I desperatly wan't to switch my campaigns to point buy system but I can't seem to come to terms with it.
Currently we use a system of Roll 3d6 reroll the lowest and use the best out of three sets. This produces VERY powerful characters that (although I've found a way to handle this in my world I still don't like it) excel in everything easily, except... the one guy who only gets average stats, or worse yet LESS than average sets. Since I have to amp up the power on my monsters, traps, ect. This poor guy always ends up depressed that his character can't contribute and just waits until his character dies to try his luck again. I HATE that both for the player and for the integrity of my world.
However I do not want to use point buy because I don't want every fighter to become, a brutish idiotic hulk, and every wizard to be a brilliant skinny pansy with no common sense or social skills. And I don't think I can ask the players to add point's in near worthless attributes just so I have a better feeling about the "flavour" of my campaign.
I've had an idea that combines a point buy with a rolling. A modified point buy that allows stats to min at 7 and max out at 14 then roll a d4 and add it to their total but I stiil can't decide.
If you think you can help please share because this is driving me more crazy than normal.
Also I'm sorry about all the threads If been throwing out recently but I have only been playing for a few years and just found out about this site and it has blown my mind how much all of your ideas have added more to my campaign in such a short amount of time. I deeply appreciate the help.
Use the elite array. It is the score set they use for the books, and it makes good characters, but balanced ones.
The scores of the array are: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10 and 8. It also makes some guys a little flawed.
I usually give those, and then allow 1 point to be added to any score. It makes guys good at what they do, but you don't get the aberration the point buys make: Fighters with 18s in Str and Con and 8s in Cha and Wis and Int. If you do use the poitn buy, and someone does that, stick it to em. Use alot fo skill rolls and interaction with NPCS.
I’ve never cared much for the point buy system, for all the reasons you listed. We have one guy in our gaming group who, when he DM’s, uses this system. If you look at all our stats sheets, they all seem pretty much the same; each has one or two good stats, followed by a bunch of 10’s.
Me, I like a little more variety. What I have my players do is roll 4d6 six times, and one of the six numbers must be at least 15. If the player is unable to roll a 15, he makes another set of six rolls. This way, the player will have at least one decent stat, and if lucky, possibly a few. Also, it adds the potential of having a low ability score or two, which can really add to the gaming experience if the player works with it instead of lamenting over the fact that he has a low ability score. I’ve found that it can certainly add more flavor to the character.
I occasionally (like when I want players to make characters up ahead of time but can't witness their rolls) use a default array/point system hybrid.
The system gives the characters the default array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, and 8) and then I usually give the players three more points to add anywhere they choose.
This allows the player who really wants an 18 to have one and those who don't like the penalty (the 8) to buy it off. Depending on my mood I change the number of points and if I feel like some randomness we add 1d4 points.
The system gives slightly better than average scores (I believe the 3 points is still within one standard deviation on the bell shaped curve) and I know what the characters are basically capable of doing before we sit at the table.
It also has the benifit of all players having equal footing (I have one of those players who can never roll good and one who always rolls fives and sixes) and breaks up the monotony of a flat default array system.
Here's what I am dealing with right now specifically.
The melee fighter 8th lvl Human Bar Fighter mix that uses a +1trident and net. After he nets his foes steps forward and delivers a full attack to the enemy (he can do this due to a weapon style feat from the CW) that nails the entangled foe. then he drops the rope line and starts to use the trident two handed
He has a stength and con of 18 wtih power attack, and weapon specialization
His attck bonus +8BAB+1Weap focus,+6str(two handed),and +1 enhancement. total of +16/+11
Then he rages, and the bard uses Inspire courage (+2) and Haste on the fighter.
His base attack bonus is now 8bab+9from str,+1 Weapon focus, +1 enhancement,+1 haste, and +2 bardic music. Now he has a +22/+22/+17 more than enough to miss most standard CR9 creatures only by rolling a natural one (we use that rule). 90% of the time he can drain his entire BAB bounus with power attack and not worry about missing with his +14/+14/+9 attack, a move he announces by announcing "Double Jeapordy". Any attack he lands (and most of the time they do) deals 1d8 +2 (specialization)+2 bardic music +9(str)+1 enhancement and +16 (power attck) a grand total of 1d8 +30! PER attack! THATS OVER 100 DAMAGE IF HE HITS WITH ALL OF THEM AND I $hit my pants every time he rolls a 20!
He DECIMATES anything I send at him and sending creature after creature that he can't fight well (which doesn't accomplish much as his teamates are also fairly impressive) just to make sure the fight lasts longer than two rounds seems like a poor balancing factor. They can handle extreamly powerful creatures for their lvl and are advancing through lvls rapidly. I can't blame the players at all because they are all (for the most part) good role players and they are using highly effective tactics and teamwork to overcome enemies but their unsupassable power all seems to stem from these crazy high abilities. I don't feel comfortable "cropping" a players stats, but I need some way to keep them from running over every challange I throw at them.
By the same wrote I love the flavorful characters that the rolling has produced The bard enededup with really solid dex and str and con (18 In cha of couse) and is a great charater that never shies awary from a brawl. I think if we used a point buy he wouldn't have these and his "flavorful" character would fade into the normalcy of every NPC bard.
It might be some flaw I have as a DM but if so I can't pinpoint it and I know even less of how to fix the problem
And again (and in advance) thanks
That sounds more like an encounter problem. Often times when DMs tell me they have this problem, there is a few flaws in the way the encounter is designed:
1. Not using enough different monsters. Often times, DMs use the same few monsters all the time, Orcs, trolls, etc. Instead of using the same old guys, use other monsters with strange abilities that are not easily beat right up front.
2. Not using terrain/interference. When the fight is in a big, open area, the PCs like this have an advantage. Bad terrain, cover,innocent bystanders, etc. can trip them up.
3. Too straight forward. Instead of having a group of baddies just blitz the group straight on, have them sneak up; or have waves of guys arrive; or have them fight from good positions, or use area effects. Have spell and psi using monsters hang back and beefy DR having monsters absorb hits for them.
4. Not customizing monsters. Remember, baddies can have feats and class levels, too. Template and class them up or give them feats that lets them use similar stacking strategies. The PCs shoudl have to adapt to monster tactics as surely as the bad guys too.
For your particular issue, I suggest:
Guys who can easily break the net, or avoid it. I know it sounds bad to target one PC, but if you don't the players will get bored from a lack of challenge. Furthermore, if there are recurring villains, they might actually set them up with this in mind. Don't overuse this: a player shoudl feel challenged, not punished. Either way, the guy should not lie in the net while he hacks away, but try to escape. You might also rule he can't use the whole tactic while raging, since it requires concentration.
Add a singing/sound using guy the bard needs to countersong- that will take out the inspire ability, and give him a way to use other abilities.
Use creatures with DR. He can hit them 5 times if he wants, but each hit does less damage.
Use encounters where the solution is not always fighting. Use negotioation, problem solving, etc.
Guys with ranged attacks, or who can sunder his weapon.
Also, how is he getting +16 with a power attack?
I hope that helps.
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This is not a stat flaw, it is a min/max flaw
you need to study his character sheet and find a weakness, humble him a few times and he will balance out
You can humble this guy in several ways:
Try an enemy with a disarm build, have him pull the trident out of his hand, then teach him a a good lesson while he sits unarmed.
What are his saving throws? hit with a strength tap poison?
Monsters which need better than +1 to hit it, or has dmg reduction
Spells at a distance or archers, archer can humble a melee fighter quickly
silence on the bard
An invisable or hidden rogue
Just build a nice NPC to take him down a notch
Put him in a situation where he cannot win, I know it is being kind of a prick, but thats how you have to deal with toons like those.
I had a guy I played with awhile who was great at making these toons that could dish out a ton of Dmg, I (Dming) and the other players were getting sick of it so I ran games more based on skills, or working with the other pc's abilities. he got board and made a new more down to earth character and games went back to normal.
Luke: how is he getting a 16 from counter attack? (sorry tried to quote you but something whent wrong)
If you are using a two handed weapon then you gain 2 points to damage with every point of BAB you sacrifice
Also I set him up for a dual with a guy that used a whip, had improved disarm, and had the Elusive target feat (CW) that allowed him to negat any damage from power attack. His Attack bonus was strong enough that he ended up ripping the whip from his hands and to humiliate his opponant (who was one of those royal prick snotty types) He meerly pointed at the whip and allowed him to pick it back up before wailing on him.
I probaly should try a more diverse battle plan (they were in an arena combat sport until just recently but the scene was planned to change very abruptly). But DR Although, it works, is'nt fullproof because he has such a high overkill rate that even the reduced dam per round seems to bring them down faster than they should.
In the arena their was a Wiz/Bar/Rage Mage (CW) that polymorphed himself into a seven headed Hydra and then raged. His bard companion whent invisable and healed him/ buffed him every turn. One Crit and the hydra was toast before he was three rounds into the match.
I usually give those, and then allow 1 point to be added to any score. It makes guys good at what they do, but you don't get the aberration the point buys make: Fighters with 18s in Str and Con and 8s in Cha and Wis and Int. If you do use the poitn buy, and someone does that, stick it to em. Use alot fo skill rolls and interaction with NPCS.
Got to be careful with that. If you manage to make it so that the PCs can't complete the adventure effectivly because they can't follow the bad guys trail or read the important scroll or what not and your whole game comes to a grinding halt while all your players start to fidget and look bored you don't win...
I’ve never cared much for the point buy system, for all the reasons you listed. We have one guy in our gaming group who, when he DM’s, uses this system. If you look at all our stats sheets, they all seem pretty much the same; each has one or two good stats, followed by a bunch of 10’s.
Me, I like a little more variety. What I have my players do is roll 4d6 six times, and one of the six numbers must be at least 15. If the player is unable to roll a 15, he makes another set of six rolls. This way, the player will have at least one decent stat, and if lucky, possibly a few. Also, it adds the potential of having a low ability score or two, which can really add to the gaming experience if the player works with it instead of lamenting over the fact that he has a low ability score. I’ve found that it can certainly add more flavor to the character.
Weak point with this system is your players are going to have a huge range of stats. Its quite possible to have a player with a fighter with great strength, dextarity and Constitution while player number two manages to get nothing but a 15 strength. They are both fighters but one player gets to have fun while the other is constantly reminded that his character sucks.
He DECIMATES anything I send at him and sending creature after creature that he can't fight well (which doesn't accomplish much as his teamates are also fairly impressive) just to make sure the fight lasts longer than two rounds seems like a poor balancing factor. They can handle extreamly powerful creatures for their lvl and are advancing through lvls rapidly. I can't blame the players at all because they are all (for the most part) good role players and they are using highly effective tactics and teamwork to overcome enemies but their unsupassable power all seems to stem from these crazy high abilities. I don't feel comfortable "cropping" a players stats, but I need some way to keep them from running over every...
I hit this problem as well. That said your players love having these awsome characters. So its really a lot more exciting a game from their perspective. That said just sending ever more powerful CR monsters at them does nothing but give them extra experience rapidly gaining them levels.
My solution is in the monsters hps. Its one of the few variables that the DM has a lot of control over. Use something other then average hps for your monsters. Hell if your players are really overpowered give all monsters maximium hps.
The other benifit I found was creating a detailed world in which prestige classes were world specific and coame with varous backgrounds. Essentially getting it so your players can't cherry pick through all the Complete Books making some crazy character combo whole still allowing a lot of choices is the goal.
That sounds more like an encounter problem. Often times when DMs tell me they have this problem, there is a few flaws in the way the encounter is designed:
1. Not using enough different monsters...
The thing is if every encounter (or even just all important encounters) occure with creatures that are good at countering net wielding fighters its going to start feeling really contrived in a hurry. Sure every so often having such an encounter will seem fine and sure spruce things up, making all of them with an anti-net emphasis seems over the top.
On the original question, why don't you make them roll the stats using a method that doesn't produce really high ones too often, but allow them to roll up a new set if the total of their ability modifiers is too low? Set the cutoff a bit below whatever the characters you think are balanced have.
This can work after a fashion - but keep in mind that every time they roll those dice again because their stats were too low is another chance for the dice to suddenly go 'hot' and the player to, in your face, roll 17, 17, 15, 12, 16, 12. I've seen a player do just that...and this both unbalances the campaign by introducing a super character and also immediatly makes pretty much every other player into supporting caste for the messiah who just showed up.
So the bottom line is simply raising the required bar does not really fix the problem - it really does, on average, lead to more powerful characters - since they throw more bad ones away and it does nothing to counter the player who hits a hot streak.
Contributor
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I'm going to address a bunch of points in one post.
First, I used to never use point buy, because I liked having characters with random elements. Now I use point buy pretty much exclusively. We tried lots of ways to make random characters balanced to each other, but always eneded up with at least one ridiculously good character and sometimes our efforts to prevent any really bad characters failed too. In the long run, balance between player characters is more important than overall power level; as a DM, you can always adjust.
On that note, if you have a party with very good stats, you are completely justified in reducing their experience award. An extra +5 overall in stat bonuses is worth at least as much as a level. I did the math once, but I don't remember the exact result. Let's look at a standard array fighter: S 15 D14 C 13 I 12 W 10 Ch 8. Compare that to a fighter with S 17 D 16 C 15 I 14 W 12 Ch 8. Lets assume they are fifth level. The second fighter gets an extra +1 to hit and damage, +5 hp, +5 skill points (as well as +1 on any skills except charisma based skills), +1 to all saves, +1 to AC... sounds like a level worth of improvements. The second character also has access to more feats (like the whole combat expertise chain).So, when you are giving out experience, you can award the second character experience as though they were a level higher. I wouldn't actually change their ECL or number of XP needed to go up, just the reward.
As for dealing with your particular fighter, there are alot of things you can and should be doing. First off, I would not allow a net to be used in conjunction with a weapon being used two-handed. Even after being thrown, the user must control the net with a rope. If they let go, the net comes loose. Even if the rope is attached to the wrist, it puts pressure that makes the left hand inneffective.
Also, I think you've miscalaculated his attack bonus. If his strength is 18, he gets +4 to hit for strength, not +6. The 1.5x bonus for two-handed weapon use (even if you allow it) only applies to damage, not to attack. Not a huge difference, but his power attack ends up +11 +11 +6 doing d8+19 damage. Much less of a guarantee, and your fighter will probably risk less against well-armoured foes.
Second, you need to hit him with will-based spells. Big fighters are almost always more susceptible to these,a nd some of them are devastating when used on them. Tasha's hideous laughter is only second level, or first for a bard. Hold person and command are first. Confusion is brutal; how happy will the players be when that fighter starts attacking them? I played in a game wherein our two front line fighters almost took out our whole party while a couple of umber hulks stood around and watched. All of these spells have higher level versions, too.
Using these spells is not punishing the player or singling him out. It is simply good tactics that an enemy spellcaster should and would use. As a player, I often try to use spells that the target will have a poor save for. Npc spellcasters should do the same.
I also agree with the previous suggestions about mixing up monsters in general, and throwing in terrain and other tactical considerations. Use more ranged attackers, and throw in a damage soaker to slow the fighter down. Put archers on balconies, and use web or entangle on the ground to slow down attackers. These are all solid tactics that will hinder your fighter, but aren't so crass as to target his particular tactic.
If you need more ideas for how to deal with this guy, try this. Make an opponent who uses the same technique, and make him a level or two higher than the party. Give him some low-level support troops and unleash him on the PCs. See how they deal with him. Now you can use their strategy against them. This is a little more hokey, but it's easy to justify. The evil twin could be from the same gladiatorial school as the PC. Maybe it was him who even tayght your hero his technique. Of course, he have other students, and some of them are getting pretty good at countering his techniques, just as your PC will be.
Well, I was going to say more but this post is long enough. Good luck with it!
He has a stength and con of 18 wtih power attack, and weapon specializationHis attck bonus +8BAB+1Weap focus,+6str(two handed),and +1 enhancement. total of +16/+11
Then he rages, and the bard uses Inspire courage (+2) and Haste on the fighter.
His base attack bonus is now 8bab+9from str,+1 Weapon focus, +1 enhancement,+1 haste, and +2 bardic music.
Well, the first thing I notice about this is the fact that wielding a weapon two handed only applies 1.5 X STR modifier to DAMAGE, not to the attack bonus as well. I don't know if this was just a sort of typo or if you misunderstood the rules for using a weapon two-handed, which is just a simple mistake. Correcting this would lower the fighter's attack bonus by 2 points normally, and by 3 while raging. That can make all the difference in a serious battle. Beyond that... the advice given so far on this thread is all good. You've got a damage-dealing monster of a fighter (which is what any high-STR meleeist should be), and you'll have to challenge him by going after his weaknesses from time to time. I favor confronting him with a highly mobile archer-build character, possibly accompanied by a spellcaster or with spellcasting levels of his own. At their level they could face a high-level Arcane Archer, who could really ruin his day with nothing but a combination of an Expeditious Retreat spell and judicious use of Shot on the Run.
Thanks guys I HAVE actually been miscaculating his attck bonus it IS higher than it should be and that will help out a lot. (I can't believe how long we've been doing that in our group)
Secondly I will implement much more terrain into my enconters, traps (which I love but hsve not been using as much as normal), environmental hazards, enenmy advantages, and cover and concealment will now be used to the extent that I should have been.
I will let the fighter continue to do what he does best but place more emphasis on resilient monsters and enemy tactics, so It stops behing a matter of him waltzing up to everything and dispatching them.
However I still want a system that produces less than "Messiah" strength characters than dwarf the rest of the party, while still keeping some uniqueness to the characters.
The suggestions here are something I will have to think about. Unfortunately I doubt there is a way to balance the two the way I wan't. I can't have it both ways it would seem. So I'll just have to bite the bullet and choose one and see how it plays out.
Thanks agian all.... Later
On the topic of stats. Use Point Buy at a specific number and create a dozen or so 'stat-sets' and let the players choose one. Have several average balenced ones and a few with a big stat or two. Let the players assign the scores how they like but at least this way your limiting that likelyhood that you'll have a 18, 18, 10, 10, 8, 8 type character (36pt buy btw). Alternatly as you can see a power-monger character like this is gonna have flaws stat wise and it balences out in the end most of the time. this is an exploit that as a GM you should use. 36pt buy will give you 14's across the board average.
On the topic of ways to counter the effectiveness of the melee beast and challenge the party as a whole in combat.
some things to consider... an entangled target hit with a net is only slightly easier to hit due to the penalty to dex it suffers. a -4 dex penalty reduces a targets AC by 2. A Net has a maximum range of 10ft and takes 2 rounds to fold it again once its been thrown or the thrower suffers a -4 penalty to hit with it. Its only effective against creatures within 1 size catagory of the thrower as well..
some factors that mitigate this build.
* Tiny and Huge opponents cant be caught in the net of a Medium sized creature.
* A Raging character is NOT going to be able to fold a net
* creatures with a 10ft reach will be able to make a AoO against thee thrower due to the nets maximum range. Reach can be achieved with Longswears or similar weapons or large creatures with reach.
* Nets have 5 HP and unless they are somehow made of metal will not have a high hardness rating and thus are easily sundered or destroyed by creatures that have damaging aura's or body secretions
* As a thrown weapon it counts as a ranged attack which can be countered with the deflect arrow feat.
Beyond that.. the bonus to hit gained from netting a target (due to their dex penalty) and the penalty for the netted creature to attack (-2) and limit on its movement are otherwise not that significant. the dex penalty is no better than the flanking the target.
That being said... Other ways to mitigate just how unstopable the fighter is include the using some of the following ideas.
* Swarms. A melee beast like this is virtually helpless against a swarm as they are unable to do damage to them in most cases.
* Illusions including Mirror Image, Blur/Displacement or simple fictional enemy's will slow down a melee monsters.
* Instead of a disarming build a tripping build might be a better adversary. sickem with a pack of wolves (Worgs CR2, Dire Wolves CR3 or Winter CR5).
* Incorporeal creatures with a miss percentage slows down brutes
* Numerous Enemies (does he have great cleave?). He can only kill so many at once. Equiped with reach or ranged weapons. Give them organization benefits such as feats that work while in a formation and Aid Other Actions to improve the groups attack or defensive modifiers.
Thats just to name a few that I think havent already been mentioned and are not heavily reliant of magic (many creatures have built in displacement or blur effects). These should go a long way in slowing down parties that are agressive in nature.
We've used point buy since it was introduced in 3.0. Two years ago we tried to roll characters; the method is irrelevant - what transpired was one average character, two extremely high-powered characters, and one character that was JUST worth playing according to rules. As one might expect, this player got extremely upset.
We played this campaign up to about 16th level (my character was casting 9th level divine spells) and while it was a topic of debate at out gaming table, I firmly believe that a character's statistics do in fact play a role in how powerful he/she is over the course of an adventure, especially when stacked up against PCs of lower stats.
Since that campaign, as a DM, I will never use anything but point buy. Given the opportunity to roll or take point buy, I’ll take point buy. Olidamarra does not favor me.
I agree with most of what has been said above. We used to roll out stats using a variety of different methods: 3d6, 4d6 drop lowest, 5d4, etc. There are rules for rerolling etc but the disparity between low and high rollers was too big to ignore. So we switched to point buy. Some people were unhappy to start but they eventually saw the light.
Point-buy is the most fair system to generate stats. You can customise your character and make it completely even or power up one stat and become one-dimensional. If players complain about the lack of randomness in their characters you can compromise by doing standard point-buy and then let people roll 1d6 and use those as extra points to be added wherever.
High STR melee artists are susceptable to many of the tactics given already. I feel that one worthy tactic is to use a monk, or something with higher base speed, and use spring attack or shot on run against the fighter. The scout class (Comp Adventurer) is ideal for hit and run tactics that have the potential to make your melee specialist scared. Alternatively use the fighters stats and create a power attack specialist/frenzied beserker to rush in and attack. After a couple of hits your fighter is probably going to want to run away and rethink tactics.
later
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Contributor
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On a related note,
I recently pitched an article query to Dragon regarding using cards to randomly generate character stats. The premise is that you do a card spread like a tarot reading, and what cards you get in what locations determine your stats.
My goal with this is to achieve a random but balanced character generation system: all characters should balance out the way they would with point buy, but there is still a random element.
It would include rules for varying power level like point buy can, and also for giving varying degrees of control to the characters.
I've actually designed similar systems for other games, and it really is my favoourite system.
I think you should at least try point buy. I had much of the same reservations about one dimensional and/or cookie cutter characters, but for the most part they have failed to materialize. Your players will realize that a well rounded character is better than having one or two 18s.
The perceived value of an 18 goes down significantly when you have to spend your points wisely, in fact they are rarely taken from what I've seen. Even primary spellcasters often only buy their main stat up to a 15 so that they are not weak in other areas (still gets to 19 by 16th level). In 7 campaigns I have only seen one player go the 2 18 route to the exception of all other stats (a Half Orc Barbarian, go figure).
I’m a big fan for equal opportunity and have always used point buys in my campaigns. My system is to offer every character a base score of 10 in each stat and give them 20 points to spend at first level with a max purchase of 18 before racial adjustments.
The obvious concern based on the previous dialogue is for PC’s to Min/Max their scores and yes it did and does, to some extent, still happen. I can only reiterate what other posters have suggested which is to target the problem character’s weaknesses. The great thing is that you don’t even have to get that complicated. Let me give some examples based on your sample “Trident Wielding” PC Fighter/Barbarian.
Terrain and Mobility
If you have access to past copies of Dungeon Magazine check out “The Styes” and “Salvage Operations”. There are great examples of how terrain can humble the mightiest warriors and it all revolves around the Balance Skill. Only Bards, Monks & Rogues have Balance as a Class Skill. If you read the skill description you’ll notice that slippery conditions not only hamper movement & mobility but will also leave you flat footed if you don’t have at least 5 Ranks (Ranks not total skill bonus) of Balance. A few Rogues with good Balance and Tumble scores and the Spring Attack feat would dominate this arena. Don’t forget that a net’s Max range is only 10 feet and the Rogues could move 30 in a round make drive-by sneak attacks. Your player couldn’t charge either. You could manufacture the same conditions in any dungeon by using a Grease Spell or two. I like this kind of tactic because its elegant, it doesn’t use over powered monsters to fight back (which gives out more experience than you should be) and it does the trick.
Tactics
Have the PC’s opponent use a reach weapon & ready an action. It works like this: Your PC will have to come within 10 feet to bring the net to bear. Entering within 10 feet of someone armed with a reach weapon provokes an attack of opportunity. Have the PC’s opponent ready a move action immediately after taking an attack of opportunity. Your PC moves to attack, gets hit with an attack of opportunity and then his opponent takes off. Since the opponent’s only action for the round is a move (attack of opportunity doesn’t count) he doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the PC. Hit and run. Again, this is an elegant solution that avoids the problem of doling out too much experience due to compensating for PC strengths with overpowered monsters.
Magic
I could go on and on about how you could muck up this PC with magic but lets just look at some of the simple things that come to mind. Number one: WILL SAVES! Fighters who ignore their Wisdom scores are just asking for it. The lowly Charm Person or Hold from the measly acolyte will do the trick nicely. Also, look at Class abilities like the Druid and Ranger’s Woodland stride. This gets back to the terrain issue. A couple of Rangers in dense undergrowth with the Bow Combat Style and a bunch of animal companions would teach your PC a thing or two.
None of these ideas have even begun to explore the opportunities that monsters offer. Try throwing an ordinary Harpy at the PC. They fly (out of range of Mr Melee), they shoot bows (ow, stop that) and they have Charm Magic (Oh, not another Will Save).
That’s my two cents. Good posts, keep’em com’in.
Cheers,
C.
Tactics
Have the PC’s opponent use a reach weapon & ready an action. It works like this: Your PC will have to come within 10 feet to bring the net to bear. Entering within 10 feet of someone armed with a reach weapon provokes an attack of opportunity. Have the PC’s opponent ready a move action immediately after taking an attack of opportunity. Your PC moves to attack, gets hit with an attack of opportunity and then his opponent takes off. Since the opponent’s only action for the round is a move (attack of opportunity doesn’t count) he doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity from the PC. Hit and run. Again, this is an elegant solution that avoids the problem of doling out too much experience due to compensating for PC strengths with overpowered monsters.
Cernunos are you using some house rules or feats? Leaving a threatened square (the net) always provokes an attack of oppurtunity (AoO), even if you only move. Taking a 5-foot step or a full round withdrawal can negate the AoO.
Also if you were playing with me I am not sure about your ready an action to move away if the net fighter approaches and then taking an AoO before taking your readied action. A readied action moves your initiative to before the action that triggered it. So if you were planning on moving away if net fighter closed with you then you would do that before you made your AoO.That is how I would play it.
Any comments?
The thing is if every encounter (or even just all important encounters) occure with creatures that are good at countering net wielding fighters its going to start feeling really contrived in a hurry. Sure every so often having such an encounter will seem fine and sure spruce things up, making all of them with an anti-net emphasis seems over the top.
Yeah, I point that out later in that post or in an earlier one, not to over punish him.
The key is not to make everyone anti-net, I agree. If you use many different monsters, there should be combats where he can decimate part of the group, but will not be able to go a%@!!## on the rest of them. It balances it out.
I do a fair bit of work for my game along these lines. as for character creation I use a roll 4d6 drop the lowest die, if that doesn't result in what the player was interested in then they get 24 points on the Iron Heros point buy system.(Iron Heros pg 17) This makes more powerful characters, however I use a similar system with NPC's and monsters and such. It is a bloody lot of work, changing everyhing from Aboleth to Owlbears but it allows for cool feat combinations for both players and really unique NPS's. This makes the game more fun for all involved. I (the DM) get to creat more interesting encounters, and players enjoy thier characters more and more memorable encounters. One side effect is that this also allows for a smaller group of players while doing less work behind the DM screen. It isn't as powerful as gestalt characters(unearthed Arcana pg 72) but cool nonthe less. Hope I helped.
Cernunos are you using some house rules or feats? Leaving a threatened square (the net) always provokes an attack of oppurtunity (AoO), even if you only move. Taking a 5-foot step or a full round withdrawal can negate the AoO.
Also if you were playing with me I am not sure about your ready an action to move away if the net fighter approaches and then taking an AoO before taking your readied action. A readied action moves your initiative to before the action that triggered it. So if you were planning on moving away if net fighter closed with you then you would do that before you made your AoO.
That is how I would play it.
Any comments?
I’ll concede you have a point. In my own defense I threw most of that out off the top of my head; though, I think there’s probably room for debate. For starters: if all you do in a round is move then the square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see. Although the PC in this case has a net with a 10’ range increment so maybe that gives him an attack of opportunity? Not sure because I don’t think range weapons can be used for attacks of opportunity as you don’t threaten squares with them. The other rules question that raises my concern is this: does taking a readied action disqualify you from making attacks of opportunity? I can’t really find anything on it. If so, the opponent in my example is within his rights to take an attack of opportunity while preparing a readied action. I could be more specific about the action triggering the readied action. How about: the opponent prepares a readied action to move whenever the first enemy enters his threatened squares. If free to take attacks of opportunity he should be able to get a shot off before leaving.
In any case, my primary interest is to showcase the range of potential tactics that can be developed to level the playing field against Min/Maxers. I could offer some more ideas after perusing the ol’ PHB but I’ve probably derailed this thread enough already.
Cheers,
C.
For starters: if all you do in a round is move then the square you start out in is not considered threatened by any opponent you can see. Although the PC in this case has a net with a 10’ range increment so maybe that gives him an attack of opportunity? Not sure because I don’t think range weapons can be used for attacks of opportunity as you don’t threaten squares with them. The other rules question that raises my concern is this: does taking a readied action disqualify you from making attacks of opportunity? I can’t really find anything on it. If so, the opponent in my example is within his rights to take an attack of opportunity while preparing a readied action. I could be more specific about the action triggering the readied action. How about: the opponent prepares a readied action to move whenever the first enemy enters his threatened squares. If free to take attacks of opportunity he should be able to get a shot off before leaving.
Point taken with AoO, ranged weapons should not provoke so you would be free to leave, unless the net fighter had some wierd feat. And yes if you do a full round withdrawal the first 'threatened' square you leave is not threatened - but you cannot ready a full round withdrawal.
Umm and the readied action might be a judgment call, but when I DM the readied action to move away when net fighter enters my square takes place prior to the net attack (which would provoke the AoO). So you move away without using AoO. Alternatively you could ready to move after the net attacks, you get AoO but net might grapple you.Pack to the topic at hand
As for generating stats: Point-buy the whole way! (in my humble opinion of course).
You could always try to suck some STR permenantly from the net fighter with a Bestow Curse or something equivalent.
I think you should at least try point buy. I had much of the same reservations about one dimensional and/or cookie cutter characters, but for the most part they have failed to materialize. Your players will realize that a well rounded character is better than having one or two 18s.
The perceived value of an 18 goes down significantly when you have to spend your points wisely, in fact they are rarely taken from what I've seen. Even primary spellcasters often only buy their main stat up to a 15 so that they are not weak in other areas (still gets to 19 by 16th level). In 7 campaigns I have only seen one player go the 2 18 route to the exception of all other stats (a Half Orc Barbarian, go figure).
Well my experience with point buy seems to verify the idea that it makes really steriotypical characters common. All fighters are usually dumb and have low wisdom, all wizards are smart and weak etc. Players may or may not go for the actual 18 but they want good stats in their primary ability and the ones to dump are generally steriotypical. I liked the idea of layering a smaller point buy on top of the elite aray. That should give out less extreme characters.
On a related note,
I recently pitched an article query to Dragon regarding using cards to randomly generate character stats. The premise is that you do a card spread like a tarot reading, and what cards you get in what locations determine your stats.
My goal with this is to achieve a random but balanced character generation system: all characters should balance out the way they would with point buy, but there is still a random element.
It would include rules for varying power level like point buy can, and also for giving varying degrees of control to the characters.
I've actually designed similar systems for other games, and it really is my favoourite system.
Would this not also tell the players where their stats are thus forcing players to play classes that they may or may not want to play?
We always (nearly) played with rolled dices, 3d6 at start and rapidly 4d6 keeping the 3 best, after that nobody (nearly again) is rolling dice now, we put the scores we want, we play high powered game so it's not a problem.
18.18.14.13.12.10 exemple.
I'm not very fond of point buy schemes either. I use the following method, which seems to usually produce decent characters that can be tailored a bit but avoids the cookie-cutter feel of the point buy. Roll 4d6 for each score. Player can roll 4d6 again and use that score to substitute for any one of his scores, and can then switch any two scores. If the combined total of bonuses and penalties comes out less than plus 6, I let the player reroll. (This can easily be reset to suit the style of your campaign, of course, and if you do really high powered you might try allowing two substitutions). I tend to use a mix of challenging combats, role-playing encounters, and skill challenges in my campaigns, and it makes it interesting for the players if they develop a few skills and feats atypical for their classes, plus it can make for interesting backstories and roleplaying hooks.
I'm not sure all the discussion and hype about stereotypical ability scores and Min/Maxing cuts the mustard in my camp. Random dice roles produce such wildly varying results that some of my players actually feel they can't play in the group if their ability scores aren't comparable. I've had players use their characters suicidally so they could reroll a new character with better ability scores. That's when I decided the pro's of standard point buy out weigh the con's. It's a little bit of Solomon’s harsh wisdom in play but it just levels the playing field so we can get on with role playing and worry less about the Jones’s (so to speak).
And, because I'm obsessive and don't know when to let go:
Point taken with AoO, ranged weapons should not provoke so you would be free to leave, unless the net fighter had some weird feat. And yes if you do a full round withdrawal the first 'threatened' square you leave is not threatened - but you cannot ready a full round withdrawal.
Umm and the readied action might be a judgment call, but when I DM the readied action to move away when net fighter enters my square takes place prior to the net attack (which would provoke the AoO). So you move away without using AoO. Alternatively you could ready to move after the net attacks, you get AoO but net might grapple you.
Alright, forget the opponent's AoO. How about this: Prepare a readied action to attack the first enemy to enter your threatened range (10' with a reach weapon). When the PC comes within range the opponent attacks with his Standard Action and then Tumbles away (DC 15 I believe) with the move action to avoid an attack of opportunity from "net boy". If "net boy" follows with his Move Action we can discuss AoO. Otherwise, I think that's a fair approach? Comments?
Cheers,
C.
I desperatly wan't to switch my campaigns to point buy system but I can't seem to come to terms with it.
I prefer to use the point buy system because it allows a player to write up a character whenever he can instead of needing to have the DM eyeball every die roll. Seems to me if a DM thinks a player's going to cheat on stats a DM'd also assume that player's going to cheat at the game table and ultimatly not want that player at the game. But I digress.
That all said, the group I play with currently uses a rolling system developed by one of the DMs where you roll 4d6 (dropping the lowest) 6 times. Then, using a series of -/+ numbers attached to the corresponding rolled numbers (that are similar to the numbers on the point-buy chart except it takes into account numbers lower than 8) you get a point total. If that total is below 32 you roll another number, crossing out the topmost number, and recalculate the new point total. This keeps going until the 32+ target is reached then assign the numbers to whichever attribute you want.
When it was initially described to me it sounded convoluted and I probably explained it in exactly the same way. I've got a PDF that outlines it better as well as gives an example:
Good luck with whatever system you wind up adopting.
- Chris Shadowens
We have players with varying ability scores, brought in from different campaigns. I very much like the idea of treating them as one level higher for experience. As for combat, what would you do as a player against a giant with one level in barbarian? You would try to handle them the same way as your fighter. Remember you have 3 characters using their action in a round to deal that much damage. The suggestions so far have been great. I would like to add, have your Will save caster direct his front line fighters to use combat expertise while he casts spells from the rear.
I have never really liked the Weapon Style Feats and Tactical Feats from CW. They seem too powerful. Perhaps they need to be limited to a certain number of times per day. Since we have never played with them I am not an expert. Just my initial opinion from perusing them.
All this mayhem and they don't even have a ton of magic items.
First of all, I forgot to mention in my earlier post that we drop the lowest die out of 4d6. (what wonderful stats those would have been!)
Second, I feel I must respond to the point buy system. What does it create? Fairness. Where is it stated anywhere in any D&D book that this game should or must be fair? On a number of different posts I have read about how if a player’s stats didn’t stack up to another player’s character’s stats they thought it was unfair, and they didn’t want to play that character, or they quickly lost interest in their character. This game is about having fun. If your player can’t have fun if his ability scores aren’t as good as the person sitting next to him then I’d say “go back to grade school and play kickball where they don’t keep score so everybody can be a winner.” On a random die roll, everyone has an equal chance of achieving a particular roll. Each person has the same chance to achieve a good roll as a bad one; the playing field starts out equal! Life ain’t fair people, and sometimes die results aren’t either! Cermunos might be smarter or wiser than me, but I might be stronger than him. Heck, he may even be stronger too, but you know what? I hold my own just fine, even if my stats aren’t equal or fair when compared to his. (Sorry Cermunos, I knew your name was on this thread so used you because you were there.)
Thirdly, often times we are comparing apples to oranges. Seldom in our (my) groups do we end up with two characters of the same class. Each class has different key abilities, so for druid A to whine about Fighter B’s abilities, it really holds no weight with me. So what if the fighter’s strength score is an 18 and the Druid’s wisdom is only a 16. They each have different roles to play in the game. Is the player of the druid saying to himself “That’s not fair, the fighter gets a +4 on his attack roll and the goblin only has a –3 to his save vs. my spell? I think not.
And even if we are talking about two characters of the same class, so what if their ability scores aren’t equal or comparable. Me I’d rather play the fighter with lower abilities than those of my compatriot. Give me the underdog and let me show you how he can shine. If not in combat, than in role-playing. I’ll give you the wimpy fighter that everyone will remember, not for his pathetic attack rolls, (although maybe those too) but for his ability to make an impression on those around him, whether it be the NPC we encounter in the pub, or the against the might dragon where I make my last stand. Everybody loves and remembers the underdog.
Under my stat rolling system, I’ve only had one time in over 5 years with this group of players where a character’s stats were so poorly mismatched with the rest of the party that it really stood out. The player ended up with, after racial modifiers, a 15, 10, 9, 8, 6, 5. The poor guy sucked. He was doomed from berth, and it didn’t help that the player is one of those people who is cursed with the d20 in his hands. He even rolled poorly on his hit points at levels 2 and 3. Needless to say, he never made it to level 4. But you know what? Big Rand gave that guy everything he had to make him an adventurer. But unfortunately, not everyone is cut out for the life of an adventurer. He should have followed in his father’s footsteps and been a cobbler. My point is that this game will weed out the true weaklings. Stats aren’t all that crucial, equality even less so, and as I stated in my earlier post, a low ability score or two really helps to make a character more real, believable, and in my opinion more fun to play.
Enough of my rant and thanks for reading.
Lively and interesting discussion, great job all.
If i may just jump in too...
What we do is a point buy variation too, only instead of total points or whatnot, the Dm just gives the group the Total abilities modifiers he or she wants (before racial modifiers, and 18 being the max as usual).
Depending on the campaign power level so to speak that has ranged from a mere plus 4 once all the way to 12. This way there is no luck in abilitties and every Player will be on a equal footing, plus they cannot complain about their stats because they chose them.
The downside of course will be the dumb fighters and weak wizards. But if you really think about it, is that really unusual? I mean isn't that a good chunk of the explanation why a character chose a certain class to begin with? If you were born with an 17 intelligence and a strength of 8 how likely are you to choose to be a fighter?
Just my thoughts on the matter, and what my group does. This system is agreed to by all and serves us well enogough. The disclaimer is that it might not be what everyone is looking for, but I just thought i'd present it as an option.
Be safe all.
Alright, forget the opponent's AoO. How about this: Prepare a readied action to attack the first enemy to enter your threatened range (10' with a reach weapon). When the PC comes within range the opponent attacks with his Standard Action and then Tumbles away (DC 15 I believe) with the move action to avoid an attack of opportunity from "net boy". If "net boy" follows with his Move Action we can discuss AoO. Otherwise, I think that's a fair approach? Comments?Cheers,
C.
You cannot make a move action after a readied action, you can only ready one kind of action.
From the SRD:You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
Just as an example of what Sexi Golem and I are up against in our campaigns, here's the current stat set for the 7th level party in my campaign (including Sexi's character): Gnome druid: Str 10, Dex 18, Con 16, Int 18, Wis 20, Cha 13 (animal companion- wolf advanced to Large size with 22 Str); Elf Ranger/Wiz (going Arcane Archer): Str 18, Dex 22, Con 12, Int 16, Wis 16, Cha 14; Human warlock: Str 14, Dex 18, Con 18, Int 7, Wis 13, Cha 20; Gnome Wizard: Str 9, Dex 16, Con 16, Int 21, Wis 12, Cha 13.
The warlock and wizard (Sexi's character) are super characters, but are modest in comparison to the ranger and druid! What the... (has anurism)?! Not only are all of them at least effectively one level higher from stats alone (two I'd say for the elf and druid), but they can't even be on the same power base as super heroes! And these rolls weren't fudged at all. This is, of course, the most extreme example I've ever personally experienced. I was really debating about whether or not to really switch ot point-buy to begin with, but this does it. Point buy forever more for me.
To address your characters Saern, the wolf would not grow to be large. The additional HD do not enlarge a familiar or companion.
Before you feel that your campaign is ruined try treating the group as a level higher. Use this additional level for CRs and experience then see if it balances. Many of the creature PCs can have tremendously high scores but they are balanced with ECL.
Cermunos might be smarter or wiser than me, but I might be stronger than him. Heck, he may even be stronger too, but you know what? I hold my own just fine, even if my stats aren’t equal or fair when compared to his. (Sorry Cermunos, I knew your name was on this thread so used you because you were there.)
That's Cool.
You cannot make a move action after a readied action, you can only ready one kind of action.
From the SRD:
You can take a 5-foot step as part of your readied action, but only if you don’t otherwise move any distance during the round.
O.K. Forget the rules entirely for a moment and imagine this. You've got a 10 foot spear and some big bruiser is aiming to come over, trap you in net and poke you mercelessly with a pitchfork. To do this he's got to get within range of his net or his poking stick. Tell me you're not going to poke him first and run away?
Like any good Canadian I've played my fare share of street hockey and I can tell you from experience its dead easy to whack someone with the stick when they're close enough and take off with the puck while their thinking about what just happened. That's why they have rules against that sort of thing. It'd be twice as easy if your hockey stick was 10 feet long.
So, if you believe this is possible, as do I, someone tell me how they'd do it within the D&D rules system. On second thought, don't do it here - I'm derailing this thread (sorry sexi golem). I'll start another thread as soon as I get a chance.
Cheers,
C.
To address your characters Saern, the wolf would not grow to be large. The additional HD do not enlarge a familiar or companion.
Before you feel that your campaign is ruined try treating the group as a level higher. Use this additional level for CRs and experience then see if it balances. Many of the creature PCs can have tremendously high scores but they are balanced with ECL.
I didn't know that about the animal companion's HD- I thought it advanced as normal. This helps. I don't think my campaign is ruined- I was surprised by the effects of a group of 4 CR 5 scrags on the party in a recent play session. They nearly ripped the arm off the ranger.
I'm just tired of character creation going like this: Ok, so where do I put my god-like powers, where do I put my superhero powers, and where do I put my mortal abilities? Meanwhile (though not in this campaign), the guy who got a 16 max, and the next closest is a 14, skulks in the corner because he knows he's inferior to the others while they boast about the super powers their characters possess by their ability scores alone.
Not to mention, an 18 is no longer a big deal when everyone has multiples. I'm not going to run the entire party like they're gods in social encounters all the time, even though their stats suggest they are, because they're awesome at everything, so the only recourse is to make EVERYTHING in the world stronger, so then what's the point of the 18? /rant over
Thus, the point buy system is going to be implemented asap.
To address your characters Saern, the wolf would not grow to be large. The additional HD do not enlarge a familiar or companion.
I just looked at the PHB; I didn't see any mention of that under the class ability description or the Bonus HD section of the animal companion rules. Can you cite a page number and book (I'd presume PHB, but like I said, I didn't see it)?
To address your characters Saern, the wolf would not grow to be large. The additional HD do not enlarge a familiar or companion.I just looked at the PHB; I didn't see any mention of that under the class ability description or the Bonus HD section of the animal companion rules. Can you cite a page number and book (I'd presume PHB, but like I said, I didn't see it)?
See the D&D FAQ and look under Druid. I believe they emphasize this point again in some of the Complete books.
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Would this not also tell the players where their stats are thus forcing players to play classes that they may or may not want to play?I recently pitched an article query to Dragon regarding using cards to randomly generate character stats. The premise is that you do a card spread like a tarot reading, and what cards you get in what locations determine your stats.
My goal with this is to achieve a random but balanced character generation system: all characters should balance out the way they would with point buy, but there is still a random element.
Yes it will, as do some methods of rolling dice. It will also include an optional rule to arrange the cards that you draw however you like to gain some control, much like rolling stats and putting them in the order you want. I'm also putting in the option to randomly choose both race and class.
Coincidentally, the same day I made the original post, I got the green light to write the article. Hopefully everyone will be able to pick it apart more thoroughly if it gets to print!
Yes it will, as do some methods of rolling dice. It will also include an optional rule to arrange the cards that you draw however you like to gain some control, much like rolling stats and putting them in the order you want. I'm also putting in the option to randomly choose both race and class.Coincidentally, the same day I made the original post, I got the green light to write the article. Hopefully everyone will be able to pick it apart more thoroughly if it gets to print!
Good luck with that.