Its a toss up between the Scout and Favored Soul for me.
But I'm leaning on the Scout because I really like the skirmish ability.
I still think the very first one -- The Hexblade -- from CW fills a much-needed niche without being unbalanced from the other classes. But my heart goes to the Swashbuckler, even though I've built swashbucklers out of everything from rogues, fighters, clerics and even paladins.
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I really like the war mage 'cause it somehow fulfills a childhood dream of mine.Back then i always wanted to play wizards that were specialized on all the devastating spells in the game.By now i really like the more subtle spells (like most of the illusion spells) which i just found boring back thenI'd really like to play a War Mage with the Force Missile Mage-Prc from Dragon #328, which would be lots of fun...
I have to say that I prefer the PHB core classes to anything that has been released since. New core classes just don't do anything for me. Most would be better as "low level for entry" 15 level Prestige classes. Even the prestige classes tend to smack of the old Kits from 2ed which were great if you were a player that couldn't create the character type you wanted through item selection and good old fasion role playing.
But hey, that's just me.
ASEO out
of the new base classes in the complete series I have to say that my favorites are the Hex Blade, Favored Soul, and Warlock, which I like all about equaly. I am also rather fond of the Marshal from the Minis Handbook. I have little use for the oriental type classes, and none of the classes from the CA impressed me over much.
I really like the Hexblade and Warmage, but my favorite has to be the Warlock. Ever since I first started playing D&D I've loved arcanist classes, but would go nuts because, particularly at low levels, I'd quickly run out of spells. A backup to this was carrying a ranged weapon, but I've never been a great fan of crossbows, spending a feat for bow proficiency isn't a good option for a spellcaster, and I eventually get tired of always playing elves. Also, even at higher levels, if a powerful monster decides to take out the wizard first then I'm in deep doo doo. The Warlock is a great alternative. I get magical ranged attacks and other magical abilities that supplement my personal style (sneaky, snarky, and -whenever possible- just plain mean). I don't get many such abilities but I can use them freely without them running out, and I can wear at least light armor. Frikkin sweet.
I hate to say this, but Favored Soul is probably, overall, the best one, IF you can qualify for it. Monk Saves, Cleric Spells, weapon specialization? It's easy to take Divine Power, Righteous Might, a god whose favored weapon is a longspear, a greataxe, or a spiked chain, and kick butt.
For this class, Power Attack and Divine Might are awesome feats, because you have to boost your charisma anyway. Consider also a couple levels of Paladin to get a saving throw boost, even though you don't really need it.
As soon as you get weapon specialization, you hop into a PRC, because the spell improvements are way better than the class abilities. Divine Oracle and, if you play in FR, Divine Disciple are GREAT choices for you.
Spirit Shaman is also particularly ridiculous, as there's a cracked combo in it that rules. You take Spontaneous Healer AND Spontaneous Summoner, and memorize any other spells you want.
Warlock is VERY powerful, but I hate it. I hate it for the same reason I hate Marshall. These mechanics are really stupid and do not function like anything else in the game. If all the other classes have spells, why the heck do we need THIS stuff? It adds new SETS of rules, and doesn't modify existing ones. I consider the Warlock and the Marshall mechanically unnecessary, though I have (Somewhat miserably) allowed them in my games.
As a side note to this, the revised Wu Jen is BLOODY USELESS. This is up there with Sorcerer. :)
There is no reason to EVER take more than six levels of this class. Spell secrets stink, and the taboos are actually crippling when you get more than two or three of them.
Furthermore, NONE OF THE BOOKS list which spells in those books are actually Wu Jen spells also.
A list of spells in all existing texts which are also Wu Jen spells would be much appreciated, o folks at Paizo. :)
Furthermore, NONE OF THE BOOKS list which spells in those books are actually Wu Jen spells also.
The Wu Jen spell list is in many ways similar to the Wizard/Sorceror spell list, with some extra spells and lacking other W/S spells. And unlike, say, the Hexblade and Assasin, the Wu Jen's ENTIRE spell list is found in the Complete Arcane. There is no need for a sidebar in that book listing spells from other sourcebooks for that class, like there are for the Hexblade and Assasin, because they're all on that list. I haven't purchased any other sourcebooks since CA (though the Complete Adventurer is at the top of my list) but I would imagine that any such publications do/will include such a sidebar if they have any spells for the Wu Jen to use. As far as taboos, they nedn't be "crippling." They're mostly roleplaying restrictions, tohugh some mechanic related things can be easily placed in. Examples off the top of my head are that the character can't wear anything blue, speak their own name, eat fish, lie, touch frogs, wield a bladed weapon, ride a black horse, or travel in a covered wagon. A creative roleplayer can easily come up with taboos that don't "cripple" the character but still have an impact on their behavior in the game.
As to the Warlock being overly complex, I say you should take the five minutes to read over the invocation rules an extra time or two. In function they are nearly identical to spells, the only real difference being that a Warlock knows fewer invocations than most spellcasters know spells but they have no limit on how many they can use per day. They are, by definition, spell like abilities that can be used at will. They have the same mechanics as spells: duration, range, # of targets, saving throws, etc. Even the formula for save DCs versus an invocation is barely different than that of spells.
And Sorceror a useless class? It's a different version of the Wizard, trading spell selection for being able to cast a smaller number of spells more often and with increased versatility (no preparation). Which a player chooses is personal style and preference.
Gee, Michael, tell us how you really feel.
Creative Director
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Scout. Hands down the coolest new core class. Them scouts are CRAZY! Warlock's probably my second favorite, and then it's probably a tie between the swashbuckler and the war mage.
Although I did have a character who has a kobold samurai cohort; if that game ever starts up I'll have to take a good look at the samurai too.
I think that the Scout looks pretty cool also, but I usually prefer to play magic users of some type or another and I haven't gotten around to buying Complete Adventurer yet. If I were to make a non-magic using character, I'd probably go with a Scout though because I like the combination of speed and finesse along with some good old beating.
I like the Spellthief.
I've always needed a good reason to keep my foes in my pocket as little stone turtles.
(Use Baleful Polymorph to make your enemies into tiny Turtles, then use Flesh to Stone to petrify them. Petrified characters count as Unconcious, and so also count as Willing. Steal spells and other stuff off them at will as a standard action.)
Gotta catch 'em all!!!
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Gotta catch 'em all!!!
Poke-Dungeon...you're sick! I love it!
I know this is somewhat sideline, but I've been having lots of fun with the Chaos Mage (out of Mongoose Press). The setting we are in is a Bronze Age type world and there are only limited wizard colleges, so classes like sorcerers and chaos mages fit in nicely. I know part of my love of the class comes from years of reading Shade the Changing Man comics from DC. I love the potentiality of spellweaves and the knowledge that by chance it could litterally blow up in your face and the Powers of Chaos could care less.
And unlike, say, the Hexblade and Assasin, the Wu Jen's ENTIRE spell list is found in the Complete Arcane.
You are not correct, sir. Many of the new books have new assassin spells.
They offer new core classes, but they do not offer the same level of comprehensive support for them, which, IMHO, is horsepucky. Once you create a "CORE" class, you have to treat it as if it were a core class.
And unlike, say, the Hexblade and Assasin, the Wu Jen's ENTIRE spell list is found in the Complete Arcane.
You are not correct, sir. Many of the new books have new assassin spells.
They offer new core classes, but they do not offer the same level of comprehensive support for them, which, IMHO, is horsepucky. Once you create a "CORE" class, you have to treat it as if it were a core class.
I'm not correct? Take a look at Complete Arcane, the Wu Jen spell list occupies four and a half pages, starting on 91 and ending on 95 (I have the book handy because I was just making a character with it). That list looks pretty comprehensive to me. Any books published before CA won't have any Wu Jen spells listed because, oficially at least, the Wu Jen did not exist when those books were made. You can't "support" something before it exists. Complete Arcane is also a fairly recent release.
And what, precisely, did I say to suggest that few or no books do not include new Assasin spells? I recall mentioning specifically that such information *is* present, when I said "There is no need for a sidebar in that book listing spells from other sourcebooks for that class, like there are for the Hexblade and Assasin, because they're all on that list." The Assasin has a specific section in the spells chapter of CA, for example, and the Hexblade has a small sidebar on page 94.
As to other "new" core classes, most don't really need updating; only spellcasting classes really need such attention and even they only need it when new spells are introduced that can be added to their spell lists. They seem to be doing that with the Hexblade, at least, and I've personally not seen any missed opportunities where such information would be relevant but is not present.
Please give me an example of one publication which should, but does not, include a class specific update, such as (but not limited to) additions to a spell list. Keep in mind that it would be silly to expect an update on the Favored Soul, a divine class, in a book like Complete Arcane or such; there is no new information truly relevant to that class in that book.
For a PC, I like the Swashbuckler. Baddassness combined with puffy silk shirts...
For an NPC, I like the Warlock. What a great idea for a class, and I think it was a long time coming. The Warlock is such a great stereotypical bad/misunderstood guy, and after all, how many non-TSR/WOTC fantasy/fiction books and movies have had warlock-types in them? It already feels like a classic.
Although I did have a character who has a kobold samurai cohort; if that game ever starts up I'll have to take a good look at the samurai too.
Would that be an Oriental Adventures samurai or a the one in Complete Warrior. Personally I think the latter sucked most of the cool out of the OA version. In OA the samurai was to the fighter what the sorcerer is to the wizard. Over the course of 20 levels you lost a couple of bonus feats, but got better saves, better skills, more skill points and some customization. The more current version is basically a scary-looking ranger from 3.0 and doesn't really fit actual samurai who almost never used two-weapons standard (check out the following: Seven Samurai, Shogun Assassin (or anything Lone Wolf and Cub), Yojimbo, Sanjiro, any Zatoichi film, etc....). Heck I think even WotC's resident expert, James Wyatt says as much in OA.
Whew, glad I got that off of my chest,
GGG
Oh yeah, I'll buckle some swash any day.
Well, here's my vote for Warlock. So far it's the only new "core" class I've gotten to play. As soon as my group starts up a new adventure I'll try Scout and then HexBlade.
I really like the versatility of the Warlock. I've always like casters but have never like the spell administration at the higher levels. Warlock solves that, caster feel, no real spell list issues. So far I'm loving it.
ok what game re we talking about? cause i just got into D&D and i'm going to be playing WoW and some of the classes sound like their from WoW
ok what game re we talking about? cause i just got into D&D and i'm going to be playing WoW and some of the classes sound like their from WoW
Hey Merlin,
Welcome to D&D... I've been playing off and on for 20+ years... if youre in the right group to start yourself out, your in for a great experience! Good luck!
As to your question, if you've been through the Player's Handbook, you've already seen the 11 core classes of D&D (Barbarian, Bard, etc.).
However, in the last year, there have been 4 PC suppliments expanding the game with new spells, weapons, ideas for characters, etc. Also, in each suppliment, there are 3 new core classes listed that you can begin play with at first level:
Complete Warrior - Heblade, Swashbuckler, Samuri
Complete Divine - Favored Soul, Spirit Shaman, Shugenja
Complete Arcane - Warlock, Warmage, Wu Jen
Complete Adventurer - Ninja, Scout, Spellthief
These are the 12 classes we're debating about. Again, have fun and welcome to D&D!
A note on such classes, I spent a while yesterday making a Warlock. It took a while because I was on a big caffeine trip and easily distracted, but I got it done. So now my human lesbian warmage has a paranoid kobold warlock for a cohort. He should prove an interesting way to bring out some personality traits in the warmage that the other players haven't done enough good roleplaying to notice (one new player, two bad roleplayers, me and the DM).
I've been the unofficial official colorful character person for my group ever since I, mostly by accident, made a certain evoker character of mine insane by being drunk the first time I played him (and the DM's numerous unsuccessful attempts to "straighten him out" were amusing as well: crazy wizard + high ego intelligent Holy Avenger = crazy paladin with magic missiles). Others of note are the bad tempered drow Hexblade, the halfling fighter/master thrower with a pirate background and who's idea of solving any problem involved throwing hammers at it, a flighty and foul mouthed stripper bard, and a particularly vindictive cleric of Wee Jas who would withold healing spells from PCs who were "useless jackasses."
Not that I don't take the character seriously; I spend hours of cumulative time thinking out their personalities, how they'd react to certain situations, etc (usually when driving, mowing grass, or anything else noncerebral). When I'm done, the character is very well defined in my head and when it's game time they sort of take on lives of their own. I've learned that getting into character like this is actually good practice for stage acting (I've been fairly active in the college theater in the past few years).
I have to say that I prefer the PHB core classes to anything that has been released since. New core classes just don't do anything for me. Most would be better as "low level for entry" 15 level Prestige classes. Even the prestige classes tend to smack of the old Kits from 2ed which were great if you were a player that couldn't create the character type you wanted through item selection and good old fasion role playing.
But hey, that's just me.
Nope, I'm with you when it comes to preferring the PHB core classes to any of the new ones. There may be campaign-specific reasons why a particular new class might be relevant, but most of the time it would be just as easy to set them up as prestige classes. Then again, I'm also not a big fan of most prestige classes.... Most players seem to have some sort of bizarre fascination with picking the right prestige class, rather than simply playing the character better. :-(
I think of prestige classes more of an extension of the character's style. Like I had a character that was a halfling fighter who, obviously, wasn't particularly fond of getting up close and personal with opponents that were capable of picking him up and tossing him over their shoulders (or many nastier things one can do to somebody a fraction of their size). At least if I was a halfling I know I wouldn't wasnt to start attacking an ogre at the shins. So I picked up the master thrower prestige class and a couple of returning light hhhhhammers as soon as I could. I later added flaming and shocking features to the hammers (one each), further amplifying the damage. This character's backstory was that he had been a pirate for some time, so he already wore light armor and focused on quickness rather than brute force (though he'd often "assist" our rogue in opening locked doors with his hammers, often setting off traps in the rogue's face-then again he didn't really like the rogue). That prestige class worked quite well for the character I already had.
Another way of thinking about prestige classes is not as an easy way out to playing a character but a focus on which to build a character. Remember that the fun of a roleplaying game is to act out things (in your imagination) that you think would be cool to do. Some of the things that prestige classes enable characters to do are, quite honestly, really cool. While any member of a particular prestige class has pretty much the same abilities, that doesn't mean they go about them the same way; this is where personal style and roleplaying comes in. Everybody that reads a prestige class description comes away with a slightly different idea of what a member of such a class is like, and I think that prestige classes are a great way to help newer players develop their roleplaying abilities.
I usually get excited when I read about new Prestige classes, but ironically, when I make a character, they never fit into any of them. So I just end up playing the straight class, maybe with multiclass...
I'm going to try the Swashbuckler though, and I have a couple Warlock NPCs aready. If anything, they've been fun to try out.
I finally got around to buying Complete Adventurer today and, upon closer perusal, I actually like the Ninja over the Scout. The Scout is still cool, but the Ninja is really cool. I'm already working a Ninja NPC in as one of the villains in a campaign I recently started writing.
I'm also going to use several prestige classes from this book for other villains (I haven't worked on much more than concept before today, and hadn't gotten around to specifics on the villains, good thing I waited!). I figured that for a change of pace I'd write less of a dungeon crawl and more of a political/mystery/intrigue campaign, and instead of a single villain have a "party" of four or five villains working things behind the scenes (trying to start a war between two kingdoms). Some of these classes allow for that kind of stuff but doesn't sacrifice combat ability (woe to the PC that isn't on their toes when the Ghost-Faced Killer villain is nearby!). I think that the Master of Many Forms villain I'm drawing up should throw them for a real loop...I wonder how many times they'll meet him before figuring out it's been the same person (or pidgeon)?
I'm a fan of the warlock too, that is what I'm currently playing also. I love paladins and I also enjoy a thief with an archer feel
I'm going with Warlock too. In fact I'm starting in a campaign next week with a level 6 Warlock. I can't wait.
My other favotrite would be Scout. In fact, a Warlock scout provided so lots of versatility and extra damage for the Warlock when you use skirmish.
Out of the Complete series I would have to say scout, though I haven't actualy played any of them, and only DMed one session with a swashbuckler.
Out of all the core classes I've seen, my vote goes for the unfettered from Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. I played an unfettered/akashic for several sessions and loved it. The magister looked good too, especialy with the new, much improved, magic system, but unfortunetly my faen magister was just one of many characters who died before I ended up with the unfettered/akashic that ended my string of dying once or twice a night...
At first I was resistant to the new base classes. I love the 11 from the PH and think that there is enough variety to them to play for the rest of your bloody life, but then I got to looking at them when CW first came out and I drooled over the Hexblade.
So I softened up and opended up. I have to say its a tie between Hexblade and Warlock with Ninja running up a close 2nd. Hexblade is a great idea to begin with and Warlock does feel like a classic already as someone already pointed out.
Oh, and Flushmaster... Do you work for Wizards of the Coast already, if not you should man. Thats some of the best persuasive argument I've seen on these message boards. Keep up the good work
Me I favor the Ninja class. I have recently been able to play a warlock and I find it very intresting my style as a spell caster type class. Yet it nay touches the mystery and just plain excitment I get from playing a ninja. I even plan to write a story about a lost, or rather obscure clan of ninja.
Oh, and Flushmaster... Do you work for Wizards of the Coast already, if not you should man. Thats some of the best persuasive argument I've seen on these message boards. Keep up the good work
No, I don't work for WoTC. I'm just opinionated and have had a lot of practice voicing my opinion. As they say, practice makes parfect ;) Now if somebody out there wants to give me a job for being opinionated, I'd gladly take that position. Until then I guess I'll have to stick with less glamorous jobs like bookstore clerk. Darn.
Hexblade was the first that caught my attention, and I think that Swashbuckler just seemed logical instead of making it a prestige class. Samurai is nothing compared to the OA samurai, and that is pretty much true of all of the "asian" classes that appear in the Complete books.
Different game mechanics aside, I like the Marshall and I think it really does fill in a niche. I also thought of this . . . I often like to play rangers that do not gain all of their spells, since that seems to distract from the stealth/tracking, kill enemies in the wild aspect of them, and I like the idea of multi-classing into scout.
In the newest Dragon, I was disappointed to read Erik Mona’s response to the letter regarding adding one non-core class to the Class Acts section every month. Some of these classes are just plain neat, and deserve continued support (especially since they’re non-SRD and CAN’T receive support through any other company’s products), so it was a little disheartening to learn that, the occasional article aside, these non-core classes won’t be receiving semi-regular support.
As for my favorites of the non-core classes:
The Marshall (Miniatures Handbook) – I’m kind of digging on this one. Not as much as some of the others, but it looks as if it could present some interesting role-playing opportunities if nothing else. I haven’t tried it out yet, but I’d be up for giving it a shot.
The Hexblade (Complete Divine) – This is a fun one. I like the blend of magic and martial with this class, and while this probably really shouldn’t be a factor, I like the accompanying artwork. :) Again, haven’t had the opportunity to play one, but it looks good on paper to me.
The Warlock (Complete Arcane) – This is my favorite. Hands down. No question. It took me a couple of read-throughs to wrap my head completely around the class, and I know there’s talk of an official errata being released regarding some of the vagueness involved, but, man, I love this class. Unlike some of the others I’m listing here, I have had an opportunity to play this in a one-shot style game, and had a blast with it. (Whenever I can, I write up a short story-like character background for all the characters I play. If anyone’s interested, you can check out my 1st-level fight/7th-level warlock Donovain Cathairn at http://home.comcast.net/~dau.koch/Descent.pdf.) I’d love to see further support for this class.
The Spellthief (Complete Adventurer) – I like the concept, but haven’t spent a lot of time really looking at it too closely. One of my friends/fellow players is itching to play a tiefling spellthief in an upcoming game, though, and to hear him talk about it, it sounds like it could be a lot of fun.
The Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior) – If nothing else, this core class is screaming with character. I played in a game in which someone else played a swashbuckler, and he seemed to have a blast with it.
The Psychic Warrior (Expanded Psionics Handbook) – This class IS part of the SRD, I realize, but I still wanted to mention it here. I was never a fan of psionics until the Expanded… book was released; now I totally enjoy them, and the psychic warrior is one of my favorites. Like the hexblade above, it mixes martial with some “magic,” offering a psionic alternative to players that sometimes get forced into playing the role of the party’s magic user when a sorcerer or wizard isn’t present.
I've used the Marshall class to good effect as an NPC.
I'm hopeful to incorporate either Swashbuckler or Scout in my next Eberron adventure.
I've used the Marshall class to good effect as an NPC.
I think that's probably the best way to introduce a class like the marshall. I'm considering bringing one in to the campaign I'm running right now.
I'm hopeful to incorporate either Swashbuckler or Scout in my next Eberron adventure.
The scout just leaves me feeling flat. It's a good class, but there have been other "scout" classes released by some of the other d20 publishers out there (Alderac and hasn't Mongoose put one out as well?), so it was really difficult for me to work up any excitement for a class that's already been kinda of covered by other publishers . . .
Well if you count psionics too, I love the psion telepath, its fun to enter peoples mind while they are asleep and say that your a ghost. MUHAHAHAHA
I actually like a shugenja with the water element. The wujen was close to what I wanted, but a shugenja has all of the things I like about clerics plus the fluff. I also love the psychic warrior. Nothing beats growing large and beating someone senseless with a huge greatclub.
Here's an interesting conundrum. If you were able to put together a new edition of the Player's Handbook, and could include 12 core classes (only) from any source, what would they be?
Here's an interesting conundrum. If you were able to put together a new edition of the Player's Handbook, and could include 12 core classes (only) from any source, what would they be?
I think this really depends on the campaign thats going to be run. In some campaigns the Theif is a great class with lots of adventures based around a Thiefs abilities and skills. In an adventure thats all about dungeon delving however the thief is often little more then trap detection guy.