The Lost Lands: The Lost City of Barakus (PFRPG) PDF

I was always a fan of this book. Will there be any new material?

Lost City of Barakus is an excellent low level sandbox with a variety of city, wilderness, and dungeon encounters. I got the D20 version back in the day and picked up the PFRPG version when the KS was announced.

Imnotbob, I would say that the PFRPG version is 90-95% of the D20 version updated and 5-10% new stuff. There are new encounters, a new dungeon level and wilderness encounter or two, but most of the book is the same as the D20 version.

Reviewed first on endzeitgeist.com, then submitted to Nerdtrek and GMS magazine and posted here, on OBS and d20pfsrd.com's shop.

Just wondering how similar this is in style to Slumbering Tsar. I'm pretty disappointed in the way that product slathers on room after room of monsters with very little backstory or believability around the location of monsters. For the money, and based on some reviews, I expected to see a living world with believable ecologies and interactions between things in the world.

Any thoughts?

Devron. Pity the fool!

Anything else?

It's important to understand that Frog God Games publishes books in different styles. Rappan Athuk is a "Dungeon" book - it's not a story, per se, it's a big dungeon. Borderlands Provinces is an "exploration" book, detailing many areas, offering lots of potential adventure ideas, and encouraging people to see what's in the next hex.

This particular book is mostly adventure, with an added note that GMs should adjust it a bit to suit their preferred campaign style and decide for themselves what the hook/goal is.

Thanks, GM Rednal.

I found the older parts of Rappan Athuk to be interesting to read and probably good to play, but the additional stuff (Level 1A etc, if I recall correctly), were as... amateur as Slumbering Tsar. So I still don't feel like my question has been answered here, and maybe that's because no one (so far) has the same taste as I do.

So I'll ask again, from a different angle:

I'm not interested in a map with a different monster in every room and a terrible justification for why they're there. I can do that myself.

What I'm interested in is a well thought-out world that I can put PC's in, where they will feel like the entities that exist there are there for a reason. I love super interesting ideas that I would have taken time to think about myself (the original Rappan Athuk has that - Slumbering Tsar etc... no so much.)

I can draw a map and toss monsters into it easily enough.

If you've ever read Caverns of Thracia, that's my baseline for a well thought-out dungeon that is an absolute tickle to read. It doesn't have a different monster in every room. The monsters have long histories that help me decide what they would do in different situations. It helps me build a story around the already complex and well-considered interactions and histories that the author has written in.

So again:

I'm wondering if Barakus is a bunch of maps with a barely-logical assortment of monsters sitting next to each other with no life, waiting for you to open the door to their room (a la Slumbering Tsar), or is it a living world that is waiting to unfold as the players discover it?

I see that Barakus and Tsar have two different authors, and I've heard a lot of great things about Bill Webb, so I should check this out.

I'm sorry to say I was really dismayed by Slumbering Tsar and it led me to realize that my tastes are very different than some of the big reviewers on this site. I really can't see how that thing has a 5 star rating.

I'm tempted to start reviewing myself so people can get another perspective.

I strongly encourage you to do so. ^^ Reviews are helpful for the whole industry, and among many other things help 3PP companies understand their audience better, and perhaps improve future works.

Let's see... to answer your question, I think this book is probably more like Slumbering Tsar, in that it's mostly an area that can be explored. It has an Adventure Background explaining how the place came to be, but exploring Barakus is more of just an adventure, without much of a pre-made plot for the players (indeed, I think they offer several different hooks, and encourage tweaking it to your liking). It's kind of a book meant for GMs who are starting an adventure in this area of the Lost Lands and want a low-level dungeon and some side-quests they can work into the plot they're making.

If you're looking for more of a living world and a story, I encourage looking at the Northlands Saga instead, which is more of a full adventure path with a specific plot to it.

I actually don't need books with a plot for the characters, but I do need books with an internal logic.

It's not the form of the book (adventure vs sandbox) that I'm curious about... It's the content. Does this adventure have a different monster in every area that has no relation to adjacent monsters? That's what slumbering tsar is like. That's what other reviewers have not mentioned, and it's a huge deal if you're running a game where you're looking for any amount of believability in the world. Thats what I'm wondering about.

I'll buy this book and review it.

I actually don't need books with a plot for the characters, but I do need books with an internal logic.

It's not the form of the book (adventure vs sandbox) that I'm curious about... It's the content. Does this adventure have a different monster in every area that has no relation to adjacent monsters? That's what slumbering tsar is like. That's what other reviewers have not mentioned, and it's a huge deal if you're running a game where you're looking for any amount of believability in the world. Thats what I'm wondering about.

I'll buy this book and review it.

Ahhh I got you - the answer to that is much more no than yes.

The wilderness area is pretty much a wilderness - although I found every encounter to be logical and have nice writeups it's not a wilderness campaign and so you find some interesting locations and encounters but it's not meant to be 100% cohesive - other than being believable as wilderness.

The town is what I'd call 100% cohesive and logical - and well done.

The dungeons are what I would call 70% cohesive with the odd lair encounter - there actually is a story behind many of the encounters and some of them even have plot hooks from the town area. I think however it works in the context - the lost city is a big magical trap for an ancient evil that has been overtaken by all kinds of things - hobgoblins - orcs - goblins - and critters - Some of the 'wtf' is leftover from being a magical trap, so I do think it works in context.

That my opinion however.

Thanks, that's very helpful!

I agree that a 'real' wilderness is somewhat random. Sounds worth checking out!

What I'm interested in is a well thought-out world that I can put PC's in, where they will feel like the entities that exist there are there for a reason. I love super interesting ideas that I would have taken time to think about myself...

Huh. That's pretty much a perfect description of what I'm looking for in adventures.

I hope you do start writing reviews -- it sounds like how much you like adventures will be a good indicator of how much I'd get out of them!

Thanks, that's very helpful!

I agree that a 'real' wilderness is somewhat random. Sounds worth checking out!

NP - As they convert stuff over I've noticed much more thought that has gone into how it fits into the 'world' of the lost lands and I believe it's been affecting the adventure design.

I will say a good followup to Barakus is 'Cults of the Sundered Kingdom' - and between the two products you could have a campaign that goes from level 1 to level 13-14ish on the slow XP track that is pretty damn awesome. Cults is written more 'ap style' without as large of a level range with solid plots/motivation and thought in every adventure and a nice meta plot that ties it all together - in starts around level 5 in the Barakus area which is around where you'd be wrapping up adventures from the book.

Sword of Air is another fantastic book - however it's like a campaign overlay though - as it has 'stuff' that happens at different level ranges and isn't meant to fill in all the gaps - it does however go to a higher level and is suitable to use on top of almost anything else you are doing (with work to move locations/etc. if you are running outside the lost lands).

I think FGG has a basic philosophy of game design that goes back to the beginning of D&D.

In the early days it was more a game of exploration and discovery rather than a game of stories and logic. I know that sometimes those old adventures did not make a lot of sense with placement of monsters, and sometimes it was distracting.

But the essence of a game of exploration can make for an amazing game. My group has a mix of those who started with 1st edition, and those that started with 3rd edition. Those that started with 1st edition get the Lost Lands in a way that the later starters don't quite get the same way.

What I really like about all the work is that it is such a sandbox. Unlike an AP it does not matter if the group abandons an adventure to do something else.

My group was just doing Barakas, and the jumped right into the caves in the hills. They ran into trouble, and needed to go back to town to actually survive (almost lost half the party), and when they got the help they needed, which took most of their money, they were asked if they could do a task for the local priest. They decided they would take up that task and they got on the road. I doubt they will ever make it back to Endhome from there. It is a very long trek to do what the priest asked them, and it will likely take three or four game sessions to get there. I cannot see them then heading back that 2000 or so miles to continue in Endhome. At that stage they may go onto Tsar or who knows where. It kind of doesn't matter where, there is adventure everywhere.

About Barakas I would say that mostly things hold together, in the actual caves and dungeons of Barakas there are areas where there are related creatures, like a group of Hobgoblins in several rooms, or goblins, or ratfolk. And at the same time a room or two can have something totally unrelated to the creatures around them.

I see that Barakus and Tsar have two different authors, and I've heard a lot of great things about Bill Webb, so I should check this out.

I'm sorry to say I was really dismayed by Slumbering Tsar and it led me to realize that my tastes are very different than some of the big reviewers on this site. I really can't see how that thing has a 5 star rating.

I'm tempted to start reviewing myself so people can get another perspective.

Based on what you have posted here on what you are looking for it would probably be best to not buy FGG modules. Their modules are designed with an old-school feel, something that emphasizes challenge/difficulty and fun vs. "logical" encounter design.

If you are looking for product with more internal consistency I would recommend checking out Raging Swan modules and environs which are structurally set up differently and have more of a focus on consistency, balance and cohesion. Or Paizo APs/modules, which are based more on story/balanced encounters and less on challenge/difficulty.

I am a big fan of FGG - in fact they are my primary source of material for Pathfinder or AD&D games but their material is not for everyone, especially not for new-school players who don't understand what they are trying to do as a publisher.
Their big influences were old modules like The Keep on the Borderlands, Village of Hommlet and the Tomb of Horrors and that is what they are trying to replicate in their adventures. If that isn't your gaming background or is something you want to emulate in your gaming with newer product then I would recommend you look elsewhere because you are just going to get frustrated.

I know my logical encounter mind needed to switch around and change the way some of the dungeon encounters in Barakas were laid out, bth - they would work well just as written if you are running an old school style dungeon crawl. 100% cohesive encounter/dungeon design - no. Did my players have fun running through it - yes, very much so. But that's because they like that style of play and focus more on the fun and challenge instead of "why was that ghoul over here and how did it get here past the Ogre?"

I didn't subscribe to Tsar sight unseen, I looked into its history and development and I looked at the other products I purchased from Necromancer games (Bill's prior company with Clark Peterson) before I dropped 150 bucks on a product so I knew what I was getting into. Tsar wasn't written by an "amateur" - Greg Vaughn is actually one of the best writers in the industry, but if you don't like sandbox dungeon bashes it won't matter who wrote the adventure - you probably still wouldn't like it.

All that being said, you are going to be very frustrated trying to make their adventures fit what you are looking for when you are looking for something different than what they are selling.

Suffice it to say that I disagree with some of the above comments.

First: There are a number of oldschool modules (including Tomb of Horrors, Keep on the Borderlands and Hommlet, mentioned above) that have very good (some of the best) internal logic. Caverns of Thracia, published in 1979, is one of the best. I also like B4: The Lost City, Lost Caverns of Tsjocanth, and Barrier Peaks. Those modules are crazy and they make sense. We should be aspiring for that, and not say something lesser is good. tenfootpole.org does a great job of interrogating what's good about old school design. Take a look at that and get back to me. Also, check out "Jacquaying the Dungeon" - http://thealexandrian.net/wordpress/13085/roleplaying-games/jaquaying-the-d ungeon

So referring to OSG as inherently illogical, or solely difficult-based, is a misnomer. Let's aspire to better than that, and let's ask for the best in our reviews. Let's give our players awesome games that the DM doesn't have to write from scratch.

Also, I did a shiteload of reading on Tsar before I bought it, so you can cut the veiled insult there. The problem is that most reviewers claim it's filled with amazing ideas, when it isn't. It doesn't hold a candle to any of the old classics I mentioned above.

I am aware of Greg Vaughn's publishing history, and I didn't say he was an amateur - I said the book was amateurish. He can, and has, done better.

Let's get specific. I'm going to let my $89 of frustration shine here:

**SPOILER** Example: A lich who is the money-changer of a town isn't an amazing idea. Anyone can say that a lich is the money-changer in a town. The work comes from explaining how that affects the rest of the town (which is filled with an equal hodgepodge of weird-ass shit). The module does the easy work (here's a map, here's what lives here) - it leaves the hard work (WTF are these things doing here?) to the DM. There is SO MUCH opoprtunity to build the town around that one entity. You dont' even need to describe things heavily. Just put in other beings that are "serving the usurer" by "blankity blank" and "blank". Why is the lich there? Here's what we get: "He came to the camp for reasons of his own a few generations ago." Gee, thanks. WHAT. ARE. THE. REASONS?!? Weak. So. Weak. Just link it to a single other location in the module and I would be 25% satiated at least.

Some reviewers say "open any page in Tsar and you'll find an amazing idea." I see the opposite - every page I open leaves me frustrated. Ready? Here hoes - random page: pp 215-218 "The Tunnel". I have a tunnel that is "lair for a band of demons" and "access to...Area H6). That tells me nothing about what these demons are doing hanging out in a tunnel. It tells me they live there (which is obvious) and that the tunnel links to another location. Are they hiding from someone? Do they have a partnership with others somewhere? Hommlet, Keep on the Borderlands, the Slavers Modules all give better description than this. Well. Any description at all is better than this.

Following that is a series of rooms where demons are "lurking" and "listening for intruders". In the 6 pages of text, I find one line of description that might be a seed for something: In one room, the demons are "planning their next raids." On whom?

In the same area is a band of morlocks. There is zero mention of the relationship between the morlocks and the demons. They are a "wandering tribe that has colonized the area." Do the demons raid the morlocks? Kinda doubt it because they live right next to each other. Do some work besides draw a map and toss in monsters. That's what I'm asking.

Also, the trap in here is dumb.

It's just not interesting stuff and not worth the money. That's my point.

I do like parts of Rappan Athuk (as I mentioned), but that's different than Tsar. If you can't see the differences, or the difference between Tsar and the modules I mentioned above, then I don't think we're going to have a generative conversation. But I'm happy to continue to try.

Removed some posts and their responses. Please keep this thread about the product, don't insult other posters, and don't drag in discussions from other forums.

What would I lose if I ran the Lost City of Barakus in S&W instead of PF? I can see the appeal of a simpler system and combat in the S&W version, but am concerned about dumbing down or replacement of monsters, NPCs, story hooks, magical abilities, and so forth. Could anyone pls tell me what specifically I would lose, and why running it in PF would be better?

You'd basically lose nothing; it's a different experience, but rules-wise, the two versions do the same job. Combats will be less tactical in S&W and skills will be instead handled more directly via RPGing since S&W isn't this precise with the minutiae. It's a matter of taste and aesthetics, at least in my opinion.

Oh, wow. Endzeitgeist in the flesh. I love your reviews, and read them often. Thanks!

Always glad when I can help, Guang! And thank you very much for the kind words!