I understand that WotC is probably riding you guys to push this stuff as hard as you can, but this reader's opinion: I would guess that a low single-digit percentage at best of your readers are using Eberron, especially if the rumors about how it's fallen far short of WotC sales goals are true. One or two Eberron adventures a year is a better idea.
I understand that WotC is probably riding you guys to push this stuff as hard as you can, but this reader's opinion: I would guess that a low single-digit percentage at best of your readers are using Eberron, especially if the rumors about how it's fallen far short of WotC sales goals are true. One or two Eberron adventures a year is a better idea.
There are many Eberron DMs out there that are hungry for new Eberron content of any kind, especially adventures. Many are non-subscribers that will snatch up an issue of Dungeon or Dragon if the cover has any mention of Eberron. Even if the setting has fallen short of expectations (and there is no proof of that), what exactly does that amount to? It depends on the expectations and one's definition of "short." I think your estimate of "a low single-digit percentage" is pretty arbitrary.
I'd be interested to see the results of a poll conducted on this topic; in fact, I think I'll start one in a new thread.
I understand that WotC is probably riding you guys to push this stuff as hard as you can, but this reader's opinion: I would guess that a low single-digit percentage at best of your readers are using Eberron, especially if the rumors about how it's fallen far short of WotC sales goals are true. One or two Eberron adventures a year is a better idea.
I can't say I've heard the same rumors about low Eberron book sales, but I know that Erik and company take your feedback into account.
Happily, we can do better than guess about how many of our readers use Eberron. Rest assured that our magazine content is guided, in part, by the results of our surveys.
Best regards,
- rob "just-the-web-guy" head
P.S. And while we sympathize with the inevitable follow-up question, "Can we see the survey data?"... Sorry, it ain't gonna happen, for numerous, obvious reasons. : ]
One or two Eberron adventures a year is a better idea.
I think Erik has said he sees around 4 a year, which I can live with begrudgingly.
Any more than that and I don't think the value of the magazine is really meeting my cost ratio effectiveness.
Eberron adventures are simply too difficult to modify for 95% of the campaign settings out there. And to be blunt about it, if the adventure was easy to modify, then why write it for Eberron?
I understand that WotC is probably riding you guys to push this stuff as hard as you can, but this reader's opinion: I would guess that a low single-digit percentage at best of your readers are using Eberron, especially if the rumors about how it's fallen far short of WotC sales goals are true.
bit of WotC info concerning sales goals http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=418582&page=2
No one outside of Hasbro/WotC has accurate sales figures for any Wizards of the Coast products, so anyone making claims about such information is either extrapolating from anecdotal-and-thus-unreliable data (such as the sales at their particular retail outlet or distributor) or simply making it up.
For any Hasbro employee to discuss such figures in any detail would be inappropriate at best and illegal at worst. While Eberron products may well represent only a tiny, tiny fraction of the company's overall product line, it's still a violation of both company policy and, potentially, U.S. law to divulge such information. Hasbro is a publicly traded company and thus must obey a long list of rules and regulations detailing how and when it can release financial data (and believe me, posting it on message boards in response to questions doesn't fall into the category of acceptable).
Though I'm only a lowly developer, with little ability to affect the overall business realities of the universe, I will say this: Eberron has a lot of strong supporters around here, including RPG R&D Director Bill Slavicsek (who wields a bit of influence), and a number of Eberron products are in the pipeline (in fact, I'm just finishing up development on one of those), so I don't think the line is in any risk of fading any time soon.
__________________
Andy Collins
RPG Developer
Wizards of the Coast R&D
BTW
One of the reason I subscribe Dungeon is because of Eberron adventures. This is new setting which need support.
Eberron DM Shemov
"What do you care? You obviously don't want the line to succeed. Your on here posting about how there should be less Eberron content in Dungeon. Take your rumour mongering trolling some place else."
Lame. I'll post the link to the post I first saw it in once I get home from work.
Watch who you're calling a troll, son.
Here you go: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=399440&page=1
I seem to remember reading something about it on the PRG.Net forums, too, but I could be mistaken there.
Here you go: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=399440&page=1
I seem to remember reading something about it on the PRG.Net forums, too, but I could be mistaken there.
I think the point which Andy is trying to make...and which I totally agree with is that message boards aren't exactly the place for Sales Reports. Anything read on ANY message boards is likely just a rumor flying about, regardless of whether or not it started on RPG.net, GAMA, WotC, Paizo, or wherever.
As for Eberron content in Dungeon...I'm all for it. Its new, it needs supplements, and what better place to get them than from the fine folks and authors at Paizo.
"Anything read on ANY message boards is likely just a rumor flying about..."
When did I say otherwise?
I dont' know about everyone else, but I dig on the Eberron. I think like most people when Eberron first came out my reaction was..."Why didn't they pick my campaign world!?!" And I hated it. Hated the warforged, hated the whole magic-is-inundated-in-everythingness of it.
But you know what...no matter what you think of the core concepts of Eberron, the fact that remains that industry greats got behind Keith Baker to develop that sucker into a sleek and very enjoyable campaign world. Bruce R. Cordell was mentioned as lending a hand in an interview somewhere, and I don't know how everyone else feels, but I personally thing Bruce is a god.
Cordell
Alignment: CG
Domains: Creation, Knowledge, and Mind
Portfolio: Psionics, Kick-ass Game Supplements, and D&D Nerds Everywhere
Favored Weapon: Dungeon Builder's Guidebook
The DBG is my absolute FAVORITE book in gaming, and the Expanded Psionics Handbook is awesome.
Okay, I didn't mean to turn this message into a shrine to Cordell, but what I am getting at is-
Eberron is cool. Lightning Rails are cool. Warforged are cool. Shifters are cool. Changelings are cool. The Last War is cool. The Mournland is cool. Rakshasas taking their rightful place as masterminds of evil is cool.
Just my two cents.
I like the Eberron content we have seent thus far, and while generic drop-in-any-campaign adventures are always my fave, Eberron is my second favorite.
Peace
Give the Eberron bashing a rest. It's been a year. Alot of time, resources, and publicity have gone into the setting.
It's not going anywhere, thankfully.
Grow up and let go of the constant whining. Your ranting and pleas to kill it aren't going to give you results, they are just going to irritate everyone who has heard the complaints over and over for a year.
You lost the war. Eberron is successful. Boo hoo.
-KS
Personaly I'm a big fan of Eberron, not every single concept and idea, but the setting as a whole. So far I've liked the Eberron adventures I've seen in Dungeon, and realy hope to start running them soon. My only complaint about any of it is thus: Eberron has the potential for much more political adventures than what seems to be writen. Adventures about airships and warforged and riding arround on lightning rails are kinda neat, and give blaring in-your-face encounters that identify the adventure as Eberron, but what about all the conflict from the last war? What about adventures dealing more with the tension between nations who just spent the past several years killing eachother?
If all we ever see are artificers and warforged jugernauts, well then the people who hate Eberron and say it's nothing but trendy little fad, soon to burn out, will most likely be right. But if the talent and imagination people are putting into Eberron is focused on making more substance for the campaign then I think it will be a setting played in 4th ed, 5th ed, and so on.
Personaly I'm a big fan of Eberron, not every single concept and idea, but the setting as a whole. So far I've liked the Eberron adventures I've seen in Dungeon, and realy hope to start running them soon. My only complaint about any of it is thus: Eberron has the potential for much more political adventures than what seems to be writen. Adventures about airships and warforged and riding arround on lightning rails are kinda neat, and give blaring in-your-face encounters that identify the adventure as Eberron, but what about all the conflict from the last war? What about adventures dealing more with the tension between nations who just spent the past several years killing eachother?
If all we ever see are artificers and warforged jugernauts, well then the people who hate Eberron and say it's nothing but trendy little fad, soon to burn out, will most likely be right. But if the talent and imagination people are putting into Eberron is focused on making more substance for the campaign then I think it will be a setting played in 4th ed, 5th ed, and so on.
Well said, dude. I'm sure it will happen, once the newness starts to wear off. I like Ebberon alot, and I think that those plot elements you refer to will be used more, once some of the fiction, additional suppliments, and all that other stuff starts to come out.
I also agree about the Warforged juggernaut comment. It's the only part of the whole setting that I think is limiting. I would never want to play a race with such a specific and recent origion history. And while the identity conflicts, racial bigotry angles, and costruct traits are admittedly cool, they are a little too focused to be an expansive font of new adventure hooks and character concepts. It'll burn itself out, I hope. . . I have a gamer buddy who hasn't read anything on the setting, and he refers to Eberron as the world with the robots. :(
IMHO, If I were running an Eberron campaign as a DM, I'd use the Warforged about as often as I'd use any Golem. Adding intelligence and character levels just makes it a tougher challenge.
Other than that, I can't wait to see everything else REALLY unfold. It's going to be great!
Personally I love Eberron. As a DM I am slavering for more Eberron content and lament the lack of official resources. I would love to see Eberron info in each issue, but I know that would alienate too many non-Eberron fans. I prefer to get something Eberron every other issue.
Rooster
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I play in Eberron, but I don't DM a campaign there. Even if that changes, I don't really want a lot of Eberron content. First of all, most of the adventures haven't been particularly interesting to me.
I'd like to see no more than one Eberron adventure each quarter. Probably not going to happen, but I can state my preference. There are a lot of other good settings, and I don't want them to have tons of support either. I'd just like to see a little blurb that gives suggestions for where to place the adventure in three campaign worlds (Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and Eberron) and general worlds (in a moutainous region close to a forest).
Eberron can be interesting, but it isn't THAT good.
I play in Eberron, but I don't DM a campaign there. Even if that changes, I don't really want a lot of Eberron content. First of all, most of the adventures haven't been particularly interesting to me.
I'd like to see no more than one Eberron adventure each quarter. Probably not going to happen, but I can state my preference. There are a lot of other good settings, and I don't want them to have tons of support either. I'd just like to see a little blurb that gives suggestions for where to place the adventure in three campaign worlds (Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms and Eberron) and general worlds (in a moutainous region close to a forest).
Eberron can be interesting, but it isn't THAT good.
DeadDM, your wish was granted and you didn't even know it. This is exactly (and I DO mean exactly) what Dungeon has been doing. So, hooray for you!
DeadDM, your wish was granted and you didn't even know it. This is exactly (and I DO mean exactly) what Dungeon has been doing. So, hooray for you!
Actually, they've done two issues in a row with Eberron content, with two more to come. That is far more than one a quarter (or at least that is implied by Crypt of Crimson Stars blurb). Now, if they do no more Eberron content for the rest of the year, that will stay within the no more than four per year guideline. I truly hope that is the case.
Just want to throw my two cents into this melee. I don't care one way or another concerning Eberron, I prefer the Midnight or Dark Sun campaign worlds myself. But one of the earlier posts made a good point. Most of time Dungeon is an excellent source for generic ideas. Eberron is difficult to convert over per say to Greyhawk or Dragonlance due to the unique campaign setting (but not impossible). Fighting over whether you like Eberron or not is immaterial, and Mr. Collins lecture on the legality of finance data while responding to Yamo was inappropriate. Mr. Collins you are a employee of WOTC not only should you refrain from bickering on the message board but you should be above it. As a company Pazio is obligated to listen to it's subscribers, perhaps a pole to help determine the course it will need to follow in the future. I for one don't mind an occasional campaign specific adventure, but not all of us role-play in the Forgotten Realms or DragonLance or even Eberron.
Fighting over whether you like Eberron or not is immaterial, and Mr. Collins lecture on the legality of finance data while responding to Yamo was inappropriate. Mr. Collins you are a employee of WOTC not only should you refrain from bickering on the message board but you should be above it. As a company Pazio is obligated to listen to it's subscribers, perhaps a pole to help determine the course it will need to follow in the future. I for one don't mind an occasional campaign specific adventure, but not all of us role-play in the Forgotten Realms or DragonLance or even Eberron.
I didn't find Andy's response inappropriate at all. He was simply pointing out that any speculation on whether Eberron was selling well or not (which was part of Yamo's reasoning) was purely conjecture.
Yamo is passionate about what he feels should be in the magazines, which is fine, but pointing out that part of his argument is based on speculation is important. Characterizing what Andy posted as "lecturing" I think is missing the point.
Paizo does survey its readers with some regularity, and I can assume, since Eberron is still supported, that support of Eberron in the pages of the magazines DOES have support, since the staff at Paizo are uncommonly responsive to reader concerns. I think Erik has been very direct in presenting his vision for where he sees the magazines going. He has at times said that he's basing his vision on data that he can't, or won't present to us... and you know what? That's fine with me. I work in a job where most of everything that passes across my desk is confidential, and I know how frustrating it can be for people to be told, "look, we're doing it this way, I can't tell you why, but this is the way it has to be."
The magazine has finally begun to get really good again, after a long stretch where I couldn't bring myself to spend the money on it. In fact, Erik's leadership and the changes in the magazine prompted my husband - who a little over a year ago had finally stopped collecting the magazines (he has from issue 28 or so of Dragon and all of Dungeon) - to start picking up both magazines again. For Dragon and Dungeon magazines to support an official world setting with few supplements makes excellent sense. I hope they continue to do so.
- Ashavan
Ashavan,
Your response was very well-written and thoughtful. I agree that Erik (and the rest of the crew) is doing a fantastic job at the helm, and has been doing a great job of keeping us informed. I've bought many more issues under his leadership than ever before.
If the data does indeed that Eberron is wildly popular, than so be it. I can accept that I am part of a minority that has no interest in the setting. If however, the data indicates that it is no more popular than the other settings, or the desire for generic settings, than I'd like to see it reduced.
The fact is, those of us who rabidly dislike the setting must be as vocal as all the "give me more" folks in order to have our voices heard and see the magazine that we want to see. I realize that the adventures can be modified to other campaign settings (with a varying degree of effort depending on the adventure), but I simply dislike the "flavor" of Eberron, so I generally find the adventures less appealing than the others that Dungeon offers.
I must disagree that Eberron lacks support and supplements. Looking at WOTC's 2005 products (discounting novels), Eberron has six supplements to the Forgotten Realm's two. Eberron had four supplements last year. That is ten supplements so far, with more on the way. Numerous articles have appeared in Dragon over the past year. Eberron is simply not being undersupported.
I didn't find Andy's response inappropriate at all.
I agree.
The "Shards of Eberron" three-part Campaign Arc ought to be pretty easy to translate into any campaign setting.
--Erik Mona
Editor-in-Chief
Dragon & Dungeon
Thanks, Erik. Any chance you could set all this bickering to rest with a general idea of where things are heading regarding Eberron content? :)
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Keep the Eberron content coming. Keep the Forgotten Realms content coming. And keep the generic adventures and occassional Greyhawk content, too.
All of these settings have their distinctive styles and themes. I think the balance that Dungeon maintains is pretty good. I read every issue of Dungeon I get in the mail from cover to cover. I enjoy all of the ideas and perspectives.
Erik Mona put it best in his From the Editor in Dungeon 119 (Feb. 2005, page 8):
"In the end, D&D is about imagination, and published adventures often serve to stoke that imagination and improve our games. Maybe we like one idea. Maybe we hate the whole thing and just know we could do it better. Either way, were thinking, and our games are better off for it."
Take what you can from Dungeon, be it Eberron, Forgotten Realms or from the Final Resting Place of Sae'Tez's generic Underdark. There are 106 pages from which to cull some gold nugget, no matter the adventure's official setting. Even the most critical and fastidious gamer can adapt a gem they like from each adventure - if he or she can get past the notion of setting prejudice.
Happy gaming.
Don Kenneth Brown
Salt Lake City, Utah
Forgotten Realms and Greyhawk have been out a bit longer though. Someone wanting to DM Eberron doesn't even have the possibility of digging out an old second edition module and converting it, or flipping through a dumptruck full of novels to get an adventure idea. Hopefuly the ratio balances back out after a while, and we see just as many Realms, Greyhawk, and Eberron products out on the shelves, but for right now I think things are going as they should.
Greyson's post sums up my thought.
I don't care the content is Greyhawk/Forgotten Realms/Eberron/Planescape/whatever. I simply take the maps I like, the encounters I find interesting and the ideas that sound appaling to me and adapt them to my personal campaign.
Role Playing Games (not including Computer RPGs) is all about imagination and abstraction.
my initial impression of eberron was negative. but i bought it anyway after reading several of the adventures in dungeon and we are presently playing in eberron. we play in several settings over the course of the year. this last two years we played in realms, greyhawk, kalamar and midnight and now in eberron.
what is good about eberron:
1) complex relationships between factions as motivation for adventuring
2) small dungeons - we are tired of long dungeon crawls at this point in our 3rd edition "back to the dungeon" experience.
3) site based, movie scene "like" encounters - the plot moves quickly
4) travel is quick and easy
also i was converting eberron modules on the fly to use in my midnight campaign and they were quick and easy to do.
I haven't bought anything of Eberreon (and most likely won't) as my players refuse to play anything not Realms related (barring the 6 months I forced them to play to Kalamar). That said, most Eberreon adventures in Dungeon (possibly with the exception of the warforged-focues adventure) can easily adapt itself to other campaigns. Crypt of Crimson Stars offers a nice set of traps, diplomatic options with a tribe of savage halflings.. easily adaptable. The only thing you have to change is the Dragonshard thingy.. just make it a very big gem or a magic item. I don't mind the Eberron fans getting adventures when its this easily converted.
Eberron being a diplomatic-oriented campaign setting sounds nice.. but in my experience, Dungeon can offer limited amount of that, as any diplomatic/politic adventures is difficult to pull off without any prior events taking place in your campaign.
Keep eberron stuff coming. Dungeon Rocks, Dragon Rocks. Love Eberron.