...if you actually read this Wil, I'd love to have you stop in for a game if you are ever in the Oklahoma City area...Whereabouts in OKC? Do you ever get into Game HQ? A great LGS. I plugged them in my bio in #106.
89th and Penn. Game HQ is great and has the best used selection in town. I saw your plug. Good adventure by the way, Tammeraut's Fate.
I currently live in Norman.
Despite Wil Save, DUNGEON is by far the greatest gaming resource on the market. Keep the quality adventures in-bound, and a Great Job on the poster map! It brought tears to my eyes.
ASEO out
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I didn't want to be the one to point it out, because it probably sounds petty. Did you notice that his magic item was a "+1 wand of winning".
I played 1st, 2nd and 3rd edition D&D. You never get a +1 wand of anything. If it was a rod, that would have been fine. But a wand?
Does Wil think that putting a +1 in front of anything makes it "D&D"? I don't. I actually find it kind of insulting. I agree with what Aseo has said about putting a "geek" face on gaming. If he is going to write the article, he should at least pretend he knows the rules.
By the way, I think people are labouring under a misapprehension... From what I know of Wil, he doesn't have a couple extra zeroes on the end of his paycheque. Being a _former_ Hollywood B-list (if that) star isn't exactly a high-paying job... He's not poor, I'm confident of that, but he's not exactly living the high life either. From a couple of comments I've read from him on his blog, I'm fairly confident I know at least a couple people who make more than him on an annual basis.
. My friends and I keep joking about how he sounds like he's going thru a mid-life crisis. Every article points out some reason why he should be happy with who he is... (I have a loving family, my friends respect my 'Star Trek' career, I have important friends, I made good money in Vegas!...) It'z like watching him break down... It'z kinda sad really LOL Most people just buy a sports car, he writes for a magazine... same diff... That or he's just a braggart...
I'd have to whole-heartedly disagree. I think the article is fine, for the record, and I also believe in constructive cristicism and out-spoken fans who express their distaste for certain articles. That's what a forum is all about. However, blantantly attacking Mr. Wheaton's article as an expression of a mid-life crisis is both rude and innapropriate. The article (IMO) adds a wonderful perspective to the hobby. If you don't like Wil Save, don't read it.
I have to say that while I cannot, in honestly, recommend Wil Save as a regular column in Dungeon, it's already better than a whole lot of other articles and columns Dungeon and Dragon has hosted in the past. Gary Gygax's Up on a Soapbox, for example, actually had a negative impact on me; I figured that anyone who published that sort of view should not receive support from me.
It's also more useful to me than some of the Modern or SW maps that have appeared in the past. I know I can modify them to suit my campaigns, but it really is a great stretch to try to convert a Starship into something usable for a campaign.
Compared to many things, Wil Save is positively entertaining and enjoyable. Whatever else you say about him, the man can write, which is more than I can say for Gygax whose views and writing style both suck. Will he even ever get over his self-conscious yet uncompromisingly condescending attitude? Beside him, Wheaton looks quite self-deprecating, humble even.
The ironic part is that we started talking about how in his VERY FIRST article, he said he doesn't play D&D anymore... :/
You mean his first article where he talks about starting a campaign for his step-son?
We were wondering why someone who'z not even playing the game anymore is writing the article...
I’m not on the Dungeon staff, and I’m just guessin’ here, but possibly because he *is* a D&D-playin’ celebrity geek and has one of the most popular blogs on the web?
Whenever I see him on TV (back in ST:TNG and today on celebrity game shows and whatnot), he strikes me as embarrassingly awkward and self-conscious. But he’s apparently delightfully aware of that.
Wil Save too dorky for you? No problem. I understand. Personally, in regular life, I'm an Olympic swimmer and rock guitarist who spends his nights fending off amorous groupies, so Wil's column doesn't speak to me at all. But it probably strikes a chord with some other gamers.
If nothing else, Wil Save gives us all a reason to come to the messageboards, which is cool with us here. : )
At least, Roxlimn, Gary Gygax has a foundation on which to stand on seeing he is the father of D&D. Who is Wil Wheaton to give me his take on D&D in an article every month? Gary Gygax can condescend to me if he wants to (he is not talking to me personally) I would still have to respect his opinion because I admire his genius in creating the finest RPG ever. If you were on a sinking ship, would you listen to the captain of the ship as he barked orders in a sneering tone or some glib mouthpiece with no idea whatsoever what he was talking about?
If you were on a sinking ship, would you listen to the captain of the ship as he barked orders in a sneering tone or some glib mouthpiece with no idea whatsoever what he was talking about?
A more accurate comparison would be: "If you were watching a play, would you pay attention to the actors who are working hard to put on a performance, or to the bitter architect who is complaining in the back of the auditorium?"
I agree. Just because Gary Gygax made the original game concept doesn't mean that he's a good writer, or that his stand on the social aspects of the game are at all worthwhile. Whether he can accept it or not, D&D has evolved beyond his ability to adapt to it, and he's sadly nothing more than a relic of the past. For his sake, I'm glad that many people still appreciate his view of the game, but his inability to write still makes him a bad columnist.
I respect businessmen as much as the next guy, and I'd probably listen to what they have to say in small doses, but I wouldn't hire one to teach me in business class unless he was also a good teacher, which is not necessarily true for all businessmen.
Who is Wil Wheaton to give you his take on D&D every month? He's a gamer, that's who he is, and he's a decent writer. Both of these qualities together make him more qualified to write a column than Mr. Gygax, and it shows.
Undoubtedly, Monte Cook, James Wyatt, and Jonathan Tweet have more chops and are more qualified to comment on crunchy parts of the game, but any gamer is qualified to comment on the social aspects of the game. What makes Mr. Wheaton better as a columnist for Wil Save than any of these other writers is that he's actually a better writer. Have you honestly been so entertained and engrossed by Dungeoncraft that it was "un-put-downable" as a review might blurb? In fact, if you aren't particularly interested in what the Dungeoncraft article is talking about, it's downright unreadable.
A more accurate comparison, Elven Doritos? Thank you for your correction.Inappropiate comments from Taricus? It seems you might have a bit of superiority complex. The last time I checked, you were not a moderator on this board. If Wil does it for you great, I am glad, but I am sorry, if Gygax has an article in Dungeon, my ears prick up faster than a blurb by Wil Wheaton. Wil is a gamer, so am I. I consider myself a decent writer as well; according to you guys, Wil is too. Do I deserve to write an article in Dungeon every month? I don't think so. So what seperates me from Wil? Celebrity status? His appeal to the trekkies maybe who may be lumped in with the majority of Dungeon magazine readers because it fits the sci-fi/fantasy geek status? I did not know who Wil Wheaton was until I saw his article in Dungeon. If you enjoy his writing and are willing to defend him for it, great,I can understand that. Or maybe you are a trekkie who liked Wil Wheaton's performance on whatever Star Trek he was on. I just saw his article in Dungeon with no notion of who he was and I just cannot see why it is there. If Doritos or Roxlimn can tell me what I am supposed to get out of this article besides entertainment value(which is not working for me either), enlighten me.
Taricus.
If you've already expressed your distate for the article, I'm sure the Dungeon staff and others have taken that into account. Reading it every month just to attack it online, however, is pointless. In reality, the only people who care about what you're saying are you and whatever cronies of yours that you hang out with.
To settle this whole "Wil Save" conundrum, why doesn't Dungeon just have an online poll? That way, the "debate" can be put to rest and we can all get back to trying to assemble our next haphazard campaign or whatever.
Possibly... I don't know about 'most popular blog on the web', seeing as how I had never heard about it, before the credit in one of the mags, and neither had my friends.
I doubt it's the single most popular, but it's definitely up there. :-)
Paul McCarthy:
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"I consider myself a decent writer as well; according to you guys, Wil is too. Do I deserve to write an article in Dungeon every month? I don't think so. So what seperates me from Wil? Celebrity status?"
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Well, for one thing, if you think that Gary Gygax is good reading and you write the way you post, no you aren't a decent writer. In fact, if you're a good writer, get your butt to Dungeon. They could use a good writer, or at least an editor to make articles more lively. I doubt you'll get a paying job, but who knows?
Wil has an entertaining style and he actually writes well. I don't particularly care for or understand Vegas, but the last time I read Wil Save, I could totally see it and appreciate it.
If it's not working for you, then I'm quite sorry. Hopefully, you'll find something in the other pages of Dungeon to keep your mind off this one page.
I do not write the way I post on this board, Roxlimn. This is a quick blurb here to speak my mind and not the laborious process of writing and editing stories. I am glad you do not approve of my writing, that makes me feel a whole lot better actually. Maybe you can provide us with some of your wonderful insight and ask for an editing job at Dungeon and enlighten all of us with your skills. Seeing Dungeon Magazine doesn't meet your standards either, my writing would hardly compare. Get my butt to Dungeon? I am sorry, I use Dungeon Magazine as a springboard for my ideas and would not even attempt to create an adventure involving NPC creation, maps and the placement of appropriate treasure and enemies. Writing is hard enough, and I give a lot of credit to the guys and gals who write this stuff. It seems like you and your Dorito buddy there have a lot of open hostility to those who disagree with you. Giving commands on a message board does not seem like a mature way to deal with someone who doesn't share your opinion. But I digress, I'll let YOUR writing do the talking.
And yet you fail to give Wil Wheaton his due? I'm sorry, but I'm not the one here who bragged that he wrote just as well as a paid columnist, so I don't need to put my pen where my mouth is.
In truth, I'm not really being hostile here, either, so I can't imagine where you're getting this hostile vibe from. I was saying that if you think you can write as well or better than Wil Wheaton does, then put your money where your mouth is and hie off to Dungeon and write there yourself. If not, just let the man be and let him do his job.
I do not give Wil Wheaton his due because he does not create any of the aforementioned informative articles or adventures, but his own column on how D&D affects his life. I am really not interested on this guy's take. If I wrote in to Dungeon magazine, do I think I would receive the same consideration that Wil Wheaton receives who already has his own paying article in Dungeon and enjoys celebrity status? I am not that nieve. And in case you didn't notice the name of this thread, like Taricus said, is failed Wil Save. If you do not enjoy negative feedback about Wil's articles, then may I suggest you avoid this string altogether. And I do not NEED to put my pen where my mouth is. Another command, Roxlimn? I can and will speak my mind about how I feel about this article whether I write into Dungeon or not or on your say so. Now that I think about it, after reading Wil's latest take and watching him flounder for information, maybe Wil's article will run it's course. Then if Dungeon is looking for a new writer for an article, I will certainly write in. Until then, I am very content to write for myself and the satisfaction and fulfillment it gives me.
Well, another month has gone by and we're left with another useless column by Wheaton. I'm not at all sure what it is I'm supposed to take away from this installment, but a story about Wil dropping D&D references while gambling with his millionaire buddy in Vegas does little to impress or even entertain me. By comparison, the earlier articles, which I rated as poor at best, were better than this. Again, it makes me question the whole point of the article's presence in Dungeon. If it is there to put a semi-celebrity face on the game, then it's satisfying that pledge, but accomplishing little else in the bargain. If it has a story arc to which we are not privvy, then at least throw us a bone and let us in on it, because I have no idea where this article is headed.
But then, I don't think Wil does either.
In that case, it is simply a matter of opinion is it not? A matter of taste? I find Gygax repulsive though mildly curious, and you find Wheaton ramblingly pointless. On the other hand, there are a great deal of adventures and articles I find questionable in Dungeon, yet you do not find me posting complaints, especially for apparently well received articles. Rather than go off at the mouth, I believe it's more helpful to Dungeon and to everyone if you actually submitted something which might take the place of said article or adventure. Barring that, encourage someone else. And if you can't even find someone else you like and can't say anything positive or construcive, then don't say anything at all.
"And I do not NEED to put my pen where my mouth is."
Well, I suppose that says it all. I mean, it's not like being constructive and positive is a nice thing, is it? What's a little lack of integrity? Complain away. Fire away, my friends.
For the record, though, the thread isn't about trashing someone else's work, though that may be your own sole purpose in posting. The first post asked what the value in Wil Wheaton's articles are, and I posted my opinion on what that value was. This value is subjective, but it is also definitely present, just as I can accept that Gygax's articles might have some value for people who only respect particular kinds of celebrity and not others, on the assumption that celebrity is a respectable thing in itself to begin with.
I can see where you are coming from, Roxlimn but I can't agree with your point of view. If you have problems with some articles with Dungeon, why not address them and realize maybe others may have the same issue? The powers that be on this board read our input and they may take your point of view into consideration. It is better than going silent and not having the problem addressed which just (in my experience) allows the problem to stagnate or worsen. You may have some insightful views that may help the author. I always found truth was a greater power than niceness. Although my truth is not necessarily yours that's where point of view enters into the equation.
I for one think that Wil's article has no rightful place in Dungeon magazine. You do. Do I think Wil is sitting down reading this article crying his eyes out over what Paul McCarthy said about his article? LOL Nay, I think not; he is laughing all the way to the bank watching this string getting longer and if not anything else enjoying the controversy and notoriety his article is creating.
And as I recall you did make some very strong comments about Gary Gygax's work here on this string. What seperates your comments on Gygax's work as opposed to my comments on Wil Wheaton's? Your comments did not fall into the niceness category that you keep bleating on about. Doesn't Gygax deserve the same kind of respect you admonish or only those that you admire fall into this category? Practice what you preach.
I want to thank Dungeon magazine for allowing us to have this forum and let us have some input into our favourite mag. I for one am going to fully exercise this right and if my opinion offends others then so be it. After buying and reading over 100 issues of this magazine I think I can give a valued opinion.
Comparing Gygax's articles to that of Wheaton's is like comparing Mickey Mantle to Fredo the Batboy. Nobody has a burning interest to hear Wheaton's tales of D&D glory, whereas Gygax was there in the beginning, he_co-created_the game, and that drives the interest of many aging gamers who enjoy tales of the good 'ol days.
When we read Gygax's articles, whether they're good or bad, many of us still feel like the proverbial fly on the wall, watching it all go down at the beginning of creation. But I feel nothing of the sort when I read Wheaton's articles. If anything, I look on him as a younger cousin who came late to the game and now tries to pass himself off as somebody who was there from the beginning.
That's not to say that you have to own the white box to feel nostalgic about the game, but Wheaton's attempts at waxing nostalgic are no different than any run of the mill gamer.
Let's face it: the guy has no design credits; he has_never_written about the game before this dream assignment was dropped in his lap; he has nothing to show for his good fortune other than being a former child star whose t.v. show is watched by many fantasy enthusiasts. He's simply a minor celebrity whose fame is being tapped to insure that the game reaches as many people as possible.
Maybe I wouldn't feel this way if the articles were worth something, but they aren't, and I'm tired of waiting for Wil to find his voice. It may be his Wil Save, but we're the ones taking full damage.
Roxlimn said:
"Compared to many things, Wil Save is positively entertaining and enjoyable. Whatever else you say about him, the man can write, which is more than I can say for Gygax whose views and writing style both suck. Will he even ever get over his self-conscious yet uncompromisingly condescending attitude? Beside him, Wheaton looks quite self-deprecating, humble even."
"I agree. Just because Gary Gygax made the original game concept doesn't mean that he's a good writer, or that his stand on the social aspects of the game are at all worthwhile. Whether he can accept it or not, D&D has evolved beyond his ability to adapt to it, and he's sadly nothing more than a relic of the past. For his sake, I'm glad that many people still appreciate his view of the game, but his inability to write still makes him a bad columnist."
"And if you can't even find someone else you like and can't say anything positive or constructive, then don't say anything at all."
Well, I suppose that says it all. I mean, it's not like being constructive and positive is a nice thing, is it? What's a little lack of integrity? Complain away. Fire away, my friends."
Hey, Roxlimn, if you are going to take the moral high ground at least have a leg to stand on. That was quite a glowing recommendation of Mr. Gygax. Maybe you could start your own thread called "Failed Gygax Save" and you can express your displeasure at Mr. Gygax's articles. Then I could come on your thread and tell you what you can or cannot say. Yet I can speak freely, even to the point that I am contradicting myself, and preach to you of behaviour on a messageboard
OK... time for my two cents...
Are you people that cold hearted? I have to believe that as role players in general, and as DM's specifically, you must have some kind of creative and emotional ability. How can you not recognize the very high value in Wil Save?
This article is the reason I actually bought a subscription to Dungeon. When I picked up the re-designed issue with the first of Wil's articles, I was blown away by the fact that a gaming magazine FINALLY chose to publish something other than mind numbingly boring mechanical material, but in fact decided to have an article that spoke to the human side of our hobby. Truly, Wil Save speaks to me.
I have read Dragon and Dungeon off and on for most of my life, and have never really taken them seriously as magazines. That is, periodicals that are worth READING and not just monthlies you buy to USE. Several posts in the thread have eluded to the "uselessness" of this column. I ask you: How can you not see value in someone relating his FEELINGS about the game. The column is heartfelt, warm, introspective, and well written. I applaud the Dungeon staff for evolving to such an extent and including a very human and thought provoking article. And you have a new subscriber because of that fact alone.
I use the magazine's dungeons, and appreciate the DM articles, but I also very much appreciate good writing, and emotional analysis of the game. Do you "Crunchy" DM's depend on Dungeon for your campaigns so that you can have some colorful maps, and room descriptions? Sure, I use these parts too, and I consider myself a great GM (please excuse the arrogance) but it's not anything about a specific trap or a cool looking room that makes my games memorable. It's the special moments that Wil is communicating to us that I love this hobby so much for.
For example: I ran a Shadowrun game at a con a few years back. It had something to do with a vampire and his NPC minion that the adventurers had to save. I had some cool props, a guest star in costume, and some great encounters. What do I really remember from the game? It was at the final battle, and one of the mages, a player who later became a member of my regular gaming group, who risked everything to get a success and be the hero of the game. It was a make or break moment for the party. He rolled over FORTY DICE!.... all he needed was one of them to be a success to defeat the vampire AND his character was still doomed to burn up in the process.... he rolled NOT ONE success! But that is not the memorable part.... what was so memorable was the maniacal glee on his face during the roll, and the laughter that erupted in the hotel room when he proceeded to throw the entire contents of the dice tray down the hallway, and we could hear the dice rattling off of the walls ..... such a golden moment!
I think you get my point. It's not about the maps, prestige classes, random encounter charts or cool NPC's. It's about the laughter, the emotion, and the few moments when geeks can bond together and escape our little troubled lives for just a few hours.
Keep it up Dungeon, and Mr. Wheaton!
Well, if that's all Wil Save is meant to be, then why not have rotating contributors instead of a former t.v. child star with no gaming credits to his name? Frankly, I'd like to hear from gaming designers and other significant faces in the industry. What does Andy Collins do in his games? What about Kuntz? What real-life/D&D cross-over experiences does Monte have to share? There are so many other people out there that I would rather hear from than Wil. Seems like the column is a great chance being squandered on mediocrity.
yawn.
Paul McCarthy: I don't think you understand where I'm coming from at all. If I have a problem with a Dungeon article, I tell it like it is and I have no problems with other people doing the same. However, I don't say things like I'm a better writer than the writer of said article (because I'm probably not), nor do I personally attack the author in question. Truth is a great thing, but love is greater still, and it will endure when truth gives out.
I can respect you saying that you think Wil Wheaton's article has no place in Dungeon. What I find inappropriate for the street, much less a public forum, is you saying that you despise Wil Wheaton (have you even met him?), among other things, and have the hubris to say you're better than him. "Get a life"? That's a personal attack, and just so that we're clear, this guy is writing for all of us. There's no reason to be hostile. If you review everything I've said about Gygax, you'll find that I mention that he's a dinosaur with no writing talent, his attitude can be improved upon, and that I think his views suck.
None of these are personal attacks. I do not say that HE sucks or that I despise HIM. I can disagree with Mr. Gygax and I can find his articles atrocious without being atrocious to him.
monkeybone: Pardon me, mister, but I certainly don't have a burning desire to hear Mr. Gygax's stories and after all these issues, my desire to hear anything he has to say has even decreased, despite myself. He was there at the start, but then so was Dave Arneson, Robert Kuntz and really, a whole lot of other people.
I have a healthy respect for those people who created this game for us, but then again, I also have a great deal of respect for people who created the ballpen and the lead pencil and I don't really need to hear their take on everyday life or "the pencil-user's life", either.
I can respect that you might like feeling like a fly, but I have no such desire. As far as I'm concerned, past is past and a lot of that past that Gary harps on about really has little bearing on what's going on today. I mean, really, what has Melf's loss of magic gear got to do with everyday gaming? It's a common issue, but I don't need to hear about it from him, and to tell you the truth, that article sucked despite the great material he was working on. I have no doubt that Wil Wheaton, being a gamer, has at least as much right to talk about such a common everyday topic and that he could probably make a beter written article to boot.
If you have a bike problem and your peruse a magazine, you will invariably find one Shopgirl who gives you her take on the ins and outs of bicycle management. She's qualified to make the article, but she's nothing special, really. Lots of bike mechanics have equal qualifications or better. Why don't they write the article? The reason is as practical as it is obvious. Many of these people can't write an article worth a damn because they're bike mechanics, not writers.
Sad to say, Gary Gygax has remained a writer mostly for game material because while he has a sound head for game material, he's such a bad writer he's barely able to write something in which he's immensely qualified for. Doctors don't necessarily make good Med teachers. Bike mechanics don't necessarily make good writers and neither do game gurus, apparently. Writing is not something you can perform without hard work and talent, and sadly, while Gary can put in the work, he has absolutely no talent in it, as far as I'm concerned.
You like baseball analogies, apparently. Do the best ballplayers write articles about baseball on a regular basis, even when they retire? Probably, the great majority of them don't. It's the same thing. They're ballplayers, not writers.
Wil Wheaton doesn't need to have designed a game to write his article because his article isn't ABOUT game mechanics. His article is about everyday life as a gamer. We're all qualified to do this. What separates him from the rest of us is that he's actually a decent writer, and the apparent popularity of his blog makes him more qualified to do this than yon Gary over there.
I can understand that you may not like his style. That's cool. Lots of people find regular articles in other magazines intolerable. I can only hope that you can understand that many of us here like the article content as is.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Short and simple statement.
I like 'em, and actually It's the second thing I read (Table of contents is first) Keep the Will Save.
As to the latest one, my wife has started using gaming terms.
Though I tell her, when I miss something "Remember, Wisdom 8, no ranks in spot or search, +10 innate bonus to spot asian women."
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I have said before, and don't mind repeating, that I don't like the article. Because so many other people seemed to be enjoying them, I waited for several issues before sharing my opinion with the editors of Dungeon, and you, my fellow subscribers. For those who support Wil, it seems I am hearing the following arguments.
1) I like Wil.
2) Wil can write.
3) Wil brings emotional appeal to a dry magazine.
To point #1 - So what? Some people like Wil, some people dislike him. That is a poor reason to include him in a gaming magazine. #2 & #3 are good points. The question is, can someone else do it better?
The arguments against Wil seem to be as follows:
1) I don't like Wil.
2) Wil has no recognizable connection to gaming, other than this article.
3) His articles ramble, and have absolutely NOTHING to do with gaming anyway.
It seems to me that of coure #1 is a ridiculous reason for dropping Wil. But #2 and #3 are significant. And the real question is, how was Wil chosen? Is there noone better? I think that most of us who subscribe to the magazine would think it was unfair if he was chosen simply because he used to be a television actor. We would like to see other qualified people spotlighted who are significant because of the game, not because of Star Trek.
I would generally rather see a Joe Gamer than Jack Celebrity talking about a gamer's life. I also regularly purchase Knights of the Dinner Table from my local gaming store. Not only does it have fun comics, it has features that are "warm and fuzzy". It includes tales from the gaming table, which serves the same general function.
I would like to find out how Wil was chosen, and I would like to know for certain that there isn't anyone more qualified ready and willing to produce these articles. And I wouldn't mind if these articles were replaced with something else altogether.
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Alright, having just read the latest issue of Dungeon, I'd have to say that Wil's editorials are starting to grow on me. It's nice fluff and doesn't really detract from the rest of the magazine, so Paizo, you have my permission to keep it in there. (Of course, I'd still like to see Critical Threats and Maps of Mystery in every issue! So, if either are being squeezed out by Wil Save, then my opinion may change.) :D
Hey, Taricus, I haven't posted in over a week. Meaning i really don't care to state my opinion on Wil. So leave me out of it, okay? I disagree with Roxlimn's position almost as much as you.
Unless you meant someone else when you said "Dwarven Tostitos". That would be different.
Hey, how did I get dragged into this? I don't even subscribe to Dungeon, and I've only read one of Wil's articles...
Personally I enjoy Wil's articles. They add a touch of humanity to the magazine. Giving insights into one DM's personal life. I've been playing for nearly 19 years, watching the changes, and not much saying anything about them. Dungeon needs a little depth and personality. Not every square inch of every page need to be number crunching.
Hey guys, great to be back! Hope you had a good Christmas! Things are starting to heat up here huh? Hey, Roxlimn, time to let this go, huh? This is starting to turn into a pie throwing contest. If I offended you in anyway, sorry, time to move on. If you are still bothered by the fact that I can write better(lol) than Wil, then maybe you should get over it huh? In a world of billions of people, you are going to let an unknown face rattle you over his claims on a messageboard? Is your life that small? I really don't care what you think, why should you care what I do? Let it go. And your quotes of spreading love are laughable when you speak in anger over such a silly topic as this. If you love Wil that much then who am I to stand in the way of true love?
When I started this thread, I had no idea that it would be so popular, and even spawn a flame war or two.
It seems to me thatlong time subscribers, like myself despise Wil Save, while some of the new comers to DUNGEON seem to accept it. Perhaps this comes from the difference in views of Dungeon. As a reader of Dungeom since issue 1, I've seen that DUNGEON has been an outstanding DM's resource. Look at issue #1, no Fluff. DUNGEON has been Fluff free for nearly 100+ issues, and now someone feels that it could use some? WHY?
Keep the Fluff for DRAGON or put it on the web page where fan boys can goble it up, but keep it out of DUNGEON.
With that being said, I just got back from vacation and found DUNGEON #119 waiting for me. My dumb cat had also spent the time I was gone yacking all over the carpet...so I have to clean that up. Unless they've started printing Wil Save in that lickable hallucinogenic ink that I sugested, Wil Save will at least have some use in my house.
Maybe I'll read it first...That whole car crash thing and to check on the ink...so that we can discuss its merrits, or lack there of. Until then,
ASEO out
OH yeah, and fire the Wil SAve artist!
Long-time lurker here, thought I'd pop in with my two cents on Wil Save.
I work in magazine publication, and i can tell you for sure that pages like Wil Save are practically the industry standard. Why?
In a journalism class (way) back in college, I learned about a study to determine where a potential reader looks *first* in a magazine that they pick up off the newsstand. The result: The vast majority of readers flip to the last page of the magazine first - before even the table of contents.
Thus, the trend became "make the last page as interesting as possible so as to incite a purchase." Check any magazine. 9 out of 10 times, the last page of a magazine will be an entertaining and quickly-digested 1-page article or item that is slightly different from the magazine's normal content, usually funny or thought-provoking.
The idea is that the last page of a magazine be an epilogue or "closer" to the issue, thus drawing the reader in to see what else of interest is inside..
I think Wil Save serves this purpose wonderfully. It's "one gamer's thoughts," and wether you agree with what Wil says or not, it tends to resonate one way or another.
Personally, I like the idea of having Wil Save back there, as a non-rules article, more about the gamer than the game. I think it makes the book a bit more human, helps one appreciate the hobby for what it is - a pleasant way to spend a few hours with friends.
But again, just my two coppers.
Shidara
Although I am relatively new to Dungeon, I do not like Wil Save either. The first column was not so bad, so I thought that we ought to give Mr. Wheaton a chance. I have read five of the columns, and each one, in my opinion, was worse than the prior. While something different on the last page might increase sales, I should like the article to give me some form of enjoyment, which Wil Save is decreasingly doing.
I was wondering when the "Wesley Sux!" column would rear its ugly head. A two parter no less.
I guess his material is getting thinner and thinner, too bad, I certainly could have used 6 extra Maps of Mystery.
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At some point I'm going to have to stop compaining and recognize that my concern has been considered, even if it has not been addressed.
I'm a little disappointed in the most recent Wil Save (part 1 of 2). Moreso than any of the previous columns, this one contains no substance. I admit I feel bad for Wil. I didn't realize that some pathetic individuals would spend actual money trying to bring him down. In all honesty, I thought gamers were better than that. Specifically trying to tell Wil that he "sucks" is definitely inappropriate behavior. I don't really want to beleive that there are individuals that would go to such lengths to make a minor actor feel that much worse about himself.
I don't want to focus on his acting - I'm not going to complain. I enjoy it, generally, although I generally find child actors annoying. However, he has never been what I would consider a "major actor".
But, the point still remains that it seems there are REAL gamers that could write the article as well or better. And I'd like to see Paizo consider that possibility.
Wil Save is only one weak link in an otherwise strong chain of a excellent publication. If a significant portion of the magazine were crap, then I'd have more reason to cancel my subscription. But since that's not the case, I suppose I can live with Wil Save for the time being; one's gotta have something to winge about.
Still, I think the idea of opening the column up to other contributors is a good idea.
ASEO -
You still generalize too much. I am also a longtime Dungeon reader (yes, from issue 1) and though I try to support my friendly local gaming store rather than subscribe, I still read the magazine. Your objections to Wil Save seem to center on the fact that you would prefer more adventures or more maps. That's a valid feeling. For some of us, even those who have subscribed for a long time, it's nice to have something other than adventures in the magazine. I like the gaming content, but if that was all I wanted, I'd buy a gaming supplement, not a gaming magazine. The fluff is good too. It helps me not take my gaming too seriously. That's very important, because in gaming it is really easy to take it way too seriously.
As for whether they could have chosen someone other than Wil Wheaton... sure they could have. Maybe if I'd thought of it, as a gamer who has been playing for 25 years, I might have submitted the idea to Dungeon instead of querying them on my latest adventure idea. I didn't, and they filled the niche with Wil. I'm fine with that. I don't care that he was a child actor, what I care about is that he's talking about issues that relate to being a long time gamer, entering middle age, and trying to juggle what is often considered a teenagers hobby with that life. I can relate to that, and because I can, I like to read Wil Save.
I don't object, ASEO, to your dislike of the column... there are plenty of adventures, NPCs, and other features that I don't like in Dungeon either. But magazines are written to have broad appeal to a target audience of many, not of one. The magazine has to speak to both you and me, and several thousand others to be successful. Wil Save speaks to me, and I enjoy it. People like me are why the column is there. I hope the editors hear both sides of the argument, and I hope there are enough people like me that the column remains.
Koldoon - AMEN! You're spot on, IMO. I believe Will Save speaks to many people, and though it may not be exactly what everyone wants, it's variety for our hobby. That's a good thing.
I fail to understand why there are so many vociferous, though well expressed, objections to the column. (I also thought my last post would generate some comment, so what do I know?) We are a mature populace - DM's - and I would think that taking a few moments to look into the emotional side of the hobby, or into the family/life side of it would be appreciated. It is by this reader, and that is why I have just subscribed.
By the way, Koldoon, I have subscribed THROUGH my local store (Gator Games in San Mateo, CA). Basically, they order one additional copy than their normal supply, hold it for me, and give me a pre-order discount to boot! A great program, and you may want to suggest it to your local retailer. Good for you for supporting local businesses!
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This message brought to you by the SAVE WILL SAVE! committee.
IMO, the latest installment of Wil Save perfectly exemplifies why it was a bad idea from the start; the majority of the article is devoted to Wil's anxiety over being a child star and how he began to feel alienated when many of his viewers rejected his t.v. personality. The article is only incidentally about gaming, but as usual Wil felt the overlap was sufficient for him to roll out his life story once again.
I'm starting to wonder how many times we will be subjected to the Star Trek sub-plot in these articles. I guess all roads (and future coloumns) do lead back to the decisions Wil made as a teenager.
Koldoon - You said that he could relate to this column because, like Wil, you too are a middle-aged gamer. Frankly, I feel that has nothing to do with Wil's most recent article. Were you a former child star ostracized when your popularity soured? I seriously doubt it. Did you ever feel that you couldn't attend gaming conferences because of public dislike for your career choices? Again, I doubt it.
So unless I get some acting credits under my belt soon (and maybe a millionaire gambling buddy to boot), I seriously doubt I will be able relate to this article as a middle-aged gamer.
Koldoon - You said that he could relate to this column because, like Wil, you too are a middle-aged gamer. Frankly, I feel that has nothing to do with Wil's most recent article. Were you a former child star ostracized when your popularity soured? I seriously doubt it. Did you ever feel that you couldn't attend gaming conferences because of public dislike for your career choices? Again, I doubt it....
monkeybone - I haven't read it yet... I get my copy at my friendly local gaming store, as I noted, and that issue hasn't officially hit the shelves yet, so I haven't seen it. That being said, it is naive to assume that I will relate to everything Wil may say in every article. A large part of Wil's formative experience was his time in Star Trek. Quite frankly, if I look back at my own life, a whole lot is reduced to choices I made as a teenager too.
While there was a lot of public dislike (as well as adolescent adoration) of Wesley Crusher, most people I know (including myself) have been pleasantly surprised getting to hear Wil Wheaton speak. He does even better in his writing than he does in person. I am going to give him a chance, and let him find his voice in the article before I decide it's not worth reading. So far, he has impressed me more than not.
Any literature relates to people who are willing to relate to it. Sometimes you just can't relate to something... I get that - heck, I majored in Russian and East European Studies, and I can't stand reading Tolstoy. I can't relate to it at all. Perhaps the brooding author in Dostoevsky relates to me more than the Count. Wil Wheaton may have been a child actor, but some part of his experience was similar enough (even in some metaphoric sense) to my own for me to relate. If you cannot, too bad. I sympathize. But just as I could take a look at Dostoevsky's works instead (or better yet Gogol) you can turn to a different page and read Christopher West or Monte Cook. Wil Wheaton isn't writing the whole magazine, just one page. Let those of us who enjoy it have it.