Hey all,
I ran my second session of the Age of Worms campaign last night, and have run into a bit of a storytelling dilemma. The first session of the campaign was a bit of a "get to know you" session, and involved the party getting down into the Lair of the Architect before we stopped. At that point the party's cleric said he wanted to rest and get spells and suggested that they just go back to Diamond Lake to sleep, since that's only 10 minutes away. Well, maybe it's just my style of play, but the idea of the party constantly leaving, then coming back, then leaving, then coming back doesn't seem particularly heroic to me. At that point, I suggested that they may want to stay in the dungeon for the night, since the "rival party" might show up at any minute and steal treasure for themselves.
Last night, they continued on a bit, got most of the way through the Lair of the Laborers before deciding to rest again. This time, with bunches o' loot in hand, they decided to go back into town to sell stuff and rest. Again, this kinda rubs me the wrong way as it makes the dungeon delve very disconnected. However, in order to encourage the party to "complete" the dungeon before leaving in the future, I'm going to throw in the following twists to the adventure next session:
1) The party arrives back in town late at night, visits Allustan to have magic items identified, then goes out to do some trading/selling of items. Use this time to introduce them to Diamond Lake a little bit, but also make sure and set up for...
2) The next day, when they return to the Whispering Cairn they find that Balabar Smenk has posted guards around the Cairn, forbidding anyone else to enter. Balabar's eyes and ears in Diamond Lake reported the party returning with several hundred gold worth of treasure and, being his greedy self, has claimed the Cairn as his own. Furthermore...
3) Balabar has been convinced to allow the three rival adventurers from the Free City to plunder the Cairn in exchange for at least half the treasure. These three adventurers are currently exploring the Cairn and having an easier time of it since my party's rogue already disabled the traps. As such, some of the non-magical treasure will have been removed from the Cairn already, though I do intend to leave all the "important stuff" behind. When the party runs into the rival adventurers later, they'll be bragging about all the loot they found.
4) My party and the rival adventurers will be in the Whispering Cairn at the same time, in sort of a race-to-the-finish trying to figure out the secret of the Cairn. However, once they reach the ghost of Alastor I'll pull the rivals out the adventure, sending them back to Diamond Lake with their plundered treasure. Since they refuse to do the bidding of a ghost (giving the party an edge here), the rival adventurers call it quits until they can figure out how to open the door. The adventure proceeds as normal from here.
I'm thinking about also throwing in some short encounters in Diamond Lake on the night they return. I was thinking of having the party get attacked by thieves (who heard they've got money now, and aren't afraid to steal), get a personal invitation to the Emporium from Zalamandra (where she plans to con them out of their newfound money), and maybe even have a short encounter with one of the rival adventurers (particularly since the party's rogue is now wearing the masterwork leather armor emblazoned with the symbol of the Seekers on it).
So what do you think? Am I being too harsh on them, or does this inject an appropriate sense of urgency?
No, I don't think you're being too harsh on them; you're running the residents of Diamond Lake intelligently and proactively. They're responding to the actions of the PCs as is approriate for a bunch of greedy, dishonest, and ambitious people who smell an easy mark. It's a very interesting, creative, and plausible solution to the problem you were having with your group. May even use some of it myself, since my group has yet to make any kind of contact with the bigger players in DL other than Allustan. It'll be a good way to incite their hatred of Smenk and rivalry with the Free City adventurers.
3) Balabar has been convinced to allow the three rival adventurers from the Free City to plunder the Cairn in exchange for at least half the treasure. These three adventurers are currently exploring the Cairn and having an easier time of it since my party's rogue already disabled the traps. As such, some of the non-magical treasure will have been removed from the Cairn already, though I do intend to leave all the "important stuff" behind. When the party runs into the rival adventurers later, they'll be bragging about all the loot they found.
It would be fun to have your players(or some other players if you have access to more) play the rival adventurers in the cairn for a period of time until their own charaters show up. This way you could actually know what they did in the cairn, and (depending on how well your players are at sepperating player knowledge and Character knowledge) who knows they might fall prey to some of the traps. It would also let you know where the NPC would actually be when the characters arrive, and what shape they would be in.
I've found that players that can seperate themselves from their characters well really enjoy this tryp of stage setting and knowing "The rest of the story"
Just a thought...
ASEO out
this kinda rubs me the wrong way as it makes the dungeon delve very disconnected.
I actually encourage my party to rest when they like. This Tomb has gone unplundered since its creation 100's of years ago, why shouldn't they feel it's safe to take a break. I wouldn't be opposed to someone else getting in, like the other adventurers, but they would have to have told someone exactly where they got it, otherwise you might just want to have them followed, after all, no one else expects there to be treasure in this Cairn either.
*spoiler Three Faces of Evil*
Your chance to mess with them for sleeping or leaving comes soon enough in the next mod when you having a group of people living in the dungeon, who are bound to know if something happens there. Give tehm a chance to rest in this one.
I think your idea to have Smenk show up and post guards at the entrance is a great idea. When the PCs somehow get inside, maybe they wander into a room where they find the rival adventurers counting up a huge stack of gp, showing off some cool looking magic items they found, etc. That outta discourage your group from leaving any dungeon again!
***
But besides that, I think the closeness of the town isn't a big deal. I would just let them go back. I'd have fun roleplaying stuff in town, there's lots of detail and lots to do. I don't see the problem.
If I started to think the PCs were going back to town way too often, like after every single encounter or something ridiculous like that, then that's when I would start making life difficult.
First step would be to add new wildlife that moves into the cave entrance. Like a hive of stirges. Or maybe a lonely owlbear. Maybe the wolves they killed earlier, come back to life as zombie wolves...
Also you can add some random encounters along the 10 minute path between town and cairn; like a trio of wandering gnolls, a platoon of hungry giant ants. For some roleplaying, maybe they find a lost baby hill giant that wandered away from it's parents....
Anything to chip away at their hp. So by the time they get back to the room where they last left off, they end up nearly as wounded as before they left. That might discourage them just as much as Smenk's goons or the rival cairn-robbers.
It sounds like your players were clearing out a wing at a time. I see no problem with resting after that. As for leaving to do it, its acctually the smart thing to do. I don't necessarily mean they should go back to town, but they don't know what else might be down there.
I was sweating that a bit myself, but my party has only left once. I have the town a bit farther away, so it's not as easy a jaunt for them. They got their collective butts handed to them by the wolves, didn't have a healer and had to rest a day in the cairn just to get everybody conscious so I let them go back to town and get some healing at the garrison chapel. They have a fire lit under them to clear it before the Rival Adventurers find out what they're up to, though, so I don't foresee a problem.
I like your ideas, though.
If they try it in 3FoE, they're definitely doomed.
Hey all,
I ran my second session of the Age of Worms campaign last night, and have run into a bit of a storytelling dilemma. The first session of the campaign was a bit of a "get to know you" session, and involved the party getting down into the Lair of the Architect before we stopped. At that point the party's cleric said he wanted to rest and get spells and suggested that they just go back to Diamond Lake to sleep, since that's only 10 minutes away. Well, maybe it's just my style of play, but the idea of the party constantly leaving, then coming back, then leaving, then coming back doesn't seem particularly heroic to me. At that point, I suggested that they may want to stay in the dungeon for the night, since the "rival party" might show up at any minute and steal treasure for themselves.
Last night, they continued on a bit, got most of the way through the Lair of the Laborers before deciding to rest again. This time, with bunches o' loot in hand, they decided to go back into town to sell stuff and rest. Again, this kinda rubs me the wrong way as it makes the dungeon delve very disconnected. However, in order to encourage the party to "complete" the dungeon before leaving in the future, I'm going to throw in the following twists to the adventure next session:
1) The party arrives back in town late at night, visits Allustan to have magic items identified, then goes out to do some trading/selling of items. Use this time to introduce them to Diamond Lake a little bit, but also make sure and set up for...
2) The next day, when they return to the Whispering Cairn they find that Balabar Smenk has posted guards around the Cairn, forbidding anyone else to enter. Balabar's eyes and ears in Diamond Lake reported the party returning with several hundred gold worth of treasure and, being his greedy self, has claimed the Cairn as his own. Furthermore...
3) Balabar has been convinced to allow the three rival adventurers from the Free City to plunder the Cairn in exchange for at least half the treasure. These...
Whoa. Great ideas! I might just have to "borrow" that!
That's a great way to ensure the PCs "get" Diamond Lake and its denizens.WaterdhavianFlapjack
WaterdhavianFlapjack
Rodney,
I'm with you about leaving the scene to rest being irksome, though personally this has never occurred in my campaigns. In fact, I often have the opposite problem ... in an attempt to be "heroic", the PCs keep pushing forward until they're barely breathing when they reach the end boss. Personally, I get irked when adventure-writers design the adventure in such a way that frequent rest periods are required (I'm with you - I don't view taking "breaks" as very heroic). Along the same vein, I'm too old-school 1st ed. mentality to like facing monsters that are not there to be killed/defeated. This is sort of a contridictory attitude of mine, since I'm nearly obsessive/compulsive about logic in my campaigns, but on this one issue I'm a bit of the opposite. I would like everything a PC encounters to have some purpose/connection (even an indirect one) to the task at hand and that means every monster is confronted with the purpose of overcoming it. Don't SHOW me the dragon if its only purpose is for me to run away. My PCs almost never run from anything (hey, they're heroes!). That's how I like to play it; regardless of which side of the screen I'm on.
All that being said, I'm trying to learn to accept the style of game-play that is dependent on multiple rest periods/breaks. I'm especially lenient and understanding in these Adventure Paths. And like someone posted above, the cairn isn't exactly going anywhere - since it has remained largely undiscovered for a long time.
The point to this very looong post (sorry 'bout that) is that I think your ideas are inspired! (Consider them stolen!!). I will echo my fellow posters and say they are not harsh at all, but instead represent a living,proactive community. Your ideas help speed play and keep PCs on track - as well as adding some cool flava!
Good work!
I like these ideas. May have to slip one or two of them in myself.
Personally, I don't have a problem with the PCs heading back to town whenever they want to. Most of my party has "day jobs" in Diamond Lake and are doing a good part of their adventuring in the Cairn on their time off. They make sure to hide the Cairn entrance when they leave and most of their coming and going from town is done at night, so nobody has really taken notice of them yet, either.
And just as a side note, according to all the background info, technically the Cairn is supposed to be an hour and ten minutes outside of Diamond Lake. The abandoned mining office they are supposed to use as a base is about an hour out of town and the Cairn is ten minutes past that.
IMO, one of the most annoying things is a static world. If the party lets word if their adventures slip (say, to the gossipy shop owner, whatever his name was), they will quickly find themselves confronted. However, if they just clear a section and need to go rest, it's perfectly fine to let them slip back to town.
My group HAD to leave. They had no wizard, and had already used up all their alchemist fire/acid flasks, so when the beetle swarm came rushing out of the collapsed elevator shaft, they litterally ran full out, screaming as they went. Considering that my group almost never runs from anything, I was in stitches.
They also got pretty messed up by the wolves- but, being stubborn, they rested in the Cairn for about a week to get their hp back. I don't particularly like THAT. They were roleplaying pretty well throughout the rest of the session, but just to save a little money, they slept in the Cairn. I tried to think of a reason to make them go back to town, but my brain froze for some reason. In hindsight, more animal encounters, or maybe contracting a minor disease from sleeping in the old ruins, would have done it.
Parties can get some wierd ideas sometimes, and it can be hard to break their logic, even if you know it's flawed. However, it's always better to let them try and then see WHY this is a bad idea, rather than just telling them so. They learn it better that way.
BTW: How in the world has the Cairn gone so long, being so close to DL, without being explored yet?
BTW: How in the world has the Cairn gone so long, being so close to DL, without being explored yet?
It has been explored. But the traps devised by the architect are such that no one has ever gotten through to the true tomb.
Just had a cool idea (assuming the players are smart enough). They could leave, putting up a couple tripwires (I would use the improvised trap special ability from Traps & Treachery, even if none of my PCs have the class), and then camoflaguing the entrance.
Then, when they return, they find Balabar Smenk's goons, with a couple casualties (or maybe just bodies) from the traps. Then, they could sneak (or fight) their way back in.
What d'ya think?
WaterdhavianFlapjack
It has been explored. But the traps devised by the architect are such that no one has ever gotten through to the true tomb.
Woops! Somehow managed to forget all about that.
Just had a cool idea (assuming the players are smart enough). They could leave, putting up a couple tripwires (I would use the improvised trap special ability from Traps & Treachery, even if none of my PCs have the class), and then camoflaguing the entrance.
Then, when they return, they find Balabar Smenk's goons, with a couple casualties (or maybe just bodies) from the traps. Then, they could sneak (or fight) their way back in.
What d'ya think?
I know my group jumps at any chance to use traps they can. We've already done this part of the AP, but it is a good idea nonetheless. It's good way to get them some extra XP or items if they're running behind, as well as fostering more animosity towards Smenk.
It sounds like your players were clearing out a wing at a time. I see no problem with resting after that. As for leaving to do it, its acctually the smart thing to do. I don't necessarily mean they should go back to town, but they don't know what else might be down there.
Well, I agree that sleeping is fine. However, I just don't like the idea of them running back to town every time. Not only does it make the whole "delving into the dungeon" aspect a bit less exciting, it also makes it way too easy to come across a trap, run back to town for special tools, run back, lather, rinse, repeat.
Glad the consensus isn't that I'm being too harsh, though.
Like this idea used it last night to add a bit of fun. To be honest my group were resting in the cairn but had to go to town when one of them got squished in the elevator trap (despite repeated descriptions of 'crushed bones crunching under foot'!!)
They started throwing their new found wealth around so I punished them a little for that.
Definitely not too harsh, I always try to play the NPC's to their full potential/limitations. Smenck would certainly try this if he got wind of it. It depends on the PC's actions though, if they went to town and made a point of not discussing their discoveries, then fine let them 'commute' to the cairn. But if the locals find out, then they are fair game!
My players left the cairn three times, not counting the "bury the bones" section of the adventure. I didn't feel compelled to penalize them as they took precautions to cover their tracks and keep the location of their discoveries a secret. The Three Faces will keep them pinned in the locations as will Blackwall Keep. They neede the break to have a chance to survive to a level where they could take on the next sections without extended rest periods.
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I see no issue with PCs leaving the Cairn and going back to town - it often creates a nice mix between dungeon and urban setting, where the PCs get a chance to roleplay more in town.
The module is pretty tough and the players could use Allustan's knowledge checks (they have on their own taken to creating sketches of any symbols/glyphs). Most of the tough encounters (such as the swarm/slashers) have caused players to go negative HP.
When I look back at the history of all of our playing at 1st level, the group has loved the nature of going back and forth between town and the dungeon (i.e. Hommlet and the Moathouse). To them this is classic gaming. Keep the 'dungeon' changing - maybe the dead wolf corpses attract a new occupant? Maybe some bandits trail them to the caves? If the frequent resting starts to make things too easy, thats a very easy problem for DMs to solve. :)
My party is smaller, consisting of only three characters. I started with only two, and have recently added a third. I started them at 3rd level, and so far the exploration has still been quite challenging (although a 3rd level sorcerer with burning hands makes quick work of acid beetle swarms). They have left the cairn multiple times, and have been getting advice from both Allustan and Ellival Moonmeadow (the de-facto guardian figure for the elf sorceress) that they should keep their activities very low key. Ellival doesn't know exactly what they're doing, but Allustan has become a sort of mentor/patron for them, helping them with research and info in exchange for first dibs on any lore and/or magical items they don't want to keep for themselves. So far, they've followed this advice very closely. They've bought nothing but basic supplies and gear from Taggit's General Store, which is easily explained away as necessary for renovating the newly acquired mining office that one of the out-of-towners (an elf ranger from Celene) is supposedly going to use as a place to settle down and retire. So, they've had no real cause to draw any undue attention. Any major purchases they make have been with letters of credit from Allustan himself, which is what he uses to pay them for the few magical baubles they've brought him from the WC. Most people just think they're working for Allustan because of this, and as I see it there are very few people in town willing to pry too deeply into the business of a man who is not only the Governer-Mayor's brother but also the most powerful known mage in the region. Unless and until they start overtly making waves in town (IE - spending lots of looted coin, selling off unusual and magical items around town, snooping into the affairs of Smenk and his assorted goons, etc.), they're pretty much free to come and go from the Cairn as they please, and have been making liberal use of that fact. That said, it may be time for some local beastie to be attracted to the three dead wolves they left outside the Cairn, hungry for something a bit fresher... just when the PCs show back up at the WC. ::Evil rubbing together of palms::
The abandoned mining office they are supposed to use as a base is about an hour out of town and the Cairn is ten minutes past that.
Where'd you get that from? According to Dungeon #124, the Cairn is a day's ride from Diamond Lake.
It could be either, depends on where you look in #124.
p.16 col.3
"not so another Cairn within a day's ride of the village"
p.18 col.3, p.19 col.1
"friend or acquaintance has set up a meeting in an abandoned mine overseer's office about an hour outside town"
"the yawning entrance to the Whispering Cairn lies about 10 minutes east of the abandoned mine office"
