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Ok...so I've been tooling around trying to figure out a good way to make a character who specializes in beating people to death with a shield.
Brawler seemed like one of the more solid choices for what I had in mind, so I started messing around with some build options, and I ran into some strangeness which I can't seem to wrap my mind around.
Namely the interaction between Close Weapon Mastery and a spiked shield with the bashing enchantment on it.
So the weapon of choice for this character is a +2 Bashing Mithral Heavy Steel Shield with a reinforcing shield boss and shield spikes.
Close Weapon Mastery makes the base damage for the shield the same as my brawler level -4. If I wear a Monk's Robe that balances out to Brawler level +1.
Shield spikes shift the base damage up 1 size category, the Bashing shield enchantment shifts the damage up 2 size categories.
What kind of interaction is there between all these things? Which ones are factored first, what stacks, what doesn't, etc?
HeroLab is telling me my shield should be doing 4d8+27 damage at level 12, but it isn't telling me how it came to that conclusion, and I am very dubious of that number.
I am guessing it is starting with the 2d6 brawler damage, then applying shield spikes to shift it up a category, then applying Bashing to shift it up 2 more categories...according to the chart for dice progression under Enlarge Person that should only push it up to 3d8...no idea how HeroLab is getting 4d8.
Is that even how these are supposed to interact? Do shield spikes and bashing stack? Should either of them be applied to the CWM dice?
Thoughts?
Both Close Weapon Mastery and Bashing are separate features, and as such should be treated in that manner.
Bashing won't stack with Shield Spikes, and Close Weapon Mastery is increased based on your Unarmed Strike damage level +1 because of your Monk's Robes.
So, assuming 4D8 is possible, you'd have to be starting at 1D10 (minimum 7th level), then getting the Bashing property, raising it to 3D8, then Enlarging to 4D8.
**EDIT** At 12th level, you should be doing 6D6 damage plus modifiers, not 4D8, assuming Bashing and Monk's Robes.
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Here is a threat discussing Close Weapon Mastery and Bashing.
Go to here.
That thread contains some rather heated debate over how these all interact, but does not contain any official rulings. There is no ruling on it in either the FAQ or Errata for the ACG either.
People seem very split on how it should work, the basic arguments I was seeing boil down to this:
Group 1 says: Bashing is applied to the weapon first, then if Close Weapon Mastery gives you better damage you can choose that instead...which basically makes bashing worthless to a Brawler.
According to group 1, a heavy steel bashing shield would do 1d8 damage, or you could choose to use the unarmed damage appropriate to your brawler level (in this case 2d6)
Group 2 says: Close Weapon Mastery changes the weapon damage first, then all enhancements are applied. Which can lead to some pretty sizable damage with a shield bash.
According to group 2, a heavy steel bashing shield would do the brawlers unarmed damage (2d6 in the case) then apply Bashing (2d6 upgrades to 3d6 if I am reading the enlarge charts correctly)
Have any devs or anything every chimed in anywhere on this debate?
Possibly off topic, but why is everyone using a heavy shield when this question comes up? What, do you just like that -2 penalty to attack rolls so much that your not willing to let it go and use a light offhand weapon?
Your replacing the base damage anyways. The +1 AC is just not worth -2 to hit.
That's a whole different thread we had roughly a month ago. Since it's not totally clear whether those penalties apply.
Brawlers are proficient with all close weapons, which shields always are. They have proficiency.
But not Throwing Shields.
According to group 2, a heavy steel bashing shield would do the brawlers unarmed damage (2d6 in the case) then apply Bashing (2d6 upgrades to 3d6 if I am reading the enlarge charts correctly)
It would upgrade to 4D6, not 3D6, and Enlarge would make it 6D6.
Group 1 is how I run Sacred Weapon, but I'd run this as Group 2 since the mechanics for Close Weapon Mastery appear to function differently.
If it's for PFS, I'd suggest you prepare for the worst and just take your lumps. Just note that weapon damage dice cease to be a major factor by ~7th level.
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'Worst' case scenario would be I am doing greatsword damage on 5+ attacks per round...(2d6+30ish or 3d6 enlarged)
'Best' case would be I am doing damage normally limited to things like vital strike on 5+ attacks per round.(4d6+30ish, or 6d6 enlarged)
It comes down to a difference of ~7 points of damage per hit, or 35 DPR. Not a huge difference when you are looking at ~185 DPR for the 'worst case' scenario. (Haste/Enlarge skew those numbers a bit further apart, but it's still pretty respectable damage even with the conservative ruling)
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With the Monk's original 'increased unarmed strike damage' ability the size category of the character and the weapon were perforce the same... a Medium monk always made Medium unarmed strikes.
When that increased damage ability was expanded to options allowing manufactured weapons it seems like no thought was given to the potential disconnect that introduced between the character and weapon sizes.
Many GMs go 'strictly literal' and thus continue to base damage on the size of the character (as it has been stated all the way back to the monk unarmed strike)... making shield spikes, bashing, Large size shields, and so forth irrelevant. All such adjustments would get replaced by Close Weapon Mastery damage based on the size of the character.
GMs who prefer logical and/or consistent rules interpretation instead give greater weapon damage based on weapon size.
Personally, the 'character size' argument always makes me imagine Brawlers, Warpriests, and others running around doing massive amounts of damage with miniaturized weapons (e.g. here is my little cold iron greatsword for killing fey, and this is my little silver greatsword for lycanthropes, and...). Greatly reduced cost... possible TWF with normally two-handed weapons... same weapon damage.
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Personally, the 'character size' argument always makes me imagine Brawlers, Warpriests, and others running around doing massive amounts of damage with miniaturized weapons (e.g. here is my little cold iron greatsword for killing fey, and this is my little silver greatsword for lycanthropes, and...). Greatly reduced cost... possible TWF with normally two-handed weapons... same weapon damage.
Monks and Brawlers unarmed strikes already count as cold iron and silver for DR purposes by the time their damage would get high enough to make those kinds of shenanigans worth anything. Carrying around small sized weapons would only end up giving them negatives to hit from using improperly sized weapons, and they wouldn't be able to flurry with most of them.