How successful is a druid that goes the spellcaster route instead of the Wild Shape route? Is it a viable choice, or is it just a wanna be Cleric/Wizard (depending on defensive or offensive preference?)
The spell list seems to be more offensive and/or less party-friendly than a Cleric. Is a Druid effectively biting off more than they can chew by trying to get the best of both worlds, or does it actually work?
How important is the Domain/Animal Companion choice?
How successful is a druid that goes the spellcaster route instead of the Wild Shape route? Is it a viable choice, or is it just a wanna be Cleric/Wizard (depending on defensive or offensive preference?)
The spell list seems to be more offensive and/or less party-friendly than a Cleric. Is a Druid effectively biting off more than they can chew by trying to get the best of both worlds, or does it actually work?
How important is the Domain/Animal Companion choice?
A druid can easily function as a caster. Wildshape remains a nice addition (especially if you don't mind annoying your gm by soaring far above the battlefield casting your long range spells) as becoming small or later on tiny is great for a spell caster.
The spells are a bit more offensive than the cleric, and while you might not be as effective as a cleric you can hold your own without problem.
If you want to do both, you are biting more than you have to chew. But with a high point make, it is possible. For efficiency one or the other is better, as you are either casting spells or using melee at a given time.
I really like the Animal Companion. At low to mid levels they can be very important. Personally I've always felt making a bad trade when getting a single domain, since the cleric gets two. Those feelings aside, domains does provide some interesting abilities you wouldn't get otherwise, and they are great at fitting your character to a certain theme.
I've played this character from 1st level to 9th level in a CotCT PbP on these forums. Hes extremely caster focused, took Urban Druid for spontaneous domain casting (I still prepare a few summons each day). I far prefer it to a wild shape build.
I would recommend the domain over the animal companion. My druid regularly seems to outperform the party now (including the straight wizard) but its a slow start; the caster druid takes a while to really come into his own. The domain obviously gets better and better as you level and in the early levels it feels like a bad trade.
You get plenty of battlefield control, some key buffs, a few decent blasts and far cheaper out of combat healing that the CLW stick (or in the worst case scenario, your sack of Goodberries at least saves everybody a charge). I've actually found that a caster Druid feels just as powerful as a Wizard and a lot less boring.
Personal spell favourites of this character so far have been Aqueous Orb, Hydraulic Torrent, Fireball (I know, I know... But i've rolled above average damage almost every time and i've pretty much ended an encounter before damage was taken with two decent fireballs many times), Stone Call (minor blast + battlefield control- even better when you have Feather Step cast on your Fighter ;) ), Flaming Sphere (nice DoT effect) as well as the animal companion on steroids effect (Summon Natures Ally 5 + Bulls Strength + Animal Growth + Atavism= win).
Also, make friends with Rods. Many friends. Top of your buying needs is a headband of wisdom +6, but Rods are definitely worth using.
TLDR: Caster druid works, take the domain for it though.
And- best of both worlds requires incredibly high dice rolls for ability scores, or a VERY generous point buy.
For a caster Druid one could think about taking a eagle domain.
You don't get an animal companion but instead a familiar, some other goodies and the domain Spells.
Take fire domain, and dip into sorcerer for one level, take the Elemental(water) bloodline, and you will have a blaster extraordinaire.
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[A druid can easily function as a caster. Wildshape remains a nice addition (especially if you don't mind annoying your gm by soaring far above the battlefield casting your long range spells) as becoming small or later on tiny is great for a spell caster.
The spells are a bit more offensive than the cleric, and while you might not be as effective as a cleric you can hold your own without problem.
If you want to do both, you are biting more than you have to chew. But with a high point make, it is possible. For efficiency one or the other is better, as you are either casting spells or using melee at a given time.I really like the Animal Companion. At low to mid levels they can be very important. Personally I've always felt making a bad trade when getting a single domain, since the cleric gets two. Those feelings aside, domains does provide some interesting abilities you wouldn't get otherwise, and they are great at fitting your character to a certain theme.
Basically this. This is exactly how I play druids, with an emphasis on spells and not so much on melee. Wild shape transforms from a combat power to an extremely versatile scouting/spying/mobility ability.
Warning though: prepare your GM for your intentions. Some GMs are so used to "Dire-tiger-pounce" druids that they are caught completely off guard by "I turn into a pigeon/rat to spy on the secret meeting" types, who fight using their spells.
Take fire domain, and dip into sorcerer for one level, take the Elemental(water) bloodline, and you will have a blaster extraordinaire.
What's the big deal with the dip? Alternate energy type when necessary?
My 8th level archer druid functions just fine as a spell casting druid in addition to her archery. Druids get some of the best buff and battlefield control spells in the game. They may not have the offensive options of a wizard, nor the offensive firepower of a sorcerer, but they should make that up easily with a well buffed animal companion.
Wild shape is one of the best options for a caster druid, either for scouting and spying or for flying above the battlefield casting spells using the "natural spell" feat.
If you have the desire and tactical ability to manage battlefield control, a druid is one of the best options out there.
I have wanted to take on a summoning druid or one that uses a lot of conjuration spells like stone call and other things at low levels varisan tatoo conjuration might be really helpful for a caster druid with longer battlefield control times and your summons last longer. The prequisite spell focus conjuration you will want for augment summoning anyway.
If you are going to play a casting druid, you might want to pump as much as you can into Use Magic Device. If you are going to cast spells, there are some nice non-druid spells that you can use through wands or scrolls.
You can pretty much do anything with a Druid and it'll turn out okay.
Ask a mage if he'd like to be able to assume the form of a Bat at will and cast out of that form.
I've had caster druids in the game I GM they are just as good if not better.
My most successful character is a caster druid. Well, a mystic theurge with druid spells forming half her spell list actually, but she's primarily a druid caster.
I've always gone with the animal companion before her. I tried the fire domain when I made her though, and it turned out to be extremely fun. Those few extra spells that druids can't normally get are useful.
3e's wild shape took what was originally a marginal/secondary class feature and made it into a primary class feature. Druids as casters are still how I think of them and enjoy playing them. Wild shape grants long duration access to multiple movement modes, infiltration capabilities, numerous special attack forms .. great stuff to add onto the considerable and generally unique spells roster. Only thing vaguely amounting to drawbacks are handled by two feats (Eschew Materials and Natural Spell). Added bonus if you take Silent Spell, Still Spell and Quicken Spell.
Default summoning capability is superior to arcane and clerical summons by the simple virtue of ignoring protection from (alignment) spells and their higher level versions. Stirges are nasty at low level and a cheap way to add as much as +10 to AC or attack at higher levels.
Its also a question of maximizing abilities vs roleplaying. If you want to play a caster druid, and enjoy it, then go for it.
I know that my characters mever seem to completely tweak every advantage out of every build possibility, but I enjoy caster druids and have never been disappointed playing one.
SNA is affected by Prot From Alignment, unless I'm missing something. Which is entirely possible.
Take fire domain, and dip into sorcerer for one level, take the Elemental(water) bloodline, and you will have a blaster extraordinaire.What's the big deal with the dip? Alternate energy type when necessary?
The purpose of the dip is to flesh out the energy types the Druid has access to. Druids have plenty of fire and electricity magic, but almost no viable cold damage (Ice Storm falls well behind other spells damage wise), plus cold is the least common energy resistance/immunity type you will come across in the game.
3e's wild shape took what was originally a marginal/secondary class feature and made it into a primary class feature. Druids as casters are still how I think of them and enjoy playing them. Wild shape grants long duration access to multiple movement modes, infiltration capabilities, numerous special attack forms .. great stuff to add onto the considerable and generally unique spells roster. Only thing vaguely amounting to drawbacks are handled by two feats (Eschew Materials and Natural Spell). Added bonus if you take Silent Spell, Still Spell and Quicken Spell.
Default summoning capability is superior to arcane and clerical summons by the simple virtue of ignoring protection from (alignment) spells and their higher level versions. Stirges are nasty at low level and a cheap way to add as much as +10 to AC or attack at higher levels.
How do stirges add to your AC or attack?
SNA is affected by Prot From Alignment, unless I'm missing something. Which is entirely possible.
None of them are aligned outsiders :) - they do not gain any of the alignment templates as they do with summon monster spells.
Mabven, they can be commanded to take the Aid action. ^__^
Prot from Alignment only cares about alignments, not subtypes.
Summon Monster doesn't give alignment subtypes either, even with the Celestial / Fiendish / etc. templates.
You would also have to spend a full-round action to command the stirge to do that, as that's Pushing. At the very least (if the GM allows it to be under "defend" and treats them as possessing the Defend trick...somehow...), you could do that as a Move action.
But that's just for one stirge, not all of them.
SNA is affected by Prot From Alignment, unless I'm missing something. Which is entirely possible.None of them are aligned outsiders :) - they do not gain any of the alignment templates as they do with summon monster spells.
Mabven, they can be commanded to take the Aid action. ^__^
Not sure how you would command a magical beast with an INT of one and no language to take the "aid another" action.
SNA is affected by Prot From Alignment, unless I'm missing something. Which is entirely possible.
Depends on what you summon. Unlike Summon Monster, SNA does not summon celestial or Infernal creatures by default (though some of the possible summons have alignment subtypes), which Prot from Alignments requires to "hook into" as I understand it.
Celestial and Fiendish do not give alignment subtypes. Both spells include clauses that indicate that creatures summoned through them have your alignment (all such creatures without alignment subtypes in the case of SNA, and all creatures marked with * for SM).
The prot spells only care about alignment, not subtype. Otherwise none of the effects would work against undead.
@Cheapy - I stand corrected. SNA does change the alignment of the sumoned creature to match yours, as long as it does not already have an alignment subtype, and the spell also takes that alignment descriptor. For the most part, then, a Druid's summoned creatures will be stopped by "Protection from ____" spells
Been seeing a lot of board-chatter recently about this...
SNA is affected by Prot From Alignment, unless I'm missing something. Which is entirely possible.None of them are aligned outsiders :) - they do not gain any of the alignment templates as they do with summon monster spells.
Mabven, they can be commanded to take the Aid action. ^__^
I don't know of many GMs who would allow this sort of thing. Stirges aren't trained attack beasts and they have an int of 1 I believe.
Natural Spell pretty much eliminates the need for Eschew Materials.
Heh, I wondered who else had noticed this. :)
I'm playing a primarily caster Druid and it's a lot of fun. If I weren't enjoying the utility aspects, it wouldn't be so fun. But flying around scouting is almost like cheating. Turning into a water elemental to put a fire that threatened an ally's library earned the DM's dirty look, yay! If I had a little more imagination, then I could exploit my earth elemental form...
True I can't heal like a Cleric, but I can heal. I can't quite battlefield control like an arcane caster, but I come close. I can't quite summon like a Summoner, but again I come close. Throw in some buffs and nifty class skills at four per level, and you have a very useful character.
I don't know of many GMs who would allow this sort of thing. Stirges aren't trained attack beasts and they have an int of 1 I believe.SNA is affected by Prot From Alignment, unless I'm missing something. Which is entirely possible.None of them are aligned outsiders :) - they do not gain any of the alignment templates as they do with summon monster spells.
Mabven, they can be commanded to take the Aid action. ^__^
There's a certain Paizo module in which stirges are, indeed, trained attack beasts (among other things). I don't think they're trainable to that extent, though, not with that Int score. And definitely not Ye Randomme Summoned Styrgys.
If I know which module you're referring to, they aren't so much trained as they are magic!'d, IIRC.
you can train stirges. it's not too different from training a dog.
you can train stirges. it's not too different from training a dog.
Yes, you can train stirges, but the 1-20 rounds they could possibly exist using a summon spell does not give you a fraction of the time you need to train anything.
I don't know of many GMs who would allow this sort of thing. Stirges aren't trained attack beasts and they have an int of 1 I believe.SNA is affected by Prot From Alignment, unless I'm missing something. Which is entirely possible.None of them are aligned outsiders :) - they do not gain any of the alignment templates as they do with summon monster spells.
Mabven, they can be commanded to take the Aid action. ^__^
I had a player use this trick and didn't think much of it, as the summon (critter) spells are clear enough in spelling out that the critters attack at the moment of the spell's completion.
Figured that it was a reasonable allowance given that the CRB allows no means of accelerating the casting time.
Good catch though - best to use the elementals.
That SNA tacks on alignment of the caster and such. A Neutral Druid's summons thereby ignore protection from alignment spells, as the spells in question ward against natural weapons of the keyed alignment, yes?
you can train stirges. it's not too different from training a dog.Yes, you can train stirges, but the 1-20 rounds they could possibly exist using a summon spell does not give you a fraction of the time you need to train anything.
Sure, you couldn't teach an animal something in 1-20 rounds, but that's why Push Animal is an option. It's a full round action to get it to perform a trick.
Is this a good idea? Probably not. There are better things to spend a full round action on, especially when it only affects a single creature.
Yep, a true neutral character's summons won't really be affected.
True I can't heal like a Cleric, but I can heal.
Nonsense, Spark + Glorious Heat = just as good as the cleric (assuming in combat healing is a wasted action). =)
True I can't heal like a Cleric, but I can heal.Nonsense, Spark + Glorious Heat = just as good as the cleric (assuming in combat healing is a wasted action). =)
That was hit with the nerfhammer.
The vast majority of druids I've seen have only used Wild Shape as an afterthought, and they seemed to work out fine (with the exception of the Monk 6/Druid 6, who had some trouble competing with the rest of the party).
True I can't heal like a Cleric, but I can heal.Nonsense, Spark + Glorious Heat = just as good as the cleric (assuming in combat healing is a wasted action). =)That was hit with the nerfhammer.
Only if you follow PFS rules.
Edit: I guess some people/GMs put weight behind PFS/forum rulings/clarifications but others only adhere to published errata. IF the latter, it is still a legitimate combo as far as I know.
Some people actually use the rules as intended.
And the spark + glorious heat combo is very so much not intended, as the lead designer of the Pathfinder RPG told us.
Some people actually use the rules as intended.
And the spark + glorious heat combo is very so much not intended, as the lead designer of the Pathfinder RPG told us.
That's true but then again, I'm not going to look up the intention of everything that gets published. I take publication to mean intent, and when that's not true, like in this case, I take errata for intent. Yes, Jason's opinion/intent is clear but it depends on how you play your game at home. My regular GM never reads anything on these forums; errata and intent means nothing to him, only the printed word. I bring it up for the OP because it is still, after almost a year, a RAW legal option.
Then we also trend into opinion with developer intent. I do not agree with Jason's intent. Unlimited OOC healing doesn't hurt anything, in my opinion of course.
Anyway, off-topic, difference of opinion, much respect to you Cheapy. Party on.
Some people actually use the rules as intended.
And the spark + glorious heat combo is very so much not intended, as the lead designer of the Pathfinder RPG told us.
Man, Cheapy, you gotta at least try to live up to your name. This combo is about as cheap as anything I have ever seen - live up to your name and advocate for it unto death!