That's interesting stuff, Sean. Not very encouraging, but shows that this isn't anything new. You just have to keep plugging away, obviously.
BTW, has anybody heard from Jeremy yet? Myself, no word yet. But if one you in this thread has received the green light on your proposals/submissions, let the rest of us know so we can congratulate you (and curse you under our breath!).
Nothing here yet either-
They are deciding on four of mine (five, maybe, depending on the exact cutoff date). I think that they said their email was still messed up. But that didn't stop me from obsessively checking my email every couple of hours last friday...I doubt anything comes till monday or so.
Well, I got a nice list of "not interested," "pass," "too cliche" and what not from young Jeremy Walker tonight. At least I can now put this batch to rest and get started on the next ones.
Writing is a tough, anxiety-inducing business (and crossing your fingers and toes definitely doesn't work!), but I couldn't imagine not putting myself though it. It's just too much fun!
How did the rest of you do?
Well, I got a nice list of "not interested," "pass," "too cliche" and what not from young Jeremy Walker tonight.
I always find it somewhat amusing when I hear the word 'cliche' used to describe something in D&D. People seem to fail to realize that D&D is entirely based on cliches and without them, we wouldn't have a game.
The Greyhawk setting is essentially one huge cliche, and Faerun is just a cheap-rip and tawdry off of Greyhawk. Eberron is cliche central, even though it poses as trying to be unique and special, much like a snowflake.
The entire concept of a core class is a stereotype given form. Sure, in d20 you have a lot more flexibility to differentiate characters, but a fighter is still recognizable as a fighter and a paladin tends to stand out in a crowd, shiny armour or no. If the game wasn't based on cliches, we'd have a more GURPS-like character creation system, rather than one with strictly rigid advancement options.
And, of course, fantasy in general is rife with cliches, all of which help to support it and nourish it and make it what it is we know and love.
All of my thoughts on the matter can be summed up with a conversation I had with a DM once, that I'll paraphrase here:
"A dwarf with an axe, how cliche.", "Have you ever played a dwarf with an axe? Or a halfling rogue for that matter? How about a gnomish thief/illusionist, or a paladin in shiny armour?", "Err... no...", "Neither have I, so how is it cliche to you or me?"
Yes, but there's a difference between "completely cliche" and "comfortingly cliche". People like fantasy for the conventions - heroes vs. villains, swordsmen and sorcery and beautiful ladies - but at the same time they get bored reading exactly the same stories over and over again.
One of the mantras of fiction writing is "the same but different". New works must be "the same" enough that people respond to the genre conventions they know and love. But at the same time it must have some twist, however small, that makes the story unique and interesting. A knight in shining armor is cliche, sure, and after a dozen or a hundred they all start blending together. And an anti-hero in armor made from seashells who wields +1 brilliant energy nunchucks is not cliche, but isn't really fantasy either, and as such is a turnoff.
The trick is to have a knight in shining armor who's just different enough to keep the reader interested. There's a difference between cliche and too cliche.
And if anyone knows how to reliably hit that balance, please tell me the secret.
-Amber S.
Creative Director
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Amber's right.
There really isn't much left after 2000+ years of history that's a completely new story. The best we can hope to do is retell the 36 archetypal stories in as complelling and interesting a way as is possible.
That said... when Dungeon rejects a submission for being too cliched, that actually means several things. It could mean, in the case of a submission about evil trees and crazy druids, that we've simply run way too many of that type of adventure in recent issues or upcoming issues and want to give it a rest for a bit. It could mean that the story has been done to death in the fantasy genre (slay the dragon to save the princess being the biggest fantasy cliche, probably). Or it could simply mean that the editor just finished reading five books in a row that happened to be about shapechanging thieves trying to take over a city from the sewers, and the adventure proposal just came in at the wrong time.
If you recieve a lot of rejections from us and see the word cliche in our replies a lot, consider turning your next proposals on their ears. When you come up with a new proposal, reverse it so that the antagonists and protagonists change places. Or swap out a monster like a dragon or a demon for something realy weird, like a tauric minotaur/rust monster or a wendigo nymph.
All that said... even the most cliched adventure proposal can still wow us if it's really well written and exciting. Let's face it... the cliches of the rebellious good-aligned drow or the hordes of demons being unleashed on the Material Plane or the kingdom under siege by an army of giants are all what they are because they're really cool concepts. Every once in a while, Dungeon accepts a cliched proposal simply because it's really well written and it's been too long since we ran a save the prinicess from the dragon adventure.
"A dwarf with an axe, how cliche.", "Have you ever played a dwarf with an axe? Or a halfling rogue for that matter? How about a gnomish thief/illusionist, or a paladin in shiny armour?", "Err... no...", "Neither have I, so how is it cliche to you or me?"
I played a dwarf with an axe once. He was just a plain old fighter/cleric, with the traditional beard, the same old heavy armor, and the outrageous scottish accent.
He was outcast from his clan because he discovered the secret Dwarven God of Forgiving your Enemies. The gleaming axe strapped to his back was freshly forged, sharpened for battle, and NEVER meant to be used.
He carried it to remind him of the heavy burden of guilt he shares with his race for a history of revenge and blood fueding with Trogs, Duergar, and Drow. He can't use it and he's not allowed to leave it behind. Both are acts would cause him to be forsaken by his God forever. . .
Is that a cliche'?
That said... when Dungeon rejects a submission for being too cliched, that actually means several things. It could mean, in the case of a submission about evil trees and crazy druids, that we've simply run way too many of that type of adventure in recent issues or upcoming issues and want to give it a rest for a bit. It could mean that the story has been done to death in the fantasy genre (slay the dragon to save the princess being the biggest fantasy cliche, probably). Or it could simply mean that the editor just finished reading five books in a row that happened to be about shapechanging thieves trying to take over a city from the sewers, and the adventure proposal just came in at the wrong time.
It may seem like a silly question, but when has TSR/Wizards/Paizo actully produced a complete 'Rescue the Princess from the Evil Dragon' module. It may be cliched, but it's a classic cliche.
I seem to remember something from Treasure Maps, but apart from that there seems to be nothing. Can't we tear out some of these ideas and run them around the block? If there are no adventures that produce these scenarios....
I'm not saying let's have a nice simple "kill the dragon" game, but surely someone can use the old stories in an interesting new way?
I'd love to rescue the princess again.
ok ok ok- I just got my rejections last night. BUT, for the first time in a loooooong time, they were rejected with personal comments. (Thank you for that Mr Walker). Didn't get the 'cliche' comment, but did get a couple of 'good, but doesn't stand out from the crowd' comments. Apparently it's all about location, location, location. Though I did turn in one with the burned out volcanic lake just before the 'Shackled City' thing took off. I didn't need to know personal comments on that one after I read Issue #97 (which I did get a short adventure of mine published). I also got nailed this time for having 'problem solving elements' in one, which I am guessing is referring to puzzles I described as being in a rogue's tomb. Mr Mona (or Mr Jacobs) has mentioned the castle in the melting glacier as a good location 2x in these forums...I am going to bet that they will be getting several dozen of those in the next month or so.
Mr Jacobs said "Or swap out a monster like a dragon or a demon for something realy weird, like a tauric minotaur/rust monster or a wendigo nymph." This is the part I love, I had a half fiend displacer beast with wings that could fly in one proposal, and a rust monster that conveniently finds a metal flask full of a potion of flying before the PCs show up in another. The one of mine that got published had an ettin that had been turned into a wight.
As for the 'cliche' characters, I DID play a halfling assassin in 1st ed. and he was a CN backstabbing b*****d that was greedy and wore all goth-y black leather. Almost every dwarf I've played has been a cleric with a hammer and always on the lookout for the almighty dwarven thrower (which wasn't all that great, oh well).
And as for the 'rescue the princess/kill the dragon' story, wasn't there one a few years ago where the princess was an illusion or something...or maybe I'm remembering an old 'Far Side' cartoon.
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OK so let me get this straight. As long as your adventure is set in some fantastic setting it doesn't matter if the adventure involves beating up a gang of orcs and their mother for looking ugly?!
Playtester 1: "Oh look, another band of ugly orcs."
Playtester 2: "Whoop-ee. I roll initative."
DM: "C'mon guys, you gotta admit a dungeon carved out of Jell-O (TM) is really cool. This'll get published in Dungeon for sure!"
Playtester 3: "There's always room for Jell-O!"
P.S. This idea is mine! So none of you guys dare steal it!
Reebo Kesh
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Just a suggestion that may help all of us here (since we're all friends, right?)
How about someone start a Thread in which they give a short description of their adventure that got REJECTED by the Dungeon staff?
At least this way we don't all submit queries that have been submitted already and clog up the system, slowing the Dungeon staff's response rate to submissions.
Does this sound like a good idea? I have submitted one query last night and hope to send another tonight. If they get rejected I will be happy to put a short description of my query on the above mentioned thread suggestion.
What does everyone think? How about Eric or James, do you guys think this is a good idea?
Well, I got a nice list of "not interested," "pass," "too cliche" and what not from young Jeremy Walker tonight. At least I can now put this batch to rest and get started on the next ones.
Writing is a tough, anxiety-inducing business (and crossing your fingers and toes definitely doesn't work!), but I couldn't imagine not putting myself though it. It's just too much fun!
How did the rest of you do?
Steve -
I haven't received anything on the three adventure queries I had in yet.... though knowing you've received something, I'll go and check my spam filter just to be sure the messages didn't end up there. I checked the dates on the submissions and all three should have been before the cut-off date.
- Ashavan
*edit* - checked my spam filter and still nothing. I don't know whether to feel lucky at not receiving my rejections yet (out of three I'm sure at least one must have been rejected) or left out since everyone else seems to have heard Saturday night.
I don't know whether to feel lucky at not receiving my rejections yet (out of three I'm sure at least one must have been rejected) or left out since everyone else seems to have heard Saturday night.
I am still working on sending out the emails, I got about half of them done over the weekend, and I will try and get the rest out today (although it may slip later in the week if I don't get it done today).
I am still working on sending out the emails, I got about half of them done over the weekend, and I will try and get the rest out today (although it may slip later in the week if I don't get it done today).
Thanks for the update Jeremy! I'll keep an eye out for the email.
- Ashavan
Just a suggestion that may help all of us here (since we're all friends, right?)
How about someone start a Thread in which they give a short description of their adventure that got REJECTED by the Dungeon staff?At least this way we don't all submit queries that have been submitted already and clog up the system, slowing the Dungeon staff's response rate to submissions.
Does this sound like a good idea? I have submitted one query last night and hope to send another tonight. If they get rejected I will be happy to put a short description of my query on the above mentioned thread suggestion.
What does everyone think? How about Eric or James, do you guys think this is a good idea?
I'm not sure about this. While I'm happy to share my ideas, I would hate for any of us to draw the wrong conclusions about an adventure rejection. If something was rejected because they have a similar story, but they didn't provide that in comments, then how are we going to evaluate the submission. Maybe it was a good idea that was poorly communicated, are we going to misread the rejection and think - "oh, Dungeon doesn't want desert based adventures right now"
Another part of me just wonders what else people are submitting and wants to see. I'd just hate to ditch a proposal idea because I drew the wrong conclusions.
- Ashavan
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Creative Director
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If anyone wants to post rejected proposals or ideas... go right ahead. But keep in mind that we don't always reject ideas just because they're bad ideas. They might get rejected because they're a GREAT idea but we've already got the same type of adventure planned for early next year, for example. So if you've got an idea that you think is super awesome but it's similar to one someone posts here... don't let that stop you!
I just got my email - one acceptance! Only they want me to make some big changes to it (like setting). Which I'm only too happy to do. :-)
The other two were rejected on grounds of being too similar to things they're already doing. Yes I am psychic!
-Amber S.
I just got my email - one acceptance! Only they want me to make some big changes to it (like setting). Which I'm only too happy to do. :-)
The other two were rejected on grounds of being too similar to things they're already doing. Yes I am psychic!
-Amber S.
Congrats - I still haven't heard anything on mine yet.
BTW - I recently used the emotional feeding aspect of the Will O' Wisp to great success. That was a great idea . . . :)
Congrats - I still haven't heard anything on mine yet.
That's odd, I sent you an email on Saturday, to the aol account you have been using to email us (which I notice is not the account you use on the messageboards), do I need to resend it to a differant account?
I just got my email - one acceptance! Only they want me to make some big changes to it (like setting). Which I'm only too happy to do. :-)
Way to go Amber! Good luck on the next part of this Hell ride!
Ashavan, I'm crossing my fingers for you. I hope it works better for you than it did for me!
BTW, has anybody heard from Jeremy yet? Myself, no word yet. But if one you in this thread has received the green light on your proposals/submissions, let the rest of us know so we can congratulate you (and curse you under our breath!).
I did get one greenlight. So I guess I am one of Dungeon's Eleven? ;-) Wow, what would that movie be like?
I thought Jeremy's comments on the rest of my submissions were really helpful. I love good feedback as it helps me hone my skillz. Even if a proposal doesn't make it to Dungeon, the feedback helps me evaluate what to change to submit it elsewhere. Thanks Jeremy!
Just a suggestion that may help all of us here (since we're all friends, right?)
How about someone start a Thread in which they give a short description of their adventure that got REJECTED by the Dungeon staff?At least this way we don't all submit queries that have been submitted already and clog up the system, slowing the Dungeon staff's response rate to submissions.
Does this sound like a good idea? I have submitted one query last night and hope to send another tonight. If they get rejected I will be happy to put a short description of my query on the above mentioned thread suggestion.
What does everyone think? How about Eric or James, do you guys think this is a good idea?
While I think this could be cool, it sounds like a lot of work considering I would need to post about 6 rejected proposals. No thanks. I would rather spend that time working on new ones that WON'T get rejected. Plus, when I warm up to a subject (my own work in particular), I tend to get very verbose. :)
That's odd, I sent you an email on Saturday, to the aol account you have been using to email us (which I notice is not the account you use on the messageboards), do I need to resend it to a differant account?
Congrats - I still haven't heard anything on mine yet.
Yeah... I use the seocnd account for anything that would give me spam or other advertisements. :)
Strange... I'm on AOL, which seems to give me problems with delays. I got something from James regarding a quick question just this morning, but I'd noticed that he'd sent to to me last Thursday.
If you have the time to resend it to the second account, that'd be great. Either way, I'm sure I'll get it eventually. Thanks!
(time for a switch, me'thinks)
i sent in my first submission to Paizo a little over 6 weeks ago. i was told not to get antsy until i had at least passed the 2 month mark, so i'm still laying low. ;) working on a couple more proposals anyway, so that's cool.
For my part, I'm hoping to hear back on two adventure proposals, but I'm also hoping to hear back on an adventure I submitted (after the proposal was accepted).
Based on the various discussions on these boards and elsewhere, I have this image of DUNGEON and DRAGON regularly being buried in a virtual blizzard of submissions and queries...I feel the staff at Paizo deserve a hearty round of applause for their work. How they stay sane from month to month I can only guess.
Amber -
Congrats! I'm glad to see you got an acceptance. I, like Chris Wissel, am still waiting to hear. Hopefully Jeremy will get to me soon.
- Ashavan
I too am still waiting to hear, but it sounds like answers are coming. I'll be checking the email.
One final caveat, this meeting concerned only submissions that we had received up through about three weeks ago.
Thanks for the updates. Does 'about three weeks ago' reach back as far as March 9th? I'm just wondering when to expect my rejection! :)
Crap, my proposals were probably all too recent to be included. I sent one on 3/14, so maybe I'll hear about that one at least.
I had one from 3/4 that WAS included (and rejected) and one from 3/31 NOT included in this bunch. And I just sent in one today.
Kobold Press
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I'm still waiting to hear on a submission from early February. No news is good news.
I'm very amused by the contrast between the current system and the Olde Days of paper submissions. I think much blame can be laid at the feet of email for making the editorial burden harder now than it was in the early 90s WRT queries. Back then, the submissions stack was paper, the process was FIFO, and queries were always turned around (as Ted's editorial attests) in under 30 days.
Now, it's much easier to fire off a query: no printing, stamps, return envelope, etc. The price of progress!
(And yes, I officially feel old as the hills now.)
(And yes, I officially feel old as the hills now.)
Dude, you're a legend in D&D circles. You'll never grow old, since you're now immortal :)
I'm still waiting to hear on a submission from early February. No news is good news.
Wolfgang -
I'm glad to know I'm not the only one still waiting. This is the hardest part though - knowing that I have to write something good enough that it shines when the other talent in the pool is as good, and legendary, as you. Knowing that is what made it take so long for me to get myself to submit something in the first place. Now I can only hope that I told a good enough story.
- Ashavan
I am still working on sending out the emails, I got about half of them done over the weekend, and I will try and get the rest out today (although it may slip later in the week if I don't get it done today).
Jeremy -
I know you're busy getting issue 124 out, but I still haven't heard anything and I just wanted to check in and make sure my queries didn't fall through the cracks. Anyone else still waiting?
- Ashavan
I know you're busy getting issue 124 out, but I still haven't heard anything and I just wanted to check in and make sure my queries didn't fall through the cracks. Anyone else still waiting?
Yeah, I got about halfway through the stack before I had to put it on hold. The good news is we are getting close to polishing off this issue, so hopefully I will be able to get back to the other half later this week.
Yeah, I got about halfway through the stack before I had to put it on hold. The good news is we are getting close to polishing off this issue, so hopefully I will be able to get back to the other half later this week.
Thanks for the update Jeremy. I don't mind sitting tight waiting, I was just worried something had gotten lost.
- Ashavan
Yeah, I got about halfway through the stack before I had to put it on hold. The good news is we are getting close to polishing off this issue, so hopefully I will be able to get back to the other half later this week.
Question: If you guys manage to finish off the whole stack, will that mean that EVERY query sent prior to March '05 will have been looked at?
I'd call that a great catch-up job!
M
Question: If you guys manage to finish off the whole stack, will that mean that EVERY query sent prior to March '05 will have been looked at?
Yes, well every adventure and backdrop query anyway. There are still a couple of old Campaign Workbook submissions floating around.
I'd call that a great catch-up job!
Yeah well, I'd feel better about it if it wasn't April 25 ;)
Yeah well, I'd feel better about it if it wasn't April 25 ;)
My submission was made 'only' in April, so it's probably in the bottom half of that stack...
I'll sit tight until July ;-)
M
Wolf, I imagine you saying all that in a Grandpa Simpsons voice. ;)
I don't envy you the paper days.
On the other hand there probably was not as much competition. Any one of us can write and email and probably dozens or hundreds do. But actually having to pront something up and look up Dungeons adress in teh US - then go through all the trouble of buying a stamp...that alone was probably enough to cut back on the number of submissions dramatically.
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Kobold Press
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Any one of us can write and email and probably dozens or hundreds do. But actually having to pront something up and look up Dungeons adress in teh US - then go through all the trouble of buying a stamp...that alone was probably enough to cut back on the number of submissions dramatically.
Yeah, that what I was trying to drive at previously. Email is easier, so the number of submissions is probably higher. The number of good submissions tends to be constant, though...
I was always most impressed with the overseas contributors, such as Willy Walsh. Not only did they send their manuscripts through slower surface mail, they also had to buy International Reply Coupons so that the manuscripts could be returned to them with comments (and queries could be accepted/rejected on the contributor's dime, rather than bankrupting TSR).
I'm not even sure they still MAKE International Reply Coupons, but I'm betting the current Paizo staff have never seen them. Which is all to the good.
Oh, we've seen them. As to whether we've ever _used_ them, well, that's something of an open question.
--Erik
You see them but you don't use them?
Its like something out of 'The Simpsons'.
I can just see the staff sitting around the lunch table trying to buy the best bits of each others lunchs with unused stacks of international reply coupons.
Honestly, I'd say we get about four of these a year, and they're almost always from people who also provide an email address we use to discuss changes and whatnot.
--Erik
Just an attempt at humour.
I don't actually believe that you guys sit around bidding for the choice bits of each others lunches using International Reply Coupons as currency.
Honestly, I'd say we get about four of these a year, and they're almost always from people who also provide an email address we use to discuss changes and whatnot.
--Erik
Just an attempt at humour.
I don't actually believe that you guys sit around bidding for the choice bits of each others lunches using International Reply Coupons as currency.
Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and now this.... Are all my childhood dreams destined to crumble?
GGG
Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny and now this.... Are all my childhood dreams destined to crumble?
GGG
yep