Spheres of Power (PFRPG)

Still waiting for that download...

I'm not sure what the problem might be Malwing; I sent Paizo an email asking about it. Have other people gotten their downloads from here? There are two different downloads (the preview pdf and the actual pdf) but other than making sure you have the right one, I can't think what the problem might be.

I got both downloads, in fact, just fine.

Malwing, are you waiting for the download from the Print/PDF bundle, the preorder print product, or just a straight download?

I can and have downloaded the preview. I preordered the softcover august 5th but no download link has appeared on my downloads page or this page. It notes that I purchased the product but no download link as if I have not purchased.

Never mind. I had the preview PDF from another source and adding the preview PDF to my downloads somehow fixed everything. Seems to be a glitch only happening because I did not have the preview download. Not holding it against anyone.

No wait that was just the sample PDF. No actual PDF in my downloads or this page. So I'm back to square one.

Ah, I see what happened. Since the softcover is still on preorder, the PDF isn't in your downloads.

So do I not get the free PDF from preordering the softcover?

So do I not get the free PDF from preordering the softcover?

Your preordered product hasn't shipped yet—when it ships, you (and anybody else who preordered) will get the PDF.

Liz, is there any way to get the PDF out to people who preordered the book? I'll get things sorted on my end as quickly as possible, but I'd feel better if everyone who ordered the PDF could get their hands on it now.

On my end I'm fine now. I needed multiple copies so that players have access to information when I replace spellcasting with spherecasting and ordering more books got me the PDF. But would be nice if people who are in what my situation was could get the PDF now.

While here I thought I'd post some thoughts that I'll add to a review once the whole thing is finished.

Spheres play out the same way I expected. I somewhat wish that caster level would be called something else to avoid confusion when spellcasters and spherecasters are in the same setting. I don't understand why MSB and MSD aren't a part of the core Pathfinder rules. It makes too much sense.

The Conjuration sphere feels like what the Summoner wanted to be. Its less diverse for sure so the Summoner still has a place in the game, but it feels more balanced and covers a lot of grounds in fewer words.

Did anyone else think of Final Fantasy black mages with the destruction sphere? Destruction seems like the most broken and weakest sphere. The base ability is a scaling at-will ranged touch attack force blast. That's so useful. I can see a lot of casters blowing a talent for just the destruction sphere and no destruction talents because after that nothing is as useful as spending a feat to be a warlock on the side. The destruction sphere is handy to specialize in if you want to tear through mooks but I think that the fact that it starts off as force damage is probably too front-loaded.

Divination brings up that these casters don't naturally have Detect Magic. To me this makes spherecasters a peg weaker than spellcasters but I don't think all casters should have gotten detect magic in the first place. This also gets brought up with the feat 'Cantrips' In any other circumstance that is one broken feat that does way too much but with sphere casters it just brings them a step closer to normal casters which just shows how unfair normal casting is at level 1.

Armorist looks like he stole the Magus's arcane pool and turned it up a notch. The fact that it functions for weapons, armor and shields makes it look sturdy but since you're conjuring the weapons its more like a discount than a buff. It has potential access to bonus combat feat every even level so its strictly better than a fighter, although that may be the Fighter's fault more than the Armorist. In fact the Mageknight is in the same boat since it gets talents that are pretty much better than any feat it could take. Although to be fair, it takes two feats for a fighter to be a low spherecaster so it isn't too bad.

The hedgewitch looks cool but I have a few things to say against it... I can make Int my casting stat and easily have 16 int, granting me 9 skill ranks per level with this class. Also it has a lot of class skills. This is a pretty skillful caster. It is otherwise a very adjustable class that looks like it would build the caster you want.

The Elementalist looks like it has a ton of defenses. Seriously this guy has a scaling dodge bonus, evasion, elemental resistances, All good saves. The playtest version of the Kineticist is so weak next to this guy. I'm really worried about the Kineticist when that comes out. If it's as weak as the playtest version this is the second replacement that went in my downloads within a weak in terms of 'elemental guy' themes go. With the focus on the destruction sphere and some combat feats this guy looks like it can put on some hurt as well. Looking at it closely its not THAT good. The destruction sphere is moderately good for damage and isn't terribly versatile and there isn't much incentive to go out of the destruction sphere for the class, so the Elementalist can do some damage and avoid a ton of damage but overall pays for it by lack of versatility or outright broken things spells can do. If it had arcane casting I'd be worried.

We converted Witch and Hunter to use Spheres of Power. In doing so we came to a few decisions that addresses problems you mentioned.

1. All high-level casters get the Cantrips feat as a bonus feat at first level. It just makes sense for them to have it.

2. Spellcraft can be used by sphere casters to detect magic and read magic. The difference between this and the Divination Sphere is Spellcraft can only be used to detect magic on a specific location or item or creature - one roll per magic aura. Divination requires no roll and can be kept going for longer.

Just bought and started playing with this to use in my homebrew campaign. I really like the majority of what I'm seeing.

I do think it was a mistake to start destruction out with d6s and force damage. As Malwing mentioned it makes it a no-brainer to take and almost pointless to spend talents on other damage types. It's one of the things I'll be houseruling that they select one of the elemental damage types when they first take it instead. Force and probably sonic damage will use d4s instead of d6s as well since they are so hard to resist and have to be taken with additional talents.

Otherwise still deciding what classes I'll be using, keeping, and converting. The ones they have in Spheres cover the bases pretty well but part of me is hesitant for a few reasons to do away with the other casters from Paizo.

In any case, very excited about this product and glad I picked it up. It feels exactly like the kind of magic system I've been looking for!

We converted Witch and Hunter to use Spheres of Power. In doing so we came to a few decisions that addresses problems you mentioned.

1. All high-level casters get the Cantrips feat as a bonus feat at first level. It just makes sense for them to have it.

2. Spellcraft can be used by sphere casters to detect magic and read magic. The difference between this and the Divination Sphere is Spellcraft can only be used to detect magic on a specific location or item or creature - one roll per magic aura. Divination requires no roll and can be kept going for longer.

I think that if normal casters didn't have such useful zero level spells, the cantrips feat wouldn't and shouldn't exist. Its just that this product brings up that even at zero level spells spellcasters have weird implications on how they effect the rest of the world. Spherecasters are weaker for needing a feat to do cantrips but it also points out how ridiculous getting them for free is in the first place. As I said; In any other circumstance [Cantrips] is one broken feat that does way too much.

Spellcraft to read magic is all well and good because it makes sense but other than it being expected out of every casting class how much does detect magic make sense? Disregarding that It's pretty annoying when players try to detect everything. Also there's the issue of what happens with. If it absolutely needs to happen I agree that detect magic should be baked into spellcraft. I like how it's a first level spell that can be cast as a ritual in D&D 5e. If I were to replace spellcasting with spherecasting I'd just get rid of the cantrips feat and let spellcraft be used to read magic. maybe make some magic 'languages' (like computer code languages) and have it function like Linguistics, then ignore detect magic except with the divination sphere.

In short I'm okay with spherecasters not getting detect/read magic as I don't think those should have been cantrips to begin with.

Part of my reason for giving high casters the Cantrip feat for free is stylistic. I think your average fantasy wizard should be able to levitate a salt shaker across the table during dinner or summon a glowing sphere for a reading light at night. That should just be one of the cool perks of being a caster. Mind you, I wonder if traditionally divine casters should have a different feat since your average fantasy priest probably won't be levitating salt shakers but probably will be purifying water or performing blessings on marriages and babies.

As for Detect Magic as an aspect of Spellcraft, to my mind this is a skill that belongs to those who have mystical ability. I tend towards high fantasy worlds so I don't mind a player making a skill roll to see if an item is magical any more than I mind a player making a skill roll to see if an item is valuable.

I just wouldn't allow any kind of Divination magic except maybe in items. But then again I'm the sort of person who can't stand for the sort of preparation such spells imply.

Did anyone else think of Final Fantasy black mages with the destruction sphere? Destruction seems like the most broken and weakest sphere. The base ability is a scaling at-will ranged touch attack force blast. That's so useful. I can see a lot of casters blowing a talent for just the destruction sphere and no destruction talents because after that nothing is as useful as spending a feat to be a warlock on the side. The destruction sphere is handy to specialize in if you want to tear through mooks but I think that the fact that it starts off as force damage is probably too front-loaded.

I do think it was a mistake to start destruction out with d6s and force damage. As Malwing mentioned it makes it a no-brainer to take and almost pointless to spend talents on other damage types. It's one of the things I'll be houseruling that they select one of the elemental damage types when they first take it instead. Force and probably sonic damage will use d4s instead of d6s as well since they are so hard to resist and have to be taken with additional talents.

Agreed. I’m working up a version of the elementalist for a Greek-themed E10 homebrew setting, partly inspired by Mazes & Minotaurs, and one of the first things I did was house-rule that these elementalists have to take the Energy Focus drawback focused on one of the elements, albeit working to a modified list. They can expand their offensive arsenal by using talents to pick up other blast-types, but only within their chosen elements.

By the same token, other cultures have different takes on the universe, and thus different approaches to magic. For instance, I’m borrowing a lot from the Mongoose Conan 2e setting; magicians from Stygia (apart from their focus on necromancy) are subject to Energy Focus (nether blast), and they’d have to undergo specific training with foreigners to choose other blast-types.

I'd probably start Destruction out as straight lethal damage, with the applying of DR and whatnot that implies, if I changed anything. Make Force damage a talent.

Here's what I came up with for my group, which has a Witch and a Hunter in it:

Witch
A Witch is a high cater.

Note: The Witch still has a familiar and gains Hexes as per the regular class.

At 1st level a Witch gains:

• 1 sphere of her choice.
  
• 1 sphere as determined by her patron.
  
• 3 talents of her choice.
  
• The Cantrips feat.

At even numbered levels a Witch gains:

• 1 talent of her choice.
  
• 1 talent from her patron's sphere.

At odd numbered levels (starting at 3rd level) a Witch gains:

• 1 talent of her choice.

Hunter
A Hunter is a mid caster.

At 1st level a Hunter gains:

• 1 sphere of her choice.
  
• 2 talents of her choice.

At 2nd level and each level beyond a Hunter gains:

• 1 talent of her choice.

---

We also have a gnome in our group with innate pyromancy abilities (she switched out the gnomish illusion abilities for them) and an elf with innate sensing magic abilities (she switched out her elvish magic resistance for them, I believe).

For each of these I gave them access to a specific sphere's base level abilities once per day. So, the gnome has access to the fire branch of the Nature sphere and the elf has access to the Divination sphere.

I would still use other spheres as a Elementalist. I'd definitely dabble in Life, Time, and possibly Protection. It'd feel like a Final Fantasy Red Mage kind of character.

Warp and Telekinesis are also good with minimal investment.

Anyway, while I agree that letting them start with force was a mistake, I don't think that forcing an elementalist to pick one element and stick with it forever is fair. Energy resistances mess with this class so hard that they should be allowed to take the other blast types. Besides, even the class features expect them to have like 3 blast types by level 20.

Also Malwing makes an excellent point about the whole cantrips thing. Its definitely something people dismiss because "well it makes sense for a wizard o have minor magic tricks" yet at the same time Power Attack is a feat instead of a base combat rule.

For the record? The following is my working list.

I think that if normal casters didn't have such useful zero level spells, the cantrips feat wouldn't and shouldn't exist. Its just that this product brings up that even at zero level spells spellcasters have weird implications on how they effect the rest of the world. Spherecasters are weaker for needing a feat to do cantrips but it also points out how ridiculous getting them for free is in the first place. As I said; In any other circumstance [Cantrips] is one broken feat that does way too much.

Wait, what? Other than the damage what does that feat do that's so important? I could see an objection for flavor reasons, but I really don't see how minor effects are broken.

For the record? The following is my working list.

** spoiler omitted **

I like it. You are letting the player get access to multiple elements. They can fight enemies that resist a blast now.

I recommend letting Fire have Thunder Blast as well, to simulate deafening explosions. Makes the most sense of all the options.

Malwing wrote:

I think that if normal casters didn't have such useful zero level spells, the cantrips feat wouldn't and shouldn't exist. Its just that this product brings up that even at zero level spells spellcasters have weird implications on how they effect the rest of the world. Spherecasters are weaker for needing a feat to do cantrips but it also points out how ridiculous getting them for free is in the first place. As I said; In any other circumstance [Cantrips] is one broken feat that does way too much.

Wait, what? Other than the damage what does that feat do that's so important? I could see an objection for flavor reasons, but I really don't see how minor effects are broken.

I am mostly against the likes of detect magic which almost every caster has and is pretty much mandatory. Most of the rest aren't broken in the truest sense but are ridiculous in the context of everything else in the game and especially compared to what non-casters can do (needing 5 feats to wipe your butt and two more to flush.)

I am mostly against the likes of detect magic which almost every caster has and is pretty much mandatory. Most of the rest aren't broken in the truest sense but are ridiculous in the context of everything else in the game and especially compared to what non-casters can do (needing 5 feats to wipe your butt and two more to flush.)

I'm not seeing detect magic as an example effect on my copy. Most of the rest seem like flavor effects that do almost nothing mechanically significant, apart from the damage.

Though I do think its silly to require things these harmless to have casting prerequisites.

Detect magic/read magic aren't part of the cantrip feat in Spheres of Magic. They're the exclusive province of the Divination sphere.

What JGray said.

To sort out my points:

1) I think that the Cantrips feat in Spheres of Power wouldn't exist if normal casting didn't have a laundry list of effects that they get for free.

2) I'm not against the Cantrips feat in context of Pathfinder as a whole but I don't think it's nessesary if spherecasting completely replaces spellcasting as getting all those zero level spells at the price of a feat would be a pretty strong feat even if mechanically it isn't very impressive. It just does quite a lot.

2) I like that Detect/Read Magic effects fall under one sphere because those in particular are powerful enough to be pretty much mandatory so I think they shouldn't be zero level spells or at least not on everyone's spell list.

Trace Coburn wrote:

For the record? The following is my working list.

** spoiler omitted **

I like it. You are letting the player get access to multiple elements. They can fight enemies that resist a blast now.

I recommend letting Fire have Thunder Blast as well, to simulate deafening explosions. Makes the most sense of all the options.

Well, in this paradigm every Corinthian elementalist eventually gets access to two elements’ worth of blasts anyway, so they usually have a good array to choose from by the time they hit the setting’s level-cap at Lvl10.

Adam B. 135 wrote:

Trace Coburn wrote:

For the record? The following is my working list.

** spoiler omitted **

I like it. You are letting the player get access to multiple elements. They can fight enemies that resist a blast now.

I recommend letting Fire have Thunder Blast as well, to simulate deafening explosions. Makes the most sense of all the options.

Well, in this paradigm every Corinthian elementalist eventually gets access to two elements’ worth of blasts anyway, so they usually have a good array to choose from by the time they hit the setting’s level-cap at Lvl10.

That said, Fire only having the one blast was bugging me a fair bit. Yeah, I’ll add Thunder Blast to Fire as well — that gives the non-Fire types a total of five blast-types to choose from over their ten levels, while the pyromaniacs only get four. Given the way many PCs tend to think that “Fire solves EVERYTHING!”, I can spin that. :-D

I can imagine fire being a popular choice simply because choosing fire will get you some fire resistance. Unless your game is very different from most games, I'd imagine getting fire resistance on a character would be great.

2) I'm not against the Cantrips feat in context of Pathfinder as a whole but I don't think it's nessesary if spherecasting completely replaces spellcasting as getting all those zero level spells at the price of a feat would be a pretty strong feat even if mechanically it isn't very impressive. It just does quite a lot.

Yeah, but it doesn't say you get the spells. It gives examples of effects which, other than the damage, are incidental.

Was there a better way to do the feat? Possibly: I could see instead the feat giving a list of minor stuff based off what spheres the caster has.

Malwing wrote:

2) I'm not against the Cantrips feat in context of Pathfinder as a whole but I don't think it's nessesary if spherecasting completely replaces spellcasting as getting all those zero level spells at the price of a feat would be a pretty strong feat even if mechanically it isn't very impressive. It just does quite a lot.

Yeah, but it doesn't say you get the spells. It gives examples of effects which, other than the damage, are incidental.

Was there a better way to do the feat? Possibly: I could see instead the feat giving a list of minor stuff based off what spheres the caster has.

The effects you get are basically most of the zero level arcane spells. None are powerful but I wouldn't' call them incidental especially for flavor reasons. You basically have 9 different kinds of new actions for one feat and leeway to make up more.

There's no better way to do it because I feel like it exists because spellcasters have zero level spells with the same powers. At best I'd divide the abilities among the spheres so that each sphere has an associated list of cantrip level effects for flavor and household utility (such as the mage hand effect obviously being under telekinesis.) much like how Detect Magic's effect falling under the Divination Sphere

At best I'd divide the abilities among the spheres so that each sphere has an associated list of cantrip level effects for flavor and household utility (such as the mage hand effect obviously being under telekinesis.) much like how Detect Magic's effect falling under the Divination Sphere

I was proposing that, only you'd have to take Cantrips to access them. They'd be no-cost no-concentration fluff abilities. But that's only if you want to be strict about access to them, otherwise they'd be free to their spheres.

Well it be fair to give them to base spheres and since the cantrips feat requires the sphere feat anyways just give them the cantrips related to their sphere.

However that's in the context of replacing spells altogether. In the context of spells still existing I'd just give cantrips to sherecasting as a part of a tradition regardless as to whether or not it actually makes sense.

Alright, someone help me out here. I have to be overlooking something.

Invigorate: As a standard action, you

may invigorate a touched creature, granting them temporary hit
points equal to your caster level (minimum: 1). Unlike normal
temporary hit points, this ability can only be used on an injured
target and cannot raise a target’s current hit points plus their
temporary hit points to be higher than their total hit points.
This benefit lasts for 1 hour. Temporary hit points, even from
different sources, do not stack; only the highest bonus applies.

Cure: As a standard action, you may spend a spell point to touch a target and heal it an amount of damage equal to 1d8

+ your caster level. This is a positive energy effect, and as such
may be used to harm undead (Will half).

Why would you ever use invigorate instead of cure? You get both right off the back and I just can't see why you would ever use the prior instead of the latter.

I could see if you could give them temp hit points above their maximum or do invigorate at a range...but from what I can see that is not the case.

*edit* Or do you need healthy invigorate for it to be useful? Seems pointless until you get that though...

Invigorate is free, and Cure takes a point to cast.

You can use invigorate out of combat to get the same effect as healing to ready up for next combat.

Invigorate is an interesting way to have at will healing without infinite healing but I too wonder how useful it will actually be. From my understanding you can't give them extra temporary points, they just have up to your caster level of extra hp if they are injured for that much and that's it. That seems like a mere bandaid at later levels.

Invigorate is an interesting way to have at will healing without infinite healing but I too wonder how useful it will actually be. From my understanding you can't give them extra temporary points, they just have up to your caster level of extra hp if they are injured for that much and that's it. That seems like a mere bandaid at later levels.

The temporary hit points do last for an hour however. In a dungeon, after all the healing is done, sometimes people are ~10 HP from maximum hit points and really want to get completely healed. This ability is for those people, since the temporary hit points will last longer than it takes for the next encounter to finish, and these temporary hit points basically act as true hit points in every way.

Witch
A Witch is a high caster.

Note: The Witch still has a familiar and gains Hexes as per the regular class.

At 1st level a Witch gains:

• 1 sphere of her choice.
  
• 1 sphere as determined by her patron.
  
• 3 talents of her choice.
  
• The Cantrips feat.

At even numbered levels a Witch gains:

• 1 talent of her choice.
  
• 1 talent from her patron's sphere.

At odd numbered levels (starting at 3rd level) a Witch gains:

• 1 talent of her choice.

I like this. I Haven't tried it, or done a build yet, but I do like this. It seems both: thematic AND appropriately powered.

Does this account for spell points? Or would those be equivalent to a Wizard of the same level? (I think there is a formula for that as well, but I haven't had much time to really dive into the materials... I just drooled over geomancy for an hour last night... I want it.

Missed that cure costs a spell point. Totally read over that part and it didn't click. Thanks!

I like this. I Haven't tried it, or done a build yet, but I do like this. It seems both: thematic AND appropriately powered.

Does this account for spell points? Or would those be equivalent to a Wizard of the same level? (I think there is a formula for that as well, but I haven't had much time to really dive into the materials... I just drooled over geomancy for an hour last night... I want it.

There is a formula. It is your caster level + casting ability score modifier + bonuses based on your spellcasting tradition. At first level, high level casters have a caster level of +1 and the others have a +0. So, yes, the Witch has the same number of spellpoints as a Wizard, potentially.

JGray wrote:

Witch
A Witch is a high caster.

Note: The Witch still has a familiar and gains Hexes as per the regular class.

At 1st level a Witch gains:

• 1 sphere of her choice.
  
• 1 sphere as determined by her patron.
  
• 3 talents of her choice.
  
• The Cantrips feat.

At even numbered levels a Witch gains:

• 1 talent of her choice.
  
• 1 talent from her patron's sphere.

At odd numbered levels (starting at 3rd level) a Witch gains:

• 1 talent of her choice.

I like this. I Haven't tried it, or done a build yet, but I do like this. It seems both: thematic AND appropriately powered.

Does this account for spell points? Or would those be equivalent to a Wizard of the same level? (I think there is a formula for that as well, but I haven't had much time to really dive into the materials... I just drooled over geomancy for an hour last night... I want it.

I am writing my own Sphere archetypes right now for the Advanced Players Guide and later the Advanced Class Guide.

Here is what I have so far: Sphere Archetypes expanded

@Adam: Awesome! I'm glad we've got multiple minds looking at it.

@Adam: Awesome! I'm glad we've got multiple minds looking at it.

Thank you! I think I am going to make a thread for it in the homebrew section of the forum. I just finished summoner, but I am honestly worried that I've created a monster. Hopefully the guys down there can help me.

JGray wrote:

@Adam: Awesome! I'm glad we've got multiple minds looking at it.

Thank you! I think I am going to make a thread for it in the homebrew section of the forum. I just finished summoner, but I am honestly worried that I've created a monster. Hopefully the guys down there can help me.

Here's the big problem. How does an alchemist translate?

Adam B. 135 wrote:

JGray wrote:

@Adam: Awesome! I'm glad we've got multiple minds looking at it.

Thank you! I think I am going to make a thread for it in the homebrew section of the forum. I just finished summoner, but I am honestly worried that I've created a monster. Hopefully the guys down there can help me.

Here's the big problem. How does an alchemist translate?

I think that the Spheres System would not work well with the Alchemist. The Alchemist extract list has many effects that cannot be replicated in the spheres system. Also I personally think its cool if alchemy has a completely different subsystem than magic.

So, I'd be open to someone else doing that conversion, but I personally cannot work on it. My soul would not be in it since I think its cooler to have alchemist have their own subsystem.

Here is the thread: Spheres of Power Archetypes Expanded

I hear you. I'm trying to only touch on the things that I need immediately. Which in my party was Witch, Hunter and racial abilities for my gnome and elf. Trying NOT to create too much work for myself. :) Especially since I have my own Pathfinder project down the line.

I understand, but for me this is a fun mental exercise and also an imperative. I look forward to a day when I run my campaigns in a custom setting that uses Akashic Mysteries, Psionics, and Spheres of Power as the only magic systems.

However, many Paizo spellcasters are full of flavor that I truly love. Especially Witches, Oracles, and Bloodragers. Therefore, I must convert these favorites of mine or else I can't run NPCs I enjoy running against my party.