Reactions before first turn

The Core Rule book says: "The GM determines whether you can use reactions before your first turn begins, depending on the situation in which the encounter happens."

But I can´t find any guidelines to make this decision. Is it a total GM Fiat, case by case? Or are there abilities and things that allow you to have or not have reactions before your first turn?

Can someone point me to some rule?

Thanks in advance

The Core Rule book says: "The GM determines whether you can use reactions before your first turn begins, depending on the situation in which the encounter happens."

But I can´t find any guidelines to make this decision. Is it a total GM Fiat, case by case? Or are there abilities and things that allow you to have or not have reactions before your first turn?

Can someone point me to some rule?

Thanks in advance

There are various monsters and traps which have reactions that occur before initiative is rolled. So those are explicit. I don't think players have any such abilities.

One commonly used rule of thumb is "would the character have been aware of the trigger?" Dodging a attack from someone who successfully rolled stealth for initiative who you are flatfooted against? Probably not gonna work.

Total GM fiat.

I tend to go with yes, you get your reaction if you are in a dangerous location and are aware that some threat might come at you. However, if you are wandering about town doing some shopping, sat in the tavern or doing some similar innocuous sort of activity then you dont.

At the end of the day it is entirely GM dependent, there are no guidelines that I am aware of.

Like Morgan and Andrew: I only forbid reactions during the first turn if the characters were absolutely not aware that combat could occur or that this enemy even exist. Otherwise, you can use your reactions as usual.

No general guidelines, considerations like what Captain Morgan or andreww seems good though.

There are various monsters and traps which have reactions that occur before initiative is rolled. So those are explicit. I don't think players have any such abilities.

There are a few feats that allow for a free action with the trigger "You're about to roll initiative". A quick search turned up these, might be more.

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1531

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1521

https://2e.aonprd.com/Feats.aspx?ID=1497

I've encountered many players and GMs online who erroneously believe there's a default rule of "no reactions before your turn", so I always ask a GM I've never played with before what their ruling is, and I lead my question with, "The Core Rulebook tells us it's up to the GM to...", then go from there.

I think it's important to point out that there's no default rule about being flatfooted before one's first turn (which there was in PF1).
So people begin at their full capacity unless there's an exceptional reason (as noted above).
Hopefully at your table it's not GM fiat (arbitrary choice), but rather GM interpretation/adjudication only taking away an ability your PC has for unusual circumstances (reasoned choice).

With so many creatures using Stealth saying "Yes" as the default might have been misleading; those exceptions are pretty common, especially in a thieves' guild where they also will make you flatfooted if they're Rogues.

I think it's important to point out that there's no default rule about being flatfooted before one's first turn (which there was in PF1).

No-one is talking about being flat footed, it is clear that you are not flat footed before you have acted barring something like surprise attacks. Whether you have your reaction or not is an entirely different question as you normally only gain reactions in encounter mode at the start of your turn.

it is clear that you are not flat footed before you have acted barring something like surprise attacks. Whether you have your reaction or not is an entirely different question as you normally only gain reactions in encounter mode at the start of your turn.

For some GMs, it is NOT clear. Especially for GMs who have spent years running PF1

If a GM erroneously believes that people are flat-footed before their turn, then they are likely to make a different ruling than a GM who believes that people aren't flat-footed.

It is quite relevant to bring that up with a GM when discussing how they make decisions about characters having a reaction before their first turn.

Since being flat-footed was also what prevented attacks of opportunity and immediate actions in 1st edition, it is an equivalent rule. And we know that assuming things from 1E is an easy way to make mistakes in 2E.

So while the 1E "flat-footed before your 1st turn" rule is not relevant to how 2E works, it can be relevant to a list of the rough spots people have in making the system transition. People made the same kind of faulty assumption that things were the same as 1E when going to Starfinder, where you can't take reactions before you act in combat, but aren't flat-footed and easier to hit.

Castilliano wrote:

I think it's important to point out that there's no default rule about being flatfooted before one's first turn (which there was in PF1).

No-one is talking about being flat footed, it is clear that you are not flat footed before you have acted barring something like surprise attacks. Whether you have your reaction or not is an entirely different question as you normally only gain reactions in encounter mode at the start of your turn.

I was using flatfooted as an example of the carryover of PF1 thinking. There being flatfooted prevented somebody w/o Combat Reflexes from getting an AoO before acting. That's the closest approximation to a Reaction in PF1, and I've seen this in the forums used as reasoning to deny Reactions in PF2 (even if not in this thread).

While there is a phrasing of gaining Reactions at the beginning of one's turn, I see it more as refreshing/regaining one's Reaction(s). I don't see why somebody would start combat w/ their Reaction(s) pre-spent (not that I would object to such a rule, it's just there is no such rule). Which is to say, without a rule taking away one's Reactions or saying they haven't been activated yet, the default would be that creature's function normally, which includes having a Reaction to use.
If creatures did not have a Reaction to use then many of the Reactions that occur at or before rolling initiative would need to give them one first. There's no such language, implying they (and everybody else) do have a Reaction to use on those Reactions.

ETA: Double ninjaed. :)

I think it's important to point out that there's no default rule about being flatfooted before one's first turn (which there was in PF1).

So people begin at their full capacity unless there's an exceptional reason (as noted above).

Not really. The rules are pretty clear on you gaining your reaction only at the start of your first turn.

But since the rules ALSO allow for a GM to allow reactions before that, we have this discussion thread :)

The Core Rule book says: "The GM determines whether you can use reactions before your first turn begins, depending on the situation in which the encounter happens."

But I can´t find any guidelines to make this decision.

I don't think there are any.

I have allowed heroes to start "at the ready" when they're in a dungeon or other dangerous environment, and they're about to bust open a door.

In this case, having heroes say they have their shield up (so they can spend their reaction on shield block) or are ready with their halberd (so they can spend their reaction on attack of opportunity) seems fair.

But in order to not dilute the advantage of rolling a high initiative in a ruleset where surprise is already severely nerfed, I try to resist a wider generosity.

That is, unless everybody stands at the ready, highly focused on something with just a very short duration (a couple of combat rounds at the most), no, I won't allow it.

Let's take an example where I feel PF2 must be handled differently than many other role-playing games:

Say you stand around conversing with the beautiful Duchess you suspect is a vampire or other monster. One of the heroes suddenly bring out his sword and cleave her in half!

Not so fast! There are no surprise rounds in PF2, and winning initiative should always be rewarded.

So I'm interpreting the rules this way:

If the Duchess wins initiative, that means she can intuit your devious intention the split second before you backstab her. She goes first, and you're caught off-guard, even though you were ready to strike.

(You might use Deception for initiative, and I might give the Duchess an initiative penalty if she's feeling over-confident or arrogant, but that's beside the issue)

The point is that despite you being literally ultra-focused, you STILL don't get to use your reaction when she acts before you.

The same if the monsters behind that door I spoke of earlier are well aware you're coming their way. It's entirely possible for the door to be busted open, the first combat round begins, and the monster wins initiative and comes barging out and that fighter DOES NOT get to use his halberd since he was completely not expecting the monsters to be that proactive.

It's when I judge the monsters to react normally I would let him skewer a charging monster.

So the answer is: it depends.

Anyway, that's how I make heads or tails of this aspect of the rules, where I feel the devs have completely failed to explain how they intended the rules to be used.

Our GM is allowing 'before your first turn' reactions according to the selected exploration activity. Usually those who are on active lookout duty (aka Scout) can react normally including AoO, and if anyone is wary enough to use Defend they can at least use Shield Block in addition to gaining the AC benefit. This may be house rule territory but we found it fits the narrative of the respective activity.

I generally allow PCs first turn reactions for things like the following:

Someone is using the Defend activity

Both sides are having a heated discussion and it devolves into combat without the use of Stealth or Deception

The PCs are ambushing an enemy and the enemies just happened to roll better initiatives.

The reaction is some sort of automaticish ability, like a Sacred Tattoo, or the Tengu's Eat Fortune.

Something matches your Contingency spell trigger.

However, I would NOT allow on the following:

The PCs get ambushed

A social encounter devolves to combat by using Stealth or Deception.

If a single PC decides to start combat while all the others are surprised by their actions.

The rules are pretty clear on you gaining your reaction only at the start of your first turn.

This is not true.

The correct answer is, "It's up to the GM".

You "regain" your reactions at the start of each turn, which some people erroneously point to as meaning you don't have a reaction until your first turn comes around.

The two are not the same.

Zapp wrote:

The rules are pretty clear on you gaining your reaction only at the start of your first turn.

This is not true.

The correct answer is, "It's up to the GM".

You "regain" your reactions at the start of each turn, which some people erroneously point to as meaning you don't have a reaction until your first turn comes around.

The two are not the same.

You conveniently left out the very next sentence there.

The rules say:

The GM determines whether you
can use reactions before your first turn begins, depending
on the situation in which the encounter happens.
Once your first turn begins, you gain your actions and
reaction.

So, if the GM doesn't give you your reaction before your first turn, you have none.

Since you haven't had any turn, there's no time when you could have "regained" it.

Again, unless the GM gives it to you.

There is a difference between:

a) The rules don't say whether you do or do not gain a particular feature, except "it's up to the GM".
b) The rules say you don't gain a particular feature, except "it's up to the GM".

This is clearly an instance of b) not a)

If the GM doesn't have a strong opinion, he should default to "no reaction". It's not two equal choices.

Getting a reaction is a gift. Not getting it isn't stingy from the GM. You can't demand a reaction before your turn, you can only be grateful when the GM gives it to you.

Nefreet wrote:

Zapp wrote:

The rules are pretty clear on you gaining your reaction only at the start of your first turn.

This is not true.

The correct answer is, "It's up to the GM".

You "regain" your reactions at the start of each turn, which some people erroneously point to as meaning you don't have a reaction until your first turn comes around.

The two are not the same.

You conveniently left out the very next sentence there.

I don't know where you learned English writing and paragraph structure, but sentence placement matters. While that sentence is "the very next", it's also the opening sentence of a completely separate and unrelated paragraph, and the sentences that follow that support it.

You conveniently left out the very next sentence there.

The rules say:

The GM determines whether you can use reactions before your first turn begins, depending on the situation in which the encounter happens.
Once your first turn begins, you gain your actions and reaction.

So, if the GM doesn't give you your reaction before your first turn, you have none.

Yeaaaah, that's not how that works. The second statement in no way says that the default is you don't gain reactions until the start of your first turn. It's additional rules that supplement the previous rule and in no way contradict it.

The rule is that the GM determines. Not that the GM may override the default and give you one.
Then, separately and in another paragraph, it mentions that on your first turn you gain your actions and reaction. This means that, regardless of what the GM determined previously, you automatically gain your reaction at the start of your first turn rather than some other trigger, such as the end of the first round.
Now, personally I default to my players not getting a reaction before the start of their first turn unless they were expecting combat, but RAW is very clearly "GM decides", not "GM can choose to give you one, but otherwise you don't."
Either way the ultimate choice ends with the GM, though, so it's not like it really makes a difference mechanically.

There is a difference between:

a) The rules don't say whether you do or do not gain a particular feature, except "it's up to the GM".
b) The rules say you don't gain a particular feature, except "it's up to the GM".

Okay, but counter point: it doesn't say "you don't gain your reaction until the start of your first turn." It says "Once your first turn begins, you gain your actions and reaction." Those are very different statements, and the latter in no way rules out the possibility of you already having your reaction at that point.