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we're playing a game right now, and the PCs are under water. the underwater on spells reads...
Spellcasting Underwater: Casting spells while submerged can be difficult for those who cannot breathe underwater. A creature that cannot breathe water must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell underwater (this is in addition to the caster level check to successfully cast a fire spell underwater). Creatures that can breathe water are unaffected and can cast spells normally. Some spells might function differently underwater, subject to GM discretion.
Does this mean that you can cast spells with verbal components underwater with a simple and easy concentration check without needing to be able to breathe? I was under the impression you couldnt cast verbal component spells without being able to speak/breathe. Could someone clarify this for me? The sooner the better.
My take is that if you cannot speak, you cannot cast, period (if it has verbal components).
I don't recall any specific rules requiring being able to breathe to cast verbal spells. It just counts as an action towards your suffocation countdown.
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I don't recall any specific rules requiring being able to breathe to cast verbal spells. It just counts as an action towards your suffocation countdown.
the SRD says this...
To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell.
It says you must be able to speak. Can one SPEAK underwater?
That would be your call, they can try to make sounds..but is it speaking? I myself would say no, but as a GM you are gonna have to make the call on that one.
You can speak underwater, you may not be understood. I don't think being understood is the point of verbal components anyway.
I don't recall any specific rules requiring being able to breathe to cast verbal spells. It just counts as an action towards your suffocation countdown.
the SRD says this...
To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell.
It says you must be able to speak. Can one SPEAK underwater?
Yup, you can speak underwater. Some animals do (dolphins and whales, for example). Have you ever tried to speak while in the pool? You can actually hear someone speak (albeit not very well). My cousin and I used to do this in the pool when we were kids. Sounds waves can still travel, all they need is a medium to travel through (which is why they don't travel through space).
If you players can somehow breathe underwater (via some sort of magic), then they can definitely cast.
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Alright.. well what if they cannot breathe underwater? can they cast without being able to breathe?
and yeah you can speak underwater. but being deaf gives you 20% spell failure, because you might mis-speak a word because you cannot hear them correctly. but you're saying that you can speak the words just fine under water, without a problem?
I think this is adequately covered by the rules for drowning and the rules for casting underwater.
Yes, you speak underwater. But since you are using a standard action you burn a round of your available time underwater.
Casting underwater doesn't mean you are deaf so the 20% penalty would not seem to apply. You can still hear yourself underwater.
Casting it properly underwater is where the concentration check comes in. Seems reasonable to me.
It is worth noting that PF is a generalization and as such there will be inconsistencies with real world physics and biology. I try not to think about it too hard lest my brain explode from all the house rules I would have to create. :)
- Gauss
Alright.. well what if they cannot breathe underwater? can they cast without being able to breathe?
and yeah you can speak underwater. but being deaf gives you 20% spell failure, because you might mis-speak a word because you cannot hear them correctly. but you're saying that you can speak the words just fine under water, without a problem?
While it isn't RAW, I think the 20% spell is an elegant solution. IRL speaking underwater is definately possible, in my experience however correct pronunciation is quite difficult.
Thus the risk of misspeaking seem fitting, without enterily breaking the balls of the spellcaster who didn't plan to be below water.
Alright.. well what if they cannot breathe underwater? can they cast without being able to breathe?
and yeah you can speak underwater. but being deaf gives you 20% spell failure, because you might mis-speak a word because you cannot hear them correctly. but you're saying that you can speak the words just fine under water, without a problem?
Being deaf means you can't hear. You can still hear underwater, so a 20% penalty would be too much.
I'm not really sure why you're confused on the issue, when the rules are quoted explicitly in your original post:
A creature that cannot breathe water must make a concentration check (DC 15 + spell level) to cast a spell underwater (this is in addition to the caster level check to successfully cast a fire spell underwater). Creatures that can breathe water are unaffected and can cast spells normally.
If they can breath, spell casting is completely unaffected. If they cannot breath underwater, they need to make a concentration check to cast. What components are used isn't even taken into consideration.
Once the spell is cast, there might be issues, such as a fire spell. But the actual casting of the spell is right there in the rules you quoted.
IF you wanted to enact some sort of penalty (above and beyond the penalty already given - the concentration check), it would have to be less than being deaf. Although doing this really seems like you're just trying to screw your players over. "You mean I have to make a concentration check to even see if I can cast (rules as written), AND THEN I have to make a percent check to see if it works (house rule)? And on top of all that, it takes away from the time I'm underwater before drowning starts (rules as written)?!"