Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
|
Oh, I couldn't agree more! I hated the handling of Denethor, although I liked the actor cast in the role. The problem was in the writing.Threadjack...
I always liked Denethor. I felt Denethor served as an example of what became of men who wrestled with Sauron, while Theodain of the lesser evil of Saruman. Theodain could be saved, Denethor was lost.
Peter Jackson pretty clearly did not read the same book as me where Denethor was concerned, since he turned him into a petulant child and carefully excised any scene that gave his madness context.
I should say that, in all fairness, MOST of Denethor's dialogue really is taken verbatim from the book. I just read the section last night where Faramir comes back to Minas Tirith and gets sent back out the next day by Denethor to lead the troops on the outer defenses (though not a suicide charge, like in the movie; in the book, they still held Osgiliath, the Causeway Forts, and the Rammath wall when Faramir returned).
That dialogue about him wishing Faramir had died and Boromir was alive, and the crushing "If I return, father, think better of me." "That will depend on the manner of your return."
All there in the book.
What undermines the character a bit is that the face-offs between Denethor and Gandalf in the movie are presented more like arguments (with Gandalf as clearly in the right), whereas in the book they are more like contests of will about who will lead the defense, and Denethor demonstrating to Gandalf that he already knows most or all of what Gandalf tries to dole out to him in bits and pieces, and that Gandalf is taking him for a fool.
In sum:
Denethor's rotten relationship with and treatment of Faramir is almost word-for-word from the book.
Denethor as an intelligent and strong-willed peer or rival of Gandalf is the part that doesn't really come through.
Also, IMO taking out the palantir revelation from Denethor removes the in-world explanation for how he really does know so much (rather than just acting like a know-it-all who is intentionally being obtuse in refusing Gandalf's advice and information), as well as the in-world explanation (given what we have already learned in the book about the effects of using a palantir on Saruman, Pippin, and Aragorn) for why he succumbs to despair and madness at the end.
I'd agree on the whole, but Westeros isn't our world by any stretch of the imagination. In fact as a species(and I stress, as a *species*), it's been therorized that we are facing a population problem forecasts possibly because we're finding our young women unappealing at an age when they are more likely to survive multiple child births over a long period of time. That said, Sansa also seems to be a practical clone of her mother- she got very little of the Stark look. Sure, it's a little creepy, but I can see him being attracted to her, even though I certainly wouldn't be on several levels.
I know where you are coming from Freehold DM, but it just struck me as a storyline that really didn't need telling. So many different directions it could have went instead. How about Littlefinger taking advantage of a vulnerable Catelyn after Ned's death? Still not a nice thing, but it would certainly aptly illuminate Littlefinger's capable powers of manipulation rather than taking advantage of a lonely, scared little girl. I know he is setting up Sansa as the new heir of Winterfell, but Martin could have done that a dozen ways.
Do I feel more inclined to despise Littlefinger after such a story arc? Yes, I do. Is this Martin's intention? Maybe. Granted, it does demonstrate the different notions of morality in the Middle Ages than present day. Maybe it's just Martin adding more colour to his world.
I have the feeling there is more to Littlefinger's name than meets the eye though. It's a touch appropiate, don't you think?
I may be way off too. :-{
I liked Littlefinger too, until he went all creepy with that Sansa thing. I wonder is his name a pun? Like Shorteyes for child molesters.
He's not a child molester. She had had her first moonblood, which makes her fit to be bedded and wedded. Not just biologically, but also by the laws and customs of the Seven Kingdoms.
One should not forget that the Seven Kingdoms are not meant to correspond to any nation that exists on Earth today, as it exists today.
The first recorded instances of laws governing the age of consent set it to 12 years, and before that, tradition usually set it to be the age when signs of puberty showed - menstruation for women and pubic hair for men. Since ASOIAF is set in a fantasy world that is somewhat modelled after the middle ages, it makes sense that the laws are similar. Especially since that fantasy world is quite gritty, mostly devoid of fairy-tale, rose-coloured glasses.
Even when we consider our world in the present day, she's not far from the average age of consent. Most countries set it somewhere between 13 and 16. Aberrations exist, like 12, 20, different ages depending on sexual orientation, or all extra-marital sex being illegal, but they're not the norm.
I think Sansa was around 13-14 in the novel around that time. I can understand marriages of conveinences in regards to joining noble blood, but Littlefinger puts the move on Sansa through attraction. It might have been "appropiate" in the day but just damn creepy thinking about it.
If she's 14 and sufficiently mature, I don't see anything creepy about it. She's old enough.
If she's 14 and sufficiently mature, I don't see anything creepy about it. She's old enough.
I hope you are talking about this in regards to the story. If not, what country are you from?
I know where you are coming from Freehold DM, but it just struck me as a storyline that really didn't need telling. So many different directions it could have went instead. How about Littlefinger taking advantage of a vulnerable Catelyn after Ned's death?
Did he have the chance for that, really? I be he might have if he had the chance. But then again, maybe not.
Still not a nice thing, but it would certainly aptly illuminate Littlefinger's capable powers of manipulation rather than taking advantage of a lonely, scared little girl.
Fourteen-year-olds aren't "little girls" any more.
I know he is setting up Sansa as the new heir of Winterfell, but Martin could have done that a dozen ways.
This makes most sense, though. You must realise that Littlefinger rarely does anything for a single reason. He's quite smart and able to kill lots of birds with very little stones.
In this case, he sets up a new hair of Winterfell, who happens to be the daughter of the women he loved/lusted for. She's probably similar enough to her mother to make Littlefinger want more than power.
Granted, it does demonstrate the different notions of morality in the Middle Ages than present day.
What are you talking about. I could go out on this very day, meet a fourteen-year-old, and have sex with her, without breaking any law.
Well, I would have to find one who wants to have sex with me, but if I do so, I can do it with her without breaking any law. Today. Not in the middle ages. Today.
I grant you that 14 is a bit too young for my tastes, and that in my country, there is a law that if someone over the age of 21 exploits a 14-15 year-old person's lack of capacity for sexual-determintion, that person could be convicted, if the 14-15 year-old complains to the authorities.
But if I would want a 14-year-old and not risk that possibility, I could go to one of the many countries where the age of consent is a flat 14. And if I want something even younger, I could go to Spain, where it's 13, same for Japan, or to some parts of Mexico, where it's 12.
So the book does not demonstrate the different notions of morality in different times, but also in different places.
I think it's very fitting that uses that storyline, as it fits the books perfectly.
I hope you are talking about this in regards to the story. If not, what country are you from?
I'm German. Here, the minimum is 14 or 16 (see my post above). 14-16 seems to be the norm on most continents.
I am politely bowing out of this conversation. Carry on, sirs.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
|
I'd agree on the whole, but Westeros isn't our world by any stretch of the imagination. In fact as a species(and I stress, as a *species*), it's been therorized that we are facing a population problem forecasts possibly because we're finding our young women unappealing at an age when they are more likely to survive multiple child births over a long period of time.
We're so far from a (lack of) population problem with the human race it isn't even funny. We could get shrunk down to a few million and rebound.
I'd agree on the whole, but Westeros isn't our world by any stretch of the imagination. In fact as a species(and I stress, as a *species*), it's been therorized that we are facing a population problem forecasts possibly because we're finding our young women unappealing at an age when they are more likely to survive multiple child births over a long period of time.We're so far from a (lack of) population problem with the human race it isn't even funny. We could get shrunk down to a few million and rebound.
I suppose that would depend on how many tall people with skills are left. Would basketball even survive as a sport if the population dropped that much? If we drop to a few hundred thousand, we might not even have any point guards left. That would be sad. We'd better make more...
I'd agree on the whole, but Westeros isn't our world by any stretch of the imagination. In fact as a species(and I stress, as a *species*), it's been therorized that we are facing a population problem forecasts possibly because we're finding our young women unappealing at an age when they are more likely to survive multiple child births over a long period of time.We're so far from a (lack of) population problem with the human race it isn't even funny. We could get shrunk down to a few million and rebound.
Beyond the fact that we were shrunk down to much less than that in the past (I think at one time, the human population was reduced to about 10000) and are still here, underpopulation is not a problem of the human species.
It is, however, a problem some of the human sub-groups face. Maybe not just yet, but birth-rates are receding for some and that could lead to problems in the future.
Those of you in New York City may be interested in this rather bizarre but intriguing piece of news.
Chef Tom Colicchio has created a number of dishes inspired by the series and HBO food trucks will be giving them out in NYC over the next few weeks before the TV show debuts on 17 April.
Those of you in New York City may be interested in this rather bizarre but intriguing piece of news.
Chef Tom Colicchio has created a number of dishes inspired by the series and HBO food trucks will be giving them out in NYC over the next few weeks before the TV show debuts on 17 April.
Neat! I've actually had lamprey pie before and thought it was pretty good. I'd definitely be interested in seeing what dishes Colicchio prepares.
A DANCE WITH DRAGONS passes 1,600 manuscript pages.
For comparison, A STORM OF SWORDS was 1,520 MS pages and 420,000 words. That must put ADWD well north of 430,000 words, making it one of the longest SFF novels ever written. The only ones that are longer that I know of are Peter F. Hamilton's THE NAKED GOD (470,000) and THE LORD OF THE RINGS (460,000).
Better get some reinforced bookshelves in.
Just tempts me to read 5 normal-length books instead.
+1,600
A DANCE WITH DRAGONS passes 1,600 manuscript pages.
For comparison, A STORM OF SWORDS was 1,520 MS pages and 420,000 words. That must put ADWD well north of 430,000 words, making it one of the longest SFF novels ever written. The only ones that are longer that I know of are Peter F. Hamilton's THE NAKED GOD (470,000) and THE LORD OF THE RINGS (460,000).
Better get some reinforced bookshelves in.
And it took Tolkien 12 years to write Lord of the Rings (plus a five year publication delay), so in comparison GRRM is a whirlwind wordsmith.
A DANCE WITH DRAGONS passes 1,600 manuscript pages.
For comparison, A STORM OF SWORDS was 1,520 MS pages and 420,000 words. That must put ADWD well north of 430,000 words, making it one of the longest SFF novels ever written. The only ones that are longer that I know of are Peter F. Hamilton's THE NAKED GOD (470,000) and THE LORD OF THE RINGS (460,000).
Better get some reinforced bookshelves in.
And it took Tolkien 12 years to write Lord of the Rings (plus a five year publication delay), so in comparison GRRM is a whirlwind wordsmith.
So, as slower paced writers go, he is one of the faster ones?
|
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 6
|
Wouldn't be shocked if Stephenson's recent books as long or longer. And yeah, he passed in to "too long" for me too, I read Cryptonomicon and then started passing on his books. I'd rather read more works than longer ones. It's not so much single long books as series composed of them - I'm not wowed by most series to begin with, so add to that the weight of a dozen normal novels, and I'll pick the dozen novels.
CRYPTONOMICON and QUICKSILVER are about 380,000 words, the other BAROQUE books are a fair bit shorter (about 300,000 each, I believe), so whilst they're long, they're not that long. No idea about ANATHEM though.
Amongst more recent fantasy books, the longest have been: THE WISE MAN'S FEAR by Pat Rothfuss (395,000 words), THE WAY OF KINGS by Brandon Sanderson (390,000 words) and the last few MALAZAN books by Steven Erikson, which have all clocked in somewhere around 365-380,000 words. Going over 400,000 words is considered such a huge step and a pain in the backside for the printers and binders that only the most mega-selling authors can contemplate it.
Brand new literary authors are generally told never to go over 100,000 words, and even fantasy authors are being told to try and reign it in around 200,000 at the most (Joe Abercrombie's last three books are about 200-220,000 each, and he's a pretty successful author for a newcomer).
WAR AND PEACE, the usual measuring stick for mega-long books, is about 550,000 words for comparison. ATLAS SHRUGGED is a shelf-destroying 650,000 though. But they can be published in single volumes because their authors are dead, and the lack of a royalty cut pays for the extra binding and production costs ;-)
So, as slower paced writers go, he is one of the faster ones?A DANCE WITH DRAGONS passes 1,600 manuscript pages.
For comparison, A STORM OF SWORDS was 1,520 MS pages and 420,000 words. That must put ADWD well north of 430,000 words, making it one of the longest SFF novels ever written. The only ones that are longer that I know of are Peter F. Hamilton's THE NAKED GOD (470,000) and THE LORD OF THE RINGS (460,000).
Better get some reinforced bookshelves in.
And it took Tolkien 12 years to write Lord of the Rings (plus a five year publication delay), so in comparison GRRM is a whirlwind wordsmith.
Well put :) But I think it's worth the wait for the added quality in both cases, though I think the wait was probably easier for Tolkien fans, because their expectations were based on the Hobbit (a great book, but not as good as its sequel, I think).
|
Wouldn't be shocked if Stephenson's recent books as long or longer. And yeah, he passed in to "too long" for me too, I read Cryptonomicon and then started passing on his books. I'd rather read more works than longer ones. It's not so much single long books as series composed of them - I'm not wowed by most series to begin with, so add to that the weight of a dozen normal novels, and I'll pick the dozen novels.
I am the exact opposite, I much prefer a nice long book to a short one any day.
Most short books I read I feel the as if the story is rushed and lacking.
As an example a short novel that is loved by many but hated by myself is A Wizard of Earthsea, I absolutely hated that book. I felt it was rushed and there was very little actual good storytelling in it.
Though I do love Discworld novels, Terry Pratchett is very good at fitting a good story in such a short novel.
A true master of the craft can fit a quality story into 4 or 5 pages. *Love* the short story format in general.
Some of my best reads have been short stories. Always thought it was Stephen King's best format. Even my fave author, Jack Vance, I felt did best with short stories. I keep avoiding those "SciFi Best anthologies" though. They always seem to focus on depressing stories. Woo Hoo, end of mankind, weee.
Has Mr Martin done the short story thing? I might give him a shot again if he has.
Greg
|
A true master of the craft can fit a quality story into 4 or 5 pages. *Love* the short story format in general.Some of my best reads have been short stories. Always thought it was Stephen King's best format. Even my fave author, Jack Vance, I felt did best with short stories. I keep avoiding those "SciFi Best anthologies" though. They always seem to focus on depressing stories. Woo Hoo, end of mankind, weee.
Has Mr Martin done the short story thing? I might give him a shot again if he has.
Greg
Martin's got a series of novellas set in the same world as A Song of Ice and Fire (I believe 80 years or so prior to ASoIaF), though I'm not sure where to find them. The first one is called The Hedge Knight.
The Hedge Night series are longer than short stories, but really good nonetheless. The first one was published in the Legends I anthology, titled The Hedge Knight. The second is published in Legends II, called The Sworn Sword. And the latest was published in the Warriors anthology. I can't recall off the top of my head what that one was called. The Mystery Knight, I think it's called?
Anyway, Martin started in short story format for science fiction along with some fantasy, decades before ASoIaF came out. Some of that is really good too. Lots of it have been caught up in anthologies of one sort or another. Look up Sandkings for an example of one of them and you'll find a number of his anthologies that include that story amongst several others.
Has Mr Martin done the short story thing? I might give him a shot again if he has.
There is a school of though that Martin was the finest writer of SF short fiction in the 1970s and early 1980s. He won multiple Hugos for his short fiction in that time. Before the SONG OF ICE AND FIRE novels, he was probably best-known for co-creating the WILD CARDS series of interlinked short stories and mosaic novels.
His most heavily-lauded stories are SANDKINGS, THE WAY OF CROSS AND DRAGON, NIGHTFLYERS, A SONG FOR LYA, MEATHOUSE MAN, THE PEAR-SHAPED MAN and PORTRAITS OF HIS CHILDREN, along with the ASoIaF prequel novella THE HEDGE KNIGHT. These can all be found in his collection DREAMSONGS (sometimes published in two volumes due to its size), which is well worth a look.
Has Mr Martin done the short story thing? I might give him a shot again if he has.There is a school of though that Martin was the finest writer of SF short fiction in the 1970s and early 1980s. He won multiple Hugos for his short fiction in that time. Before the SONG OF ICE AND FIRE novels, he was probably best-known for co-creating the WILD CARDS series of interlinked short stories and mosaic novels.
His most heavily-lauded stories are SANDKINGS, THE WAY OF CROSS AND DRAGON, NIGHTFLYERS, A SONG FOR LYA, MEATHOUSE MAN, THE PEAR-SHAPED MAN and PORTRAITS OF HIS CHILDREN, along with the ASoIaF prequel novella THE HEDGE KNIGHT. These can all be found in his collection DREAMSONGS (sometimes published in two volumes due to its size), which is well worth a look.
Sounds like Dreamsongs is where I need to start looking. I was only a fan of the first WildCards book. Much like Thieves' World, after the first collection, the others did not satisfy me as much.
A true master of the craft can fit a quality story into 4 or 5 pages. *Love* the short story format in general.
Hemingway did that much in six words -
"For sale: Baby shoes. Never used."
And A DANCE WITH DRAGONS is done.
The final manuscript has been submitted, meaning the book will comfortably hit the 12 July release date with no problems.
And how many more books are planned at this point?
And how many more books are planned at this point?
I think GRRM plans two more.
Personally, I sort of expect zero more.
Personally, I sort of expect zero more.
...at east within the next five years
What I don't get is this: He had originally planned SEVEN books. When he hit the fourth one, it was too big, so he split it into two, a Feast for Crows and a Dance with Dragons. Shouldn't that mean we are now at a planned EIGHT books, of which FIVE have been done, meaning THREE more to come?
What I don't get is this: He had originally planned SEVEN books. When he hit the fourth one, it was too big, so he split it into two, a Feast for Crows and a Dance with Dragons. Shouldn't that mean we are now at a planned EIGHT books, of which FIVE have been done, meaning THREE more to come?
Good question... maybe since his books are so long anyway, he just integrated the plot into Dance and the next two books?
Anyway, I think the next book will come out sooner, unless he hits another Mereneese Knot.
What I don't get is this: He had originally planned SEVEN books. When he hit the fourth one, it was too big, so he split it into two, a Feast for Crows and a Dance with Dragons. Shouldn't that mean we are now at a planned EIGHT books, of which FIVE have been done, meaning THREE more to come?
Excellent question, and one that a lot of people seem to miss.
The short answer is that AFFC wasn't split in half, it was split into thirds: the first two-thirds were published as AFFC and the last third has been merged with A DANCE WITH DRAGONS (which was always the next book in the series) to create the present book.
The longer answer goes like this:
Originally ASoIaF was planned as a trilogy, consisting of three books: A GAME OF THRONES, A DANCE WITH DRAGONS and THE WINDS OF WINTER. AGoT ended up being three very large novels (yes, the original GoT was supposed to include everything up to the end of ASoS in one novel, and yes, that was crazy) instead. When Martin completed A STORM OF SWORDS in 2000, he was ready to move onto A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, which was now Book 4. His original plan had always been to rejoin the action in ADWD five years after the end of ASoS, to allow the child characters to grow up, the dragons to grow and so on.
He wrote for over a year with this plan in mind and it didn't work. He ended up with a book with too many flashbacks and conversations at the Wall which were basically saying, "Hey, remember when the wildlings showed up and we thought the Others were an imminent threat and then nothing happened for five years? What was up with that?" So he junked it, the whole thing, at least a few hundred pages of completed material, and started again with a new book he called A FEAST FOR CROWS, which he announced at the Philadelphia Worldcon in September 2001.
The plan was that AFFC would pick up immediately after ASoS and 'fill in the blanks' in the originally-planned narrative gap. He then ran into another problem, namely that characters like Brienne, Sam, Jaime, Cersei, Arya, Sansa, Asha and the new Dornish cast benefitted from the change, but other characters like Daenerys, Jon, Bran and Tyrion did not. Basically, Brienne and company had stories that 'needed' to be told at this point and Daenerys and company did not. Dany and co. didn't need any 'filler' stories, they were ready to get on with business, even if that was right away rather than after a five-year gap. So, in 2001-05 he wrote a lot of material for Team Brienne and not much for Team Daenerys. He was already drawing a distinction between the two character groupings whether he realised it or not.
As a result, when AFFC got too long to publish in one novel, what had actually happened is that he'd written a 'linking' narrative for the characters in Westeros but had actually been writing the 'next big plot movement' stuff for Daenerys and co, stuff that he'd not been planning to write until he reached the new A DANCE WITH DRAGONS, now the fifth book in the series. This made the split very easy, but it also created a huge timeline problem: Dany and co's stories were now out of synch with events back in the south of Westeros, particularly with regards to characters travelling from Westeros to meet Dany in Slaver's Bay. That has created enormous timeline problems, the fabled Meereenese Knot, which Martin has mashed his fingers bloody trying to untangle over the last few years, but seems to have finally done it.
The good news is that this also explains why AFFC was the quietest book in the series so far. In theory, ADWD should be busier, more epic (it's certainly a hell of a lot longer: more than half again the size of AFFC) and more like the first three books. Now we just need to see if he's finally managed to make it all fit together and make sense.
Thank you so much for the information. It explains a lot of what I saw as weird, especially the very young protagonists and their unlikely growth (Cersei is really going to wreck things, so...)
Hrm. I still don't think that Brienne's story and the Iron Isles stuff really "needed" to be told.
The Greyjoys seem to be heading for a very big role, IMHO. Agreed on Brienne, though.
Brienne's story is debatable. It's 'nice' (if that's the right word) to get closure on certain story elements, and see others being set up: the Hound is (probably) still alive, Beric is dead, the Brotherhood Without Banners has split apart, Lady Stoneheart is a crazy maniac, a load more of the Brave Companions are killed, we find out what happened to Pod etc. Whether any of that is plot-essential remains to be seen.
I know that, due to the characters being scattered all over the place meaning that the plot would not be cohesive, GRRM wanted AFFC to have a theme linking it and the ruins of war and the crows picking over the remains was something he wanted to get across strongly, whether that's the ironborn preying on the Reach whilst the Tyrells are distracted, the shabby politics under Cersei's reign, the rise of religious fundamentalism in the aftermath of war and Brienne's journey through the shattered warzone. However, ASoIaF is arguably more plot-driven than theme-driven (despite themes of power and authoritarianism and the power of law versus that of might being prominent in the first three books) and a theme-driven book could not replace the more relentless plot progression of the first three books.
The Iron Island chapters absolutely were essential, however. They form an important prelude to A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Okay, we probably didn't need so many mini-chapters from different POVs, but what happened to Asha and Victarion sets up ADWD.
Minor spoilers:
the Hound is still alive
Anyone else hold truck with the wild theory...
I can't wait to see what happens to Arya in the final books...
The Iron Island chapters absolutely were essential, however. They form an important prelude to A DANCE WITH DRAGONS. Okay, we probably didn't need so many mini-chapters from different POVs, but what happened to Asha and Victarion sets up ADWD.
I just could have lived without all those joyless chapters about Aeron Greyjoy. Likewise, the Brienne chapters were boring as hell in their most part and felt deeply pointless with the ending we got. Yeah, we got little endings for a lot of minor characters and a confirmation of the survival of one, but, wow, does it ever suck to follow a character on a quest which we know is not going anywhere.
Minor spoilers:
** spoiler omitted **
the Hound is still alive** spoiler omitted **
I think you misunderstand me.
@Magnuskn
He does have an ace in the whole:
In addition (somewhat minor ADWD-clarifying point):
|
|
@MagnusknHe does have an ace in the whole:
** spoiler omitted **
I...really wouldn't bet on that working. It could but, well...
Thanks Wert! Been looking for that since one of your country's Midland babes told me about it.
Game of Thrones Monopoly Set. :P
I had some input into this. The Waterworks = The Drowned God was one of my ideas, though sadly the Drowned God turning out to be Cthulu wasn't.