Black Blade Arcane pool

The way I read it, the weapon's arcane pool can be used normally to enhance the weapon. Who thinks I'm wrong?

The way I read it, the weapon's arcane pool can be used normally to enhance the weapon. Who thinks I'm wrong?

My first instinct was to say no, but looking more closely the ability to enhance your weapon falls under the Arcane Pool feature, so it would be good to get clarification on whether the Blade gets Arcane Pool (the feature) or an arcane pool (just the points to be used for it's abilities like Black Blade Strike).

The way I read it, the weapon's arcane pool can be used normally to enhance the weapon. Who thinks I'm wrong?

I'll look closer when I am home and have UM at my disposal. To be clear, are you talking about the enhancements such as applying enhancement bonuses including applying effects like keen, flaming etc? As I recall that's listed in the magus class features section and under the "Black Blade basics" it outlined everything that can be done using the blade's arcane pool. I don't believe the blade inherits the Magus arcane pool class feature. It has its own set of capabilities and its own advancement rate.

As I read it the black blade arcane pool points are to be used for its abilities like adding to the dmg roll or changing from physical dmg to energy damage.

You do get the option of converting 2 black blade points into 1 personal arcane pool point.

considering the archtype reduces your own pool from 1/2 level +int to 1/3 level +int and the blackblade will have more points in its pool than the difference between 1/2 and 1/3 I think you would need to convert 2 -> 1 to fuel your arcane pool and use the echanting ability.

Extra Arcane Pool. I plan on never needing to use that arcana siphoning ability. I, for one, like unbreakable, unsunderable swords of doom!

And I only need take the feat three times to get back to 1/2 magus lvl + int in arcane pool points (once every 6 levels or so.) How many bonus feats does a Magus get? 3? Awesome! (the thought here being: we take Extra Arcane Pool as our regular feats and use the bonus feats to pick up legal options we would've taken anyway, but that our EAP feats took the slots of) They're even spaced almost accurately.

Not sure about the initial question. Tricksy rules are tricksy and all that.

Xum wrote:

The way I read it, the weapon's arcane pool can be used normally to enhance the weapon. Who thinks I'm wrong?

I'll look closer when I am home and have UM at my disposal. To be clear, are you talking about the enhancements such as applying enhancement bonuses including applying effects like keen, flaming etc? As I recall that's listed in the magus class features section and under the "Black Blade basics" it outlined everything that can be done using the blade's arcane pool. I don't believe the blade inherits the Magus arcane pool class feature. It has its own set of capabilities and its own advancement rate.

Yes, that's what I'm talking about. The arcane pool ability is just that, the points AND the enhancement, so, if you have arcane points, you can enhance weapons, it's not a separated ability.

I believe the two pools are separate from each-other, as stated on page 47, like so, "A black blade has an arcane pool with a number of points equal to [numbers removed to encourage lurkers to buy the actual book] + its Intelligence bonus." and that "The bladebound Magus’ arcane pool has a number of points equal to [numbers removed to encourage lurkers to buy the actual book] plus his Intelligence bonus."

On page 9, under the description of the Magus' arcane pool it says the following,(emphasis mine) "At 1st level, a Magus can expend [see above inserts] from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a[n] enhancement bonus for 1 minute". Suggesting that the Magus can only access points from his own pool for the enhancement.

I further believe this ideal to be based off the following lines, on page 48. "Black Blade Strike (Sp): As a free action, the Magus can
spend a point from the black blade’s arcane pool to grant the black blade a [see above] bonus on damage rolls for 1 minute." and "Energy Attunement (Su): as a free action, a Magus can spend a point of his black blade’s arcane pool to have it deal one of the following types of damage instead of weapon damage: [elements deleted for the same reason as previously mentioned]." Both of which are similar, but not quite the same, as abilities and enhancements usually gleaned from the Magus' arcane pool. If the Magus was capable of utilizing the Black Blade's pool for that purpose, then why not just state as much flat out?

Finally, as the Magus' description I quoted in the second paragraph only allows him to use His arcane pool for that, I believe the two pools are intended to be separate. Kind of part of the trade-off on getting an intelligent item that also scales. [In my personal opinion, the Black-Blade Magus is bad-a$$ enough as-is, without giving him that little extra oomph of using the Blade's pool for the most basic parts of playing a Magus.)

(edited for the purpose of clarity, my first post wasn't quite as organized)

I believe the two pools are separate from each-other, as stated on page 47, like so, "A black blade has an arcane pool with a number of points equal to [numbers removed to encourage lurkers to buy the actual book] + its Intelligence bonus." and that "The bladebound Magus’ arcane pool has a number of points equal to [numbers removed to encourage lurkers to buy the actual book] plus his Intelligence bonus."

On page 9, under the description of the Magus' arcane pool it says the following,(emphasis mine) "At 1st level, a Magus can expend [see above inserts] from his arcane pool as a swift action to grant any weapon he is holding a[n] enhancement bonus for 1 minute". Suggesting that the Magus can only access points from his own pool for the enhancement.

I further believe this ideal to be based off the following lines, on page 48. "Black Blade Strike (Sp): As a free action, the Magus can
spend a point from the black blade’s arcane pool to grant the black blade a [see above] bonus on damage rolls for 1 minute." and "Energy Attunement (Su): as a free action, a Magus can spend a point of his black blade’s arcane pool to have it deal one of the following types of damage instead of weapon damage: [elements deleted for the same reason as previously mentioned]." Both of which are similar, but not quite the same, as abilities and enhancements usually gleaned from the Magus' arcane pool. If the Magus was capable of utilizing the Black Blade's pool for that purpose, then why not just state as much flat out?

Finally, as the Magus' description I quoted in the second paragraph only allows him to use His arcane pool for that, I believe the two pools are intended to be separate. Kind of part of the trade-off on getting an intelligent item that also scales. [In my personal opinion, the Black-Blade Magus is bad-a$$ enough as-is, without giving him that little extra oomph of using the Blade's pool for the most basic parts of playing a Magus.)

(edited for the purpose of clarity, my first post wasn't...

I agree with this as well. In reading through the Magus section and then the Bladebound archetype section, there are specific powers where it clearly states you use powers from the black blade's arcane pool. All of those abilities are listed under the Black Blade basics section of the Bladebound archetype.

Good posts, but it still ain't clear. Arcane pool states the benefits, so anything that has arcane points can use enhancement by my reading. But yours is pretty good too. It's not something anyone would use so often anyway, since the black blade's pool is very, very low.
Well, I would allow it, but it's something that should be clearer to be sure.

Good posts, but it still ain't clear. Arcane pool states the benefits, so anything that has arcane points can use enhancement by my reading. But yours is pretty good too. It's not something anyone would use so often anyway, since the black blade's pool is very, very low.

Well, I would allow it, but it's something that should be clearer to be sure.

It states how the pool is used by each individual. And do-not forget, the Black-blade is intelligent, it IS another separate individual. Just because it shares the same name does not mean it functions exactly the same for both.

An example of this is Sneak Attack, 1D6 for a rogue, 1D4 for the Alchemist Archetype. When it can be used (how many time per day in the form of spell-like abilities like the Arcane Pool), what targets it can affect, (the Magus' weapon in the Arcane Pool), and the progression (aka damage enhancement, elemental options, etc.) are more or less the same, or slightly tweaked, but there are notable differences. As such, only allow the use of each pool as described.

In this case, for any Magus abilities, only the Magus' pool. (Unless using the Black Blade ability to have its points drained to the Magus, or any other such ability).

And the Blade's pool purely for abilities under the Blade section, (unless, obviously, an ability specifically says otherwise).

First off, the visectionist gives you d6 sneak attacks, no changes there, and second, even if it did, it would be explicitly called out.

As for the issue, I'm uncertain.

Xum wrote:

The way I read it, the weapon's arcane pool can be used normally to enhance the weapon. Who thinks I'm wrong?

My first instinct was to say no, but looking more closely the ability to enhance your weapon falls under the Arcane Pool feature, so it would be good to get clarification on whether the Blade gets Arcane Pool (the feature) or an arcane pool (just the points to be used for it's abilities like Black Blade Strike).

The Blade's arcane pool is only for use for the blade's particular abilities. It's not a pretty deep pool so you really don't want to use it for abilities you can fuel yourself. If you're really desperate you can suck out your blade's arcane points at a 50 percent loss.

Froze_man wrote:

Xum wrote:

The way I read it, the weapon's arcane pool can be used normally to enhance the weapon. Who thinks I'm wrong?

My first instinct was to say no, but looking more closely the ability to enhance your weapon falls under the Arcane Pool feature, so it would be good to get clarification on whether the Blade gets Arcane Pool (the feature) or an arcane pool (just the points to be used for it's abilities like Black Blade Strike).

The Blade's arcane pool is only for use for the blade's particular abilities. It's not a pretty deep pool so you really don't want to use it for abilities you can fuel yourself. If you're really desperate you can suck out your blade's arcane points at a 50 percent loss.

What u said is not true, I understand why you would think that. But it's not clear AT ALL. You can assume that, but it doesn't make it so.

When they say you gain Sneak attack, it's the same as rogue, Rage, it's the same as Barbarian, this is an ability like any other, why should it follow different rules?

I'm not sure I see the issue here.

At 1st level you get your arcane pool , cantrip, and spell combat. 2nd you get spell strike. At 3rd as Bladebound kicks. You don't actually have to decide to go with archetype till this point. That's in rules of the APG on archetypes. At 3rd you decide bladebound. You lose your Magus Arcana for 3rd level and you arcane pool become 1/3 per level (minimum 1). No real change just you next pool point comes at 6th instead of 4th. In exchange you get a blade which has it's own pool called the Black Blade Arcana. That's the swords pool not yours. You can use the swords pool to activate effects the sword is capable of. You can use your arcane pool for the arcane stuff you have available. Seems pretty straight forward to me.

By the way the bonus you get from the Black Blade Strike are untyped. So you can apply an enhancement bonus to the Black Blade and activate the black blade strike together in the same round. It's a swift action and an Arcane pool point to add an enhancement for 1 minute. It's a free action to spend one of the Black Blade's arcane pool to get Black Blade Strike for 1 minute. So one free action, one swift and make a full attack casting a spell and connecting with the blade. Pretty nice if you ask me.

I don't really see the confusion, in reading the abilities and how things are laid out, magus has its own arcane pool and abilities. The black blade has its own pool and abilities. The abilities are mutually exclusive to the pool they're associated with..

What u said is not true, I understand why you would think that. But it's not clear AT ALL. You can assume that, but it doesn't make it so.

When they say you gain Sneak attack, it's the same as rogue, Rage, it's the same as Barbarian, this is an ability like any other, why should it follow different rules?

When you get the same ability, it's specifically called out.

Xum wrote:

What u said is not true, I understand why you would think that. But it's not clear AT ALL. You can assume that, but it doesn't make it so.

When they say you gain Sneak attack, it's the same as rogue, Rage, it's the same as Barbarian, this is an ability like any other, why should it follow different rules?

When you get the same ability, it's specifically called out.

By that reasoning, a barbarian and a monk would have the same ability because both are called 'fast movement'.
Also, the magus ability would be pretty useless for the black blade anyway. How is a blade supposed to hold a weapon?

By that logic, the arcane pool also has a truly finite pool of points.

If we're not referencing the Magus ability at all, then there is no refill condition on the Black Blade's points as far as I can see. As soon as you use one it is gone forever.

Like a lot of stuff in this book it needs errata. If the blade entry had the replenishment wording from arcane pool, then I think you could quite reasonably contend that you could hand the black blade rules to any other class and everything within works as a self contained whole except for the callouts to the Magus' arcane pool. Arcane pool in black blade would not need to reference the magus version because the archetype tells you everything you need to know about the arcane pool in the abilities that follow it.

As it is though, the only way to have the blade refill its pool is if you assume it works exactly the same as the magus one - so I can see why the OP is saying it is ambiguous.

LazarX wrote:

Froze_man wrote:

Xum wrote:

The way I read it, the weapon's arcane pool can be used normally to enhance the weapon. Who thinks I'm wrong?

My first instinct was to say no, but looking more closely the ability to enhance your weapon falls under the Arcane Pool feature, so it would be good to get clarification on whether the Blade gets Arcane Pool (the feature) or an arcane pool (just the points to be used for it's abilities like Black Blade Strike).

The Blade's arcane pool is only for use for the blade's particular abilities. It's not a pretty deep pool so you really don't want to use it for abilities you can fuel yourself. If you're really desperate you can suck out your blade's arcane points at a 50 percent loss.

What u said is not true, I understand why you would think that. But it's not clear AT ALL. You can assume that, but it doesn't make it so.

When they say you gain Sneak attack, it's the same as rogue, Rage, it's the same as Barbarian, this is an ability like any other, why should it follow different rules?

It is clear if you get your head around the intelligent item rules. for all intensive purposes and intelligent item is a monstrous creature more importantly its treated as a separate character. More like a familiar in this case. Has its own stats, saves and abilities

Just like any other familiar it does NOT share its masters class abilities unless stated. For example even though a familiar can gain some spells when its advanced enough does not mean it can then have access to its master entire spell list.

If the pools are interchangeable then they would have written it that way, You and your Blade share an arcane pool etc. If they are written separate they are meant to be separate.

Just because it dosen't say you can't doesn't mean you can.

Show me where it says the black blade is NOT allowed to memorise spells from the Magus spell list ? It has an INT score so by your logic because its not spelled out that you can't, means that you can.

The Magus and black blade abilities are spelled out pretty clearly the fact that they didn't insert a small line like "black blade can use its arcane pool to use the magus's ability X" means it was not intended that way.

Your welcome to argue all you like about how its unclear and doesn't say you can't. I put it to you show me where it says you can, line and pg.

Xum wrote:

LazarX wrote:

Froze_man wrote:

Xum wrote:

The way I read it, the weapon's arcane pool can be used normally to enhance the weapon. Who thinks I'm wrong?

My first instinct was to say no, but looking more closely the ability to enhance your weapon falls under the Arcane Pool feature, so it would be good to get clarification on whether the Blade gets Arcane Pool (the feature) or an arcane pool (just the points to be used for it's abilities like Black Blade Strike).

The Blade's arcane pool is only for use for the blade's particular abilities. It's not a pretty deep pool so you really don't want to use it for abilities you can fuel yourself. If you're really desperate you can suck out your blade's arcane points at a 50 percent loss.

What u said is not true, I understand why you would think that. But it's not clear AT ALL. You can assume that, but it doesn't make it so.

When they say you gain Sneak attack, it's the same as rogue, Rage, it's the same as Barbarian, this is an ability like any other, why should it follow different rules?

It is clear if you get your head around the intelligent item rules. for all intensive purposes and intelligent item is a monstrous creature more importantly its treated as a separate character. More like a familiar in this case. Has its own stats, saves and abilities

Just like any other familiar it does NOT share its masters class abilities unless stated. For example even though a familiar can gain some spells when its advanced enough does not mean it can then have access to its master entire spell list.

If the pools are interchangeable then they would have written it that way, You and your Blade share an arcane pool etc. If they are written separate they are meant to be separate.

Just because it dosen't say you can't doesn't mean you can.

Show me where it says the black blade is NOT allowed to memorise spells from the Magus spell list ? It has an INT score so by your logic because its not...

I think you are missing the original poster's point. He's contending the Blade gets the Arcane Pool class feature. It's not that they share a pool, it's that it has it's own pool, just like the magus does - the key point being "just like the magus does". If it gets its own Arcane pool class feature with the only difference being the number of points it gets, then it also gets all the other things listed under Arcane Pool - like enhancing weapons and such.

Whether the blade could consider it self a weapon it is holding is a whole other argument...

Jadeite wrote:

Xum wrote:

What u said is not true, I understand why you would think that. But it's not clear AT ALL. You can assume that, but it doesn't make it so.

When they say you gain Sneak attack, it's the same as rogue, Rage, it's the same as Barbarian, this is an ability like any other, why should it follow different rules?

When you get the same ability, it's specifically called out.

By that reasoning, a barbarian and a monk would have the same ability because both are called 'fast movement'.
Also, the magus ability would be pretty useless for the black blade anyway. How is a blade supposed to hold a weapon?

By that logic, the arcane pool also has a truly finite pool of points.

If we're not referencing the Magus ability at all, then there is no refill condition on the Black Blade's points as far as I can see. As soon as you use one it is gone forever.

Like a lot of stuff in this book it needs errata. If the blade entry had the replenishment wording from arcane pool, then I think you could quite reasonably contend that you could hand the black blade rules to any other class and everything within works as a self contained whole except for the callouts to the Magus' arcane pool. Arcane pool in black blade would not need to reference the magus version because the archetype tells you everything you need to know about the arcane pool in the abilities that follow it.

As it is though, the only way to have the blade refill its pool is if you assume it works exactly the same as the magus one - so I can see why the OP is saying it is ambiguous.

I think it's a fairly reasonable assumption that the refill for the blade occurs when its wielder's pool also refills BUT I'll concede one could make an argument or two against that assumption. It never hurts to have clarification.

While I can see the argument for it as written it looks as if the intent is very clear that they are separate. Also if you could use them for both powers what would be the point of draining points from the sword in the first place.

I think it's a fairly reasonable assumption that the refill for the blade occurs when its wielder's pool also refills BUT I'll concede one could make an argument or two against that assumption. It never hurts to have clarification.

Problem with that is it plays into the original argument - that it is not a standalone ability and that it's more like Sneak Attack where you reference the primary class feature as it is presented elsewhere.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think that was intended and if you errata in a recharge, I completely disagree with the Xum's argument as then I see no need to even know how a Magus' arcane pool works for the blade to function - the rules are all self-contained.

On the flip side, I think the blade should be able to enchant itself. It seems like a reasonable and logical option - though it might have made the black blade archetype a no-brainer for any magus who plans to use APs to enchant their blade regularly. (Only a magus who wants to hold back all points for spell recall most of the time would see the tradeoffs as a disadvantage.)

While I can see the argument for it as written it looks as if the intent is very clear that they are separate. Also if you could use them for both powers what would be the point of draining points from the sword in the first place.

Spell recall. The only thing this interpretation would give you is the ability to use the blade's own pool to enchant itself and give itself weapon enhancements.

Hmmm.....

Actually, it's all a moot point. Even if you read it as Xum intended, the only thing it could do is give itself a +1 (which it already has).

A +2 or higher enhancement and weapon properties all require 5th level or higher. Even if the blade gets its own arcane pool class feature, it definitely never gets class levels of any sort.

Problem solved. (Edit: I guess you could have that +1 stack with the existing bonus, but that's still pretty weak at the cost of 1 point once you hit 5th or higher.)

Not to derail this, but in looking through the Black Blade ability, I noticed Black Blade Strike has a non-typed bonus to damage (presumably to stack with the Arcane Pool ability which is an enhancement bonus).

I notice the feat Arcane strike (at least in the PRD) has non-typed, do non-typed bonuses stack or do they follow the normal stacking rules? I did a cursory search but nothing definitive.

First off, the visectionist gives you d6 sneak attacks, no changes there, and second, even if it did, it would be explicitly called out.

As for the issue, I'm uncertain.

Does it? I thought the player in our group said otherwise when he made his, perhaps i should check the book then have him re-examine why he thought as much. if it does, then i do apologize for that misconception, however I still stand by the pools work mechanically only as they are written in each section.

kitmehsu wrote:

First off, the visectionist gives you d6 sneak attacks, no changes there, and second, even if it did, it would be explicitly called out.

As for the issue, I'm uncertain.

Actually, I'm fairly certain it provides sneak attack a die size smaller than that of the original bomb die, which i thought was a d6 for medium creatures. I may be mistaken, and my books are not in front of me at the moment.

No, it is exactly as the Rogue SA, including damage die size. On a side note, sneak attack die don't change with creature size. They are always Xd6, be they Diminutive or Colossal.

Not to derail this, but in looking through the Black Blade ability, I noticed Black Blade Strike has a non-typed bonus to damage (presumably to stack with the Arcane Pool ability which is an enhancement bonus).

I notice the feat Arcane strike (at least in the PRD) has non-typed, do non-typed bonuses stack or do they follow the normal stacking rules? I did a cursory search but nothing definitive.

Non-typed bonuses stack, as only bonuses of the same type do not (usually) stack, and non-type is NOT, technically, a type. I do not remember which page that is answered on in the Core, but I remember checking on it for other situations. I'll look alter when I have the book and find it for you.

@Edgar, Thank you for that clarification, I will let my fellow player know. As for the size difference, I thought it stayed the same, but was not positive as I do no currently have the books in-front of me (as mentioned earlier) and thought I'd be as safe as possible.