ewan cummins 325's page

IMO, it's either a dagger or a short sword. It ought to be S/P, but that should be true for a lot of bladed weapons.

Put me on record as saying that the US had no business getting involved in either the Bosnian War or the Kosovo War.

The reasons we did intervene are several, but I don't think anyone should overlook three big ones:

The desire of the imperialists in our government to intimidate the Russians

The military-industrial complex’s need for wars to justify ridiculous defense budgets

Clinton's need to distract people from domestic scandals and failings (this being especially true in the case of the Kosovo War)

As for ethnic cleansing- our Nazi-loving Croat allies did that to Serbs in territory controlled or claimed by Croats. I see no moral superiority on our side, quite frankly.

In regards to the OP's initial post- you might not like the decision to cancel certain classes, but it is NOT Fascism. Fascism is a specific ideology, created in Italy after the Great War (of course it had its admirers and imitators elsewhere, and the intellectual trends that contributed to its development existed in other parts of Europe as well). It is not a word for 'things progressives have decided they dislike this week.'

There are several other 'easter eggs' like that in Oerthian nomenclature; Urnst for Ernest, Ulek for Luke, Drawmij for Jim Ward, and so on.

(If you already knew that- good for you, Greyhawk fan!)

:)

I think that I get Perrenland (Steve Perren?), but what are the allusions in Sunndi and Idee?

Gary Gygax's daughters are named Cindy and Heidi.

Was 'Clydwell Keep' a Gygaxian allusion to Clyde Caldwell? Sort of like Perrenland, Sunndi, or Idee?

Or am I reading to much into this stuff?

:)

It's got to be Pharasma for me. I like that the death deity is not evil. Death itself is not evil- it just is. I also like that she has aspects of rebirth and fate. It all ties together quite nicely.

Yes, but there's also a lot of inspiration taken from more modern writers, like Dan Simmons.

Kewl beans.

I'm running B/X D&D these days. Maybe I'll convert Distant Worlds to Basic/Expert rules.

Cthulhudrew wrote:

I'd be happy just to see a single Pathfinder length one-shot adventure/module for Numeria, myself. I could definitely see how a whole AP would turn people off, but a single module would allow those of us sci-fantasy nuts to enjoy ourselves, and those not so inclined could continue to get their regular fantasy fix.

Come to think of it, with Distant Worlds coming up soon, that would be a great way to do some kind of Numeria tie-in. That spaceship had to come from somewhere, after all.

True... but Distant Worlds really focuses on Golarion's Solar System, and the spaceship in Numeria came from a long way beyond Golarion's system. There's certainly SOME stuff that we'd use in Distant Worlds for a Numeria AP, but not as much as one might initially suspect.

I get the impression that Distant Worlds is going to have a certain planterary romance vibe. Should we expect to see some material inspired by ERB, Otis Adelbert Kline, Leigh Brackett, etc.?

That's also because you are (assumedly) heterosexual. :)

Some of your examples are pretty unrelated, but for me personally, it does stand out if you don't have homosexual characters, even if they're playing minor roles. It would stand out for me if there were no interracial relationships* or no Asians or Africans**. Obviously context plays a role, and I don't see a point in needlessly adding a gay character for the sake of having a gay character. But as window dressing? Why not? It's harmless. It might stand out as strange or unnatural to you... but to others, it speaks of their reality. Well, minus the devils and dragons.

Personally I would love to see heterosexuality and homosexuality being given equal amounts of emphasis in the real world. If you see a girl and a guy walking down the street holding hands, nobody would even look twice. If you see two guys or two girls doing the same, immediately there is attention. In my ideal world... there wouldn't be any. Hopefully one day!

* I mean this more in the sense of Varisian x Shoanti, rather than Human x Dwarf.

** Some campaign settings, of course, are excluded from this, but Golarion is not.

Yes, Alice, I'm heterosexual. I'm sure that you are right- I don't notice the absence because homosexuality is not as relevant to my own life, my own experiences. I hardly know any gay folks.

Not noticing/caring about the absence of gay NPCs is not the same as objecting to the inclusion of gay NPCs.

Note
- If I were to I see two men holding hands, I would probably guess that they were gay, but there are other explanations. I've been to countries where it's not so unusual for two friends of the same sex to hold hands in public.

PS-You write that some of my examples are unrelated. Examples of what? I'm not sure what you mean.

I could do with out this type of stuff. It has absolutely no place in an RPG. The game is supposed to be about having fun, not about some people trying to push personal agendas.

If they had simply made no mention of it, that wouldn't have phased me. It's not as if I do something for fun (read a novel, watch a film, go to a party, play sports, go camping, go shooting, etc) and suddenly stop having fun to ask myself- 'Ewan, where are the gay people?'

As it is, I don't think they've gone too far with it. If I start to feel as if they are preaching, I'll quit buying their books.

How does including homosexuals trample on the rights, values, and authority of parents? You don't have to present Golarion the way they write it. You can homebrew anything you want. You can elect to buy the products that fit in with your own moral views.

But how about those of us who want these elements there so that we can teach our kids our moral values like respecting homosexuals as normal people? I like having examples in stories and other media of normal homosexual people. It helps build the impression that differences are acceptable and can be respected.

You seem a bit confused.I can only assume that you missed some stuff upthread, so I'll summarize for you.

As I have stated several times now, I don't object to Paizo's inclusion of homosexual NPCs in published materials.

I would not be interested in paying them to publish a politically correct setting, but published Golarion is not what I'd call PC . :)

Geraint asked me specifically about what I would run in a game for children, NOT what I think Paizo should publish. You seem to have conflated the two.

I hope this post has cleared up your confusion.

The thing is, even if you don't go beyond 'a kiss for the princess' then I don't see how there is a reason to exclude homosexuality.

If you have 'a kiss for the princess' then you have sexuality in your game. In such a game I would let the princess kiss either a guy or a gal: is there any difference in age-appropriateness between those two things?

Yes, there would be a difference for me, my family, and my friends with young kids.

The reasons I would not include it in a children's game include:

respect for the values, rights, authority of parents
(This is especially important, as if I ran a kids game, these would be my nieces and nephews, or the kids of my freinds.)

concern for the innocence and impressionability of young kids

my personal views on morality and sex

YMMV

It's unfortunate that purists tend to... get very passionate about how much hate they have for polluting "their" fantasy with any other genre. Is it really the majority or the more vocal minority? Perhaps we, who enjoy a little somethin' somethin' with our fantasy, should become a bit more passionate ourselves about it to encourage the Powers-That-Be to fund and develop what we wish to see in this regard.

I, for one, would love, love, LOVE to even see an adventure based in Numeria. An AP would be very cool, but just an adventure. Like a dungeon romp or an urban intrigue... or both!

Purism...In D&D? :()

I get that some people don't like high tech stuff in their fantasy worlds, but I don't get why anybody would object to Paizo publishing materials on Numeria (or, not so high tech, Alkenstar).

Its pretty obvious that attraction to the opposite sex is partially to largely biological (since biology likes to encourage reproduction and all). The mind and body are not as separate as is usually supposed. Would that mean that you can mess with someone's head by polymorphing them? Would a woman polymorphed into a man start to notice women more in that certain way? (and vice versa)

It seems like it would be like a computer where the hardware is saying do X, but the software (their entire liftime of cultural indoctrination, decisions, and habbits) is saying Y. Ahh.. sweet delicious internal conflict.

Hmmm... if you're born with a sexual orientation, or acquire one very early, wouldn't that make in biological? And if its biological, could it likewise be affected by changing the body?

Take it as food for thought, not flames please.

I don't see a reason why things like sexual orientation should work differently in D&D settings than in the real world.

Normative heterosexual sexual orientation is a fact of biology.

Other orientations may have a significant biological component.*

*(Heterosexual attraction is clearly rooted in our biology. Babymaking sex drive= not dying out, passing on your genes, etc. The way in which this primal drive asserts itself may also be reinforced or informed by culture, of course.

I'm inclined to accept the 'born that way' argument for most gay folks. It makes sense. That said, the jury is still out on whether homosexuality is caused by nature or nurture. I suspect, like so many other things, it is BOTH hereditary and environmental. Note that the expression of many genetic traits is influenced by enviornmental factors.)

I agree with you- the biological differences are going to cause confusion and 'strange feelings' in most people who are sex-swapped by a magic item or curse.

Of course, if a DM has a very different view of how sexuality works, he may come up with wholly different answers to the question.

YMMV

In the real world, Concubinage and Harems/Seraglio were the source of a great deal of hardship for the Ottoman Empire. There was so much infighting among the women and children that it caused many upheavals in that country... not to mention their infighting with the Janissaries. Many of the sultans turned to Bath attendants (Tellak) or to young boys of the harem (Koceki) in order to slake their lusts away from the scheming of the women. I wouldn't be surprised to see such a thing in Casmaron or Qadira, as a result.

Off topic- Golarion needs Jannissaries.

On Topic-

Yeah, Ottoman court/palace politics could be a good source of inspiration for some types of adventures in the setting.

The thing with a Numeria AP is that it'd turn off a lot of players, I fear... which is a damn shame. Worse, though, is my fear that even if we do 10 "classic" fantasy APs and then on 11 we do a Numeria with promises to return to the classic model with number 12 that there'll be a mass freak out and subscription bailout and scorched earth. Maybe I'm wrong. I hope I'm wrong. But nevertheless... it's gonna be a long while before we get to Numeria in Pathfinder Adventure Path.

Really? That bad, huh?

What about just doing a single module (of the common length) set there, rather than a full-on AP? You could test the waters that way. No doubt this has already occured to you, but I thought I'd put it out there anyway.

I think it's certainly possible to have a homosexual LG paladin, depending on the deity. LIkely wouldn't raise an eyebrow in Cheliax, possibly Taldor.

I had a homosexual LG paladin of Sarenrae hanging about in Thuvia and it wasn't a huge deal. It was a much larger deal with the Ulfen tribesmen where he originally hailed, however.

Based on my conception of PF gods, I don't think I'd allow a homosexual paladin of Erastil. I imagine that most other potential patrons wouldn't care about his orientation, so long as he behaved in a LG fashion. If the gods in question, or the particular tradition in question, requires chastity, that simplifies things. IMO this stuff is more likely a matter of cultural variation than of divine opinion.

Going further with GBLT material in the setting, there might be gods with transsexual eunuch priests.
Check out Cybele/Magna Mater.

I'd probably save self-castration for homebrew. It might freak some people out. It doesn't really bother me, though.

If Paizo published a few transsexual/transgendered NPCs, whether eunuchs or 'equipped', I would be just fine with that.

When did two people in a loving relationship become not-kid-friendly? Presumably these same kids are still going to violently dismember goblins and the like?

How remarkably odd.

I don't see it as odd; it's just not your view.

Not everyone agrees with your views on homosexuality, or on what is appropriate for children. This is most definitely an issue where YMMV applies. If he feels that homosexual (or any sexual) relationships are not kid-friendly by his standards, that's his call.

If I ran a game for any of the kids I know, I'd eliminate sexuality or tone it down to nothing more than a kiss for the princess after she has been rescued. I would wholly exclude homosexuality. This is a question of age appropriate material, but also of respect for parental authority. I would not want to step on the toes of any parents; especially as said parents would most likely be my relatives or friends.

YMMV

Ah yes, because there's absolutely no history of left handed people being persecuted or people trying to 'fix' them. There's no history of that at all.

I took this as mild sarcasm.

Just to back you up:

Some schools in our country used to try hard to get left handed kids to use their right hands for writing.

If Wikipedia can be believed, this is still common practice in some Asian countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bias_against_left-handed_people

So, yes, there have been attempts to fix left-handedness.

Whether you count coercing a kid to use his off hand as 'persecution'...well, that's up to you.

-Ewan

With you and I, that's possible. I don't always agree with you, but I do respect your intelligence and forthrightness.

How common is concubinage in Golarion? Are there palaces filled with harem girls?

I recently read a book about gender identity and sexual orientation in Thailand, and learned that there was once a ban on female-female relations among the Siamese royal concubines. The reasoning seems to have been not so much based on a concern for sexual mores as it was a desire to prevent close alliances that could harm the king or otherwise upset politics.

This might have some application to a country someplace in Golarion.

Selk, it's the former. I feel like Paizo has moved the needle on homosexuality too far too fast. I don't objection to having gay characters included, but the rate at which they are being included and the amount of them that are appearing smacks of pushing an agenda rather than telling a story. It's one thing to say "we won't avoid including a gay character" it's another to say "we must include x gay characters in our products to compensate for the historical exclusion of gay characters in fantasy for so many generations." The gay iconic feels very very much like the later. That's why I feel it's political - we aren't seeing gay characters for the sake of the story, we're seeing gay characters for the sake of righting some sort of historical wrong.

The Sandpoint write-up is particularly bad in terms of politics because it strikes me as setting out to rub people's faces in progressive issues. There's an alchemist that performs abortions in the town and not only that, she's good in alignment. That's going to (and it did) offend some people and it adds very little to the game. Similarly, many people object to homosexuality on religious grounds, so having a devoutly religious paladin be homosexual seems like a purposeful attempt to show that in a setting with objective definitions of good and evil and active gods monitoring such behavior, homosexuality is not anathema to religion (a belief many hold dearly). At the time I read the Sandpoint article, I thought, okay, that's a bit in your face, but it's novel and interesting. Now, from the comments on this thread and the latest adventure path, it seems like including in your face politics is not something novel and interesting, it's par for the course.

I don't want Paizo to depict gay characters as evil...

Hmm....

ewan cummins 325 wrote:

Sounds good to me, PGM.

KAM- I would be happy to discuss the 1st amendment with you elsewhere.

Ditto. Why don't you start a new thread?

I'd rather discuss it in another forum entirely. We both know that any such thread here will simply be trolled and flamed over and over again, until one of the mods comes along to clean it up. And no, I don't mean trolled or flamed by either of us. :)

Contact me and we'll set something up.

-Ewan

-------------------------------------------------

Let's get back on the main topic, as per PMG's direction.

Sounds good to me, PGM.

KAM- I would be happy to discuss the 1st amendment with you elsewhere.
PMG has requested that we shift back to the main topic.

Well, I hope that I am. Of course, I could be proved wrong at any published book, but to date I haven't yet found anything else as, as you might put it, bludgeoning over the head. :P

For the most part, neither have I.

That's why I am a happy customer.

BTW, let me thank you for taking the time to read and understand my posts, and for being respectful and considerate. You set a good example for all of us in doing so.

-Ewan

Um...did you ever attend a high school prom? It's a dance for graduating seniors, a good 50% of whom will be eighteen, thus legally adults--not minors--able to vote and everything. And the ones who are still minors are still old enough to drive themselves there and back, so we're talking seventeen and the case of not-really-minor minors who are allowed into R-rated and NC-17 rated movies regardless of their parent's permission.

And in any case, this is a complete and utter boondoggle and distraction from the fact that if seventeen and eighteen year olds want to a public dance club, they can, and they can dance with the same sex if they please.

But a dance hosted by a public high school which by Constitutional law is a secular venue.... Exactly what secular grounds are there for preventing students of the same sex from dancing with each other or posing for the event photographer who it should be stressed is not working for free and would probably be more than happy to take anyone's money and their picture unless forbidden by the school authorities?

I'm not talking a parochial school here or a church dance. The 1st Amendment guarantees religious institutions to set up whatever rules they feel like and excommunicate anyone they so please--though if they do this and then complain about empty pews, I reserve the right to laugh at them. I'm talking public high schools funded with public taxes.

And for the record, I never "agree to disagree." You can dodge the question if you want, but I'll never accept a non-answer as an answer.

I think that you are wrong about what the First Amendment actually means- but I also think that the federal courts have often been wrong about this in the past.

We should probably discuss that legal issue elsewhere, though. If you are so inclined, let me know.

Ah, is that in Rise of the Runelords #1 then, or is it in the new Jade Regent stuff?

IF we're talking about Runelords, then I think I have to point out some chronology that has made me a bit more of a fan of Paizo of late, but I've made a number of posts about how the first three books of Runelords aren't really what I would want to run for a group that contained younger players. Paizo has since moved on to other APs which are much more suitable.

Runelords seems to have had its hiccups, and they've matured as a company since in providing their source materials. I find little today to bother me, in regards to sexual themes (like the necrophilia/incest innuendo in Hook Mountain or the needlessly descriptive death scenes in Skinsaw). Since the time of Legacy of Fire they've come quite a long way and I've found the later APs to be brilliant.

I'm pretty sure it's from Rise of the Runelords.

You may be right about the maturation of the company and product line.

Now, if every homosexual NPC in the game were an upstanding model of righteous Good, or a vile Evil villain, I might be concerned that they're pushing an agenda. As it is, however, the sexual orientation of an NPC is at most a character attribute or what amounts to a foot-note. Nothing distracting, and easily ignored...

Yes! just like this. This is why I am fine with the inclusion of gay characters in published materials. They aren't hitting us over the head with it, and they aren't pushing a pro-gay OR anti-gay agenda. They haven't gone to the extreme of listing sexual orientation in every character description. It's not 'in your face.'

YMMV

Twas a joke, and I'm not sure you're entirely aware of the terms use in other contexts. It pops up a lot, and usually in a derogatory fashion. I've gone back through the thread a number of times, just so you know, but haven't seen a need to post in it for a while. I've had a bit of a hiatus and I come back to a lot more negativity. In general, though, while I don't find you overtly hostile or even that bad I do seem to notice that you tend to bring out the absolute worst in other posters. I'm sure you've noticed, much as that is worth, but I don't envy you your luck, skill, or whatever it is that causes such rancor.

I could NOT however, find the NPC to which you refer nor the post that contained such information. What source is that?

Hannah from Sandpoint.

Her shop is # 45 on the map key, if that helps.

Oh, I honestly do. Whether I agree with you currently is a question, but I do agree with you in the sense of past products when it comes to sexuality. Innuendo is best, IMO, for dealing with such a situation and I always feel that a GM should have an attitude toward his target audience to be considerate enough to purchase the materials he best thinks works with his group.

THAT said. I don't feel that paizo should stop selling what works for them. They do release a number of products that are quite good that do not contain the kinds of things you're worried about. If you're going to judge the whole company for one product, then might I point out the Pepsi company's recent defense against a lawsuit involving a gelatinous mouse in a mountain dew can?

We have very similar views on this , then.

As noted, I am not going to boycott them over a single Neutral Good abortion provider NPC. I have written that if that sort of thing became common, it would cause problems for me, and for others. I think that abortion should be simply ignored in published materials.It's a political hot potato, and its inclusion doe not jive well with the PG-13 approach they want for the game. Better to leave it out.

I make no similar argument against gay NPCs. My position from the beginning has been that it's perfectly fine to include them; just don't transform the game materials into some kind of screed on gay rights.Paizo has handled things well thus far. They are a long, long way from printing screeds. I simply made a cautionary statement. I used Blue Rose as an example of a game that, IMO, seemed to 'shout' a certain political/social agenda.

YMMV

ewan cummins 325 wrote:

The negative atmosphere of these forums tends to shut down anything like a rational or civil discussion.

Are you positive they're negative? :P

You are not usually negative or hostile. Sometimes I feel that you don't thoroughly read others' posts before responding- but no one is perfect.There is a difference between honest misunderstandings and deliberate personal attacks or trolling.

ewan cummins 325 wrote:

For all you know, I have a strong pro-choice viewpoint

I never made a judgement about you other than to claim you were misidentifying a group using a loaded term. It doesn't matter if you have the view or not.

I wasn't referring to 'pro-choice' people. I was referring to an NPC 'abortion provider.'

Abortion provider is actually a much more acceptable term than abortionist. Loaded terms are still just that, and we should probably use stray toward the usage of terms preferable to another side in civil discussion (a certain latitude of acceptiblity should be understood with statement, such as other loaded self-descriptions that have nothing to do with the subject at hand that also describes a group).

So, yes, Abortion Provider is more acceptable.

If you prefer it, I can use that term in our discussion. I expect that you will give me similar consideration in the future.

Do you understand my point about why abortion is a hot button issue that should probably be avoided in future products?
I don't care if you agree with me- but do you actually understand my concern?

Well, when they start spending too much time/energy on those topics, just let me know.

I will.

I take it you that have actually read my posts, and are aware that I am generally happy with their work.

I should be considered as 'middle porridge' on the main topic discussed in this thread.

The negative atmosphere of these forums tends to shut down anything like a rational or civil discussion.

I'm sorry to have to explain this, but using another politically loaded term like "abortionist" is like calling an African American the N-word. It is insensitive, and I've asked you to please stop referring to people who are pro-choice in such a fashion. It is loaded political term made to sound like people who are pro-choice are for the abortion of fetuses when in fact most of us are not. We prefer the option to that of over restriction. Please refrain from misidentifying.

You are mistaken.

Abortionist is a noun. I am using it in the sense of a person who actually performs abortions. That should be crystal clear from my post.
Would you prefer 'healthcare professional who performs abortions?'
:)

Pro-choice is not a noun, but an adjective. I have never used it to refer to any NPC. Nor have I made negative comments about anyone here who might hold such views.

Indeed, you don't even know what my personal views on abortion in the real world might be. For all you know, I have a strong pro-choice viewpoint

You need to go back and re-read my posts, please.

I fully acknowledge that there are pro-life and pro-choice gamers (and , I'm sure gamers who don't have strong views, or whose views are complex and fall between the two poles on this subject). That's one of the main reasons why Paizo should not publish more abortionist (abortion provider if you prefer) NPCs. It's a hot button political issue that should simply be left out of the published materials.

YMMV

That is not the proper term. The proper term is "Pro-Choice". Please stop labeling others needlessly.

You just inserted an overtly political label.

Thank you for proving my point. Paizo should not have included the character as written, and should avoid such 'statements' in the future.

Can we stray away from labels like "abortionist" while we're at it. :(

That's the proper term.

I would prefer that Paizo had stayed away from the topic, period.

I am not telling people how to handle these things in their home games; I am commenting on published materials, marketing, and editorial policies.

Oh, and why are you responding to one of my posts? Does this mean that we are now on 'speaking terms'?

If a person states that he is just fine with the inclusion of gay NPCs, but would not wish to see Golarion go as far as the setting for Blue Rose- he is labelled a bigot.
Instead of addressing his ideas, people simply construct an 'anti-gay' strawman and flail away at that.

If a person says that he does not care how others handle hot button political issues like abortion in their home games, but would prefer that Paizo avoided apparent political messages like NG abortionists in the future...he's called an 'anti-abortion crusader ' (and all without anyone even asking him what his personal views on abortion might be).

It's sad that there is such an atmosphere of hatred, intolerance, and bigotry on these forums.

YMMV

Do you think that Bachelor Snuff is also "a dubious and unnecessary addition to the equipment list"?

You seem to be focusing on this "abortionist" issue, which suggests to me that it's you that has the political line to push, rather than anyone else. Burnt Offerings has been out for... how many years now? Has anyone ever had a problem with it before now?

Here's the relevant description about her in this regard:

"Hannah’s ironically the one to go to when either one wants to end a pregnancy or needs a midwife to aid in a birth; Hannah encourages all of the women she sees to carry to term, and advises the use of pinberry extract to young women as a way to prevent unwanted pregnancies from happening in the first place, but in cases where there’s no other option, her other services are discrete and confidential."

Is this really what you think is OMG CONTROVERSIAL and not PG-13? My advice: don't read Hook Mountain Massacre if that's how you think. :)

EDIT: Also, if you feel the need to flag something, please just flag it and move on. You realise you're encouraging him by responding, correct?

Bachelor Snuff is not an abortofacient, so there is no comparsion. Apples and oranges. I don't think it really needed to be on the list, though.

Now, as for your attempt to draw me into a real-world political debate (which I will not have here)...flagged for trolling.

... Hannah? Really?

...

I guess Night Tea is a political statement too.

:)

Not quite. Night Tea is a drug or poison- not a character. There is a clear difference. I think that Night Tea is a dubious and unnecessary addition to the equipment list, but it is not in your face and objectionable like the inclusion of a good aligned abortionist.

You asked about a hypotehtical evil aligned abortionist. I would actually be against that as well, although it would be harder to know if it should count as propaganda. Allow me to explain.

I'm not aware of anyone who claims that an evil person could NOT perform abortions, but a great many people do claim that abortion is murder and therefore an evil action. A good-aligned abortionist therfore seems calculated to offend a whole lot of people.

Now, you might argue that making her evil would have also been a politcal statement. Let us grant you that.

Why include abortionists in the game at all?

It does not fit the PG-13 feel they are supposedly going for in their products.

This is a prime example of the sort of thing that should be left out of the official books. It's way too controversial, and no matter how they handle it, they may offend a lot of people. We arem't just talking about lifestyle, we are talking about something millions of Americans consider to be murder. That's a big deal. I think Paizo would be most unwise to publish more NPCs like Hannah. One might be excused, but if a pattern is seen to develop, the reaction could be very bad.

YMMV

ewan cummins 325 wrote:

The game was a laundry list of things that Gygax and his friends liked. It's always been a weird, pulpy melange.

....that dissolves nicely in Mountain Dew. :)

Gelatinous Dew! Run Away!

It is still a very poor marketing move, IMO. If that sort of thing becomes common, I will no longer buy Paizo products. Others have also expressed concerns about this political content.

Oh, and I flagged you for writing that people who don't agree with your view on this matter are immature. No one called you any names. You should return the favor, Mr. Watson.

ewan cummins 325 wrote:

I ran a mini-campaign that combined my own notes, Numeria, Oerth's Blackmoor, and B4 The Lost City ( glacier instead of desert). \

It was a lot of fun.

Ewan! :)

Love the idea of using the Lost City in a Glacier environment! :)

-Havard

Gawainha the elf druid lost her timber wolf buddy to a fall ( 100 foot drop off a sheer wall of ice, landing on jagged rocks), but she later befriended an oversized 'ice gecko'. First she had to teach it not to try to eat the gnome.

Frederick the Blue Lizard

I added partially functional heating, water, ventilation, and food delivery systems to the dungeon, courtesy of ancient technology/magic.

ewan cummins 325 wrote:

I think that Tolkien's works have had a big impact on the game mainly in the lineup of 'player races', in the ranger class, and in several monsters (orcs...cough). Beyond that? Not all that much seems to have been drawn from Tolkien. Most D&D rules and setting assumptions seem to derive from either war gaming concepts or swords and sorcery pulp fantasy (REH, Jack Vance, Fritz Lieber).

Thank you.

Man, the more he gets namechecked here, the more I realize I need to read more Vance.

Vance rocks my world.

Anyone who wants to get a sense of the roots of the game has only to browse Appendix N.

http://www.digital-eel.com/blog/ADnD_reading_list.htm

Of course, fantasy/SF/weird literature is only part of the picture. Wargaming, medieval history, ancient myths,pop culture paleontology, horror movies, comic books, etc were all part of the mix that spawned and nourished D&D. Gugax describes most of that at the beginning of the appendix, in fact.

We seem to have similar views on these matters- no doubt as a result of reading the same sources.

I ran a mini-campaign that combined my own notes, Numeria, Oerth's Blackmoor, and B4 The Lost City ( glacier instead of desert). \
It was a lot of fun.

I Paizo does publish anything substantial for Numeria, I would certainly consider buying it.

I'm just trying to get to some sort of concrete reason why you have come to believe what you do, because for myself (and plenty of others who grew up without LotR) it's pretty plainly obvious D&D was meant to be Sword and Sorcery, not Epic Fantasy.

I'd say it's an eclectic mixture, with a extra-large helping of Swords and Sorcey themes. It also includes some Epic Fantasy tropes.

IME, it tends to play S&S at low levels and becomes either epic or just 'superheroes' at higher levels.

I don't think there's a single right way to play the game, of course! I lean towards grittier, lower powered stuff. I do enjoy a change of pace now and then, though, and epic fantasy certainly works for me.

D&D/PF works well for comic/absurdist fantasy too. :)

@ TOZ. Fantasy in this case meaning High Fantasy, generally something akin to Tolkien. You know, that style of setting that 90% of D&D games have been set in since it began. It is generally what the word fantasy means unless there is a different context in play

I tend to disagree. Published D&D has included, from the early years (I'm talking mid '70s through the early 80s) dinosaurs, kung Fu monks, psionics, alien spacecraft, boom sticks, Cthulhu, dimension hopping, mushroom people, fearless vampire hunters,color coded dragons, a certain gunslinging paladin-wizard, various slime monsters straight out of 50s sci fi, old comic book stuff, B&W Hollywood horror flicks, Greek mythology, and a whole lot of other things. The game was a laundry list of things that Gygax and his friends liked. It's always been a weird, pulpy melange. And the things I mentioned show up in TSR published, official products.

I'm not even getting into homebrew or third party stuff.

Of course, it might be your experience of actual play is quite different from mine. As always, YMMV.

I think that Tolkien's works have had a big impact on the game mainly in the lineup of 'player races', in the ranger class, and in several monsters (orcs...cough). Beyond that? Not all that much seems to have been drawn from Tolkien. Most D&D rules and setting assumptions seem to derive from either war gaming concepts or swords and sorcery pulp fantasy (REH, Jack Vance, Fritz Lieber).

I own several AD&D 2E books, dead tree and PDF, but I haven't played it in a few years.

These days I am running a tabletop game using the Basic D&D rules, though.

For me, it's human. It's easier to play/identify with a human PC, as I am human. I like the stats. Skill boosts and an extra feat are great. Humans are flexible in game mechanics terms.

I'm also fond of dwarves and halflings.

This game has hookers in it too, since 1st edition when there was even a random hooker generator table in the DMG. Last I checked, hookers were also considered controversial. Except maybe in the Old Testament where Samson goes and finds one in Gaza and spends the night with her and the bible is totally cool with that. Ditto owning slaves, which has fallen out of fashion in recent years.

That said, if you're running a game for young children, you can censor out anything you consider inappropriate. Don't want hookers and brothels? Don't have them. Don't want same-sex relationships? You don't have to have them either.

You know, that's a damn good point! :)

I keep any actual hanky panky off-screen/fade to black, mainly as a matter of good taste and because I don't find that sort of 'sexy' roleplaying interesting.

I'm definitely down with the good old harlot encounters table, though. It fits the somewhat gritty fantasy I often like to run. I have used brothels, whores, pimps, etc. in play. One session even involved the PCs rescuing a young girl from a brothel.

I would not actually use a graphic portrayal of a sexual assault in play, for reasons of good taste (and because half my players are women). That sort of thing has been implied a few times, mainly in the context of horror games. I don't use it much.

I've seen a couple of the PCs in my all-male Pendragon game do some bad things...But that's 'off screen', too.

In a happier sense, love, romance, starting a family, and so on have been part of several games I've run. PCs have had sweethearts, wives, and children.

Given all that, I think I've only ever had one gay NPC. There might have been others, but I can't recall any. I should probably have had at least a couple by now, if only for the sake of 'realism.'