Look Bastards of Golarion works. And for the record, it is far less offensive than Half-Breeds, Half-Bloods, Metis, or any other mixed blood adjective that I can come-up with of the top of my head would be (and I can come up with several that would get me banned from the boards for a period I suspect, or which at the very least would net me a reprimand and the removal of the post.)
NOT AS A PAIZO REPRESENTATIVE
I like the existing title because:
1.) It sounds like a cool title to me.
2.) Half-breeds and half-bloods of Golarion sounds awkward in my opinion.
3.) Now that I know it is not about about evil-doers, con men, or other ne'er-do-wells. I will not ever be confused about it again.
Don't you just love using that word? Ne'er-do-well!!
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Look Bastards of Golarion works. And for the record, it is far less offensive than Half-Breeds, Half-Bloods, Metis, or any other mixed blood adjective that I can come-up with of the top of my head would be (and I can come up with several that would get me banned from the boards for a period I suspect, or which at the very least would net me a reprimand and the removal of the post.)
Oh I don't care about offending people with the word bastard. I just think the title would've been better used for a villain book.
Don't you just love using that word? Ne'er-do-well!!3.) Now that I know it is not about about evil-doers, con men, or other ne'er-do-wells. I will not ever be confused about it again.
I do!
I'm serious though. I withheld some snark from my original post, but I mean it. By the time you complain about how the the title confused you, you are no longer confused.
Unless you have a really freaky short term memory problem, that issue fixes itself in short order.
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For me it is not a conflict between 'half breed' usage and 'perjorative' usage (akin to 'a!~&&&+' 'jerk' 'wretched scum' etc),
but that it just means 'child born out of wedlock' (with absent father), with no particular connoation of 'half breed' at all.
That usage had a perjorative tone in the cultural context, and that was eventually broadened to a more general perjorative usage,
but that is the ultimate meaning of it, not 'half breed', AFAIK.
Definition of BASTARD
1
: an illegitimate child
2
: something that is spurious, irregular, inferior, or of questionable origin
3
a : an offensive or disagreeable person —used as a generalized term of abuseSynonyms
baseborn, illegitimate, misbegotten, natural, spurious, supposititious, unfatheredAntonyms
legitimateRelated Words
fatherless, motherless; nameless; adopted, orphaned
Nothing about half-breeds or anything like that. Maybe more half-breeds are bastards than the average in the Golarion context of humanoid races, but they're not really even related terms.
What WOULD be appropriate to the term 'bastard' is the Changeling race.
Are they included in this product?
3.) Now that I know it is not about about evil-doers, con men, or other ne'er-do-wells. I will not ever be confused about it again.
Don't you just love using that word? Ne'er-do-well!!
I do!
I'm serious though. I withheld some snark from my original post, but I mean it. By the time you complain about how the the title confused you, you are no longer confused.
Unless you have a really freaky short term memory problem, that issue fixes itself in short order.
I'm like the girl from 50 First Dates, only I'm a large, male Puerto Rican ;)
I guess I have no choice but to accept this as the title :p
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Hand-and-a-Halves of Golarion?
I guess I have no choice but to accept this as the title :p
No, please don't let me bully you into accepting it. Who knows? They might change their mind.
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Also, OMG, me and Beckett agree on something. Somebody mark that day in the calendar.
More like "omg! Gorbacz bring puritanical after constantly lambasting the US for that" :p
Also, OMG, me and Beckett agree on something. Somebody mark that day in the calendar.More like "omg! Gorbacz bring puritanical after constantly lambasting the US for that" :p
Pretty much that. Showing boobies is fine, but apparently curse words are a no-no ;)
Don't worry Mr. Gorbacz. I promise to keep my language PG for you :p
I guess I have no choice but to accept this as the title :pNo, please don't let me bully you into accepting it. Who knows? They might change their mind.
It's too late! I've been scarred for life by your internet bullying :p
Naw don't worry. Either way, I'll enjoy this book.
More like "omg! Gorbacz bring puritanical after constantly lambasting the US for that" :p
The bag stands so accused.
What say you, oh hungry satchel?
Golly gee willikers, I hope that swell bag of devouring isn't too peeved at us. I'd feel like I'd go straight to H-E double hockey stick if I kept talking blue :)
<3
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Now, on there other hand, I would guess that most Half-Elves and many Half-Orcs these days are probably the products of two Half-Elf (or half-Orc) parents rather than the alternatives.Do the specifics of a half-elf/orc's parentage (elf/human or half-elf/half-elf) really matter in social situations where merely being a half-elf means that person is somehow inferior socially? Something that, according to the Core Rulebook at least, seems to be relatively widespread among human and elven societies. It's still a half-breed or, in the eyes of those for whom its mixed blood is an issue, a bastard.
Um, probably, yes. And to whom exactly are they see as inferior to? What exactly are you referring to where half-Elves (or Half-Orcs for that matter) are the social outcasts of society, 'cause I don't see it very much. The only Half-Elf bastard (both was and was treated as such), I can ever think of is Tanis, which isn't even Golarion or Pathfinder at all.
So why exactly would two Half-Elves loath their Half-Elf child, or the father just automatically walk out on it because it's a stupid/weak Half-Elf below his recognition?
It might be a lot better to look at the common shared attribute between both the Half-Elf and Half-Orc races that is pretty universal in that they are the child two worlds that need to find their balance and understand their drives, rather than assume that they are the disgraced mutt in everyone else's eyes. Thoughts? In both cases, Half-Orcs and Half-Elves in Golarion are presented as having the best traits to both their parent groups.
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More like "omg! Gorbacz bring puritanical after constantly lambasting the US for that" :pThe bag stands so accused.
What say you, oh hungry satchel?
Out of my 100 uses of the word "bastard" 90 of them are when I go "that $&*#$ bastard". Figures, perhaps people use it differently in that puritanical fascist Amurica! They go like "Tom is a jolly old bastard" or "that nice bastard in the grocery store sold me some great apples!". Wait, that would be Canadians...
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From the Inner Sea World Guide:
which is proceeded by
Out of my 100 uses of the word "bastard" 90 of them are when I go "that $&*#$ bastard". Figures, perhaps people use it differently in that puritanical fascist Amurica! They go like "Tom is a jolly old bastard" or "that nice bastard in the grocery store sold me some great apples!". Wait, that would be Canadians...More like "omg! Gorbacz bring puritanical after constantly lambasting the US for that" :pThe bag stands so accused.
What say you, oh hungry satchel?
I still think you are nifty keen :)
Neato.
For me it is not a conflict between 'half breed' usage and 'perjorative' usage (akin to 'a++#&!%' 'jerk' 'wretched scum' etc),
but that it just means 'child born out of wedlock' (with absent father), with no particular connoation of 'half breed' at all.
That usage had a perjorative tone in the cultural context, and that was eventually broadened to a more general perjorative usage,
but that is the ultimate meaning of it, not 'half breed', AFAIK.Definition of BASTARD
1
: an illegitimate child
2
: something that is spurious, irregular, inferior, or of questionable origin
3
a : an offensive or disagreeable person —used as a generalized term of abuseSynonyms
baseborn, illegitimate, misbegotten, natural, spurious, supposititious, unfatheredAntonyms
legitimateRelated Words
fatherless, motherless; nameless; adopted, orphanedNothing about half-breeds or anything like that. Maybe more half-breeds are bastards than the average in the Golarion context of humanoid races, but they're not really even related terms.
It doesn't have anything to do with half breeds in real life because there is only one species in real life. Homo sapiens. The closest you can come is to look at antique terms for "mixed race" people irl like "mulatto" (a person of mixed ancestry, black and white, or otherwise). Mulatto is not in current usage. "Mulattos of Golarian" wouldn't cut it as a title. Given the disparities in life span and the cultural differences between the actual races in a fantasy setting most, but not all I'm sure, children of mixed blood are likely to be bastards, technically speaking, whether you take that pejoratively or not. Besides, it's about time people learned to stop using the term bastard as a pejorative.
"that nice bastard in the grocery store sold me some great apples!". Wait, that would be Canadians...
I wished we talked like that. Might spice up conversation a bit. Maybe I'll bring it up at the next "all Canadians know each other" meeting. ;)
Aussies used to talk like that, and in some places still do. I'm reminded of an incident during an Ashes series, now immortalised by TV Tropes: "Which one of you bastards called this bastard a bastard?" (Warning: TV Tropes link and NSFW language.) :D
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From the title I thought this was going to about rough villains like pirates, thugs, bandits and marauders.
"Bastards of Golarion" doesn't call to mind half-elves.
Actually, half-orcs and half-elves were the first thing that came to my mind when I saw the title :-)
And I prefer "bastards" because it is a name that those called such can then use and twist to make it gain greater significance and an epithet of pride.
Half-breed, half-blood are far worse IMO because they imply that you are NOT a full person. You are only a half.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I'd point out that 'Bastards of Golarion' was floated around the boards for this kind of as far back as 2008, and I wish I could take credit for the name.* :P
So yes, it came to mind exactly for the 'half-breeds of Golarion' type book.
Besides, Bar-Sinisters of Golarion would be too confusing, and insulting to lefties.
Keep the name.
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But what about those half-elves/half-orcs that aren't actually bastards? :)
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I'm guessing this is just going to be one of those things that slides along because Paizo is American so who cares about the rest of the world.
Maybe Bastard is edgy-but-inoffensive in the States but over here in the UK it is an insult and nothing else (unless you're watching a history documentary, but they're more likely to use the term 'illegitimate child' than 'bastard').
Plenty of parents over here would be uncomfortable buying their kids Bastards of Golarion. I read my Paizo books at work and leave them on my desk but leaving Bastards of Golarion will get me some funny looks. Looks I'd rather not get.
I look forward to S!%#heads of Golarion...
Thanks for implying that anyone who disagrees with you is just "one of the people that complains just to complain". It's great that you're happy being casually dismissive of other people's opinions. That's just great.
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It really is a no-win situation for Paizo Publishing, isn't it? With the dance hall incident plenty of fans accused Paizo of catering to a very conservative audience and now we Europeans are up in arms because they've chosen to use a word we might not be 100% comfortable with. To be honest, I fear we're moving slowly but steadily into baatezu/tanar'ri territory.
At the risk of sounding insensitive, I really don't understand why using a word that might contain negative qualities is such a horrible thing. Are the words "brothel" and "bastard" really so terrible than the mere notion of having the words in a roleplaying game book is offensive?
If so, then Paizo might just have to start looking into changing a helluva lot of words and phrases for their game and setting...
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I think the truth of it is simple. You don't like it, vote with your wallets.
Most folks know me, that I'm more conservative than most of the posters here/players that I game with. I've not seen anything that has offended me enough to make me stop buying Paizo products.
If Paizo makes product that is designed to not offend anyone they can close their doors now. Because it's impossible.
Don't like it? Voice your opinion, vote with your wallet.
Just for the record: as a European, I have no problem with the word "bastard", even if I think the title sounds a bit weird or doesn't really reflect the contents. It sounds more like a title for a novel than a handbook. :)
I also have no problem with the renamed brothel, nor would I if it had not be renamed. I can understand the renaming from the viewpoint that the rulebooks are intended to be "PG13", though.
Don't like it? Voice your opinion, vote with your wallet.
Sound advice. Of course, the former has been covered quite extensively in this thread, I think, whether for or against. :)
...as a European, I have no problem with the word "bastard"...
Same here. It was a generalization based on what I've seen here and elsewhere on the subject. :)
...even if I think the title sounds a bit weird or doesn't really reflect the contents.
Interestingly enough (for me at least), I made an instant connection between the book's current title and its content. It's really quite fascinating how our perception of these things vary as wildly as they do. :)
It sounds more like a title for a novel than a handbook. :)
This I agree with. :)
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Really really looking forward to an expansion of half-orc origins beyond the usual tragedy* and some cultural roots for them to pull from. :)
*Like support for characters born from consenting human/orc couplings.
This comic is for you. :)
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There's a difference between "OMG Paizo violates my sensitivity, not gonna buy the book" and "Well some folks might be offended by the title, not my case but thought I'll discuss this". I'm the latter. I'll get the book anyway. You know that I am a godless Euro monster who had a threesome with Pope and Freddie Mercury in Berlusconi's villa, so there's little that can shift me.
The difference between "brothel" and "bastard" is that the former is not a swear word in any case AND doesn't appear on the cover, while the latter is to me, just like with GeraintElberion, a firm profanity in most cases. I've been taught the British English, I like my toast done on one side, and bastards feature in my vocabulary only when I want to inflict verbal harm. Heck, even when I write "katanas should be just bastard swords" it's a vicious attack...
So if, say, ever get kids, have them educated in English in a similar way to me, and then show them "Bastards of Golarion" I might have some explaining to do. Of course, if they bump into a "brothel" I'll happily explain that brothels are places of joy and fun and we'll go visit one once they turn 18! :P
You know that I am a godless Euro monster who had a threesome with Pope and Freddie Mercury in Berlusconi's villa, so there's little that can shift me.
[OT]
Ow. Right in my teeth.Why in all gods' name must all my people be defined by a sexuomaniac, greedy NE Gnome Order of the Cockatrice Cavalier, why, o why?!?! Where are the heroes when we need them to put him in a sanatory?!
[/OT]
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The problem there, though, is that Vic's right - we've already had a Paizo book with "Bastards" in the title, and no one seemed to flinch then. For that matter, as you yourself just pointed out, we've already got "bastard swords" in the game, and strangely no one seems bothered by those...
The difference between "brothel" and "bastard" is that the former is not a swear word in any case AND doesn't appear on the cover, while the latter is to me, just like with GeraintElberion, a firm profanity in most cases.
Point well taken. That said, as I perceive the discussion in both cases, both words are perceived as negative by a relatively large section of the fanbase. In the case of the brothel, it was deemed so negative that they wouldn't even include it on page XX in Ultimate Campaign, and my concern is that there seems to be a tendency leaning slightly toward the same issues as the demon/devil travesty of old. If that's the case, then that's a bad sign.
That said, discussion is always a good thing, and this is certainly an interesting one.
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This comic is for you. :)Really really looking forward to an expansion of half-orc origins beyond the usual tragedy* and some cultural roots for them to pull from. :)
*Like support for characters born from consenting human/orc couplings.
I can't adequately express how much I long to see that sort of thing given a completely serious treatment. :)
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You know that I am a godless Euro monster who had a threesome with Pope and Freddie Mercury in Berlusconi's villa, so there's little that can shift me.[OT]
Ow. Right in my teeth.
Why in all gods' name must all my people be defined by a sexuomaniac, greedy NE Gnome Order of the Cockatrice Cavalier, why, o why?!?! Where are the heroes when we need them to put him in a sanatory?!
[/OT]
This is your punishment for that whole "make Mediterranean our Inner Sea" idea from the previous century and everything that went down with it. And we're really being generous here, we could still be harping that OTHER gnome ... you know, the black chain shirt one. ;)
That was a shaved dwarf. ;) Plus, have compassion of our grandfathers... It's difficult to resist a Demagogue Bard pretending to be the Ultimate Oracle of Battle. ;)
The problem there, though, is that Vic's right - we've already had a Paizo book with "Bastards" in the title, and no one seemed to flinch then.
I'm not at all offended by the word, just by the inaccuracy. The title implies that humans and elves never marry each other and have children -- or, for that matter, half-elves don't marry half-elves or half-orcs, half-orcs. As if Golarion has a blanket law forbidding the solemnization of interracial marriage (or preventing half-humans from marrying at all). The word bastard in its non-pejorative sense refers to birth resulting from an unsanctioned relationship, not mixed blood.
I'm not at all offended by the word, just by the inaccuracy. The title implies that humans and elves never marry each other and have children -- or, for that matter, half-elves don't marry half-elves or half-orcs, half-orcs. As if Golarion has a blanket law forbidding the solemnization of interracial marriage (or preventing half-humans from marrying at all). The word bastard in its non-pejorative sense refers to birth resulting from an unsanctioned relationship, not mixed blood.
The problem there, though, is that Vic's right - we've already had a Paizo book with "Bastards" in the title, and no one seemed to flinch then.
Inaccurate? Maybe not in terms of how Golarion society at large sees them which would be the thrust of the title. And, as you say many would be technically "bastards" as well.
But what about those half-elves/half-orcs that aren't actually bastards? :)
Originally bastard had nothing to do with marriage. It was irregular/dubious origins. It changed due to religious reasons, and not all of us are of that religion.
The problem there, though, is that Vic's right - we've already had a Paizo book with "Bastards" in the title, and no one seemed to flinch then.I'm not at all offended by the word, just by the inaccuracy. The title implies that humans and elves never marry each other and have children -- or, for that matter, half-elves don't marry half-elves or half-orcs, half-orcs. As if Golarion has a blanket law forbidding the solemnization of interracial marriage (or preventing half-humans from marrying at all). The word bastard in its non-pejorative sense refers to birth resulting from an unsanctioned relationship, not mixed blood.
This use of bastard has nothing to do with marriage. Such a simple concept, not sure why people don't get that the word had meanings long before it was used that way.
Hel, what is an unsanctioned relationship anyway?
"illegitimate child," early 13c., from Old French bastard (11c., Modern French bâtard), "acknowledged child of a nobleman by a woman other than his wife," probably from fils de bast "packsaddle son," meaning a child conceived on an improvised bed (saddles often doubled as beds while traveling), with pejorative ending -art (see -ard). Alternative possibly is that the word is from Proto-Germanic *banstiz "barn," equally suggestive of low origin.
Not always regarded as a stigma; the Conqueror is referred to in state documents as "William the Bastard." Figurative sense of "something not pure or genuine" is late 14c.; use as a vulgar term of abuse for a man is attested from 1830. As an adjective from late 14c. Among the "bastard" words in Halliwell-Phillipps' "Dictionary of Archaic and Provincial Words" are avetrol, chance-bairn, by-blow, harecoppe, horcop, and gimbo ("a bastard's bastard").
Meaning of an illegitimate child -- as a bare fact rather than a stigma -- predates the figurative use by almost two centuries (four, if you go back to the original French).
Meaning of an illegitimate child -- as a bare fact rather than a stigma -- predates the figurative use by almost two centuries (four, if you go back to the original French)."illegitimate child," early 13c., from Old French bastard (11c., Modern French bâtard), "acknowledged child of a nobleman by a woman other than his wife," probably from fils de bast "packsaddle son," meaning a child conceived on an improvised bed (saddles often doubled as beds while traveling), with pejorative ending -art (see -ard). Alternative possibly is that the word is from Proto-Germanic *banstiz "barn," equally suggestive of low origin.
Not always regarded as a stigma; the Conqueror is referred to in state documents as "William the Bastard." Figurative sense of "something not pure or genuine" is late 14c.; use as a vulgar term of abuse for a man is attested from 1830. As an adjective from late 14c. Among the "bastard" words in Halliwell-Phillipps' "Dictionary of Archaic and Provincial Words" are avetrol, chance-bairn, by-blow, harecoppe, horcop, and gimbo ("a bastard's bastard").
That isn't the original meaning.
Irregular and dubious origins was the original. Illegitimate counts as that. Hence the proto-Germanic origin in the very link you used.
The bottom line is you may not like the word, or think it fits. Many do.
I really wish people in this world would grow up and stop complaining about everything. I swear, we live in a world of 10 year olds on a playground.
You are also insulting anyone that has had kids or relatives born out of wedlock by treating it as if it is a negative.
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The problem there, though, is that Vic's right - we've already had a Paizo book with "Bastards" in the title, and no one seemed to flinch then.I'm not at all offended by the word, just by the inaccuracy. The title implies that humans and elves never marry each other and have children -- or, for that matter, half-elves don't marry half-elves or half-orcs, half-orcs. As if Golarion has a blanket law forbidding the solemnization of interracial marriage (or preventing half-humans from marrying at all). The word bastard in its non-pejorative sense refers to birth resulting from an unsanctioned relationship, not mixed blood.
That's my main gripe, too, it implies something that is clearly wrong and negative. Half-Elves and Half-Orcs are NOT shunned in Golarion, or viewed as lesser races. They are generally accepted and liked, as I pointed out above. It also implies that most Half-Elves and Half-Orcs only come from a scandalous mating between a Human and an Elf or Orc, which is probably not the case that often anymore.
Besides, no one against it is offering an alternative. I would guess even more people would complain about halfbreeds, halfbloods, or other terms. I did offer Swirlies of Golarion, but my guess is that's a no go.
So, does anyone have a better name?