This is going to sound wierd but I want to send a thank you out to both Arcesilaus & Eric.
As I was reading through TFoE I was taking note of the technical errors but I admit it wasn't really raising my ire - more like placing a burden on my shoulders because I knew I'd want to catalogue these issues for correction before running the game. That's why I'm thankful for Arcesilaus' post - you did my work for me. Cheers!
As for Eric, wow thanks! All the stuff regarding Diamond Lake Politics is in the magazine for the curious and imaginative to see but for the overworked and tired it's a welcome gift when someone spells it all out for you. Thanks for the post Eric!
Through this whole post I keep thinking how reduntant this conversation would be if publication was more like the Design/Construction industry (in which I work as a designer). When we issue a design for tender there is a certain expectation that there will be errors; however, there is a mechanism to handle this called the "addenda" which is issued to correct or clarify errors and ommissions in the design. Eric, maybe you could use the #125 Web Enhancement as a sort of addenda to the TFoE - Arcesilaus has pretty much done the work for you. Just a thought.
Last thoughts: after all the roleplaying, running around and political head scratching the PC's do in Whispering Cairn (this is a compliment BTW) they're good and ready for a dungeon crawl. TFoE has its faults but I like it!
Cheers,
C.
|
I think the criticisms in this thread are well-placed, particularly in the area of plot development. I've been struggling with the motivation question to get my players into the Dourstone Mine. That said, I expect to have to modify these adventures pretty heavily because of small party size (which really magnifies the problem of not having believable rest opportunities). What makes the lack of plot really difficult right now is the missing 'Overload' material. I'm hesitant to modify too much now and cause myself problems later on.
Luckily, my players have busy lives and I still have some time before we hit the end of Cairn. The Rogue in my party overheard a drunk miner from Dourstone talking about the area of the mine that is off-limits. The miner later turned up dead (murdered by one of the Hextorite guards who also overheard the loose talk). This was just to get them curious in anticipation of the discoveries that come when they encounter Filge.
Thanks to both Erik (for the added info on politics in town) and Arcesilaus (for pointing out some inconsistencies that I did not notice, but that my players probably will).
As a typical foreign “Dungeon-Lurker” I dare writing on these boards for the first time. Me and my whole “hard-boiled” crew of six adventurers want to say thank You Eric, Sean, James and the whole Dungeon (and Dragon!) Staff for Your wonderfull work! We´re using (almost exclusively, as far as support material is concerned!) every single one of Your great magazines since early 3.0, when we started to play D&D again. There´s always tons of good stuff to use (or just to think about and beeing inspired of!) in them. They are all worth every Euro, and I don´t understand all the complains on these boards. Both Magazines are lightyears above and beyond any “comparable” products I know on the European market.I very much appreciate the new high resolution web enhancements without room-numbers. It makes my live so much easier - no more messing around with mapping software - please don´t ever cancel this very usefull feature!
Me and my friends loved to follow Your Shackled City Adventure path and we will certainly enjoy AoW, too. Now, that we´re more than half-through with the Whispering Cairn (we had a great time there, in our last session my players managed to ambush and catch Kullen and his whole gang alive!!! – but it was close and I´m planning to blackmail them for this “coup” via Sheriff Cubbin!) I´m thinking about slightly changing 3FoE because of some problems mentioned by Arcesilaus and others in this thread. By the way: I like 3FoE a lot and don´t think it’s an average dungeon-crawl. The dark multi-leveled Grimlock Caves, the Labyrinth (hard to run!) and the small Hextor-Arena: in my opinion, these are all typical D&D virtues in a very positiv meaning…
Anyway, here are my proposals to “beef up” this already good adventure a bit concerning background and storyline details. Arcesilaus made some good points, therefore I directly relate to his post:
1) Motivation
I think I will let my players deal with Balabar Smenk later. He´s a too good villain to be wasted so early in the game. Otherwise, as Arcesilaus already mentioned my players will certainly be tempted to kick his butt immediately. When they later discover the connection between him and the goods in the Dungeon, they may give him a hard time, but Governor Neff will protect him – for a while and for a price of course… And Smenk will be starting to get “really” angry with the players – perhaps hiring some assassines?
If my players miss or ignore the “letter-clue” and/or the “worm-clue” in TWC (I doubt that) and can´t be directed to the mine by Allustan I will hook them with a missing miner (the grimlocks are chaotic anyway, always hungry and Smenks grub tastes “sooo baaad", they might divert the Hextorite guards and secretly climb up the elevator shaft to get some “fresh meat”!) or I let them experience the whole “mine-workers-situation” with all its social injustice. Perhaps they talk to a poor, hungry “escaped” miner about strange things happening in the Dourstone-Mine.
For a greedy gang of PC´s some old guard or miner, who has been there during the original excavation of the Dark Cathedral, could mention it´s discovery: “It´s a big hall full of marble worth a fortune… and perhaps other treasures… Dourstone sealed it, because he wants the treasure for himself… but I want my share!”. Dwarf PC´s and “hobby-detectives” could even be hired (by Ragnolins friend Blitzhame for example) to spy on Dourstone, because of reasons for suspicion about his involvement in a cave-in around Greysmere, 50 years ago.
2) The Mine
Who needs a stockade? Stockades are expensive and Ragnolin is a greedy miser. Besides, Dourstone has nothing to hide, has he? I only introduce a mangy watchtower near the mine-entrance. The desperate volunteers who work in the mine have some kind of temporary contract with Dourstone and aren´t going anywhere. The convicted criminals from all around the countryside, who also have to toil for Ragnolin (I love the idea of punishing Ragnolin and later on Smenk, in sentencing them to hard work in their own mines…) work in chain-gangs and have to pass a lock-gate, whenever they exit the mine, leaving their picks and other tools, that can be used as improvised weapons behind. The criminals live in the large, locked up barrack adjacent to the mine, together with the mean human guards (some fallen-from-grace soldiers from Geyhawk-City, or mercenary´s only paid from there as a part of Ragnolins bribed deal regarding his cheap “slave-laboreres” - no one in the Garrison talks to them…). The “evil” dwarven guards who supervise the night-shift (I will keep them Eric, I like the idea of having one or two well disguised Duergar among them!), generally keep a low profile, shy away from the Greysmere Covenenat and live as guards in Ragnolin Dourstones Residence, which seems to be big enough. I furthermore introduced “Iron Ivor” (my players already hate him!), a CN bounty hunter working for the highest bidder, who is hanging around in Diamond Lake, occasionally bringing some of Ragnolin´s “Volunteers” back to him for a small fee. Later on Ivor will protect Constance Grace, who already gave away to much information to my parties wizard, one of her most generous “clients”! I added some workers and convicts to the mine, explaining it´s strong defence force and split up the guards in four groups of three, one of them patrolling inside the mine together with the overseers, giving the miners (and the investigating party) a hard time. The rest of them is hanging around near the gate or patroling the area just like Eric mentioned above.
I found a good map of a small mine in the Net and placed the elevator to the Dark Cathedral in a sealed-off wing (few miners and guards, many places to hide) only attaineable via a concealed door, known to the cultists below and the cultist-guards above, who constantely (and perhaps to obviously) have an eye on it. I will add a second, unguarded entrance to the sealed wing with the elevator or directly to the dungeon below, to provide a good escape route and hiding place for my players. This one connects to the abandoned mine (#32 on the diamond lake map) near the old observatory.
Curious PC´s could stumble over this connection shortly before or after dealing with Filge.
I would prefer to have them discover it only in an emergency situation during 3FoE, or after the “crawl”, when they don´t need it anymore… :)
3) The Elevator
As mentioned above, I will use a concealed door, perhaps a self closing one, that leads to the elevator. Obvious to see and unguarded from the cultists side of the mine, but hard to find and frequently controlled from the other side, to keep curious miners away. It will look like a solid wooden partition from their side.
As far as the mine-guards belonging to the Hextor-Cult are concerned, I will leave them above ground most of the time, living together with (and constantly spying on) the other “normal” guards. I don´t know how to handle Ragnolin´s “evil” dwarfs and his foremen yet. Perhaps they all know about the cult or “something going on down there”and cooperate with the cultist guards, helping them to secretly deliver support-goods every now and then. Why? because they´re all evil and getting paid for it, of course!!!
Perhaps they transport the whole stuff inside a lorry to the elevator, or just carry it there in backpacks for camouflage reasons…?
I will definetively leave the elevator like it is, with the winch mechanism ON the elevator, mounted on a heavy chain or cable running down in the middle of the shaft. But the elevator will be at the bottom of the shaft, almost all the time. Theldrick managed to convince (or bullied?) Ragnolin to leave it down there, for security reasons and to affirm their partnership.
Only when new supplies are delivered, the cultist guards above ground alert the tiefling-guards at the bottom (perhaps throwing a stone down the shaft or yelling down a password).
This will deliver a good explanation for the tiefling guards beeing that inattentive and will provide the PC´s with many opportunity´s to ambush the tieflings without alerting the whole Hextor-Temple. (Some "able" PC´s could climb down the shaft or the cable in its center to surprise the guards below, maybe capturing them alive to interrogate them. Or the party could observe a new delivery of supplies taking place at the elevator, finding out the password.) This could lead to more subtle ways of invading the hextor-temple, instead of just kicking in the door and slaughtering everyone approaching. I realize, there are still the bells on the skeletons, a very nice idea in my opinion, but perhaps I will run the game without bells…
4) Errors
Unfortunatly, I´m not a very attentive reader (For that reason I appologize for mentioning things already handled elsewhere ) and havn´t even noticed them… But now, that they´re known (thanks, by the way!), where´s the deal?
5) Darkness
True, handling this (and handling the Vecna-Labyrinth) will be tough, when using battle mats, as I do, without letting the game down to a miniature-game. Fortunately all but one of my players PC´s somehow have access to darkvision (race, spells etc.) and will make use of it (poor Grimlocks). I think of granting the human fighter in my party a Ring of Darkvision (borrowed from Allustan or taken from one of the cultist-guards, who is a human, not a tiefling). At least for a while…:)
6) Kamikaze bad guys
It´s D&D and they ´re the bad guys after all. Besides they´re Hexorite Fanatics, Vecna Madmen and Grimlock Barbarians. Nevertheless I won´t handle them as stupid monsters. In my experience, the more you play the bad guys out to their full potential, and treat them as intelligent opponents regarding all there feats, spec. abilities and magic options, the more challenging and fun things get and the more good opportunities to Role-Play arise just by themselves. It´s all a matter of preparation time - unfortunately...
If the cultists see no chance to win, some of them might try to escape through the elevator shaft or through my escape route to # 32 on the diamond lake map. Perhaps they make it there and sneak away forever, or come back to haunt the players… As far as I understand, it´s only important to defeat the three main villains Theldrick, Grallak and the Faceless One (all three fanatics in their own way – but it might be interesting to let Theldrick - my favoured bad guy down there -flee the scene, without the book and the letter and other goodies of course, to come back later!), kill the Ebon Aspect and retrieve all the necessary information to follow on the adventure path.
7) One big long fight
Yes, much bloodshed! Perhaps I will shorten, some of the less important fights, not using all the tactical possibilities of a battlemap and miniatures. But I see no way around most of the fights, my six players need the XP´s to reach the recommended lvls. This advice usually worked out very well in my earlier Dungeon Adventures. I only (carefully) adjusted the critters (in numbers) to a group of six PC´s instead of four, left the main villains as they are and never had to worry about matters of balance, xp´s etc. Besides I don´t like side-treck adventures to reach appropriate lvl ´s in a campaign. In my opinion, they only distract players from the main story-line.
Hopefully I can manage to provide my players with some good opportunities to ”Role-Play” their characters nevertheless… religious fanatics provide colourfull villains anyway.
Greetings from “Old Europe” and Happy Gaming.
|
As a typical foreign “Dungeon-Lurker” I dare writing on these boards for the first time. Me and my whole “hard-boiled” crew of six adventurers want to say thank You Eric, Sean, James and the whole Dungeon (and Dragon!) Staff for Your wonderfull work! We´re using (almost exclusively, as far as support material is concerned!) every single one of Your great magazines since early 3.0, when we started to play D&D again. There´s always tons of good stuff to use (or just to think about and beeing inspired of!) in them. They are all worth every Euro, and I don´t understand all the complains on these boards. Both Magazines are lightyears above and beyond any “comparable” products I know on the European market.I very much appreciate the new high resolution web enhancements without room-numbers. It makes my live so much easier - no more messing around with mapping software - please don´t ever cancel this very usefull feature!
...
Well said, and absolutely true!
Not a single RPG-magazine can even think of reaching Dungeon and Dragon magazines!I think its cool if someone points out a discrepance in an adventure here on the boards - thats fine and helps others running it.
I just can't understand why people are so...so, well "unpleasant" when it comes to the AoW-Overload. Guys - this thing will be FOR FREE and Erik, James and the others DON'T HAVE TO GIVE THIS STUFF OUT to us, but they do it and put a lot of work into it as well, even if they have other things to manage! Anyway, I was led astray...
Great, great job on the magazines!
|
|
Dryder,
Absolutely. Don't peg me as a whiner on the overload thing. I'm just saying it's absense makes me hesitant to create plot around the campaign. Look at it this way, the overload section will be the 'campaign' section of some upcoming hardcover of the AP, so I'm content to wait as long as possible so that they get it right. I enjoy adding to plot to make the campaign deeper, so the problems with 3 faces are really an opportunity for creative license. But as long as the overload is still undelivered, it's a challenge for the future, not today.
|
|
Luke -
I wasn't "talking" about you. Yur point is clear and I know what you mean. Sorry, if I had offended you!
I meant a couple of other threads here, of which some posters I just can't understand...
Anyway - I have the luck of being able to start AoW earliest next year, so I have no problem waiting - and if I would be just about to start it, I wouldn't complain about how long it takes to get a HIGH QUALITY FREE enhancement either!
|
Luke -
I wasn't "talking" about you. Yur point is clear and I know what you mean. Sorry, if I had offended you!
I meant a couple of other threads here, of which some posters I just can't understand...
Anyway - I have the luck of being able to start AoW earliest next year, so I have no problem waiting - and if I would be just about to start it, I wouldn't complain about how long it takes to get a HIGH QUALITY FREE enhancement either!
The high quality FREE enchancement you speak of was suppose to appear in the actual magazine and many people discovered it wasn't there after they received or bought the issue. Thats why alot of people are "whinning" about it. For those that say we should have read the issue before purchasing it (on both the issues of the Overload and the errors in the adventure), I would like to point out that many stores sell the magazine with plastic bags on them and we cannot preview it without buying it.
I for one have been thrilled by the fact that members of the DUNGEON staff offer their comments on the various adventures on a regular basis. All the little tid bits, like the Mad Slasher tokens, to the indepth run down on the political situation in Diamond Lake are awsome. I'd love to see a thread about things cut from adventures because there just wasn't space.
When I read adventures as a DM, I try to see what my players will do, and I often ask difficult questions. The staff here has done an outstanding job of answering those question and have thus enhanced my game. To that I say My hat is off to you.
Keep up the great work.
ASEO out
The high quality FREE enchancement you speak of was suppose to appear in the actual magazine and many people discovered it wasn't there after they received or bought the issue. Thats why alot of people are "whinning" about it. For those that say we should have read the issue before purchasing it (on both the issues of the Overload and the errors in the adventure), I would like to point out that many stores sell the magazine with plastic bags on them and we cannot preview it without buying it.Luke -
I wasn't "talking" about you. Yur point is clear and I know what you mean. Sorry, if I had offended you!
I meant a couple of other threads here, of which some posters I just can't understand...
Anyway - I have the luck of being able to start AoW earliest next year, so I have no problem waiting - and if I would be just about to start it, I wouldn't complain about how long it takes to get a HIGH QUALITY FREE enhancement either!
As one of the "whiners", this is partly my complaint/point. There was no WAY I could preview issue 124, since it was in its bag at the store. The only preview I had for it was in the pages of Dragon, and that information was incorrect. So I was frustrated that information and features which were promoted in Dragon magazine did not appear in Dungeon 124.
Erik responded to my "whine" here on the boards and I see in Dungeon issue 125's editorial, too.
I look forward to the Overload, when it hits, as I am sure it will have the features I was looking for.
And if not, I guess I'll just have to "whine" some more.
|
|
Well, I didn't know it comes in a plastic bag...
Here in germany the magazine is only wrapped in plastic if some gadget (don't know if this is the correct word) is inside.
I understand that some people "whine" or complain if something is not as it was promised/written somewhere in the magazine and its ok if you post that here. However, some posters seem to get a hang for whining and kind of cultivate it!
Most of you guys are as anxious about the Overload as I am. You complaint once and that's it. Others complain and complain, and com....
We can't change it, so we have to wait. Its better to safe your energy for something more important than whininge (all the time).
There is a difference between whining and asking for clarification...
And for the mistakes in the adventures - hey, we all are humans. This fact alone allows us to make mistakes because we will never be perfect. For my part, that's exactly what I use these boards for - finding ways how to do away with some mistakes in the adventures. Its great that we have these boards!
Please put the Overload arguments back in the Overload thread.
This is an excellent and informative thread about the 3FoE. Thanks for all the comments, criticisms, and ideas.
Hey guys there are a few quirks with the second path but hey use it for what it worth and modify it to your group as needed; far as quick starts go this was an awesome adventure. I am currently running an Eberron gam eand it melded easily into our campaign. Yes i twiked it some and the info on campaign conversion was great i have been "DMing" for 15 years and these mags are great sources of info and make my job easier.Keep up the GREAT WORK and i can't wait to see the next installment.
Just want to insert my own praise for the new look and overall quality of the magazine... Great job, Erik and other staffers! I can see that Dungeon is definitely moving in wonderful, new directions. In particular, I love how Paizo now offers various enhancements and feedback on the web, sometimes even same-day! This is not something I could have ever gotten back when I was running "Lost Caverns of Tsojcanth" out of my junior high art classroom in the mid-80's. The advantages of this new Age of Information we are in seems to be making people a bit greedy. Everyone seems to be used to getting everything NOW... not later, not soon, but NOW, and Gawd help you if you don't get it to their specifications.
Now, that said, I am a subscriber. I don't get a chance to peruse the magazine before I buy it, and it sometimes arrives in my mailbox folded, ripped, or otherwise mutilated in some way, so it's not necessarily an advantage for me to have it mail-delivered each month. But regardless, I look forward to each issue with eager anticipation. I was enthralled with the Shackled City adventure path (I'm picking up my hardbound copy in a few hours! Yay!), even though it was not even remotely the most innovative or well-written D&D adventure I've ever read, run, or played. Likewise, I look forward to the Age of Worms adventures with equal fervor, and similarly I do NOT expect them to be perfect. I don't expect them to be cunning, crafty, or exceptionally clever. I've played, run, and dealt with murderous amounts of products that were shallow in the extreme, but the DM always gives the product his own unique flavor and spin. When the adventure includes great depth and saves me time, that's a bonus. I appreciate it that much more when it is. HOWEVER....
That said, I really do expect the magazine to be much more demanding when catching the errors in ALL of its published adventures and products. The number-crunching MUST be done correctly, or the DM will have to do it. And if I and others of my ilk have to calculate all the numbers ourselves, why am I running a prefab adventure? If I had the time, I might design my own campaigns and adventures for my players. But I don't, so I use prefabs. And I have a right to expect that those products are accurate. I pay money for a product, I have the right to expect that the makers of said product believe that it is finished to the very best of their ability when it goes out the door. I can appreciate one or two errors per adventure slipping through the cracks, but the sheer volume of penny-ante mistakes in basic stat blocks and such nonsense of late is ridiculous. All I ask is that the editors or play-testers, or whoever's job it is to make sure the adventures are ACCURATE, simply step up and do their jobs with both more dilligence and vigilance. I don't need the adventure to completely make sense on multiple levels -- it's a fantasy world, and there is a certain level of reality suspension -- I just want it to be as error free as possible before it's shelled out to the public.
Thanks for listening... don't forget the first half of this post was praise. I like Dungeon, but I don't think I'm wrong to think it could certainly be better, especially regarding quality control.
|
|
When I first skimmed the module my hopes were high as The Whipsering Cairn was excellent. The module itself is more of the linear dungeon kind, but sometimes players just want to batter stuff to death so I don't knock adventures for that. However, like others, I rapidly spotted lots of glaring mistakes. At first I thought I was misconstruing something due to the new DMGII stat block format but as we know now I wasn't, and there where I fairly high level of errors compared to what we have come to expect from Paizo.
However, we all know a hell of a lot is going on at Paizo at the moment so they might be somewhat overstretched. So mistakes happen, we all do it, particulalry under pressure. However, if I make mistakes at work I have to fix them for my customers (I work in IT so a bug list is usually sufficient at a pinch or an emergency fix release if it's a show stopper although testing should of....yadayadayada yawn etc).
Paizo have a problem with this as the mags are already printed so they can't fix them but for once I really feel that an errata pdf specifically for 3FoE is warranted. We have had errata's posted for less in the past, like when scaling the adventure was missing from Test of the Smoking Eye.
Several caveats though:
1) If Eric agrees and stops work on AoW Overload to produce the errata that's not my fault :)
2) I am running Shackled City AP at the moment, my party has just got back from The Lucky Monkey. Clealry I won't be running AoW until about 2007 by which time I will be waiting with baited breath for the AoW Harcover Compilation which will have all these errors fixed anyway, so my opninon is really quite pointless, at least for me and my group anyway :)
3) If I actually spent as much time fixing the errors myself and then posting them on the boards/net as I do whingeing on message boards I'd probably free up enough man weeks of time to write my own adventure path :)
I just wanted to mention that an inexperienced DM, such as myself, probably wouldn't catch a lot of the errors mentioned by various people above and thus leave themselves open to abuse by more experienced players. Dungeon has a certain amount of responsiblity here.
That said, the responses from Mr Mona have been extremely helpful and I'm thoroughly looking forward to infli-uh, running the adventure for the players!
I want to say that I too felt quite disappointed when I read Act 2. Especially since I loved the Whispering Cairn, it is definately one of my favorite adventures ever (especially for low-level parties (not too often that a party reaches 5th level without encountering a single orc,goblin or kobold)). The details were great, especially after I'd read the overload.
Still, my group of players aren't too serious, and although they weren't too motivated in going to the Dourstone mine (I felt like I had to give them a push) they did eventually and disregarded the lack of reasons to go there - after all, it's a game and meant to be fun (and they knew the adventure was going to take place down there). The lack of opportunities to rest is a problem, as is the lack of suggestions to what happens if the heroes go back to town to rest and return (what changes have been made).
Minor details are a bit annoying, and I'd like to point out a couple which I haven't seen anybody else mention:
-There is nothing demonic about the tieflings (only tattoos),
-The skeletons are wearing full plate but have move of 30',
-the lack of number of cultist fanatics (i think they are 6)
-the map of the dark cathedral shows the hallway to the citadel of Hextor to be 5' with a door on the end, but the map of the citadel shows a double door at the end of a 10' wide hallway...
-and what is the true knock code?
Also, I must say I had some problems with the elevator (3 characters had to fight 2 tieflings, 8 skeletons and 6 cultists before the others could get down).
I'm not complaining, but in case they make a hardcover they have to check this out (although I know it will probably be edited and proof-read a dozen times before that).
I also think there should be some more info on Ragnolin Dourstone. The adventure deals shortly with what happens when they talk to Balabar, but not Ragnolin.
I often feel pretty lazy because I'm using the adventure path with only slight modification. But the fact is that making a campaign of this quality takes a lot of time - and I just can't handle it. But if I don't like the way things are in Dungeon magazine, I simply change them to my liking (also to suit my groups favorite elements of D&D). So I don't think the adventure has to cover EVERY possible roleplay encounter, c'mon guys.
But still, I must say I was fairly disappointed with 3foe, especially compared to the whispering cairn.
YOu have PC's that follow exactly as an adventure is scripted? Please send them to my house because that never happens for me. I actually really like Faces even though I made some major changes. Which, by the way, we are allowed, and sometimes need to do. We are playing in Eberron in the Eldeen Reaches... had to do somehting about the Free City not being Sharn and all that. As far as the "errors", I know it's hard to say on thse boards, but lighten up a bit. Or change the weapons or whatever is botheirng you. I'm glad you ntoiced, I mad eit throguh the whole thing and never really noticed them. The one issue I had was that the adventure was a bit tough, I've had 2 deaths so far, and we haven't even been in the labyrinth. Best of luck. And oh yeah, the elevator thing is goofy, but just assume that soemone is going up and down for supplies or something.