Put me on record as saying that the US had no business getting involved in either the Bosnian War or the Kosovo War.
The reasons we did intervene are several, but I don't think anyone should overlook three big ones:
The desire of the imperialists in our government to intimidate the Russians
The military-industrial complex’s need for wars to justify ridiculous defense budgets
Clinton's need to distract people from domestic scandals and failings (this being especially true in the case of the Kosovo War)
As for ethnic cleansing- our Nazi-loving Croat allies did that to Serbs in territory controlled or claimed by Croats. I see no moral superiority on our side, quite frankly.
In regards to the OP's initial post- you might not like the decision to cancel certain classes, but it is NOT Fascism. Fascism is a specific ideology, created in Italy after the Great War (of course it had its admirers and imitators elsewhere, and the intellectual trends that contributed to its development existed in other parts of Europe as well). It is not a word for 'things progressives have decided they dislike this week.'
James Jacobs wrote:
I get the impression that Distant Worlds is going to have a certain planterary romance vibe. Should we expect to see some material inspired by ERB, Otis Adelbert Kline, Leigh Brackett, etc.?
Alice Margatroid wrote:
Yes, Alice, I'm heterosexual. I'm sure that you are right- I don't notice the absence because homosexuality is not as relevant to my own life, my own experiences. I hardly know any gay folks.
Not noticing/caring about the absence of gay NPCs is not the same as objecting to the inclusion of gay NPCs.
PS-You write that some of my examples are unrelated. Examples of what? I'm not sure what you mean.
Cory Stafford 29 wrote:
I could do with out this type of stuff. It has absolutely no place in an RPG. The game is supposed to be about having fun, not about some people trying to push personal agendas.
If they had simply made no mention of it, that wouldn't have phased me. It's not as if I do something for fun (read a novel, watch a film, go to a party, play sports, go camping, go shooting, etc) and suddenly stop having fun to ask myself- 'Ewan, where are the gay people?'
As it is, I don't think they've gone too far with it. If I start to feel as if they are preaching, I'll quit buying their books.
Bill Dunn wrote:
You seem a bit confused.I can only assume that you missed some stuff upthread, so I'll summarize for you.
As I have stated several times now, I don't object to Paizo's inclusion of homosexual NPCs in published materials.
I would not be interested in paying them to publish a politically correct setting, but published Golarion is not what I'd call PC . :)
Geraint asked me specifically about what I would run in a game for children, NOT what I think Paizo should publish. You seem to have conflated the two.
I hope this post has cleared up your confusion.
Yes, there would be a difference for me, my family, and my friends with young kids.
The reasons I would not include it in a children's game include:
respect for the values, rights, authority of parents
concern for the innocence and impressionability of young kids
my personal views on morality and sex
Purism...In D&D? :()It's as impure as a slatterny trull.
The game developed out of a crazy combination of wargaming, platonic solids, fantasy/sci fi/weird fiction, old horror flicks, myths and legends from around the world, ancient and medieval history, dinosaurs, 70s kung fu mania, plastic Hong Kong toys, and other assorted strangeness.
I get that some people don't like high tech stuff in their fantasy worlds, but I don't get why anybody would object to Paizo publishing materials on Numeria (or, not so high tech, Alkenstar).
I don't see a reason why things like sexual orientation should work differently in D&D settings than in the real world.
Normative heterosexual sexual orientation is a fact of biology.
Other orientations may have a significant biological component.*
*(Heterosexual attraction is clearly rooted in our biology. Babymaking sex drive= not dying out, passing on your genes, etc. The way in which this primal drive asserts itself may also be reinforced or informed by culture, of course.
I'm inclined to accept the 'born that way' argument for most gay folks. It makes sense. That said, the jury is still out on whether homosexuality is caused by nature or nurture. I suspect, like so many other things, it is BOTH hereditary and environmental. Note that the expression of many genetic traits is influenced by enviornmental factors.)
I agree with you- the biological differences are going to cause confusion and 'strange feelings' in most people who are sex-swapped by a magic item or curse.
Of course, if a DM has a very different view of how sexuality works, he may come up with wholly different answers to the question.
Off topic- Golarion needs Jannissaries.
Yeah, Ottoman court/palace politics could be a good source of inspiration for some types of adventures in the setting.
James Jacobs wrote:
The thing with a Numeria AP is that it'd turn off a lot of players, I fear... which is a damn shame. Worse, though, is my fear that even if we do 10 "classic" fantasy APs and then on 11 we do a Numeria with promises to return to the classic model with number 12 that there'll be a mass freak out and subscription bailout and scorched earth. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But nevertheless... it's gonna be a long while before we get to Numeria in Pathfinder Adventure Path.
Really? That bad, huh?
What about just doing a single module (of the common length) set there, rather than a full-on AP? You could test the waters that way. No doubt this has already occured to you, but I thought I'd put it out there anyway.
Based on my conception of PF gods, I don't think I'd allow a homosexual paladin of Erastil. I imagine that most other potential patrons wouldn't care about his orientation, so long as he behaved in a LG fashion. If the gods in question, or the particular tradition in question, requires chastity, that simplifies things. IMO this stuff is more likely a matter of cultural variation than of divine opinion.
Going further with GBLT material in the setting, there might be gods with transsexual eunuch priests.
I'd probably save self-castration for homebrew. It might freak some people out. It doesn't really bother me, though.
If Paizo published a few transsexual/transgendered NPCs, whether eunuchs or 'equipped', I would be just fine with that.
I don't see it as odd; it's just not your view.
Not everyone agrees with your views on homosexuality, or on what is appropriate for children. This is most definitely an issue where YMMV applies. If he feels that homosexual (or any sexual) relationships are not kid-friendly by his standards, that's his call.
If I ran a game for any of the kids I know, I'd eliminate sexuality or tone it down to nothing more than a kiss for the princess after she has been rescued. I would wholly exclude homosexuality. This is a question of age appropriate material, but also of respect for parental authority. I would not want to step on the toes of any parents; especially as said parents would most likely be my relatives or friends.
Matthew Morris wrote:
I took this as mild sarcasm.
Just to back you up:
Some schools in our country used to try hard to get left handed kids to use their right hands for writing.
If Wikipedia can be believed, this is still common practice in some Asian countries.
So, yes, there have been attempts to fix left-handedness.
Whether you count coercing a kid to use his off hand as 'persecution'...well, that's up to you.
Hey, as long as it works both ways then the conversational tone will remain civil. :P
With you and I, that's possible. I don't always agree with you, but I do respect your intelligence and forthrightness.
How common is concubinage in Golarion? Are there palaces filled with harem girls?
I recently read a book about gender identity and sexual orientation in Thailand, and learned that there was once a ban on female-female relations among the Siamese royal concubines. The reasoning seems to have been not so much based on a concern for sexual mores as it was a desire to prevent close alliances that could harm the king or otherwise upset politics.
This might have some application to a country someplace in Golarion.
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
I'd rather discuss it in another forum entirely. We both know that any such thread here will simply be trolled and flamed over and over again, until one of the mods comes along to clean it up. And no, I don't mean trolled or flamed by either of us. :)
Contact me and we'll set something up.
Let's get back on the main topic, as per PMG's direction.
Well, I hope that I am. Of course, I could be proved wrong at any published book, but to date I haven't yet found anything else as, as you might put it, bludgeoning over the head. :P
For the most part, neither have I.
That's why I am a happy customer.
BTW, let me thank you for taking the time to read and understand my posts, and for being respectful and considerate. You set a good example for all of us in doing so.
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
I think that you are wrong about what the First Amendment actually means- but I also think that the federal courts have often been wrong about this in the past.
We should probably discuss that legal issue elsewhere, though. If you are so inclined, let me know.
I'm pretty sure it's from Rise of the Runelords.
You may be right about the maturation of the company and product line.
Varisian Wanderer wrote:
Yes! just like this. This is why I am fine with the inclusion of gay characters in published materials. They aren't hitting us over the head with it, and they aren't pushing a pro-gay OR anti-gay agenda. They haven't gone to the extreme of listing sexual orientation in every character description. It's not 'in your face.'
Hannah from Sandpoint.
Her shop is # 45 on the map key, if that helps.
We have very similar views on this , then.
As noted, I am not going to boycott them over a single Neutral Good abortion provider NPC. I have written that if that sort of thing became common, it would cause problems for me, and for others. I think that abortion should be simply ignored in published materials.It's a political hot potato, and its inclusion doe not jive well with the PG-13 approach they want for the game. Better to leave it out.
I make no similar argument against gay NPCs. My position from the beginning has been that it's perfectly fine to include them; just don't transform the game materials into some kind of screed on gay rights.Paizo has handled things well thus far. They are a long, long way from printing screeds. I simply made a cautionary statement. I used Blue Rose as an example of a game that, IMO, seemed to 'shout' a certain political/social agenda.
You are not usually negative or hostile. Sometimes I feel that you don't thoroughly read others' posts before responding- but no one is perfect.There is a difference between honest misunderstandings and deliberate personal attacks or trolling.
I wasn't referring to 'pro-choice' people. I was referring to an NPC 'abortion provider.'I neither condemend nor advocated legalized abortion in the real world, nor made any comment as to how abortion should be handled in home games. I simply said that Pazio should avoid the topic in published materials, because many of their customers have strong views about it(witness your own reaction to the topic).
If you prefer it, I can use that term in our discussion. I expect that you will give me similar consideration in the future.
Do you understand my point about why abortion is a hot button issue that should probably be avoided in future products?
Well, when they start spending too much time/energy on those topics, just let me know.
I take it you that have actually read my posts, and are aware that I am generally happy with their work.
I should be considered as 'middle porridge' on the main topic discussed in this thread.
The negative atmosphere of these forums tends to shut down anything like a rational or civil discussion.
I'm sorry to have to explain this, but using another politically loaded term like "abortionist" is like calling an African American the N-word. It is insensitive, and I've asked you to please stop referring to people who are pro-choice in such a fashion. It is loaded political term made to sound like people who are pro-choice are for the abortion of fetuses when in fact most of us are not. We prefer the option to that of over restriction. Please refrain from misidentifying.
You are mistaken.
Abortionist is a noun. I am using it in the sense of a person who actually performs abortions. That should be crystal clear from my post.
Pro-choice is not a noun, but an adjective. I have never used it to refer to any NPC. Nor have I made negative comments about anyone here who might hold such views.
Indeed, you don't even know what my personal views on abortion in the real world might be. For all you know, I have a strong pro-choice viewpoint
You need to go back and re-read my posts, please.
I fully acknowledge that there are pro-life and pro-choice gamers (and , I'm sure gamers who don't have strong views, or whose views are complex and fall between the two poles on this subject). That's one of the main reasons why Paizo should not publish more abortionist (abortion provider if you prefer) NPCs. It's a hot button political issue that should simply be left out of the published materials.
That is not the proper term. The proper term is "Pro-Choice". Please stop labeling others needlessly.
You just inserted an overtly political label.
Thank you for proving my point. Paizo should not have included the character as written, and should avoid such 'statements' in the future.
Can we stray away from labels like "abortionist" while we're at it. :(
That's the proper term.
I would prefer that Paizo had stayed away from the topic, period.
I am not telling people how to handle these things in their home games; I am commenting on published materials, marketing, and editorial policies.
Oh, and why are you responding to one of my posts? Does this mean that we are now on 'speaking terms'?
If a person states that he is just fine with the inclusion of gay NPCs, but would not wish to see Golarion go as far as the setting for Blue Rose- he is labelled a bigot.
If a person says that he does not care how others handle hot button political issues like abortion in their home games, but would prefer that Paizo avoided apparent political messages like NG abortionists in the future...he's called an 'anti-abortion crusader ' (and all without anyone even asking him what his personal views on abortion might be).
It's sad that there is such an atmosphere of hatred, intolerance, and bigotry on these forums.
Alice Margatroid wrote:
Bachelor Snuff is not an abortofacient, so there is no comparsion. Apples and oranges. I don't think it really needed to be on the list, though.
Now, as for your attempt to draw me into a real-world political debate (which I will not have here)...flagged for trolling.
Alice Margatroid wrote:
Not quite. Night Tea is a drug or poison- not a character. There is a clear difference. I think that Night Tea is a dubious and unnecessary addition to the equipment list, but it is not in your face and objectionable like the inclusion of a good aligned abortionist.
You asked about a hypotehtical evil aligned abortionist. I would actually be against that as well, although it would be harder to know if it should count as propaganda. Allow me to explain.
I'm not aware of anyone who claims that an evil person could NOT perform abortions, but a great many people do claim that abortion is murder and therefore an evil action. A good-aligned abortionist therfore seems calculated to offend a whole lot of people.
Now, you might argue that making her evil would have also been a politcal statement. Let us grant you that.
Why include abortionists in the game at all?
It does not fit the PG-13 feel they are supposedly going for in their products.
This is a prime example of the sort of thing that should be left out of the official books. It's way too controversial, and no matter how they handle it, they may offend a lot of people. We arem't just talking about lifestyle, we are talking about something millions of Americans consider to be murder. That's a big deal. I think Paizo would be most unwise to publish more NPCs like Hannah. One might be excused, but if a pattern is seen to develop, the reaction could be very bad.
It is still a very poor marketing move, IMO. If that sort of thing becomes common, I will no longer buy Paizo products. Others have also expressed concerns about this political content.
Oh, and I flagged you for writing that people who don't agree with your view on this matter are immature. No one called you any names. You should return the favor, Mr. Watson.
Gawainha the elf druid lost her timber wolf buddy to a fall ( 100 foot drop off a sheer wall of ice, landing on jagged rocks), but she later befriended an oversized 'ice gecko'. First she had to teach it not to try to eat the gnome.
Frederick the Blue Lizard
I added partially functional heating, water, ventilation, and food delivery systems to the dungeon, courtesy of ancient technology/magic.
Vance rocks my world.
Anyone who wants to get a sense of the roots of the game has only to browse Appendix N.
Of course, fantasy/SF/weird literature is only part of the picture. Wargaming, medieval history, ancient myths,pop culture paleontology, horror movies, comic books, etc were all part of the mix that spawned and nourished D&D. Gugax describes most of that at the beginning of the appendix, in fact.
We seem to have similar views on these matters- no doubt as a result of reading the same sources.
I'd say it's an eclectic mixture, with a extra-large helping of Swords and Sorcey themes. It also includes some Epic Fantasy tropes.
IME, it tends to play S&S at low levels and becomes either epic or just 'superheroes' at higher levels.
I don't think there's a single right way to play the game, of course! I lean towards grittier, lower powered stuff. I do enjoy a change of pace now and then, though, and epic fantasy certainly works for me.
D&D/PF works well for comic/absurdist fantasy too. :)
The White wrote:
@ TOZ. Fantasy in this case meaning High Fantasy, generally something akin to Tolkien. You know, that style of setting that 90% of D&D games have been set in since it began. It is generally what the word fantasy means unless there is a different context in play
I tend to disagree. Published D&D has included, from the early years (I'm talking mid '70s through the early 80s) dinosaurs, kung Fu monks, psionics, alien spacecraft, boom sticks, Cthulhu, dimension hopping, mushroom people, fearless vampire hunters,color coded dragons, a certain gunslinging paladin-wizard, various slime monsters straight out of 50s sci fi, old comic book stuff, B&W Hollywood horror flicks, Greek mythology, and a whole lot of other things. The game was a laundry list of things that Gygax and his friends liked. It's always been a weird, pulpy melange. And the things I mentioned show up in TSR published, official products.
I'm not even getting into homebrew or third party stuff.
Of course, it might be your experience of actual play is quite different from mine. As always, YMMV.
I think that Tolkien's works have had a big impact on the game mainly in the lineup of 'player races', in the ranger class, and in several monsters (orcs...cough). Beyond that? Not all that much seems to have been drawn from Tolkien. Most D&D rules and setting assumptions seem to derive from either war gaming concepts or swords and sorcery pulp fantasy (REH, Jack Vance, Fritz Lieber).
Kevin Andrew Murphy wrote:
You know, that's a damn good point! :)
I keep any actual hanky panky off-screen/fade to black, mainly as a matter of good taste and because I don't find that sort of 'sexy' roleplaying interesting.
I'm definitely down with the good old harlot encounters table, though. It fits the somewhat gritty fantasy I often like to run. I have used brothels, whores, pimps, etc. in play. One session even involved the PCs rescuing a young girl from a brothel.
I would not actually use a graphic portrayal of a sexual assault in play, for reasons of good taste (and because half my players are women). That sort of thing has been implied a few times, mainly in the context of horror games. I don't use it much.
I've seen a couple of the PCs in my all-male Pendragon game do some bad things...But that's 'off screen', too.
In a happier sense, love, romance, starting a family, and so on have been part of several games I've run. PCs have had sweethearts, wives, and children.
Given all that, I think I've only ever had one gay NPC. There might have been others, but I can't recall any. I should probably have had at least a couple by now, if only for the sake of 'realism.'