thought-out combos--but I think it would be better to have a more narrowly focused discussion--for example, "effective feat combinations for finesse fighters" or "how to deal with enemies that have spell resistance" or "how to make the most of your wild shape ability." And some of these topics have been more than adequately covered in the pages of Dragon or on the WotC website's series of articles on how to effectively develop the various character classes.
If you're interested in developing a particular character concept with sound and effective combinations of feats, skills, and tactics, that in my mind is good play. If you're trying to figure out how to game the rules in a way that upsets the carefully balance between different PCs and between party and NPCs/monsters, that is, well . . . others have already accurately characterized that approach to the game in earlier postings.
Back to combos:
True strike + any range touch spell (I don't know why more mages don't do this)
Maximize spell + magic missile for a seventh level wizard does 25 hp damage, no save. ,ice storm average 15 hp, fire trap ave. 17 hp save for 1/2
Enlarge + bull's strength gives a character a +6 to strength or +3 to damage and to hit
Any more combos out there
mages + natural weapons + multi attack = surprise to the rogue trying to sneak up, flank and engage mages in melee.
Enudrance + a raging 1/2 orc barbarian = a lot of blood and souls for Erythnul
I'm all for good strategy, synergistic combining of feats, etc. However, before you try it on your DM, ask yourself whether it passes the BS test.
Me Too!
My approach is strategy and tactics, not beat the DM and break the game. I like to focus on combos and counter combos.
Besides you can't beat the DM. Deities and the very fabric of the multi verse are the play things for the amusment and entertainment of such omni potent beings. Pissing off a DM leads to "You Die!!! No Save!!!" and expulsion from game table and play.
I'm all for good strategy, synergistic combining of feats, etc. However, before you try it on your DM, ask yourself whether it passes the BS test.
That is my approuch strategy and tactics. I would like the focus of such threads to stay that way. I don't want to beat the DM or break the game.
Besides it is bad to Piss off the DM, deities and the multi verse are the play things for the amusment of such omni potnt beings. One could face the DMs "You Die !!! No Save!!" and expulsion from the game table and group.
I'm 100% with you being 100% with Blackdragon. DOWN WITH THE MUCNHKINS. But I think we non-munchkins need a catchy name as well. Rolekins? Antimunchers? Any ideas?
We have a name my friend: Roleplayers. But if you feel the need for something catchy how about Munchkinsbane. The name comes from a goblin that I did up after one of my munchkins...I mean players decided to chase a lone surviving goblin into the forest, leaving her party behind, while she hurled daggers, greek fire and lightning. The lightning missed the goblin...Hit the Treant! Threw a +3 short sword at the goblin...missed...goblin stole the sword...treant beat the piss out of the character. From that point I did the goblin up as Fang Munchkinbane, goblin champion champion of Tyr god of justice (FR). Where ever munchkins rear their head he will be there. I also have him equipped like he stumbled into a dragons hoard. The second time the character saw him, she went over and picked a fight with him in the middle of a city street. Good thing for her that one of her team members had a Rod of Reserrection. I guess it is a fundimental flaw of being a munchkin that they can't learn from their mistakes.
Here is one wildshape+natural spell+war troll. One can stay in this form (at 12th level)pretty much indefinitely and still cast spells. I say this not as an invitation to run with it but as "watch out for this one" to any DMs. There are certain feats/prestige classes combos that are just over the top and should send up red flags. Taking swashbuckler and then taking the duelist PrC is repeative and would be hard to argue in favor of. It would seem as if the character was trying magnify his damage bonus from insightful strike and precise strike.
The best strategies come from situational uses. Using wall spells to funnel enemies into a cone. Using spells to cover escape or cut off reinforcements. A solid fog spell works great in a hallway. We should strive to be creative during play rather than during character creation/advancement.
Sir Kaikillah, I'm afraid that I view Enlarge Person mainly as an offensive spell, actually. Look at it: +2 to Strength is +1 to Attack/Damage, but you get -1 Attack from Large size. You also gain -1 AC. So, in the end, Attack is the same, Damage is +1, and AC is -1. Wow, that's an incredibly weak spell. Good for blocking a hall or something, but otherwise, I'd mainly use it to drain AC from enemies. Or avoid it completely.
Also, while I'm aware of the meaning of "munchkin," I must say I am curious about its origins. Does anyone know? I think this may have been posted on another thread once, but I've forgotten. Please excuse my memory lapse.
Sir Kaikillah, I'm afraid that I view Enlarge Person mainly as an offensive spell, actually. Look at it: +2 to Strength is +1 to Attack/Damage, but you get -1 Attack from Large size. You also gain -1 AC. So, in the end, Attack is the same, Damage is +1, and AC is -1. Wow, that's an incredibly weak spell. Good for blocking a hall or something, but otherwise, I'd mainly use it to drain AC from enemies. Or avoid it completely.
I didn't know you get -1 to hit as a large creature. (interesting,... he..,he..,he..,)
Question? Do you gain 10' reach once you become a large size creature?
Question? if now a large size creature do to an enlarge spell , does a dwarf/ gnome gain a +4 dodge bonus vs. the enlarged creature? Sure the enlarge creature is large size but is not a giant type creature.
Also, while I'm aware of the meaning of "munchkin," I must say I am curious about its origins. Does anyone know? I think this may have been posted on another thread once, but I've forgotten. Please excuse my memory lapse.
My sister had some brightly colored fury dolls called munchkins (or so I recall). They were similar to a care bear.
Sir Kaikillah, I'm afraid that I view Enlarge Person mainly as an offensive spell,.., I'd mainly use it to drain AC from enemies. Or avoid it completely.
Enlarge as an offensive spell to drain Ac or block a hallway or something(no lightning bolt from that hallway), you say? I like it cool.
If I were a gnome it is concievable that I could gain a +4 dodge bonus if I enlarge an opponent? See question I posted above.
Sir Kaikillah, I'm afraid that I view Enlarge Person mainly as an offensive spell, actually. Look at it: +2 to Strength is +1 to Attack/Damage, but you get -1 Attack from Large size. You also gain -1 AC. So, in the end, Attack is the same, Damage is +1, and AC is -1. Wow, that's an incredibly weak spell. Good for blocking a hall or something, but otherwise, I'd mainly use it to drain AC from enemies. Or avoid it completely.I didn't know you get -1 to hit as a large creature. (interesting,... he..,he..,he..,)
Question? Do you gain 10' reach once you become a large size creature?
Question? if now a large size creature do to an enlarge spell , does a dwarf/ gnome gain a +4 dodge bonus vs. the enlarged creature? Sure the enlarge creature is large size but is not a giant type creature.
Also, while I'm aware of the meaning of "munchkin," I must say I am curious about its origins. Does anyone know? I think this may have been posted on another thread once, but I've forgotten. Please excuse my memory lapse.My sister had some brightly colored fury dolls called munchkins (or so I recall). They were similar to a care bear.
Yes.
No.
I'm afraid that I view Enlarge Person mainly as an offensive spell, actually. Look at it: +2 to Strength is +1 to Attack/Damage, but you get -1 Attack from Large size. You also gain -1 AC. So, in the end, Attack is the same, Damage is +1, and AC is -1. Wow, that's an incredibly weak spell. Good for blocking a hall or something, but otherwise, I'd mainly use it to drain AC from enemies. Or avoid it completely.
You're forgetting two things: 10' reach (20' reach with a spiked chain or other reach weapon, 30' reach with a whip dagger), and weapon damage.
Say an ally of yours has Combat Reflexes and lots of Dex; with a reach weapon they now dominate a room (yes, they lose 2 Dex, but this can still be somewhat effective). Say your barbarian buddy with a raging strength of 20 is wielding a greatsword; now he's doing 3d6+9 (average 19 damage) rather than 2d6+7 (average 14). Oh, yeah, and grapples, too. Large creatures get that +4 bonus.
Also take into account tactics: The party's Dwarven Defender can stand in front of said barbarian, preventing the baddy from attacking him, thus negating the AC penalty from enlarge person (or rage for that matter), excepting ranged attacks (and he might get soft cover from those anyway, which would be a net +1 over rage and enlarge person). Characters who use the Intimidate skill get a +4 bonus against Medium creatures when enlarged (+8 versus halflings).
Enlarge Person is also a useful utility spell: A large creature has twice the vertical reach of a medium one (16 feet over 8 feet), which enables them to reach ledges or items that might be impossible for a medium creature to get to. A large creature also weighs more, which can be handy (or not) in some situations.
A final thing to take note of is the duration of the spell. At a minute per caster level, that +1 or +2 damage (plus increased weapon damage, and depending on what modifier you get to when two-handing a weapon) can seriously add up.
I won't use the M-word, but just be prepared to suffer the consequences of your foolishness if you try to do something that appears to be allowed by the rules but is not in keeping with the natural laws of the multiverse. And if...
Wow. Coolest post EVER.
(I wish to add Peruhain of Brithondy in my team in the "Pick your Six" thread.)
Ultradan
A combo I just though of (requires the teamwork of a cleric and wizard) acid fog surrounded by a blade barrier.
If you have fun playing as a munchkin, fine. Go and have fun. But you end up being a pain if you are with people who do not enjoy the game as you do. On these boards there are very few munchkins and as such this is probably not your place
My sister had some brightly colored fury dolls called munchkins (or so I recall). They were similar to a care bear.
Methinks you're thinking of the "moncheechee" dolls. Can't remember the spelling, but that's how it was pronounced.
Good point, Thanis. I had just looked over the spell the other day, and I thought it said that the weapon did NOT gain increased damage (which didn't make sense, but I figured it was for game balance or something). However, it does, and the reach is there, and you get +1 to damage from the Str, the attack remains unchanged, and you get -1 to AC. A much better spell now that my facts are straight! :)
Oh, and, no, you don't get the bonuses agaisnt giants against any large creature, including those affected by this spell. Their stat black actually has to declare them to be of the "giant" creature type- such as an ogre (Large giant). However, a horse is also large, but is not a giant (Large animal in this case). So, while it was a good observation, you do not get the bonuses.
Methinks you're thinking of the "moncheechee" dolls. Can't remember the spelling, but that's how it was pronounced.
My sister had some brightly colored fury dolls called munchkins (or so I recall). They were similar to a care bear.
Weren't "moncheechee" dolls just little brown monkey dolls which you could stick their thumbs in their mouths?
Remember the jingle? - "Moncheechee, moncheechee, they're so soft and cu-del-ly...la-la-la, la-la-la!"
Ultradan
PS- no disrespect to Blackdragon or Marc Chin (Love the campaign journal), I have learned much from the wisdom you have shared on these message boards. But I like to debate and today could not let go of the munchkin bashing (But hey maybe you guys like munchkinbashing so bash away, no harm)
I'm not bashing per se, more like indicating that power gamers should play amongst themselves and not disrupt "normal" roleplay campaign groups with their particular brand of gaming.
(puts on Psychologist hat)
There's no denying that today's generation games with a video game mentality of 'play, power up, play more, power up again, play more, power up again, etc.' towards building an undefeatable platform that is qualified to handle the BBEG at the end of the "level"; the whole issue of power gaming is that this style of play contrasts with the classic role-play approach of older gamers and has been empowered by the 3.x rules - which, to the detriment of some and the joy of others, was designed to compliment this style of play.
I would wager that those who object to the 3.x rules system and those who love it will likely skew along age lines to some degree.
A challenge for any DM would be to mix these styles of play and avoid issues erupting between players; some do, some don't, some cannot. The only difference between DMs on this matter is whether or not they will, or want to, try.
BTW - Thanks Sir Kaikillah, for the kudos on the third journal; I was beginning to think that no one was reading them, due to lack of other posts on the thread. I was about to stop writing them, but I'll keep them up, just for you ;-)
How about Purists...
LOL :)
:-P
M
Am I alone in loathing the fact that the term "character build" has become part of the vernacular? Most of my players pick up skills and feats from ideas in the game or from how they start to envision their characters, not how many classes/PrC abilities will stack when they attack X. Sigh . . .
But, I've been gaming since 1986, and I must say, I love 3.5 as a ruleset. Its just a shame that those elements that do play into "CRPG" type roleplaying are taken advantage of in many ways.
As others have said, if you have fun "powergaming" at home with your buddies, more power to you. But as you get older, sitting around with friends telling a collective story gets to be much more fun than trying to see how many round you can kill the biggest CR monster in. And if that is you D&D group, as you get older you are less likely to keep playing and just give it up to play video games, since its easier to do than organizing a group.
But maybe a few of you will start to like the tale, the collective stories, and stay with us old fogies. That would be great. Eventually you might even learn that a character dying isn't "teh suck" it actually gives you one more story to tell about how your fighter, that had been through battles with scores of orcs, trolls, and giants, fell to a lowly kobold's trap.
I'm not bashing per se, more like indicating that power gamers should play amongst themselves and not disrupt "normal" roleplay campaign groups with their particular brand of gaming...
...the whole issue of power gaming is that this style of play contrasts with the classic role-play approach of older gamers and has been empowered by the 3.x rules - which, to the detriment of some and the joy of others, was designed to compliment this style of play....
I agree with Marc almost 100%... but 'classic play' and older gamers (in my experience) are as guilty of power-gaming and munchkinism as anyone else -- (remember cavaliers from Unearthed Arcana?
IMHO WotC recognized this and cleverly designed 3/e to facilitate such play.
Regards,
Jack
older gamer :)
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Bella Sara Charter Superscriber
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I would wager that those who object to the 3.x rules system and those who love it will likely skew along age lines to some degree.
I doubt it. The vast majority of D&D players are in their late 20's and 30's (or 40's...are any of you in your 50's?). There isn't a lot of fresh blood coming in because D&D competes with (and loses against) video games for the attention of teens. It's not like there is some old timer/youngster schism - there isn't really a large youngster population for a schism to exist.
Furthermore, I and all the members of my group have been playing since the 80's, and we love the 3e ruleset. The only anecdotal evidence I have that there is a correlation between age and preference for the 3e rules is when it gets asserted in a thread like this in order to shame people into playing the One True Way.
BLASPHEMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Scout + Dervish
Skirmish says that if you move at least five feet in a round you deal extra damage and get an AC bonus
Thousand blades ability grants you haste...
Actually, one of the people I'm DMing came up with this. He had the Complete adventurer for like an hour and thought of this combo...
I'm a bit frightened