Question about Grappling and Attacks of Opportunity


Rules Questions


Grapple wrote:

As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. ... If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices).

...
Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Appendix 2). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Conditions said wrote:

Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. ... Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. ... Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

So, if I understand the grappling rules and the resulting conditions correctly, if a PC pins an enemy, he gains the grappling condition, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC, and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Strangler Archetype wrote:
Practiced Strangler (Ex): At 2nd level, when a strangler has the grappled condition, she does not take a –4 penalty to Dexterity and does not lose her Dexterity bonus to AC. At 9th level, a grappling or grappled strangler still threatens an area and is still able to make attacks of opportunity while grappling or grappled; when pinned, she is not denied her Dexterity bonus and does not take a –4 penalty to Armor Class.
Unarmed Fighter Archetype wrote:
Clever Wrestler (Ex): At 7th level, an unarmed fighter takes no penalties to Dexterity or on attack rolls while grappled, and retains his Dexterity bonus to AC while pinning an opponent. The unarmed fighter can make attacks of opportunity even when grappled and even against creatures attempting to grapple him if the opponent has the Improved Grapple feat or the grab ability.

The above descriptions confirm for me that the inability to make attacks of opportunity is a function of having the grappled condition, not of having one's Dexterity bonus denied.

Is there a way for a grappling character to retain his Dexterity bonus to AC and make attacks of opportunity without taking an Archetype like the Strangler or the Unarmed Fighter? I saw the Grabbing Style feats ...

Grabbing Style feat wrote:
... Additionally, you do not lose your Dexterity bonus to AC while pinning an opponent.

... but if I understand it correctly, this feat doesn't do anything about you having the grappled condition, and thus does not allow you to make attacks of opportunity.


If you have the Grab special attack you can choose to start/maintain the grapple with a -20 penalty and not gain the grappled condition yourself.


Phoebus Alexandros wrote:
Grapple wrote:

As a standard action, you can attempt to grapple a foe, hindering his combat options. ... If successful, both you and the target gain the grappled condition (see the Appendices).

...
Pin: You can give your opponent the pinned condition (see Appendix 2). Despite pinning your opponent, you still only have the grappled condition, but you lose your Dexterity bonus to AC.
Conditions said wrote:

Grappled: A grappled creature is restrained by a creature, trap, or effect. Grappled creatures cannot move and take a –4 penalty to Dexterity. A grappled creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks, except those made to grapple or escape a grapple. ... Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity.

Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. ... Pinned is a more severe version of grappled, and their effects do not stack.

So, if I understand the grappling rules and the resulting conditions correctly, if a PC pins an enemy, he gains the grappling condition, loses his Dexterity bonus to AC, and cannot make attacks of opportunity.

It doesn't say the pinner loses their dex to AC, just the pinned creature. The pinner still retains the regular grappled condition (-4 Dex, -2 atk, no AoO, can't move), but the pinned upgrades their conditioned to pinned (all of grappled penalties, denied dex (if it still has a positive bonus/sneak triggers) -4 AC, can't non-mental take actions but to break out).


Trokarr wrote:
If you have the Grab special attack you can choose to start/maintain the grapple with a -20 penalty and not gain the grappled condition yourself.

Short of taking levels in Tatori Monk, is there a way for a humanoid character to get that ability?

AwesomenessDog wrote:
It doesn't say the pinner loses their dex to AC, just the pinned creature. The pinner still retains the regular grappled condition (-4 Dex, -2 atk, no AoO, can't move), but the pinned upgrades their conditioned to pinned (all of grappled penalties, denied dex (if it still has a positive bonus/sneak triggers) -4 AC, can't non-mental take actions but to break out).

The Grapple section explicitly states that both the character pinning the enemy and the pinned enemy lose their Dexterity bonus.


Phoebus Alexandros wrote:
Trokarr wrote:
If you have the Grab special attack you can choose to start/maintain the grapple with a -20 penalty and not gain the grappled condition yourself.
Short of taking levels in Tatori Monk, is there a way for a humanoid character to get that ability?

Maybe not that SPECIFIC ability, but something that is functionally the same, is the Grapple ability of the White-haired Witch. Whatever you grapple with the Hair gains the grapple condition, and you do not, without the huge penalty to your grapple check.


Thank you all, I appreciate your insight!


2 levels in Alchemist will let u take the Tentacle discovery which has the Grab special attack. The tentacle is a secondary natural attack but if you possess only the tentacle attack and no other natural attacks it will be counted as a primary natural attack and then not have the -5 penalty to hit.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Question about Grappling and Attacks of Opportunity All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.